I agree that Rhonas is a strictly better Mirror entity. it's even a good creature in some matchups, like against control or death's shadow where being indestructible and making mana dorks into threat is great. It can even help attack through ensnaring bridges without the combo.
I think it's either Rhonas or balista. Both is not needed imo. Not sure yet which is best of them, need more testing..
One point about ballista that hasn't been made is its probably the best of the 3 when you don't have infinite mana. It's especially good in the mirror and against decks like affinity or infect with lots of x/1s.
That's a lot of non-combo utility for a combo wincon
I honestly don't like the reasoning "the reason you want 1 of each is because chord is x-x" guess what more is more if I run 3 duskwatch and 4 chord I still have a better % chance of having it when I combo off rather than a card that "gets it back". I'd imagine with my 4/4/3 ratio i combo t3 much more than 4/3/1 ratio builds. I just played against eldrazi tron and t3'd them both games, rallier/Ana/voice would have been putting me longer not faster wins.
One point about ballista that hasn't been made is its probably the best of the 3 when you don't have infinite mana. It's especially good in the meirror and against decks like affinity or infect with lots of x/1s.
That's a lot of non-combo utility for a combo wincon
I actually made this point earlier and agree completely. Not being a hit with coco/chord isn't a big deal to me.
Any tips for the Death's shadow matchups? They feel super difficult since they just land a big creature early and have tons of spot removal. Like, is any post-board hand without path/abrupt decay just garbage?
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Any tips for the Death's shadow matchups? They feel super difficult since they just land a big creature early and have tons of spot removal. Like, is any post-board hand without path/abrupt decay just garbage?
They don't have sweepers so throw it out as fast as you can. They also can't beat inf life so they can either try to be aggressive and kill you or wait and try to be the control player. Not easy at all but it is winnable. Grixis is mich harder than jund imo. Luckily dredge is creeping up because of death's shadow decks and I've found dredge to be favorable honestly.
Any tips for the Death's shadow matchups? They feel super difficult since they just land a big creature early and have tons of spot removal. Like, is any post-board hand without path/abrupt decay just garbage?
They don't have sweepers so throw it out as fast as you can. They also can't beat inf life so they can either try to be aggressive and kill you or wait and try to be the control player. Not easy at all but it is winnable. Grixis is mich harder than jund imo. Luckily dredge is creeping up because of death's shadow decks and I've found dredge to be favorable honestly.
I agree that grixis is much tougher. In general any deck that packs 8 mainboard turn 1 hand disruption and backs it up with fatal push and abrupt decays is gonna be tough. Throw in bolts and counters and snapcaster for recurring said bolts and counters and its even worse.
That's why I'm testing 4-6 maindeck recursion with ewit and rallier, both are quite good in either matchup.
That said, seems like a case of rock/paper/scissors in which we're the scissors and they are the rock. (Is that why BGx is called "the rock"????)
Hey guys ! I have a question on the combo Vizier + Devoted. If both are on board and I activate the Devoted's ability to untap it and my opponent Path my Devoted. Can I activate it again on the stack to go infinite ? Seem like I can since -1/-1 counter never goes on Devoted. Is there any way to disrupt combo when both are in play ? Thank in advance
I am pretty confident that our 1drops should be 8 dorks and 1 seer but by all means test what you like
You're confident with that because you run Mirror Entity, aren't you ? I run only 4 Birds + 2 Hierarchs because they're awkward with Rhonas. Pod used to run 4+3+23 lands, and the 3 Hierarch was cut in some MUs. Nowadays I always consider 4+2+22 is fine in this archetype. There's an argument for the 3rd Hierarch, far less for the 4th.
I agree that Rhonas is a strictly better Mirror entity.
It's not strictly better so to speak. But Rhonas is better in the context of the combo for the reasons that have alreay been mentionned.
I'm playing it over Ballista and I must say I dislike the situations where I have him, infinite mana, but no attacker to finish the job within the same turn. Worse when I have Rhonas in hand but no Recruiter or Chord, so my board is Vizier, Druid, Rhonas and maybe some other early drop. Not impressive ! Edit : you're right guys, infinite mana available = Druid able to attack.
I like the suggestion of Selfless Spirit MD. It's a 2/1 so it can be 4 power with Rhonas, and it can save another guy that would be pumped up to 4 power in order to keep Rhonas "activated". It also serves a better job than the 2nd Viscera Seer that I already cut. Even without Rhonas, I like it as a Spellskite #2.
All in all, Ballista has the same advantage as Seer, it can sac itself to dodge an exiling effect from the battlefield, which I like. The only downside is not being Coco-able. Chord isn't an issue because we'll always Chord into Recruiter first, then eventually draw Ballista and cast it from our hand. As cool as Rhonas is, I think Ballista is still the best finisher, but it's very early to make a conclusion. We don't even know how the God plays out in the whole bunch of possible situations.
I am pretty confident that our 1drops should be 8 dorks and 1 seer but by all means test what you like
You're confident with that because you run Mirror Entity, aren't you ? I run only 4 Birds + 2 Hierarchs because they're awkward with Rhonas. Pod used to run 4+3+23 lands, and the 3 Hierarch was cut in some MUs. Nowadays I always consider 4+2+22 is fine in this archetype. There's an argument for the 3rd Hierarch, far less for the 4th.
I agree that Rhonas is a strictly better Mirror entity.
It's not strictly better so to speak. But Rhonas is better in the context of the combo for the reasons that have alreay been mentionned.
I'm playing it over Ballista and I must say I dislike the situations where I have him, infinite mana, but no attacker to finish the job within the same turn. Worse when I have Rhonas in hand but no Recruiter or Chord, so my board is Vizier, Druid, Rhonas and maybe some other early drop. Not impressive !
I like the suggestion of Selfless Spirit MD. It's a 2/1 so it can be 4 power with Rhonas, and it can save another guy that would be pumped up to 4 power in order to keep Rhonas "activated". It also serves a better job than the 2nd Viscera Seer that I already cut. Even without Rhonas, I like it as a Spellskite #2.
All in all, Ballista has the same advantage as Seer, it can sac itself to dodge an exiling effect from the battlefield, which I like. The only downside is not being Coco-able. Chord isn't an issue because we'll always Chord into Recruiter first, then eventually draw Ballista and cast it from our hand. As cool as Rhonas is, I think Ballista is still the best finisher, but it's very early to make a conclusion. We don't even know how the God plays out in the whole bunch of possible situations.
when you have infinite mana you already have Devoted Druid as an attacker, it is not a defender like Wall
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
As said, if you have infinite mana, you can attack with druid. I think the cases where they dont disrupt the combo, you draw your library, play half your deck, attack with a million power druid, and THEN they fatal push it are super rare and corner case. It can even attack through a bridge.
Rhonas was great in testing against death's shadow. It can usually block it as long as you keep up 3 mana and another creature, and threatens to win on the swingback. Ballista is bad against death's shadow as it just chumps, or gets pushed and doesn't kill anything, just grows their shadow.
Balista is better against aggro, while Rhonas is better against controlish decks. But being coco and chordaable is a big + for Rhonas. I won by chording for Rhonas when no other creature would win the game against death's shadow.
For people saying death's shadow is a hard matchup, you probably cut your voices? I am currently running 4 druids, 3 vizier, and still have 2 voice. Only infinite mana sinks atm is Rhonas and Duskwatch. I feel going wide and tall is enough. I dropped the angel combo for now and now have no misses on coco. Voices have been performing so extremely well that I will keep them.
What does an opponent do if you have voice + Rhonas out? Take 9? Chump? Kill voice and give you 2 tokens? It's difficult to deal with for some decks.
Will test more, as something like 30 games isnt enough, but it's very promising.
Hi, what do you think of using Bloodrite Invoker instead of ballista? It can also come into play with collective company.
The upside of Abzan Company over other combo decks is that our combos are built out of cards that are playable (not always great, but playable) on their own merits. Bloodrite invoker is a 3/1 for three with an irrelevant text box if you don't have infinite mana, and that's just lousy.
As said, if you have infinite mana, you can attack with druid. I think the cases where they dont disrupt the combo, you draw your library, play half your deck, attack with a million power druid, and THEN they fatal push it are super rare and corner case. It can even attack through a bridge.
Rhonas was great in testing against death's shadow. It can usually block it as long as you keep up 3 mana and another creature, and threatens to win on the swingback. Ballista is bad against death's shadow as it just chumps, or gets pushed and doesn't kill anything, just grows their shadow.
Balista is better against aggro, while Rhonas is better against controlish decks. But being coco and chordaable is a big + for Rhonas. I won by chording for Rhonas when no other creature would win the game against death's shadow.
For people saying death's shadow is a hard matchup, you probably cut your voices? I am currently running 4 druids, 3 vizier, and still have 2 voice. Only infinite mana sinks atm is Rhonas and Duskwatch. I feel going wide and tall is enough. I dropped the angel combo for now and now have no misses on coco. Voices have been performing so extremely well that I will keep them.
What does an opponent do if you have voice + Rhonas out? Take 9? Chump? Kill voice and give you 2 tokens? It's difficult to deal with for some decks.
Will test more, as something like 30 games isnt enough, but it's very promising.
2 voices sure up the ds matchups lol no. They are good there yes but a 2 of is not the end all be all. I played saheeli evolution running 4 voice 3 finks with a bunch of blink creatures and it still wasn't a good matchup until I added the reflector mages. They still get to rip your hand apart as well as just keep swinging with fatties and hold removal for the combo pieces that count or your 2 voices. Ds is still a hard match even with voices. Balista def can still do work vs ds heck it can just straight kill them. Will it happen often probably not but you can't say it's a dead card in the matchup.
Seeing I have a lot of 2CC play so I cut the 1CC mana dorks.
Mirror Entity as a persudo Gavony Township if I can't dig out the combo.
Walking Ballista as a Recruiter target if attacking is not an option.
Selfless Spirit for combo protection?
Side note: I probably should just splash black for maybe 1-2 viscera seer.
What I like about this is we don't need care about graveyard hate to combo off, but as someone already pointed out if we already have infinite Green mana we can tutor up a reclamation sage or any creature answer with Recruiter.
I've found fiend hunter to be really mediocre.. The matchups I want it in are the ones where they have so much cheap removal to kill it and it becomes a liability. It's good in the mirror though.
As for voice, it has been extremely good for me lately. Against death's shadow and all kinds of control decks to combat deaths shadow. It blocks well (we have lost some blocking ability), and it protects you when trying to go for the combo, coco, or anything,by giving you free big creatures if they are forced to interact to stop you. I understand going to 3, I just don't know how I'd find room.
I still think the 1 of anafenza is important, so you can infinite bolster after gaining infinite life, so you can actually kill people after assembling the "old" combo.
And once again, I feel like green god and ballista are good in totally opposite matchups. Do you want to ping x/1's or be resilient to removal/boardwipes?
Well, I think a situation in which the attacking creature gets removed afterngoing infinite is very narrow. Either they intervent before that happens or they do not have removal. Displacer, ok...
I had some situations in which Rhonas came out of coco. He always puts pressure on the board even if you just have dorks. Another upside of him is, that you do not need to play Duskwatch Recruiter as you can Chord Rhonas. I don't like Recruiter very much as a not in combo creature. He is slow and dies easily without getting any value out of him.
That said Rhonas as finisher gives you one more creature spot and +1 coco hit.
In 90% I go in the combo via Chord. Rhonas always won (I played around 20 games). Very classic situation: T2 Druid, T3 Chord into Vizier, inf mana, Witness on Chord, Chord Rhonas, attack with Druid.
Well, if people start playing TurboFog my opinion may change
Have you ran into the spot where coco hits dork and god and then god gets path'd and you're out your wincon before you can use it? I don't think that's too crazy of a scenario.
Not if you played Druid the turn you combo off. This is what I'm talking about when I say Rhonas may still leave a turn to your opponent. Ballista can kill by T3 even though Druid etb that turn. Edit : infinite mana = Druid can attack.
Well, against Tron i.e. I really like to finish asap. I think that 1 spot in the MD is reasonable.
^this. All combo decks force a race and being able to kill asap is a strength in the format.
Btw Ballista is better than Rhonas against Ad Nauseam because Ballista can kill through Phyrexian Unlife and go through one copy of Angel's Grace.
Against Death's Shadow, I see Glissa, the Traitor and Chameleon Colossus as good SB options.
Glissa dodges Tarfire and non-revolted Fatal Push and wins despite Temur Battle Rage. It fights Bant Eldrazi pretty well too (even though it's more of a Nic Fit SB tech in Legacy). It can also recur Ballista in corner-case scenarios.
Colossus can profit the infinite mana combo and is beast against Jund and Grixis, which I believe are unfavorable MUs.
On this Rhonas vs. Walking Ballista debate,there are too many scenarios where Rhonas can't end the game to make that worth having one additional Coco hit. Examples: Ensnaring Bridge, Ad Nauseam, Angel's grace ( Ballista kills them the next turn). Not to mention that Ballista is by no means a bad card on its own. Ask Standard players!
I think it's either Rhonas or balista. Both is not needed imo. Not sure yet which is best of them, need more testing..
That's a lot of non-combo utility for a combo wincon
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
I actually made this point earlier and agree completely. Not being a hit with coco/chord isn't a big deal to me.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
They don't have sweepers so throw it out as fast as you can. They also can't beat inf life so they can either try to be aggressive and kill you or wait and try to be the control player. Not easy at all but it is winnable. Grixis is mich harder than jund imo. Luckily dredge is creeping up because of death's shadow decks and I've found dredge to be favorable honestly.
I agree that grixis is much tougher. In general any deck that packs 8 mainboard turn 1 hand disruption and backs it up with fatal push and abrupt decays is gonna be tough. Throw in bolts and counters and snapcaster for recurring said bolts and counters and its even worse.
That's why I'm testing 4-6 maindeck recursion with ewit and rallier, both are quite good in either matchup.
That said, seems like a case of rock/paper/scissors in which we're the scissors and they are the rock. (Is that why BGx is called "the rock"????)
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
You're confident with that because you run Mirror Entity, aren't you ? I run only 4 Birds + 2 Hierarchs because they're awkward with Rhonas. Pod used to run 4+3+23 lands, and the 3 Hierarch was cut in some MUs. Nowadays I always consider 4+2+22 is fine in this archetype. There's an argument for the 3rd Hierarch, far less for the 4th.
It's not strictly better so to speak. But Rhonas is better in the context of the combo for the reasons that have alreay been mentionned.
I'm playing it over Ballista and I must say I dislike the situations where I have him, infinite mana,
but no attacker to finish the job within the same turn. Worse when I have Rhonas in hand but no Recruiter or Chord, so my board is Vizier, Druid, Rhonas and maybe some other early drop. Not impressive !Edit : you're right guys, infinite mana available = Druid able to attack.
I like the suggestion of Selfless Spirit MD. It's a 2/1 so it can be 4 power with Rhonas, and it can save another guy that would be pumped up to 4 power in order to keep Rhonas "activated". It also serves a better job than the 2nd Viscera Seer that I already cut. Even without Rhonas, I like it as a Spellskite #2.
All in all, Ballista has the same advantage as Seer, it can sac itself to dodge an exiling effect from the battlefield, which I like. The only downside is not being Coco-able. Chord isn't an issue because we'll always Chord into Recruiter first, then eventually draw Ballista and cast it from our hand. As cool as Rhonas is, I think Ballista is still the best finisher, but it's very early to make a conclusion. We don't even know how the God plays out in the whole bunch of possible situations.
when you have infinite mana you already have Devoted Druid as an attacker, it is not a defender like Wall
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
Rhonas was great in testing against death's shadow. It can usually block it as long as you keep up 3 mana and another creature, and threatens to win on the swingback. Ballista is bad against death's shadow as it just chumps, or gets pushed and doesn't kill anything, just grows their shadow.
Balista is better against aggro, while Rhonas is better against controlish decks. But being coco and chordaable is a big + for Rhonas. I won by chording for Rhonas when no other creature would win the game against death's shadow.
For people saying death's shadow is a hard matchup, you probably cut your voices? I am currently running 4 druids, 3 vizier, and still have 2 voice. Only infinite mana sinks atm is Rhonas and Duskwatch. I feel going wide and tall is enough. I dropped the angel combo for now and now have no misses on coco. Voices have been performing so extremely well that I will keep them.
What does an opponent do if you have voice + Rhonas out? Take 9? Chump? Kill voice and give you 2 tokens? It's difficult to deal with for some decks.
Will test more, as something like 30 games isnt enough, but it's very promising.
Here is my current version. I just liked the druid combo so much that I just kept adding more untill I had 4..
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/abzan-company-devoted-rallier-20/
The upside of Abzan Company over other combo decks is that our combos are built out of cards that are playable (not always great, but playable) on their own merits. Bloodrite invoker is a 3/1 for three with an irrelevant text box if you don't have infinite mana, and that's just lousy.
2 voices sure up the ds matchups lol no. They are good there yes but a 2 of is not the end all be all. I played saheeli evolution running 4 voice 3 finks with a bunch of blink creatures and it still wasn't a good matchup until I added the reflector mages. They still get to rip your hand apart as well as just keep swinging with fatties and hold removal for the combo pieces that count or your 2 voices. Ds is still a hard match even with voices. Balista def can still do work vs ds heck it can just straight kill them. Will it happen often probably not but you can't say it's a dead card in the matchup.
1 Walking Ballista
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Devoted Druid
1 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Selfless Spirit
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Vizier of Remedies
4 Voice of Resurgence
2 Eternal Witness
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Mirror Entity
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
Lands (22)
4 Forest
3 Gavony Township
4 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
4 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
Some reasoning behind card choices,
Seeing I have a lot of 2CC play so I cut the 1CC mana dorks.
Mirror Entity as a persudo Gavony Township if I can't dig out the combo.
Walking Ballista as a Recruiter target if attacking is not an option.
Selfless Spirit for combo protection?
Side note: I probably should just splash black for maybe 1-2 viscera seer.
What I like about this is we don't need care about graveyard hate to combo off, but as someone already pointed out if we already have infinite Green mana we can tutor up a reclamation sage or any creature answer with Recruiter.
As for voice, it has been extremely good for me lately. Against death's shadow and all kinds of control decks to combat deaths shadow. It blocks well (we have lost some blocking ability), and it protects you when trying to go for the combo, coco, or anything,by giving you free big creatures if they are forced to interact to stop you. I understand going to 3, I just don't know how I'd find room.
I still think the 1 of anafenza is important, so you can infinite bolster after gaining infinite life, so you can actually kill people after assembling the "old" combo.
And once again, I feel like green god and ballista are good in totally opposite matchups. Do you want to ping x/1's or be resilient to removal/boardwipes?
Have you ran into the spot where coco hits dork and god and then god gets path'd and you're out your wincon before you can use it? I don't think that's too crazy of a scenario.
Not if you played Druid the turn you combo off. This is what I'm talking about when I say Rhonas may still leave a turn to your opponent. Ballista can kill by T3 even though Druid etb that turn.Edit : infinite mana = Druid can attack.
^this. All combo decks force a race and being able to kill asap is a strength in the format.
Btw Ballista is better than Rhonas against Ad Nauseam because Ballista can kill through Phyrexian Unlife and go through one copy of Angel's Grace.
Against Death's Shadow, I see Glissa, the Traitor and Chameleon Colossus as good SB options.
Glissa dodges Tarfire and non-revolted Fatal Push and wins despite Temur Battle Rage. It fights Bant Eldrazi pretty well too (even though it's more of a Nic Fit SB tech in Legacy). It can also recur Ballista in corner-case scenarios.
Colossus can profit the infinite mana combo and is beast against Jund and Grixis, which I believe are unfavorable MUs.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB