Agreed, and I don't think Thought Scours or, god forbid, Ancestral Visions are cuts you can make. Corey Burkhart has this deck saved as "Grixis Ancestral Vision control" on MTGO for a reason. Our motto is mana efficiency; we like our 1 mana 3x1 and 1 mana 4/5s. Maybe other takes on the deck like the older iterations that played Liliana of the Veil and a more mid-rangey strategy can do without it, but not the current one.
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UWGBant EldraziUWG Decided I don't like Todd Stevens decks.
I removed Ancestral visions from the control version. I didn't like it in any way felt like i was muligan on the spot and if i drew it i became very annoyed with it since generally after turn 1 i wanted to stuff on curve. After cutting it from 4 to 3 then 3 to 2 which i finally cut it. I found the mix of 4 serum visions, 4 thought scour, 2 baby jace, 3 tasigur, and 3 cryptic command to be perfect amount of card draw.
On the sidenote for the reason i came here. Im having trouble finding good cards for a dredge matchup. I currently have mb 1 anger of the gods, sb i have 1 anger of the gods, 1 rakdos charm, 1 crypt incursion, 2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet.
Most decks i play against commonly are
UG Infect, Mono Green Infect, Mono Red Goblins, BW Tokens, GR Tron, Dredge, Skred Red, Affinity, RW Pillowforts Control, Jeskai Delver, Grixis Delver, Esper Delver, UR Delver, Naya Zoo, Naya Burn, Boros Burn, Mono White Soul Sister.
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Standard: No Time
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
On the sidenote for the reason i came here. Im having trouble finding good cards for a dredge matchup. I currently have mb 1 anger of the gods, sb i have 1 anger of the gods, 1 rakdos charm, 1 crypt incursion, 2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet.
Anger of the Gods is usually enough. Sometimes you won't draw it but it's an easy deck to Cryptic until you find it. They're also weak to little pieces of disruption here and there.
The hate you described should be more than enough.
I think Baby Jace sucks but some people are very sold on the card.
On the sidenote for the reason i came here. Im having trouble finding good cards for a dredge matchup. I currently have mb 1 anger of the gods, sb i have 1 anger of the gods, 1 rakdos charm, 1 crypt incursion, 2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet.
Anger of the Gods is usually enough. Sometimes you won't draw it but it's an easy deck to Cryptic until you find it. They're also weak to little pieces of disruption here and there.
The hate you described should be more than enough.
I think Baby Jace sucks but some people are very sold on the card.
Any advice for the matchup? I might just being playing it badly.
Baby jace is a odd card. I have a love hate relationship with it currently. When it's good i feel as if im so far ahead its ridiculous, but when its bad its generally a good chump blocker. I have mostly been impressed with it though i have considered i might trade it out for a couple things in the ice as i really do like have 2 drop creature a bit more consistently.
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Standard: No Time
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
Removing Ancestral doesnt make you have no card in hand after wasting all of them to answer what your opponent is doing? Ancestral is bad when u draw multiple copies of it in a very short period of time.For example if u keep a normal hand with a mix of counters and removals and after a turn or 2 u draw an Ancestral its still ok...but if u draw 2-4 its prety bad cause u probably wont have time to get value out of it.By removing Ancestral u lose a lot from your grindy mus and u lose your best card vs decks that wreck your hand
Baby jace just makes their removal active.Moreover i think that after your turn 1 which u usally play scoure ancestral or serum u need to start answering you opponent things.
Surgical is the best way to desimate them and its has uses in other mus
Kalitas is a sweet card but his strong enouph when u play vs voice and finks decks
I still wont play it. The matchups were good against we dont need it ancestral visions becomes a win more card. The bad matchups we have im glad i removed the card for actual answers which helped. Ancestral visions is just a win more card that blinds people with card advantage. Tons of people argue it helps against BG/x decks, but we were already favored in those matchups to begin with imho. I have won against UR/x decks with 4 ancestral visions more often then not because truthfully while the card is powerful its not the thing that out this deck over the top. What pushed grixis into a tiered deck was Tasigur and K-command. Grixis was tier 1 before ancestral visions and i will personally not play a mediocre card thats just a win more. All of your scenarios where drawning multiples automatically puts you 4 turns behind. If you drew anything else Serum Visions, K-command, Cryptic, removal, counter gives you a chance.
4 snapcaster mage, 3 Tasigur, 2 creeping tarpit removal was already live long before i decided to play 2 baby jace. Most decks other then grixis and jund start having a steep drop off for removal. Most removal commonly used is 4 bolts, 2-4 terminates, 2-4 push, 1-2 abrupt decay, 1-2 maelstrom pusle, 1-3 2cmc black removal, 2-4 Lightning Helix, 4 path, 1-2 dismember, 1 beast within. Most removal in decks that are not Grixis, Jund, Junk and to some extent Jeskai drops down to about 5 or 2 with some exceptions. Please dont tell me 2 creatures alone turn on all the removal when a standard grixis control list has 5 creatures 2 manlands. Personally i love a 2nd turn creature jace or tasigur both are highly useful drops on that turn. Some days i dont play them till late in the game though depending on the matchup.
Ya was hoping to avoid using it tbh guess ill have to put them in the SB after all.
I have had no problems with him against voice or finks decks. He was mostly a way to deal with goblins in our meta and he just fit in well. Ill probably be dropping him for surgical extractions though since i prefer echoing truth in more matchups.
Sorry if it comes across as being rude thats not my intention.
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Standard: No Time
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
I guess I can understand cutting Ancestral if you know your meta 100%. Personally I wouldn't sleeve this deck up with less than 4 in the main. Your points are valid, but AV is part of what makes this deck tick. Resolving an Ancestral, in most matchups, will put the nail in the coffin so to speak.
Surgical is such a great card in our sideboard. Not only does it murder Dredge, it can also combat almost every unfair strategy in Modern. I won't leave my house without at least 2 in my SB.
AV is very much a risk vs reward decision. Corey Burkhart stands by Reward > Risk. But everyone's playing in their own different meta. Overall, I love what AV does and personally I agree with Corey's stand. AV doesn't just shore up bad match ups. It seals deals after you've exhausted your hand trading 1 for 1 against aggro. It puts you over other U control decks. Indeed, the player who resolves an AV first is likely to win any U control match up, that's how powerful it is.
In terms of dealing with AV's short term constraints, there are ways to mitigate this. You can loot it away with Lighthouse or JVP, if JVP is your thing. You can convert it into removal or hand attack with Collective Brutality. To enjoy the long term plan AV provides and also deal with aggro decks, Collective Brutality works really well.
I agree multiple AV in the hand can feel bad. But then so does multiple Tasigur. These cards provide too much benefit to not see in a midst of the game, and thats why we have that redundancy. Because we want to make sure we see one fairly early, even if we don't want to see multiple.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I don't agree with As Foretold being compared with Divination (what the heck?) but I also don't feel like it has a place in our existing shell.
As Foretold has no impact on the board itself, and it needs to be built around to make it worthwhile. What sort of spells would be best abused with As Foretold? AV is an easy one, and we can go on to look at the other suspend cards. We don't have Restore Balance but we have Living End. That would require a huge change in the deck. Turn 3 As Foretold, wipe the board could be useful against aggro, but it would also mean you shouldn't be killing anything beforehand, and also, lategame Living ends would be awkward unless you also pack a way to empty the opponent's graveyard.
Interestingly the card doesn't only benefit spells from the HAND, which matters because this implies anything you snap, -3 with JVP, reveal with Abbot of Keral Keep or KLD Chandra, can be cast for free as long as you have enough time counters.
In many ways this is kind of like Aether Vial but basically any spell AND also twice each "turn" (yours and opponent's). Just like merfolk, we'll be able to average more actions per turn thanks to this cheating of mana. The question is, what do we want to cheat with?
You can't cast Snapcaster'd cards for free with As Foretold. Alternate costs and all that.
Played versus a list running As Foretold. The card is backbreaking if allowed to tick up. Lets you Ancestral Vision, cantrip, or cast removal for free early on and leave mana open for counterspells. Late game, free Cryptic Commands are sweet.
Obviously not very effective versus decks that win on turn 3 or 4 though.
Right, good catch. The other methods will still work because they don't work via alternate cost tho. Well, it lends weight to my point that the existing shell doesn't work with AF. AF demands to be built around, and the build is going to be something quite different.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I don't agree with As Foretold being compared with Divination (what the heck?) but I also don't feel like it has a place in our existing shell.
As Foretold has no impact on the board itself, and it needs to be built around to make it worthwhile. What sort of spells would be best abused with As Foretold? AV is an easy one, and we can go on to look at the other suspend cards. We don't have Restore Balance but we have Living End. That would require a huge change in the deck. Turn 3 As Foretold, wipe the board could be useful against aggro, but it would also mean you shouldn't be killing anything beforehand, and also, lategame Living ends would be awkward unless you also pack a way to empty the opponent's graveyard.
Interestingly the card doesn't only benefit spells from the HAND, which matters because this implies anything you snap, -3 with JVP, reveal with Abbot of Keral Keep or KLD Chandra, can be cast for free as long as you have enough time counters.
In many ways this is kind of like Aether Vial but basically any spell AND also twice each "turn" (yours and opponent's). Just like merfolk, we'll be able to average more actions per turn thanks to this cheating of mana. The question is, what do we want to cheat with?
The existing grixis shell clearly isn't good enough in this new meta as this deck has became largely irrelevant. The existing list needs to evolve to stay relevant.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Irrelevant?why u think is that?You have ok mus vs the field expet burn tron and dredge..expect that i think you are ok even in game 1
Clearly this deck isn't since it has dropped to tier 3 and everyone still wants to jam Corey's exact 75. The same thing happened when it fell to tier 3 and everyone still only played Chapin's list rather than innovating.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Irrelevant?why u think is that?You have ok mus vs the field expet burn tron and dredge..expect that i think you are ok even in game 1
Clearly this deck isn't since it has dropped to tier 3 and everyone still wants to jam Corey's exact 75. The same thing happened when it fell to tier 3 and everyone still only played Chapin's list rather than innovating.
Maybe people are still happy with the list and it works for them? I wouldn't know because I don't play that list. The fact is a deck can't top 8 big tournaments if good magic players are not picking the deck up and playing it at high level.
Not that I would put much weight on GPs or anything. Those are more random results than anything. 5-0 league result frequency is the most telling factor. If a deck doesn't have good enough win % against the field it gets weaved out pretty fast because no one likes losing tix. I'm playing the deck on MTGO again, hopefully I can get some results posted for this deck.
Irrelevant?why u think is that?You have ok mus vs the field expet burn tron and dredge..expect that i think you are ok even in game 1
Clearly this deck isn't since it has dropped to tier 3 and everyone still wants to jam Corey's exact 75. The same thing happened when it fell to tier 3 and everyone still only played Chapin's list rather than innovating.
Maybe people are still happy with the list and it works for them? I wouldn't know because I don't play that list. The fact is a deck can't top 8 big tournaments if good magic players are not picking the deck up and playing it at high level.
Not that I would put much weight on GPs or anything. Those are more random results than anything. 5-0 league result frequency is the most telling factor. If a deck doesn't have good enough win % against the field it gets weaved out pretty fast because no one likes losing tix. I'm playing the deck on MTGO again, hopefully I can get some results posted for this deck.
Are you thinking of streaming? If yes, tell us your channel
Also, do you know any other Grixis Streamers?
Not really, I'm not really comfortable with the idea of talking in English about my plays. I have Twitch open pretty often but I can't remember one streamer playing with Grixis.
UWGBant EldraziUWGDecided I don't like Todd Stevens decks.UBRGrixis ControlUBR
UUUAnd anything that plays 4x Cryptic CommandUUU
On the sidenote for the reason i came here. Im having trouble finding good cards for a dredge matchup. I currently have mb 1 anger of the gods, sb i have 1 anger of the gods, 1 rakdos charm, 1 crypt incursion, 2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet.
Most decks i play against commonly are
UG Infect, Mono Green Infect, Mono Red Goblins, BW Tokens, GR Tron, Dredge, Skred Red, Affinity, RW Pillowforts Control, Jeskai Delver, Grixis Delver, Esper Delver, UR Delver, Naya Zoo, Naya Burn, Boros Burn, Mono White Soul Sister.
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
Anger of the Gods is usually enough. Sometimes you won't draw it but it's an easy deck to Cryptic until you find it. They're also weak to little pieces of disruption here and there.
The hate you described should be more than enough.
I think Baby Jace sucks but some people are very sold on the card.
Any advice for the matchup? I might just being playing it badly.
Baby jace is a odd card. I have a love hate relationship with it currently. When it's good i feel as if im so far ahead its ridiculous, but when its bad its generally a good chump blocker. I have mostly been impressed with it though i have considered i might trade it out for a couple things in the ice as i really do like have 2 drop creature a bit more consistently.
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
I still wont play it. The matchups were good against we dont need it ancestral visions becomes a win more card. The bad matchups we have im glad i removed the card for actual answers which helped. Ancestral visions is just a win more card that blinds people with card advantage. Tons of people argue it helps against BG/x decks, but we were already favored in those matchups to begin with imho. I have won against UR/x decks with 4 ancestral visions more often then not because truthfully while the card is powerful its not the thing that out this deck over the top. What pushed grixis into a tiered deck was Tasigur and K-command. Grixis was tier 1 before ancestral visions and i will personally not play a mediocre card thats just a win more. All of your scenarios where drawning multiples automatically puts you 4 turns behind. If you drew anything else Serum Visions, K-command, Cryptic, removal, counter gives you a chance.
4 snapcaster mage, 3 Tasigur, 2 creeping tarpit removal was already live long before i decided to play 2 baby jace. Most decks other then grixis and jund start having a steep drop off for removal. Most removal commonly used is 4 bolts, 2-4 terminates, 2-4 push, 1-2 abrupt decay, 1-2 maelstrom pusle, 1-3 2cmc black removal, 2-4 Lightning Helix, 4 path, 1-2 dismember, 1 beast within. Most removal in decks that are not Grixis, Jund, Junk and to some extent Jeskai drops down to about 5 or 2 with some exceptions. Please dont tell me 2 creatures alone turn on all the removal when a standard grixis control list has 5 creatures 2 manlands. Personally i love a 2nd turn creature jace or tasigur both are highly useful drops on that turn. Some days i dont play them till late in the game though depending on the matchup.
Ya was hoping to avoid using it tbh guess ill have to put them in the SB after all.
I have had no problems with him against voice or finks decks. He was mostly a way to deal with goblins in our meta and he just fit in well. Ill probably be dropping him for surgical extractions though since i prefer echoing truth in more matchups.
Sorry if it comes across as being rude thats not my intention.
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
Surgical is such a great card in our sideboard. Not only does it murder Dredge, it can also combat almost every unfair strategy in Modern. I won't leave my house without at least 2 in my SB.
BGX Midrange
URX Control
In terms of dealing with AV's short term constraints, there are ways to mitigate this. You can loot it away with Lighthouse or JVP, if JVP is your thing. You can convert it into removal or hand attack with Collective Brutality. To enjoy the long term plan AV provides and also deal with aggro decks, Collective Brutality works really well.
I agree multiple AV in the hand can feel bad. But then so does multiple Tasigur. These cards provide too much benefit to not see in a midst of the game, and thats why we have that redundancy. Because we want to make sure we see one fairly early, even if we don't want to see multiple.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
2 Ancestral Vision
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Terminate
1 Fatal Push
3 Kolaghan's Command
2 Remand
2 Mana Leak
3 Cryptic Command
2 Spell Snare
1 Countersquall
1 Swamp
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Mountain
1 Spirebluff Canal
1 Blood Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Dispel
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Fatal Push
1 Countersquall
1 Duress
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Damnation
Youtube Channel
UWGBant EldraziUWGDecided I don't like Todd Stevens decks.UBRGrixis ControlUBR
UUUAnd anything that plays 4x Cryptic CommandUUU
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
As Foretold + AV = Divination. I think I pass.
Youtube Channel
As Foretold has no impact on the board itself, and it needs to be built around to make it worthwhile. What sort of spells would be best abused with As Foretold? AV is an easy one, and we can go on to look at the other suspend cards. We don't have Restore Balance but we have Living End. That would require a huge change in the deck. Turn 3 As Foretold, wipe the board could be useful against aggro, but it would also mean you shouldn't be killing anything beforehand, and also, lategame Living ends would be awkward unless you also pack a way to empty the opponent's graveyard.
Interestingly the card doesn't only benefit spells from the HAND, which matters because this implies anything
you snap, -3 with JVP, reveal with Abbot of Keral Keep or KLD Chandra, can be cast for free as long as you have enough time counters.In many ways this is kind of like Aether Vial but basically any spell AND also twice each "turn" (yours and opponent's). Just like merfolk, we'll be able to average more actions per turn thanks to this cheating of mana. The question is, what do we want to cheat with?
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Played versus a list running As Foretold. The card is backbreaking if allowed to tick up. Lets you Ancestral Vision, cantrip, or cast removal for free early on and leave mana open for counterspells. Late game, free Cryptic Commands are sweet.
Obviously not very effective versus decks that win on turn 3 or 4 though.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
The existing grixis shell clearly isn't good enough in this new meta as this deck has became largely irrelevant. The existing list needs to evolve to stay relevant.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Clearly this deck isn't since it has dropped to tier 3 and everyone still wants to jam Corey's exact 75. The same thing happened when it fell to tier 3 and everyone still only played Chapin's list rather than innovating.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Maybe people are still happy with the list and it works for them? I wouldn't know because I don't play that list. The fact is a deck can't top 8 big tournaments if good magic players are not picking the deck up and playing it at high level.
Not that I would put much weight on GPs or anything. Those are more random results than anything. 5-0 league result frequency is the most telling factor. If a deck doesn't have good enough win % against the field it gets weaved out pretty fast because no one likes losing tix. I'm playing the deck on MTGO again, hopefully I can get some results posted for this deck.
Youtube Channel
Not really, I'm not really comfortable with the idea of talking in English about my plays. I have Twitch open pretty often but I can't remember one streamer playing with Grixis.
Youtube Channel