All the cards you listed for Slay could also be killed for 1 cmc with push except for prime which you're in a horrible position at that point and most likely to get burned out by valakut triggers. I always side out terminates against valakut for that reason, at best it's a bandaid solution but you're still very likely dead really soon.
And electrolyze is not better than bolt at all. There's at reason almost no decks run electrolyze versus every deck that's running red having the full playset of bolts. It all comes down to mana efficiency and for 3 mana electrolyze doesn't really do enough especially in this meta. If you have a bunch of x/1s running around then maybe but that's meta specific not overall.
Edit: as for Thoughtseize, discard is at its strongest in the first few turns and an abysmal top deck later on. Doesn't matter if you can cycle through and guarantee you find it by turn 5 or 6 since by then it's usually too late to grab what you wanted to stop
You must not like drawing cards. Cantripping off of spells that impact the board is about velocity without having to lose CA.
Thoughtseize will in fact be a bad topdeck -- however, if someone has previously resolved a Karn then drawing a Cryptic or a Snap probably wouldn't matter either.
Obviously, Slay literally could be anything else in the SB but against Green decks I am 1. looking for more Terminates for Finks, Knight, Baloth, Thragtusk and 2. looking to applying CA pressure without having to take a turn off from killing their stuff. Cantrips over CA engines like AV play a fundamental role in this deck which is to keep a full grip of cards while your opponent tries to slip an appropriate threat through. You don't take turns off and you don't let the board build up.
3cmc also requires Revolt -- so there are threats that I listed that Push doesn't hit 100% of the time. Push is fine but not "UR NOT RUNNING 4 PUSHES WHAT IS WRONG WITH U" level. I'm happy with two. Any outside of that and you need to 1. turn on Revolt consistently and 2. realize the scope of the card will let 5 and 6 mana idiots through.
A control player dismissing Electrolyze? What odd times we live in. Certainly there are metas where it's bad but it is rather mana efficient for it's flexibility and replacement effect.
Eh, I'm not a fan of Electrolyze either. Kolaghan's Command does a lot of the same thing and can be much more of a blowout. It's just not impactful enough lately.
Edit: I can understand wanting to bring a new perspective on a deck, but I feel like the reasoning provided so far isn't very convincing. The deck is already incredibly powerful in the late game. I don't see why we need to focus even more on the late game in favor of taking out our early game plays.
I am disappointed by the latest posts on this thread. It's as if people are following a dogma for what grixis should and shouldn't try to do. There is no one truly correct way to build this deck. Everything depends on the context.
Just because Corey doesn't play Thoughtseize or Electrolyze does in no way make them bad or unnecessary. Playing "just" one of any particular card can also be the best decision. With a deck that is as dense with card draw and self mill as this deck, drawing into multiples of a card that makes you lose life is a very real liability. I used to play one Thoughtseize in my SB for the longest time, but would have never even considered a second one.
I'm not very high on Slay myself because it's a little too narrow for my tastes, and the mana investment makes the otherwise great 2-for-1 less exciting. However I believe it is definitely an addition that improves some MUs.
I think I should bring up a point I have made earlier: AV is a difficult card to evaluate because it's a card that makes itself look good in a way. Drawing AV in your opener makes your hand effectively a mulligan until the turn it resolves, and so it puts you in a spot where you end up needing the AV to survive in the game more often than not.
As Lugger said, this deck crushed Jund before the unbanning of AV, which why I have always questioned the cards purpose in this deck. The only times I regret not playing AV is in the mirror match, and even then it's not swinging the game that hard in my opponents' favor. I have my Remands to compensate.
Eh, I'm not a fan of Electrolyze either. Kolaghan's Command does a lot of the same thing and can be much more of a blowout. It's just not impactful enough lately.
Yeah, I totally get this.
Electrolyze has a role that is very real in control decks, perhaps most seen to be useful as a thought experiment as to why cantripping while impacting the board is good. KCommand is better at 3 simply because we're the best Snapcaster deck in modern by a mile. For everytime you cast a KCommand without a Snap in the yard there's equivalently one where you snag the snap and chain the 2 for 1s for the rest of the game. I cut down to 2 KCommands a few months after Chapin's big finish and it ended up being 100% incorrect. KCommand + Snapcaster Mage is fundamentally the engine of this deck. 3 commands ensures that you see 1 and can loop an early snap. Obviously, Cryptic Command + Snapcaster Mage is a similar engine but that engine's mana intensity makes it sort of an unreasonable proposal.
Anyway, I take breaks from Grixis and will be glad to hop back on -- I get distracted by green midrange strategies.
I've been playing a list sort of similar to that for a few months, now. List.
I don't like Cryptic in the Jace-heavy lists, and I think that if you're going to be playing IoK, you really should have 3-4 to make sure you have it in the early turns, when it's important.
Article on Modern Nexus by Trevor Holmes today on Grixis Control. Link
Thoughts? Some unusual inclusions in his list, like IoK and Flip Jace, but he makes some interesting points in favor of their inclusion.
I've been following Trevor's articles on Grixis since the beginning and I have to say that I rarely find myself to agree with him. This time is no exception.
I play all grixis lists in kind of a rotation system (control/midrange/cruel) because I like them all, but this type of merging lists together leads nowhere.
In a draw-go style list that is Corey's the split (2/2) of sorcery speed "threats", IoK and Baby Jace, just doesn't make the cut. 2 IoK won't be often enough in your starting hand to make a difference resulting in occasional bad top decks which could had been avoided. The 2 Jace's just enable your opponents removal early on, leaving you tapped out on T2, where you don't want to be. If you choose to play him way later it will either indeed end up enabling a dead cards in your opponents hand or clogging your hand for several turns. He is not an immediate threat as he needs a turn to flip and as such, you can't play him late game and immediately turn the corner. All these are liabilities for a draw-go style. Cryptics on the other hand aren't and I disagree going down to 3 for a mid range threat. Even a U Gearhulk would had been better.
If you choose to go midrangey, then of course include 3/4 copies of little Jace, 4 IoK, Kalitas etc, this is no question (for me at least). But replacing some non-immediate, non-relevant midrange threats in place of the raw card advantage of AV, I think, is simply wrong. With IoKs you just trade 1-1 for Jace needs several turns to reach AV levels.
Reading some pages back we are all whining about the best build. My guess is there is no best 75 for the Grixis player. It all depends on the meta you are in. For example, I played a tournament yesterday with 50+ players. 0 Burn players and loads of Midrange Strategies like UW, Jund, Grixis and Creature style decks (Coco - Naya Landfall - Coralhelm).
I think you just need to pick up a 75 you are comfy with. I just keep on following Corey on this. Minorly tweaking his list over and over again. I bairly top 8éd yesterday. Due to some stupid rules and people ID'ing after I lost because I was downpaired I didn't make the cut. My only loss wass vs Infect and Naya Landfall with Rampager. Both matches where winable.
I had 1 draw vs UW control. What seems decent because it is a hard matchup. They have like 3 snare, 4 leak, 3 remand and some cryptics to go with it. Kitchen Finks and Resto. So the draw was kind of a victory for me. Especcialy I was winning game 3 through a Elspeth Sun's Champion.
I try to revieuw my list after each tournament. I find myself disliking Jace, Architect of Thought and Collective Brutality. I might go up to the second Anger and a Keranos, God of Storms. Just to try him out in the grindy matches.
It also depends what type of tournament scenes you frequent. Big 200+ player requires a whole range of cards and it is best to start with Corey's list since it is crafted that way. Now when you only expect to play small tournaments you can customize it however you want. Test some cards out, do something non standard. You can throw a lot of people off who know the general construction of the deck. Adding variations will confuse people and make them play differently. Nothing wrong with making a slightly different deck. Just make sure you play your variation heavily so you know the ins and outs.
Right now my list is stock but I decided to throw in a Dark Petition to see if helps any. Yeah it is totally off the wall and the only 5 cmc spell but the text on the card offers something to me that I like. I feel that this deck lacks finding specific answers and I want to address it somehow. Spell mastery seems easily achievable too.
Some scenarios I tried to come up with:
- Petition for Engineered Explosives, cast for 1 with activation ready or cast for 0, activate and also cast Push
- Petition for Tasigur, the Golden Fang or Gurmag Angler, cast using all 3 black or use it with combination of Fatal Push and or Terminate (requires an open red for terminate) afterwards
- Petition for Damnation and cast (requires 6 mana though)
- Petition for Fulminator Mage and cast
- Petition for Surgical Extraction
- Petition for Collective Brutality and cast
- Petition for Kolaghan's Command and cast (requires an open red and 6 mana)
- Petition for Snapcaster Mage or Fatal Push (6 mana total with one blue open) and do a combination of Push, Snap, Push. Something totally crazy.
Don't have to necessarily find a black card, you might have it in your hand already. So you could find something to cast next turn and still cast something with black during the turn. Niche case scenarios at best. Sorcery might not be the best game plan but finding answers or threats seems like a good idea to me. Gifts Ungiven or Mystical Teachings could be leagues better.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
How do you all feel about playing a Keranos, God of Storms in the SB to add extra grindy-oomph to the midrange matches?
I think it's worse in the Cryptic Command versions, but maybe in the Blue Jund versions? Thoughts?
Took him out since Jeskai Nahiri was a thing and so did a lot of others. Would need to put him back in and see if a sorcery bolt / draw additional card at upkeep guy is worth bringing back in. Maybe with all the different variations of control coming around it might be worth taking another look at.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
How do you all feel about playing a Keranos, God of Storms in the SB to add extra grindy-oomph to the midrange matches?
I think it's worse in the Cryptic Command versions, but maybe in the Blue Jund versions? Thoughts?
Took him out since Jeskai Nahiri was a thing and so did a lot of others. Would need to put him back in and see if a sorcery bolt / draw additional card at upkeep guy is worth bringing back in. Maybe with all the different variations of control coming around it might be worth taking another look at.
I agree. Other than the random less than 1% of Mardu Nahiri, I haven't seen it in a long time. I'm going to be testing it at GP NJ side events, for sure.
Went to TNM last night and did not do well. Resolved plenty of AV but did not draw threats. Got Blood Mooned out in one game as well. Matches were Affinity(Draw), Grixis Delver(Loss), UW Gifts Tron(Draw) and WB Tokens(Win). Against Delver game 1 I could not for the life of me find a threat, just drew control cards all game and milled Tasigurs/Snaps/Kolaghans. Game 2 he dropped Blood Moon and eventually landed a one of Chandra, Torch of Defiance. He Molten Rained my only swamp as well. Not a good night.
My list is not the same as one in the signature either. Did not have time to make changes before leaving.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
How do you all feel about playing a Keranos, God of Storms in the SB to add extra grindy-oomph to the midrange matches?
I think it's worse in the Cryptic Command versions, but maybe in the Blue Jund versions? Thoughts?
I feel like Keranos is good in slow metas without any Nahiri decks
does anyone else run ashiok, nightmare weaver in the side? I feel he/ she is really good vs midrange decks like the chord variants, since it allows the opportunity to exile random utility stuff and somewhat good in control mirrors, since it allows me to just straight exile cards, sometimes either milling them out or just removing answers permanently
How do you all feel about playing a Keranos, God of Storms in the SB to add extra grindy-oomph to the midrange matches?
I think it's worse in the Cryptic Command versions, but maybe in the Blue Jund versions? Thoughts?
I feel like Keranos is good in slow metas without any Nahiri decks
does anyone else run ashiok, nightmare weaver in the side? I feel he/ she is really good vs midrange decks like the chord variants, since it allows the opportunity to exile random utility stuff and somewhat good in control mirrors, since it allows me to just straight exile cards, sometimes either milling them out or just removing answers permanently
I used to, but I don't like having cards in my deck that I can't K-Command or Snap back if I flip it with a thought scour. EE is an exception because the cards is very good in a lot of matchups.
My question is: Tasigur + ...Bob? Is It not a suicide? Even jund lists with The singleton of tasigur are crazy imo. If You flip it you lose too much life. Which are your feelings about it?
3 Tasigur + multiple Thoughtseizes is making me a little wary, not gonna lie.
How do you all feel about playing a Keranos, God of Storms in the SB to add extra grindy-oomph to the midrange matches?
I think it's worse in the Cryptic Command versions, but maybe in the Blue Jund versions? Thoughts?
I feel like Keranos is good in slow metas without any Nahiri decks
does anyone else run ashiok, nightmare weaver in the side? I feel he/ she is really good vs midrange decks like the chord variants, since it allows the opportunity to exile random utility stuff and somewhat good in control mirrors, since it allows me to just straight exile cards, sometimes either milling them out or just removing answers permanently
I used to, but I don't like having cards in my deck that I can't K-Command or Snap back if I flip it with a thought scour. EE is an exception because the cards is very good in a lot of matchups.
that's very true, milling one over would feel pretty bad. I've been debating cutting it for other cards that fill a similar role but I can k command back
Death's shadow is great in Modern because it doesn't have access to Swords to Plowshares. There are some cards in white that do something similar but people still aren't playing them (hi Condemn!). Also the strategy of being proactive and powerful discard outweighs reactive and draw go. Not to mention there is also shocklands which synergize well with the life loss into a huge 1 CMC threat. I should have seen this coming sooner but failed to test/realize its power. The good news is the strategy isn't oppressive just powerful.
I don't think Control has too much problem dealing with DS though. We have late game Cryptic Command locks and can burn them out if needed. You are right though with the Jund version being the best.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
I've found that Death's Shadow can have problems with interactive decks. They race the linear decks quickly and have game vs. the mildly interactive ones (i.e. Eldrazi) or those that rely on damage based removal (i.e. Blue Moon) but I've found that against decks with more than Lightning Bolt they have trouble. Fatal Push and Path are great against them and decks with their own Goyf can be difficult to matchup against.
I think we're also good against them. Push + Terminate is great and Snapcaster gives us extra copies of those particular cards. A deck with only 8 threats can have trouble against us.
I've found that Death's Shadow can have problems with interactive decks. They race the linear decks quickly and have game vs. the mildly interactive ones (i.e. Eldrazi) or those that rely on damage based removal (i.e. Blue Moon) but I've found that against decks with more than Lightning Bolt they have trouble. Fatal Push and Path are great against them and decks with their own Goyf can be difficult to matchup against.
I think we're also good against them. Push + Terminate is great and Snapcaster gives us extra copies of those particular cards. A deck with only 8 threats can have trouble against us.
I don't know if it's quite that rosy. 8 threats + 4 Traverse + a 52-card deck + Liliana, the Last Hope + Kolaghan's Command + 17(?) lands means they have some real resilience vs. spot removal. And their discard means they can pick apart the most relevant answers, often leaving us with the wrong half of our deck. (Although Snapcasters and our own K-Commands help a lot with that, for sure!) Post-board, they have Ranger of Eos and Lingering Souls to shore up the value matchup.
I haven't played against it so I can't say for sure, but I don't think DS Jund is as soft to removal as it's often made out to be.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
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You must not like drawing cards. Cantripping off of spells that impact the board is about velocity without having to lose CA.
Thoughtseize will in fact be a bad topdeck -- however, if someone has previously resolved a Karn then drawing a Cryptic or a Snap probably wouldn't matter either.
Obviously, Slay literally could be anything else in the SB but against Green decks I am 1. looking for more Terminates for Finks, Knight, Baloth, Thragtusk and 2. looking to applying CA pressure without having to take a turn off from killing their stuff. Cantrips over CA engines like AV play a fundamental role in this deck which is to keep a full grip of cards while your opponent tries to slip an appropriate threat through. You don't take turns off and you don't let the board build up.
3cmc also requires Revolt -- so there are threats that I listed that Push doesn't hit 100% of the time. Push is fine but not "UR NOT RUNNING 4 PUSHES WHAT IS WRONG WITH U" level. I'm happy with two. Any outside of that and you need to 1. turn on Revolt consistently and 2. realize the scope of the card will let 5 and 6 mana idiots through.
A control player dismissing Electrolyze? What odd times we live in. Certainly there are metas where it's bad but it is rather mana efficient for it's flexibility and replacement effect.
Edit: I can understand wanting to bring a new perspective on a deck, but I feel like the reasoning provided so far isn't very convincing. The deck is already incredibly powerful in the late game. I don't see why we need to focus even more on the late game in favor of taking out our early game plays.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Just because Corey doesn't play Thoughtseize or Electrolyze does in no way make them bad or unnecessary. Playing "just" one of any particular card can also be the best decision. With a deck that is as dense with card draw and self mill as this deck, drawing into multiples of a card that makes you lose life is a very real liability. I used to play one Thoughtseize in my SB for the longest time, but would have never even considered a second one.
I'm not very high on Slay myself because it's a little too narrow for my tastes, and the mana investment makes the otherwise great 2-for-1 less exciting. However I believe it is definitely an addition that improves some MUs.
I think I should bring up a point I have made earlier: AV is a difficult card to evaluate because it's a card that makes itself look good in a way. Drawing AV in your opener makes your hand effectively a mulligan until the turn it resolves, and so it puts you in a spot where you end up needing the AV to survive in the game more often than not.
As Lugger said, this deck crushed Jund before the unbanning of AV, which why I have always questioned the cards purpose in this deck. The only times I regret not playing AV is in the mirror match, and even then it's not swinging the game that hard in my opponents' favor. I have my Remands to compensate.
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Yeah, I totally get this.
Electrolyze has a role that is very real in control decks, perhaps most seen to be useful as a thought experiment as to why cantripping while impacting the board is good. KCommand is better at 3 simply because we're the best Snapcaster deck in modern by a mile. For everytime you cast a KCommand without a Snap in the yard there's equivalently one where you snag the snap and chain the 2 for 1s for the rest of the game. I cut down to 2 KCommands a few months after Chapin's big finish and it ended up being 100% incorrect. KCommand + Snapcaster Mage is fundamentally the engine of this deck. 3 commands ensures that you see 1 and can loop an early snap. Obviously, Cryptic Command + Snapcaster Mage is a similar engine but that engine's mana intensity makes it sort of an unreasonable proposal.
Anyway, I take breaks from Grixis and will be glad to hop back on -- I get distracted by green midrange strategies.
Thoughts? Some unusual inclusions in his list, like IoK and Flip Jace, but he makes some interesting points in favor of their inclusion.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
I don't like Cryptic in the Jace-heavy lists, and I think that if you're going to be playing IoK, you really should have 3-4 to make sure you have it in the early turns, when it's important.
I play all grixis lists in kind of a rotation system (control/midrange/cruel) because I like them all, but this type of merging lists together leads nowhere.
In a draw-go style list that is Corey's the split (2/2) of sorcery speed "threats", IoK and Baby Jace, just doesn't make the cut. 2 IoK won't be often enough in your starting hand to make a difference resulting in occasional bad top decks which could had been avoided. The 2 Jace's just enable your opponents removal early on, leaving you tapped out on T2, where you don't want to be. If you choose to play him way later it will either indeed end up enabling a dead cards in your opponents hand or clogging your hand for several turns. He is not an immediate threat as he needs a turn to flip and as such, you can't play him late game and immediately turn the corner. All these are liabilities for a draw-go style. Cryptics on the other hand aren't and I disagree going down to 3 for a mid range threat. Even a U Gearhulk would had been better.
If you choose to go midrangey, then of course include 3/4 copies of little Jace, 4 IoK, Kalitas etc, this is no question (for me at least). But replacing some non-immediate, non-relevant midrange threats in place of the raw card advantage of AV, I think, is simply wrong. With IoKs you just trade 1-1 for Jace needs several turns to reach AV levels.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
I think you just need to pick up a 75 you are comfy with. I just keep on following Corey on this. Minorly tweaking his list over and over again. I bairly top 8éd yesterday. Due to some stupid rules and people ID'ing after I lost because I was downpaired I didn't make the cut. My only loss wass vs Infect and Naya Landfall with Rampager. Both matches where winable.
I had 1 draw vs UW control. What seems decent because it is a hard matchup. They have like 3 snare, 4 leak, 3 remand and some cryptics to go with it. Kitchen Finks and Resto. So the draw was kind of a victory for me. Especcialy I was winning game 3 through a Elspeth Sun's Champion.
I try to revieuw my list after each tournament. I find myself disliking Jace, Architect of Thought and Collective Brutality. I might go up to the second Anger and a Keranos, God of Storms. Just to try him out in the grindy matches.
Right now my list is stock but I decided to throw in a Dark Petition to see if helps any. Yeah it is totally off the wall and the only 5 cmc spell but the text on the card offers something to me that I like. I feel that this deck lacks finding specific answers and I want to address it somehow. Spell mastery seems easily achievable too.
Some scenarios I tried to come up with:
- Petition for Engineered Explosives, cast for 1 with activation ready or cast for 0, activate and also cast Push
- Petition for Tasigur, the Golden Fang or Gurmag Angler, cast using all 3 black or use it with combination of Fatal Push and or Terminate (requires an open red for terminate) afterwards
- Petition for Damnation and cast (requires 6 mana though)
- Petition for Fulminator Mage and cast
- Petition for Surgical Extraction
- Petition for Collective Brutality and cast
- Petition for Kolaghan's Command and cast (requires an open red and 6 mana)
- Petition for Snapcaster Mage or Fatal Push (6 mana total with one blue open) and do a combination of Push, Snap, Push. Something totally crazy.
Don't have to necessarily find a black card, you might have it in your hand already. So you could find something to cast next turn and still cast something with black during the turn. Niche case scenarios at best. Sorcery might not be the best game plan but finding answers or threats seems like a good idea to me. Gifts Ungiven or Mystical Teachings could be leagues better.
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
I think it's worse in the Cryptic Command versions, but maybe in the Blue Jund versions? Thoughts?
Took him out since Jeskai Nahiri was a thing and so did a lot of others. Would need to put him back in and see if a sorcery bolt / draw additional card at upkeep guy is worth bringing back in. Maybe with all the different variations of control coming around it might be worth taking another look at.
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
I agree. Other than the random less than 1% of Mardu Nahiri, I haven't seen it in a long time. I'm going to be testing it at GP NJ side events, for sure.
My list is not the same as one in the signature either. Did not have time to make changes before leaving.
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
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StaffI feel like Keranos is good in slow metas without any Nahiri decks
does anyone else run ashiok, nightmare weaver in the side? I feel he/ she is really good vs midrange decks like the chord variants, since it allows the opportunity to exile random utility stuff and somewhat good in control mirrors, since it allows me to just straight exile cards, sometimes either milling them out or just removing answers permanently
I used to, but I don't like having cards in my deck that I can't K-Command or Snap back if I flip it with a thought scour. EE is an exception because the cards is very good in a lot of matchups.
3 Tasigur + multiple Thoughtseizes is making me a little wary, not gonna lie.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
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Staffthat's very true, milling one over would feel pretty bad. I've been debating cutting it for other cards that fill a similar role but I can k command back
Fixed.
Death's shadow is great in Modern because it doesn't have access to Swords to Plowshares. There are some cards in white that do something similar but people still aren't playing them (hi Condemn!). Also the strategy of being proactive and powerful discard outweighs reactive and draw go. Not to mention there is also shocklands which synergize well with the life loss into a huge 1 CMC threat. I should have seen this coming sooner but failed to test/realize its power. The good news is the strategy isn't oppressive just powerful.
I don't think Control has too much problem dealing with DS though. We have late game Cryptic Command locks and can burn them out if needed. You are right though with the Jund version being the best.
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
I think we're also good against them. Push + Terminate is great and Snapcaster gives us extra copies of those particular cards. A deck with only 8 threats can have trouble against us.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
I don't know if it's quite that rosy. 8 threats + 4 Traverse + a 52-card deck + Liliana, the Last Hope + Kolaghan's Command + 17(?) lands means they have some real resilience vs. spot removal. And their discard means they can pick apart the most relevant answers, often leaving us with the wrong half of our deck. (Although Snapcasters and our own K-Commands help a lot with that, for sure!) Post-board, they have Ranger of Eos and Lingering Souls to shore up the value matchup.
I haven't played against it so I can't say for sure, but I don't think DS Jund is as soft to removal as it's often made out to be.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon