Yes ad nauseum is rough for blue decks. The lower cmc counters are certainly helping you vs them I'm sure. How is your deck fairing vs Bant Eldrazi? How do you usually get in wins vs them?
Yes ad nauseum is rough for blue decks. The lower cmc counters are certainly helping you vs them I'm sure. How is your deck fairing vs Bant Eldrazi? How do you usually get in wins vs them?
I imagine the games are similar on both versions. I hope to get under them with Fulminators or pray they don't have the cavern, I keep the Remands in because of this. Usually the wins come from destroying their mana.
My game plan against eldrazi post board usually involves fulminators slowing them down, sometimes surgical does work as well, and then race them with tap your dudes mode when the inevitable chain of monsters come. Ulamog is a tough pill to swallow as always, but still beatable.
Is there any particular reason why Grixis Control decks typically do not run thoughtseize or inquisition of kozilek? Is the hope to counter or terminate and stay tempo neutral or plus?
It seems to be that T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Spell Snare and Ancestral Visions, T3 Tasigur seems like a solid play. So I am looking to see if there is a big reason why no one has done this.
In the last two FNMs my score against Eldrazi variants is 1-4 with my overall score being 4-4 (the two FNMs before those I mentioned were 8-0 total, I pretty much won against anything else including lantern control, AdN and several aggressive decks and played against 0 eldrazi variants). My matches against eldrazi variants are: 0-1 (1-2 games) against GB Tron, 0-2 against Bant Eldrazi (1-4 games); 1-1 against BW Eldrazi taxes (2-3 games).
I have to say that, weirdly enough, the matches I felt better were against GB Tron. The fulminator/surgical/Kommand package is just insanely powerful against them. The only problem is if you can find the early tasigur to finish the game. But locking them out of the game is definitely possible.
Against BW eldrazi I feel like it is a coin-toss. We either crash them/outvalue them really hard or they get the early arbiter/Thalia that we can't do much really. T2 TKS also is not helping.
Against Bant Eldrazi, I had a single game which I won because I managed to literally counter 4 Smasher with 4 C. Commands before winning. I feel like the only way we can win is if they have a very very veeery slow draw and we draw a lot of value cards.
I am playing the Burkhart list with a single Fatal push so far (replaced 1 Terminate). I was thinking if I wanted to replace my mainboard EE but then the 2 Lantern control in my meta said otherwise :P. The problem with Bant Eldrazi and Fulminator is that it doesn't slow them down enough and they can be way quicker. They can also go way more wide with skyspawner and out-value us. I would really wanna figure out a way to go at least toe to toe against them but I have extensively discussed it with my friend who plays the Bant eldrazi and we haven't figured out a way.
tron is doable especially if wizards gives us counter spell. but i feel eldrazi is a real problem in modern, especially paper. fast mana in general is a problem in modern.
Where are you getting this speculation theyre going reprint counterspell from?
Is there any particular reason why Grixis Control decks typically do not run thoughtseize or inquisition of kozilek? Is the hope to counter or terminate and stay tempo neutral or plus?
It seems to be that T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Spell Snare and Ancestral Visions, T3 Tasigur seems like a solid play. So I am looking to see if there is a big reason why no one has done this.
There are lists that run discard, its not an original thought by any means. if you go back in the thread 6 months you'll see the development and lots of pros and cons to why the list runs one over the other. There are good reasons for both, but I think in general, the reactive counter style play opposed to proactive discard style play has benefited the list more.
Ultimatum is a really fun card, but by no means does this deck need a Sorcery speed 7-drop that doesn't instantly win the game. If you've made it to turn 7 with a current iteration of Grixis Control, you're probably in the driver's seat anyway.
Is there any particular reason why Grixis Control decks typically do not run thoughtseize or inquisition of kozilek? Is the hope to counter or terminate and stay tempo neutral or plus?
It seems to be that T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Spell Snare and Ancestral Visions, T3 Tasigur seems like a solid play. So I am looking to see if there is a big reason why no one has done this.
Generally speaking, the level one reason is because it's card disadvantage and a control deck wants to stay up on cards. Sure it's a 1 for 1 trade and you are essentially trying to get even on cards so your 2 for 1's and draw spells pull you ahead. However, the big problem with discard is that its mana disadvantage. In a control deck that is trying to get to cryptic command and snapcaster mage, you need to deal with what the opponent is doing not what they are going to do. Especially on the draw, falling behind and not being able to catch back up to control the game and eventually turn the corner is the constant battle.
Discard puts you behind on cards and mana, making it more difficult to deal with what your opponent has developed on board.
Chandra intrigues me. Did you +1 exile a lot? I don't like it in my mind because I don't want to flip cryptic and exile it.
Not the poster you're asking, but I've been running 2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance maindeck for a few months. While I think it's probably better as 1-1, the two-pack pulled a lot of weight. Killing something when she comes down is great and she generates a ton of value with her +1 (also killing Liliana after an edict, mind you!), but the best part is just giving the deck another vector of attack on top of the 3 Tasigur, 4 Snapcaster, 2 Tar Pit package. She ultimates surprisingly often since it's hard for your opponent to swing into her with all of our disruption, and usually you can just win on the spot once she does.
Like most of our deck, she's great in fair matchups and lousy against big mana. So she'll have a hard time if you play MTGO or if paper starts reflecting the all-big-mana-all-the-time meta of online (but that's true of the deck in general, of course!). So depending on meta shifts, she may gain or more likely lose some of her value.
The +1 whiffing isn't really a problem, because you're always getting value out of it even if you hit a counterspell or land. Even without the added shock, +1ing her is fine because the number of times you exile something you'd rather draw are far lower than the number of times you either hit something you want or dig yourself down into drawing a good card. Although it does make for some feel-bads to exile a counterspell.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Is there any particular reason why Grixis Control decks typically do not run thoughtseize or inquisition of kozilek? Is the hope to counter or terminate and stay tempo neutral or plus?
It seems to be that T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Spell Snare and Ancestral Visions, T3 Tasigur seems like a solid play. So I am looking to see if there is a big reason why no one has done this.
Generally speaking, the level one reason is because it's card disadvantage and a control deck wants to stay up on cards. Sure it's a 1 for 1 trade and you are essentially trying to get even on cards so your 2 for 1's and draw spells pull you ahead. However, the big problem with discard is that its mana disadvantage. In a control deck that is trying to get to cryptic command and snapcaster mage, you need to deal with what the opponent is doing not what they are going to do. Especially on the draw, falling behind and not being able to catch back up to control the game and eventually turn the corner is the constant battle.
Discard puts you behind on cards and mana, making it more difficult to deal with what your opponent has developed on board.
I think it would be a mistake to run cryptic command and discard packages in the same list. I think if you want to run discard you're list will vary bigly from that of corey burkharts.
Although I do think that a discard package in this meta may be stronger than the established list. in a meta full of tron, a bunch of midrange, and combos like scapeshift, I believe discard may be stronger than it has in metas in the past 6 months. That will need testing though.
Is there any particular reason why Grixis Control decks typically do not run thoughtseize or inquisition of kozilek? Is the hope to counter or terminate and stay tempo neutral or plus?
It seems to be that T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Spell Snare and Ancestral Visions, T3 Tasigur seems like a solid play. So I am looking to see if there is a big reason why no one has done this.
Generally speaking, the level one reason is because it's card disadvantage and a control deck wants to stay up on cards. Sure it's a 1 for 1 trade and you are essentially trying to get even on cards so your 2 for 1's and draw spells pull you ahead. However, the big problem with discard is that its mana disadvantage. In a control deck that is trying to get to cryptic command and snapcaster mage, you need to deal with what the opponent is doing not what they are going to do. Especially on the draw, falling behind and not being able to catch back up to control the game and eventually turn the corner is the constant battle.
Discard puts you behind on cards and mana, making it more difficult to deal with what your opponent has developed on board.
Discard does NOT put you behind on cards, just mana. And its 1 mana for IOK, additional 2 life for TS. I'm not big on discard but you have to acknowledge that Discard can actually offer card advantage against certain opponents. Examples:
There are probably more, but these are just examples of stuff that put you ahead on cards, directly or indirectly when you target them with discard. Some of them we have 1-for-1 answers for, others we don't, and still others we would have to work a lot harder than simply paying B.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
playing discard spells on top of the eight cantrips would be a bit too much. because of these setup spells we are already sacrificing tempo and you'd rather want your interactive spells to trade mana for mana.
if your gameplan is to be reactive and hold up mana on your opponents' turn, discard spells lose a bit of their appeal. we are not looking to find and exploit weaknesses in our opponents' hands because we generally don't have an early threat we want to ride to victory. we generally don't want to preemptively strip the opponent of answers so we can slam something big on the following turns. Discard is at its best in decks that can afford to ignore some of the cards the opponent has. our gameplan is purely reactive (most of time), and we really can't afford to not answer anything. Discard's strength is that it trades for the best card the opponent has, but this loses its allure when you are planning on answering anything the opponent brings to the table anyway.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
Grixis fam, a fellow forum member 5-0'd a league with my cryptic delver list and recorded it with commentary! His list is even CLOSER than mine to corey control (by 2 cards lol). Just wanted to share and showcase the strength of delver vs the strength of vision, which of course shine in their own respective match ups.
And, if you're COMPLETELY behind, I've compiled all of my current videos from start to finish in a 16-video long playlist: Complete Modern Grixis Playlist
I hate to say this part because it feels like a shameless plug, but feel free to like/subscribe/comment so I can bring you some more Grixis content in the future. MTGO ain't free!
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decks playing:
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I imagine the games are similar on both versions. I hope to get under them with Fulminators or pray they don't have the cavern, I keep the Remands in because of this. Usually the wins come from destroying their mana.
Youtube Channel
It seems to be that T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Spell Snare and Ancestral Visions, T3 Tasigur seems like a solid play. So I am looking to see if there is a big reason why no one has done this.
I have to say that, weirdly enough, the matches I felt better were against GB Tron. The fulminator/surgical/Kommand package is just insanely powerful against them. The only problem is if you can find the early tasigur to finish the game. But locking them out of the game is definitely possible.
Against BW eldrazi I feel like it is a coin-toss. We either crash them/outvalue them really hard or they get the early arbiter/Thalia that we can't do much really. T2 TKS also is not helping.
Against Bant Eldrazi, I had a single game which I won because I managed to literally counter 4 Smasher with 4 C. Commands before winning. I feel like the only way we can win is if they have a very very veeery slow draw and we draw a lot of value cards.
I am playing the Burkhart list with a single Fatal push so far (replaced 1 Terminate). I was thinking if I wanted to replace my mainboard EE but then the 2 Lantern control in my meta said otherwise :P. The problem with Bant Eldrazi and Fulminator is that it doesn't slow them down enough and they can be way quicker. They can also go way more wide with skyspawner and out-value us. I would really wanna figure out a way to go at least toe to toe against them but I have extensively discussed it with my friend who plays the Bant eldrazi and we haven't figured out a way.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Where are you getting this speculation theyre going reprint counterspell from?
There are lists that run discard, its not an original thought by any means. if you go back in the thread 6 months you'll see the development and lots of pros and cons to why the list runs one over the other. There are good reasons for both, but I think in general, the reactive counter style play opposed to proactive discard style play has benefited the list more.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/developing-legacy/770827-primer-legacy-pili-pala
BGX Midrange
URX Control
Generally speaking, the level one reason is because it's card disadvantage and a control deck wants to stay up on cards. Sure it's a 1 for 1 trade and you are essentially trying to get even on cards so your 2 for 1's and draw spells pull you ahead. However, the big problem with discard is that its mana disadvantage. In a control deck that is trying to get to cryptic command and snapcaster mage, you need to deal with what the opponent is doing not what they are going to do. Especially on the draw, falling behind and not being able to catch back up to control the game and eventually turn the corner is the constant battle.
Discard puts you behind on cards and mana, making it more difficult to deal with what your opponent has developed on board.
Wow. This is a statement i havent heard in years.
And no, i don't agree with you but thanks anyway for the chuckle!
Not the poster you're asking, but I've been running 2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance maindeck for a few months. While I think it's probably better as 1-1, the two-pack pulled a lot of weight. Killing something when she comes down is great and she generates a ton of value with her +1 (also killing Liliana after an edict, mind you!), but the best part is just giving the deck another vector of attack on top of the 3 Tasigur, 4 Snapcaster, 2 Tar Pit package. She ultimates surprisingly often since it's hard for your opponent to swing into her with all of our disruption, and usually you can just win on the spot once she does.
Like most of our deck, she's great in fair matchups and lousy against big mana. So she'll have a hard time if you play MTGO or if paper starts reflecting the all-big-mana-all-the-time meta of online (but that's true of the deck in general, of course!). So depending on meta shifts, she may gain or more likely lose some of her value.
The +1 whiffing isn't really a problem, because you're always getting value out of it even if you hit a counterspell or land. Even without the added shock, +1ing her is fine because the number of times you exile something you'd rather draw are far lower than the number of times you either hit something you want or dig yourself down into drawing a good card. Although it does make for some feel-bads to exile a counterspell.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/developing-legacy/770827-primer-legacy-pili-pala
I think it would be a mistake to run cryptic command and discard packages in the same list. I think if you want to run discard you're list will vary bigly from that of corey burkharts.
Although I do think that a discard package in this meta may be stronger than the established list. in a meta full of tron, a bunch of midrange, and combos like scapeshift, I believe discard may be stronger than it has in metas in the past 6 months. That will need testing though.
Discard does NOT put you behind on cards, just mana. And its 1 mana for IOK, additional 2 life for TS. I'm not big on discard but you have to acknowledge that Discard can actually offer card advantage against certain opponents. Examples:
There are probably more, but these are just examples of stuff that put you ahead on cards, directly or indirectly when you target them with discard. Some of them we have 1-for-1 answers for, others we don't, and still others we would have to work a lot harder than simply paying B.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
if your gameplan is to be reactive and hold up mana on your opponents' turn, discard spells lose a bit of their appeal. we are not looking to find and exploit weaknesses in our opponents' hands because we generally don't have an early threat we want to ride to victory. we generally don't want to preemptively strip the opponent of answers so we can slam something big on the following turns. Discard is at its best in decks that can afford to ignore some of the cards the opponent has. our gameplan is purely reactive (most of time), and we really can't afford to not answer anything. Discard's strength is that it trades for the best card the opponent has, but this loses its allure when you are planning on answering anything the opponent brings to the table anyway.
Youtube Channel
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/573717#paper
Just remands and counterfluxes.
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun