Of note is that Corey Burkhart mentioned (on his Twitter) a new article coming up sometime next week on Channel Fireball on Grixis Control and adjustments from Aether Revolt and the expected meta.
Hmm, interesting. I wonder what he's up to other than the obvious "How do we Fatal Push?" question.
I've been doing some jankey experiments with 2/2/2 Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek/Whir of Invention. Can't say it seems particularly good or anything, but it's been fun. Gives us another angle of attack in case we can't get our threats through their creature removal, and it gives you a lot of ways of assembling the combo (1 of each piece, 1 piece plus a Whir on 5 lands, 1 Whir plus a Snapcaster on 6 lands because of Improvise). Probably goes in place of the AV package at FNMs where I feel like raising some eyebrows.
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WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
I expect burn to start to creep back up again as a deck that is relatively unhurt from Fatal Push (For instance, I wouldn't play Nacatl's right now, but they have plenty of non-creature options) and which beats Infect, Tron, Bant Eldrazi, Valakut style decks that will probably see a minor increase. In other words, I'd rather focus on reducing the damage from my manabase (which is besides the reliance on the GY, the biggest weakness of the deck), and build the deck to lessen the effect of having your 4th land CIPT. In other words, playing 2-3 Bolts and 3-4 Pushes. Having roughly ~7 good 1 mana removal generally means that you're more or less fine taking one turn off Cryptic (I'd probably shave 1 Cryptic in this list). I also think there might be some uptick with BGx decks, so I'm going to test out 3 AV and 1 Painful Truths (having a less painful mana base means you can play 1 of these).
I think people are going over-board with fetch counts for Push. Push without revolt kills many of the things we want to kill. Playing 8 fetches you should be able to have revolt more often than not when you need it (by lowering your average CMC as well it makes something like Deprive more playable which can also turn on Revolt though it's not really consistent there..., but I like it better than Countersquall MB imho, especially if the format slows down and the big mana decks become more of the meta). The side effect here by playing Push over more expensive spells like Cryptic/Terminate (which you can shave 1 of each np), is that your fetches can be saved more easily, since you need less mana to play your spells. My point is there is a big give and take. I'd rather lower my average CMC, reduce the damage I take from my lands, and play a less narrow counter in Deprive.
I might end up going to 3 Collective Brutality and 1 Filigree Familiar in my SB as I expect burn to creep up to 10%+ of the meta.
I missed the article when it was published, but according to Modern Nexus's December 2016 numbers, we're back in Tier 2 again. Which may be a bad thing, considering what happened last time Grixis Control became the public enemy #1 of the format.
I guess it makes sense, given Infect and Jund (two good matchups) were the two top decks, represingint almost 20% of the format.
I think the list is much more refined now and with dredge going down in popularity we won't be hated as much. The first lists were much more all in on delve creatures while now it is literally all about the grind. If meta changes we can always adapt and go the blue jund route. I don't think we are falling any time soon as long as people keep playing the deck.
It helps to have such a visible pro playing our deck too. Nearly winning the GP was a big boon for us, especially since Corey has started streaming (twitch.tv/magician5), keeping his popularity up. He also posts a fair amount on channelfireball. Having a pro player to look to for meta adjustments is also a big deal for those that aren't great at deckbuilding, which should help our numbers.
I expect burn to start to creep back up again as a deck that is relatively unhurt from Fatal Push (For instance, I wouldn't play Nacatl's right now, but they have plenty of non-creature options) and which beats Infect, Tron, Bant Eldrazi, Valakut style decks that will probably see a minor increase. In other words, I'd rather focus on reducing the damage from my manabase (which is besides the reliance on the GY, the biggest weakness of the deck), and build the deck to lessen the effect of having your 4th land CIPT. In other words, playing 2-3 Bolts and 3-4 Pushes. Having roughly ~7 good 1 mana removal generally means that you're more or less fine taking one turn off Cryptic (I'd probably shave 1 Cryptic in this list). I also think there might be some uptick with BGx decks, so I'm going to test out 3 AV and 1 Painful Truths (having a less painful mana base means you can play 1 of these).
I think people are going over-board with fetch counts for Push. Push without revolt kills many of the things we want to kill. Playing 8 fetches you should be able to have revolt more often than not when you need it (by lowering your average CMC as well it makes something like Deprive more playable which can also turn on Revolt though it's not really consistent there..., but I like it better than Countersquall MB imho, especially if the format slows down and the big mana decks become more of the meta). The side effect here by playing Push over more expensive spells like Cryptic/Terminate (which you can shave 1 of each np), is that your fetches can be saved more easily, since you need less mana to play your spells. My point is there is a big give and take. I'd rather lower my average CMC, reduce the damage I take from my lands, and play a less narrow counter in Deprive.
I might end up going to 3 Collective Brutality and 1 Filigree Familiar in my SB as I expect burn to creep up to 10%+ of the meta.
On that note, what would people look at bringing into tier 75 if Burn has an uptick? I've always found it to be a dreadful matchup even with a reasonable amount of SB hate and slight MD configuration for it. I'm currently lucky to be able to ignore it, since I'm fortunate though in that I haven't seen any Burn since I returned to my usual FNM spot. Very interested to hear others' take on it, though. Just the usual Sun Droplet? Vampiric Link? Collective Brutality? Dispel? Spellskite? Chill? (Oh wait…)
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WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Thoughts on cremate for the sideboard to combat delve, snaps, jace, and dredge, without losing a card? Also shadow of a doubt seems like a good sb card seeing as every multicolored deck (almost) plays fetchez,and to combat titans, chords, and pacts?
I'm not sure it's worth it. Yes Cremate replaces itself, but it's just so low impact. I'd rather just nuke the yard and be done with it than screw around with potentially countering one or two spells.
I haven't found the burn matchup to be dreadful with my list, more like fifty-fifty, but if I wanted better tools there I'd certainly add more Dispels and Brutalities to my SB.
Are people seriously thinking about cutting Bolts for Fatal Pushes? There's no way that can be correct.
I haven't found the burn matchup to be dreadful with my list, more like fifty-fifty, but if I wanted better tools there I'd certainly add more Dispels and Brutalities to my SB.
Thanks for the reply. Looks like the main difference between our lists is a pack of Mana Leaks and Remands in place of the Ancestral Visions and Deprive/Logic Knot 1-ofs I'm running. I can only imagine how much that helps game 1.
I could never imagine cutting AV with all the midrange grindfests in my meta.
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WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Corey thinks that shaving a Bolt may be correct for more Pushes. I disagree personally, but we'll see where he ends up in a week or so.
I agree. I don't think bolt should ever leave the list. Bolt Snap Bolt when you're in a tough matchup saves the day. Replacing the already very decent creature removal that bolt has with a more powerful option won't replace that utility.
I have to add that the fact UR Kiln Fiend and Zooicide decks took a huge hit from these bans lessens my interest in Push considerably. We're probably heading towards a more midrangy metagame where Tron and Eldrazi decks will be the biggest enemies for our deck. This could open the door for combo decks like Ad Nauseam to do better, but we'll have to see. I'm adding a 4th Fulminator in my SB in place of a Surgical for now though.
I have to add that the fact UR Kiln Fiend and Zooicide decks took a huge hit from these bans lessens my interest in Push considerably. We're probably heading towards a more midrangy metagame where Tron and Eldrazi decks will be the biggest enemies for our deck. This could open the door for combo decks like Ad Nauseam to do better, but we'll have to see. I'm adding a 4th Fulminator in my SB in place of a Surgical for now though.
If the format slows down and a lot of people are playing Fatal Push, Burn is the biggest winner, not the big mana decks. I'd rather add a 3rd Brutality in my side than the 4th Fulminator imho. (Or if you want, I'd rather play 3 Fulminator / 1 Spreading Seas than 4 Fulminator) Honestly though, people are putting too much emphasis on Bolt. Are we a control deck or are we trying to be a piss-poor tempo deck? Bolt is good, but Push is better. You don't need to run 4 to be able to Bolt-Snap-Bolt.
I have to add that the fact UR Kiln Fiend and Zooicide decks took a huge hit from these bans lessens my interest in Push considerably. We're probably heading towards a more midrangy metagame where Tron and Eldrazi decks will be the biggest enemies for our deck. This could open the door for combo decks like Ad Nauseam to do better, but we'll have to see. I'm adding a 4th Fulminator in my SB in place of a Surgical for now though.
If the format slows down and a lot of people are playing Fatal Push, Burn is the biggest winner, not the big mana decks. I'd rather add a 3rd Brutality in my side than the 4th Fulminator imho. (Or if you want, I'd rather play 3 Fulminator / 1 Spreading Seas than 4 Fulminator) Honestly though, people are putting too much emphasis on Bolt. Are we a control deck or are we trying to be a piss-poor tempo deck? Bolt is good, but Push is better. You don't need to run 4 to be able to Bolt-Snap-Bolt.
it's not just a matter of burning people out. you can combine Bolt with other sources of damage like Kommand or combat damage. Snap plus bolt kills a Reality Smasher, snap plus Push doesn't.
also, to be frank, this deck IS also a piss-poor tempo deck when it needs to. burning people out is your number 1 plan in many, many g1's. (EDIT: and this is the reason why this deck isn't Tier 1)
if burn becomes big, then sure, I'm willing to play more Brutalities in the SB. this doesn't mean I can't and won't play the 4th Fulminator Mage as well. my list in the sig is not what I'm currently playing in leagues, although it's very close. I'm updating the sig soon-ish.
I have problems closing the game out, sometimes Tas doesn't show up soon enough. Sometimes you just take too much damage and you are to far behind to take the lead. This deck needs a strong finish card or something that helps prevent us from dying. Kalitas looks fine but he is a 4 drop and won't be too good after push. 6 six drops look like they could help but there is no room for them. I keep wanting to run Grave Titan or Aetherling even as a 1 of. Maybe Liliana the last hope? Anyone else think we need a card like those to help?
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
I have problems closing the game out, sometimes Tas doesn't show up soon enough. Sometimes you just take too much damage and you are to far behind to take the lead. This deck needs a strong finish card or something that helps prevent us from dying. Kalitas looks fine but he is a 4 drop and won't be too good after push. 6 six drops look like they could help but there is no room for them. I keep wanting to run Grave Titan or Aetherling even as a 1 of. Maybe Liliana the last hope? Anyone else think we need a card like those to help?
I have problems closing the game out, sometimes Tas doesn't show up soon enough. Sometimes you just take too much damage and you are to far behind to take the lead. This deck needs a strong finish card or something that helps prevent us from dying. Kalitas looks fine but he is a 4 drop and won't be too good after push. 6 six drops look like they could help but there is no room for them. I keep wanting to run Grave Titan or Aetherling even as a 1 of. Maybe Liliana the last hope? Anyone else think we need a card like those to help?
The two I've tried out with varied success are 2 Vendilion Clique and 2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance. Clique is no strain on the mana because we run Cryptic anyways, and it fits nicely within a reactive, counterspell-friendly deck. It's super fragile, but any removal that finds it isn't finding your Snapcaster or Tar Pit (or Tasigur if they have to Path it), and cycling a card from their or your hand can be a huge swing in your favor. Chandra requires us to tap down 4 on our turn, which can be gross in a permission-heavy list. Her utility can vary greatly depending on what decks you're up against, but she can utterly dominate a match while being resistant to the vast majority of removal. Remember that she rolls herself up while generating card advantage or Shocking your opponent and building towards a very attainable, game-ending ultimate. If you cast her on 5, you can even roll her to 5 loyalty and ramp out a K-Command or Terminate to protect her. RR can stretch the colors a bit, although if we're running Anger we need to be able to generate it consistently anyways.
I haven't actually tried Young Pyromancer outside of Delver, but it's something worth considering. And of course don't forget you can always run say one Gurmag Angler alongside Tasigur. 3-1 doesn't seem to stretch the delve too thin. And finally remember that with Cryptic, AV, K-Command, Snapcaster, Thought Scour, and Serum Visions, we'll draw into our threats a lot more often than you'd normally think.
If I wanted another "threat" in the deck I don't want another delve creature. The deck is all ready super soft to GY hate. My choice would be Clique(s) or Torrential Gearhulk (I'd go to 23 lands if you play him). Granted, Gearhulk is slow so maybe he doesn't fit your criteria, but...he's sweet and the deck generally doesn't have a problem getting to 6 mana.
Thanks for the idea's. I'm thinking of adding Vendilion Clique now. Possibility for a pseudo thoughtseize effect, flying, flash, and hand information. Can always target yourself to remove a dead AV or extra Tas. Only running 3 AV though and waiting to get a 4th for now. Just got 2 Scalding Tarns so I'm pretty happy about that. Currently running this fetch package:
I'll give the Clique a go and see if I like them. It is a sweet card though, flying is something this deck struggles with. Oh and I forgot my list is nearly identical to the Burkhart one. Just a tad different land base.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
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I've been doing some jankey experiments with 2/2/2 Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek/Whir of Invention. Can't say it seems particularly good or anything, but it's been fun. Gives us another angle of attack in case we can't get our threats through their creature removal, and it gives you a lot of ways of assembling the combo (1 of each piece, 1 piece plus a Whir on 5 lands, 1 Whir plus a Snapcaster on 6 lands because of Improvise). Probably goes in place of the AV package at FNMs where I feel like raising some eyebrows.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
I think people are going over-board with fetch counts for Push. Push without revolt kills many of the things we want to kill. Playing 8 fetches you should be able to have revolt more often than not when you need it (by lowering your average CMC as well it makes something like Deprive more playable which can also turn on Revolt though it's not really consistent there..., but I like it better than Countersquall MB imho, especially if the format slows down and the big mana decks become more of the meta). The side effect here by playing Push over more expensive spells like Cryptic/Terminate (which you can shave 1 of each np), is that your fetches can be saved more easily, since you need less mana to play your spells. My point is there is a big give and take. I'd rather lower my average CMC, reduce the damage I take from my lands, and play a less narrow counter in Deprive.
I might end up going to 3 Collective Brutality and 1 Filigree Familiar in my SB as I expect burn to creep up to 10%+ of the meta.
It helps to have such a visible pro playing our deck too. Nearly winning the GP was a big boon for us, especially since Corey has started streaming (twitch.tv/magician5), keeping his popularity up. He also posts a fair amount on channelfireball. Having a pro player to look to for meta adjustments is also a big deal for those that aren't great at deckbuilding, which should help our numbers.
The more resources we can get, the better.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
On that note, what would people look at bringing into tier 75 if Burn has an uptick? I've always found it to be a dreadful matchup even with a reasonable amount of SB hate and slight MD configuration for it. I'm currently lucky to be able to ignore it, since I'm fortunate though in that I haven't seen any Burn since I returned to my usual FNM spot. Very interested to hear others' take on it, though. Just the usual Sun Droplet? Vampiric Link? Collective Brutality? Dispel? Spellskite? Chill? (Oh wait…)
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Are people seriously thinking about cutting Bolts for Fatal Pushes? There's no way that can be correct.
Youtube Channel
Thanks for the reply. Looks like the main difference between our lists is a pack of Mana Leaks and Remands in place of the Ancestral Visions and Deprive/Logic Knot 1-ofs I'm running. I can only imagine how much that helps game 1.
I could never imagine cutting AV with all the midrange grindfests in my meta.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
I agree. I don't think bolt should ever leave the list. Bolt Snap Bolt when you're in a tough matchup saves the day. Replacing the already very decent creature removal that bolt has with a more powerful option won't replace that utility.
Youtube Channel
If the format slows down and a lot of people are playing Fatal Push, Burn is the biggest winner, not the big mana decks. I'd rather add a 3rd Brutality in my side than the 4th Fulminator imho. (Or if you want, I'd rather play 3 Fulminator / 1 Spreading Seas than 4 Fulminator) Honestly though, people are putting too much emphasis on Bolt. Are we a control deck or are we trying to be a piss-poor tempo deck? Bolt is good, but Push is better. You don't need to run 4 to be able to Bolt-Snap-Bolt.
it's not just a matter of burning people out. you can combine Bolt with other sources of damage like Kommand or combat damage. Snap plus bolt kills a Reality Smasher, snap plus Push doesn't.
also, to be frank, this deck IS also a piss-poor tempo deck when it needs to. burning people out is your number 1 plan in many, many g1's. (EDIT: and this is the reason why this deck isn't Tier 1)
if burn becomes big, then sure, I'm willing to play more Brutalities in the SB. this doesn't mean I can't and won't play the 4th Fulminator Mage as well. my list in the sig is not what I'm currently playing in leagues, although it's very close. I'm updating the sig soon-ish.
Youtube Channel
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
Try out the 1-off Pyromancer special.
Youtube Channel
The two I've tried out with varied success are 2 Vendilion Clique and 2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance. Clique is no strain on the mana because we run Cryptic anyways, and it fits nicely within a reactive, counterspell-friendly deck. It's super fragile, but any removal that finds it isn't finding your Snapcaster or Tar Pit (or Tasigur if they have to Path it), and cycling a card from their or your hand can be a huge swing in your favor. Chandra requires us to tap down 4 on our turn, which can be gross in a permission-heavy list. Her utility can vary greatly depending on what decks you're up against, but she can utterly dominate a match while being resistant to the vast majority of removal. Remember that she rolls herself up while generating card advantage or Shocking your opponent and building towards a very attainable, game-ending ultimate. If you cast her on 5, you can even roll her to 5 loyalty and ramp out a K-Command or Terminate to protect her. RR can stretch the colors a bit, although if we're running Anger we need to be able to generate it consistently anyways.
I haven't actually tried Young Pyromancer outside of Delver, but it's something worth considering. And of course don't forget you can always run say one Gurmag Angler alongside Tasigur. 3-1 doesn't seem to stretch the delve too thin. And finally remember that with Cryptic, AV, K-Command, Snapcaster, Thought Scour, and Serum Visions, we'll draw into our threats a lot more often than you'd normally think.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
I'll give the Clique a go and see if I like them. It is a sweet card though, flying is something this deck struggles with. Oh and I forgot my list is nearly identical to the Burkhart one. Just a tad different land base.
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun