I'm sure it's a horrible substitution but I can't really see getting any Ancestral Visions at the moment ($50 ea). I'm going to try Anticipate for card selection instead. It sucks when you control the board/game but can't find your win con in time. I'm hoping anticipate fills the role there. Currently running a list with Inquisition of Kozilek + Rise // Fall instead of Vision.
I really like the 4 Cryptic Commands in his list. The card created his most powerful plays. I am currently running 3 so I think that is fine. He mostly adjusted his sideboard to deal with the new/current menaces (Dredge/Infect). The matches were a blast to watch on camera. He knew all his lines and even commentary predicted his steps.
@Cheeshead88 Snaps and Tasigur then hope for the best.
if you want to play AV but don't have them then you still don't want to play bad substitutes. play something else. I would play Remand or, as mentioned, even think twice over anticipate
I'm sure it's a horrible substitution but I can't really see getting any Ancestral Visions at the moment ($50 ea). I'm going to try Anticipate for card selection instead. It sucks when you control the board/game but can't find your win con in time. I'm hoping anticipate fills the role there. Currently running a list with Inquisition of Kozilek + Rise // Fall instead of Vision.
I really like the 4 Cryptic Commands in his list. The card created his most powerful plays. I am currently running 3 so I think that is fine. He mostly adjusted his sideboard to deal with the new/current menaces (Dredge/Infect). The matches were a blast to watch on camera. He knew all his lines and even commentary predicted his steps.
@Cheeshead88 Snaps and Tasigur then hope for the best.
if you want to play AV but don't have them then you still don't want to play bad substitutes. play something else. I would play Remand or, as mentioned, even think twice over anticipate
Paying more than 1 mana for a cantrip that doesn't impact the board is awful. Serum Visions and Thought Scour is about as far as you want to go.
If you're really fishing (lol) for draw power, just play a Painful Truths.
"Awful" may be a bit overboard, we have seen successful lists running anticipate. The strength lies in instant speed card selection, and anticipate lets you move past land gluts or find answers on the opponent's endstep, or even in response to their threats.
Painful Truths is a closer substitute in turns of drawing, but it also hurts. With fastlands considerably reducing our self-hurt from lands, I suppose bolting ourselves for 3 cards becomes more acceptable.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I did run Anticipate as a 2-of for a while. It's a decent card, and I think it is criminally underplayed in modern. However, in a deck like Grixis which is chock-full of value, I rarely find myself searching for silver bullets.
If I was looking for a replacement for Ancestral Visions, I would go for Painful Truths or perhaps Night's Whisper even though the tax on life is especially bad for us.
Haven't gotten around to playtesting it yet but I'd like to use it (Anticipate) for card selection. Running Remand instead might be a better choice though. I can see it not being good vs a lot of 1 cmc decks (Hyper aggro etc). Maybe I'll leave it alone and stick with my 3 IoK 1 Rise//Fall. I like my chances of hitting 2 cards with Rise since aggressive decks run very little lands. I'm just not sure at the moment. It all comes down to playing a lot of games. Anyone else like discard in this deck? The list is in my signature.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
Haven't gotten around to playtesting it yet but I'd like to use it for card selection. Running Remand instead might be a better choice though. I can see it not being good vs a lot of 1 cmc decks (Hyper aggro etc). Maybe I'll leave it alone and stick with my 3 IoK 1 Rise//Fall. I like my chances of hitting 2 cards with Rise since aggressive decks run very little lands. I'm just not sure at the moment. It all comes down to playing a lot of games. Anyone else like discard in this deck? The list is in my signature.
I think that in Corey's list AVs are great and they make a lot of sense. This is just my philosophy, but if we are discarding AV and bring in other cards there is a big dynamical shift in the values of certain cards.
(I'm hedging heavily to have a game against Eldrazi and Junk with 2 SB Damnations, this could change with further testing)
without AVs you are not looking to come back into game from a bad position. your game plan now is instead to prevent your opponent from going under you. when you are not setting yourself behind in the early game with AV and play cheap interaction in its stead, this plan becomes easier as well.
Inquisition, Remand and Mana Leak are all certainly not amazing cards in their own right, but they set you up for your late game where Cryptic can take over. most importantly these cards are synergistic with eachother. Remand and Mana Leak means our opponent is more likely to hold cards in their hand for Inquisition. One Remand is usually enough to make Mana Leak live even in the late game. When the game drags on, you will start to find your Cryptics as well, and then cast them to counter spells when opponent succesfully plays around Leak and Remand. Of course Remand is also great against AVs, which might be more relevant now than it used to be.
Remand is pretty poor against the hyperaggressive decks of the format, but so is AV too. You will SB it out in many games for other cards.
EDIT: I have to add that with this list I have had great success against other control decks, even when they run the playset of AV.
Tiemuuu - What does Kalitas give the deck as opposed to running just the 3 Tasigur like Corey did? Have you played against the Corey version and if so how did your deck go without the AV? I like your singleton Countersquall, I think 2 like in Corey's list is too much in the main for my liking.
Tiemuuu - What does Kalitas give the deck as opposed to running just the 3 Tasigur like Corey did? Have you played against the Corey version and if so how did your deck go without the AV? I like your singleton Countersquall, I think 2 like in Corey's list is too much in the main for my liking.
well, there is a pretty big difference. Kalitas is, from my experience, the only realistic way to win against Dredge, Bant Eldrazi, Junk (when it draws multiple Lingering Souls) and Burn in G1s. It gives huge edge with pretty low opportunity cost, as having a big lifelinker is also valuable against any aggressive deck and even valakut-strategies. Really, and unchecked Kalitas wins against anything that runs creatures. I like Tasigur a lot too, and Kalitas and Tasigur are not really fighting over slots against each other. both have their own pros and cons. Tasigur is excellent where Kalitas is bad - against Combo and Control. I can't see myself cutting either. I just prefer 2 Tasigur in my list because with 3 there would be a much greater chance of getting Tasigur flooded, and I don't play Scours to enable a T2 Tasigur.
I haven't played a full match against the corey version of this deck, but I have played against control decks running AV with the above list (the only difference being +1 remand in the main and Countersquall being in the SB), and I have felt advantaged every time. I am looking to playtest against the Corey version too, of course. I'd imagine that MU will be more difficult than the regular control MUs.
My main problem with the card is you cannot snapcaster mage the card back.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I think AV is the type of the card you need either 4 or 0 of. 2 is probably not worth running since you could draw one later and it's completely trash. Unless you're playing with Jace and can discard it when it's worthless later in the game. It's a good card no doubt but requires a specific build where you can stall or control until it resolves (even on turn 1).
I guess the best thing to do is count the number of times you drew one later when you needed to suspend it turn 1 or 2. You're probably better off playing Remand or Think twice IMO.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
I think AV is the type of the card you need either 4 or 0 of. 2 is probably not worth running since you could draw one later and it's completely trash. Unless you're playing with Jace and can discard it when it's worthless later in the game. It's a good card no doubt but requires a specific build where you can stall or control until it resolves (even on turn 1).
I guess the best thing to do is count the number of times you drew one later when you needed to suspend it turn 1 or 2. You're probably better off playing Remand or Think twice IMO.
Personally I don't buy this argument, since I think drawing 2 in your opener is as bad as drawing into one late in the game. This is why I'm not a fan of AV myself.
it's not a very competitive choice in the modern metagame though
EDIT: also, whether you get to vast your AVs again or not is not makes or breaks the card. it's whether you even get to resolve the first one.
well, If you run 11 cantrips with 4 thoughtscour, it makes those milled ones much more viable to cast. replacing 1 cantrip with a GDD doesn't really change the function of Burkhart's list if you run something along the same lines as his list. I would agree it doesn't fit the meta game, but I would also argue that burkharts doesnt really either, he's just a phenomenal player that got some luck.
I guess the best thing to do is count the number of times you drew one later when you needed to suspend it turn 1 or 2. You're probably better off playing Remand or Think twice IMO.
Remand in a room full of infect and dredge is unplayable. Same goes with a 5 mana draw two.
AV is fine. I don't understand why so many are complaining about it. I'm not sure I'd want to play more than 2, but resolving one will often seal up a game.
____________________________________________
I'm back on Grixis after a few months of getting trucked by Eldrazi. There's a lot more people on Infect and Dredge right now -- MUs you can destroy. Fewer t2 TKS is a good thing.
I guess the best thing to do is count the number of times you drew one later when you needed to suspend it turn 1 or 2. You're probably better off playing Remand or Think twice IMO.
Remand in a room full of infect and dredge is unplayable. Same goes with a 5 mana draw two.
It's not a full room, more like 20% of the room at most. I still value the protection Remand gives against all the random combo, control and ramp decks in modern. the fact Remand is bad against Dredge isn't very damning in my opinion, since everything is bad there and you're pretty much poised to lose G1. Sure, Remand doesn't matter, but very few cards do. besides, even counters have value. Remanding their Cathartic Reunions is better than having nothing, since it drastically slows them down. Mana Leak and Snare would be even better, but still. You also need counters against Conflagrate and Remand is the best card for the job here.
If I played AV I'd play 2 as well, so here I agree.
I guess the best thing to do is count the number of times you drew one later when you needed to suspend it turn 1 or 2. You're probably better off playing Remand or Think twice IMO.
Remand in a room full of infect and dredge is unplayable. Same goes with a 5 mana draw two.
It's not a full room, more like 20% of the room at most. I still value the protection Remand gives against all the random combo, control and ramp decks in modern. the fact Remand is bad against Dredge isn't very damning in my opinion, since everything is bad there and you're pretty much poised to lose G1. Sure, Remand doesn't matter, but very few cards do. besides, even counters have value. Remanding their Cathartic Reunions is better than having nothing, since it drastically slows them down. Mana Leak and Snare would be even better, but still. You also need counters against Conflagrate and Remand is the best card for the job here.
Perhaps. I've found a decent g1 win % against Dredge simply because you can cryptic lock them and kill them in 2-3 turns. It's much better than Eldrazi or even Tron.
if you want to play AV but don't have them then you still don't want to play bad substitutes. play something else. I would play Remand or, as mentioned, even think twice over anticipate
Youtube Channel
Paying more than 1 mana for a cantrip that doesn't impact the board is awful. Serum Visions and Thought Scour is about as far as you want to go.
If you're really fishing (lol) for draw power, just play a Painful Truths.
Painful Truths is a closer substitute in turns of drawing, but it also hurts. With fastlands considerably reducing our self-hurt from lands, I suppose bolting ourselves for 3 cards becomes more acceptable.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
If I was looking for a replacement for Ancestral Visions, I would go for Painful Truths or perhaps Night's Whisper even though the tax on life is especially bad for us.
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
I think that in Corey's list AVs are great and they make a lot of sense. This is just my philosophy, but if we are discarding AV and bring in other cards there is a big dynamical shift in the values of certain cards.
My list right now:
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Spell Snare
4 Terminate
3 Kolaghan's Command
1 Electrolyze
3 Remand
2 Mana Leak
1 Countersquall
3 Cryptic Command
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Swamp
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Mountain
2 Drowned Catacomb
1 Spirebluff Canal
1 Blood Crypt
1 Thoughtseize
1 Rakdos Charm
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Dispel
1 Duress
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Painful Truths
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Dreadbore
2 Damnation
(I'm hedging heavily to have a game against Eldrazi and Junk with 2 SB Damnations, this could change with further testing)
without AVs you are not looking to come back into game from a bad position. your game plan now is instead to prevent your opponent from going under you. when you are not setting yourself behind in the early game with AV and play cheap interaction in its stead, this plan becomes easier as well.
Inquisition, Remand and Mana Leak are all certainly not amazing cards in their own right, but they set you up for your late game where Cryptic can take over. most importantly these cards are synergistic with eachother. Remand and Mana Leak means our opponent is more likely to hold cards in their hand for Inquisition. One Remand is usually enough to make Mana Leak live even in the late game. When the game drags on, you will start to find your Cryptics as well, and then cast them to counter spells when opponent succesfully plays around Leak and Remand. Of course Remand is also great against AVs, which might be more relevant now than it used to be.
Remand is pretty poor against the hyperaggressive decks of the format, but so is AV too. You will SB it out in many games for other cards.
EDIT: I have to add that with this list I have had great success against other control decks, even when they run the playset of AV.
Youtube Channel
well, there is a pretty big difference. Kalitas is, from my experience, the only realistic way to win against Dredge, Bant Eldrazi, Junk (when it draws multiple Lingering Souls) and Burn in G1s. It gives huge edge with pretty low opportunity cost, as having a big lifelinker is also valuable against any aggressive deck and even valakut-strategies. Really, and unchecked Kalitas wins against anything that runs creatures. I like Tasigur a lot too, and Kalitas and Tasigur are not really fighting over slots against each other. both have their own pros and cons. Tasigur is excellent where Kalitas is bad - against Combo and Control. I can't see myself cutting either. I just prefer 2 Tasigur in my list because with 3 there would be a much greater chance of getting Tasigur flooded, and I don't play Scours to enable a T2 Tasigur.
I haven't played a full match against the corey version of this deck, but I have played against control decks running AV with the above list (the only difference being +1 remand in the main and Countersquall being in the SB), and I have felt advantaged every time. I am looking to playtest against the Corey version too, of course. I'd imagine that MU will be more difficult than the regular control MUs.
Youtube Channel
My main problem with the card is you cannot snapcaster mage the card back.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Tiemuuu - Was just playing devils advocate, I tend to agree with your assessment on Kal.
you could always run goblin dark-dwellers as a 1-2 of. I've used it, its fun.
it's not a very competitive choice in the modern metagame though
EDIT: also, whether you get to vast your AVs again or not is not makes or breaks the card. it's whether you even get to resolve the first one.
Youtube Channel
I guess the best thing to do is count the number of times you drew one later when you needed to suspend it turn 1 or 2. You're probably better off playing Remand or Think twice IMO.
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
Personally I don't buy this argument, since I think drawing 2 in your opener is as bad as drawing into one late in the game. This is why I'm not a fan of AV myself.
Youtube Channel
well, If you run 11 cantrips with 4 thoughtscour, it makes those milled ones much more viable to cast. replacing 1 cantrip with a GDD doesn't really change the function of Burkhart's list if you run something along the same lines as his list. I would agree it doesn't fit the meta game, but I would also argue that burkharts doesnt really either, he's just a phenomenal player that got some luck.
Remand in a room full of infect and dredge is unplayable. Same goes with a 5 mana draw two.
AV is fine. I don't understand why so many are complaining about it. I'm not sure I'd want to play more than 2, but resolving one will often seal up a game.
____________________________________________
I'm back on Grixis after a few months of getting trucked by Eldrazi. There's a lot more people on Infect and Dredge right now -- MUs you can destroy. Fewer t2 TKS is a good thing.
4x Serum Visions
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Spell Snare
2x Ancestral Vision
1x Dispel
2x Mana Leak
3x Terminate
1x Dreadbore
2x Kolaghan's Command
1x Anger of the Gods
3x Cryptic Command
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1x Gurmag Angler
2x Shriekmaw
3x Polluted Delta
1x Steam Vents
1x Watery Grave
1x Blood Crypt
2x Sulfur Falls
2x Spirebluf Canal
1x Darkslick Shores
2x Creeping Tarpit
3x Island
1x Mountain
1x Swamp
1x Spellskite
1x Negate
1x Flashfreeze
1x Slay
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Fleshbag Marauder
1x Thoughtseize
1x Collective Brutality
1x Olivia Voldaren
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Rakdos Charm
2x Fulminator Mage
2x Izzet Staticaster
It's not a full room, more like 20% of the room at most. I still value the protection Remand gives against all the random combo, control and ramp decks in modern. the fact Remand is bad against Dredge isn't very damning in my opinion, since everything is bad there and you're pretty much poised to lose G1. Sure, Remand doesn't matter, but very few cards do. besides, even counters have value. Remanding their Cathartic Reunions is better than having nothing, since it drastically slows them down. Mana Leak and Snare would be even better, but still. You also need counters against Conflagrate and Remand is the best card for the job here.
If I played AV I'd play 2 as well, so here I agree.
Youtube Channel
Perhaps. I've found a decent g1 win % against Dredge simply because you can cryptic lock them and kill them in 2-3 turns. It's much better than Eldrazi or even Tron.
Let the haters and the "he-got-lucky"ers hate. The deck is great, people just need to pick it up, play and tune it according to expected metas.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past