what are your reasons to not play cryptic command?
His list is absolutely stuffed with unforgiving double reds (anger, pkn), double blacks (lily, kalitas) and even clique is at double blue. It would be pretty suicidal to also include triple blue.
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I have been trying 1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance in standard Grixis (I know it is not the same) but she has been pretty underwhelming. However Grixis standard is much more draw-go control than our Grixis midrange lists. I wouldn't include Chandra in any modern draw-go deck. If anything, I can only see her in tap-out style grixis decks with 0-2 counters. Even then though, she feels kinda fragile since she can't really kill tarmos or bigger threats or a wide board which is likely to happen at T4. I would be interested to hear your results though, I might try her myself, for now though she doesn't feel like she can offer much unfortunately.
what are your reasons to not play cryptic command?
His list is absolutely stuffed with unforgiving double reds (anger, pkn), double blacks (lily, kalitas) and even clique is at double blue. It would be pretty suicidal to also include triple blue.
This is absolutely part of it. There's also the fact that my list is very slanted towards tapping out. I have plenty of things to do in main phase which is why I run NO counters in the main deck.
As for Chandra, Torch of Defiance. I have some and wanted to try her out, but came to the conclusion that she only helps matchups that are already positive. I'd rather fix bad matchups than make good ones better!
what are your reasons to not play cryptic command?
His list is absolutely stuffed with unforgiving double reds (anger, pkn), double blacks (lily, kalitas) and even clique is at double blue. It would be pretty suicidal to also include triple blue.
This is absolutely part of it. There's also the fact that my list is very slanted towards tapping out. I have plenty of things to do in main phase which is why I run NO counters in the main deck.
As for Chandra, Torch of Defiance. I have some and wanted to try her out, but came to the conclusion that she only helps matchups that are already positive. I'd rather fix bad matchups than make good ones better!
The flame slash ability seems attractive to me since you can kill a lot of creatures post combat with it. (Plus it makes cards like k-command and electrolyze kill toughness 5 creatures.) Something I'm considering.
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New Liliana is sweet. She kills little stuff and grinds when you're up against Jund or Abzan. I've never been a fan of Liliana of the Veil though, especially if you're running countermagic. It's just such a nonbo and she gets much worse if you don't have other hand disruption.
As for Ashiok, I'm just not sure it's good enough. Ashiok is only good against very specific decks and there are generally better options imo.
Yes, you should play Serum Visions. Scrying is sweet and one of the few ways left of setting up your draws. Depending on your list you should play both it and Thought Scour. If your list can't support both, I'd recommend dropping Thought Scour and keeping Serum Visions, rather than the other way around.
Hi to everybody!
I haven't seen this question in the last few pages of this thread, so I try to ask. What about planeswalkers in grixis control?
I mean, I love PW since they are a continuous source of (card)advantage, but which of them is really good?
In my build I find very good the new Liliana: she does simply too much to be left out. But a friend of mine has suggest me both the new Chandra and Liliana of the Veil: they are strong, but they fit grixis control/midrange build? And what about Ashiok?
Thanks for the help to make me understand and sorry for mistakes and my english
Ps: one last thing: serum visions is really so awesome? Because I personally don't use it, preferring thought scour
Thank you both for the answers!
JVP occupies always 2-3 slots in my builds, because it is just too powerful. New liliana takes two slots in my list. So I have a "total" 4-5 slots for PW maindeck. It's enough/too much?
From your answers I've also catch that new Chandra isn't so cool right now.
My question about serum visions starts because in my opinion scrying effects loss lot of power with fetch lands: why am I wrong?
About though scour, I use 4 of them to help snapcasters to find "material" for work, and also to help the casting for the two tasigurs early game: they are too much and is still better change them with serum visions?
Thanks for all the help this thread is beautiful and perhaps I have finally found "my" deck! Thank you so much
thought scour is perfectly fine to use in midrange list, but I feel like you should be playing Gurmag Angler if you are using it to apply more pressure. You list of Jace/Liliana is fine (I use 3 Jace, 2 Liliana). I run Chandra, Torch of Defiance as a 1 of for now and I have found her to be perfectly fine in my list since her flame slash ability/card adv is game in a decent amount of matchups when she lands. Srcy affects GAIN power with fetchlands since you can fetch away what you scryed to shuffle your deck. (for example if you srcy 2 lands it might be a good time to fetch to shuffle the lands back into your deck) There have been lists that do well with Liliana of the Veil but again you kinda have to build around her with like 5 delve creatures and 3 Jace so the discarded cards are useful to you. Hope this helps and keep in mind that these are just my opinions, others in the threat might be able to give more informed thoughts. Ob Nixilis Reignited is a nice sideboard planeswalker for the midrange/control matchups like: Bant eldrazi, abzan, jund, jeskai control, UW Control.
Thought Scour is very good in lists with both Snap and Jace (and your singleton GDD). Playing some Tasigurs makes me want to have two or three somewhere in the 60.
Personally, I would cut Shriekmaw for Angler. You've already got 4 Bolts, 3 Terminate, 3 Kommand, a Dreadbore and a Murderous Cut. How many more removal spells do you really need? I understand the fun synergies with Kommand and Evoke, but I just don't think it's really worth it.
I would like to play grixis control in my fnms but I cant find a 'ideal list'. It is a really hard deck to build
There are no ideal lists. Grixis is suboptimal atm, all we can do is try to adjust the deck to our respective metas, and discuss different strategies/cards to use against T1 decks. We really need some more bones thrown our way from WotC as the decks we prey on aren't really the best anymore, and our weakness is what many T1 decks are built around.
That said, the deck is still loads of fun to play, and with a decent pilot it offers a lot of potential.
Just to give you some list I've been using for a while. This list is first that I have developed: it contains some elements tipical of control decks, expecially countermagic. After finding twice in a row decks with cavern of souls (I guess you have figured out which deck we're talking about. Yes, let's say it all together... Bant eldrazi!), I feel pretty disappointed with my counters. So I start develop a more midrange list, with no counterspells.
You can see some difference:
-I have added more hand distruption, to face in some way the unfair matchups (which are almost all). So in vendilion Clique, rise // fall and full set of inquisitions
-Added shriekmaw. I saw this improvement some post ago, by another user, and I think is sweet!
-Collective brutality is just what we need to take some breath in hard matchups like burn, in which a gain life MD is always welcome
Now, the questions:
1-As you can see, no serum visions are present, so I think I must cut on thought scours, as suggested before. Am I right?
2-There is the possibility to add, always by previous suggestions, gurmag angler and Chandra, torch of defiance. But what can I cut? The only options in my opinion is to cut GDD and AV, but I love that synergy! (I've got also boom and bust in sideboard with another GDD)
3-what do you think about the lists? I must stay on counters no matter bant eldrazi is one of the most played decks right now?
Any of your suggestions is really welcome
Ciao
Not a fan of Goblin Dark-Dwellers right now whatsoever. Why play a 5 drop that needs the graveyard when all of our strongest creatures when graveyard hate is at it's greatest. (I think the boom/bust dwellers is the only viable way to play it) Also not a fan of Ancestral Vision in our deck. We already out grind all other decks so why do we need to play it? I would replace it with new chandra as a 1-2 of.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Personally, I would cut Shriekmaw for Angler. You've already got 4 Bolts, 3 Terminate, 3 Kommand, a Dreadbore and a Murderous Cut. How many more removal spells do you really need? I understand the fun synergies with Kommand and Evoke, but I just don't think it's really worth it.
Maybe I can mantain shriekmaw and take out another removal? Because, with the little exception of Murderous cut, all my removals are red, being in this way not able to kill Master of waves.
Is it worth to take out a terminate for it? 4 Bolts are a red staple, and Kommand is a big help maindeck against affinity (thinking that 3 for it is a good number).
What do you think about it?
Any Master of waves experience? Because mine is two terminates in hand and a master of waves, with is crew, happy to attack me.
Collective Brutality hits Master, and you're running 2. It's more none-Red removal than Grixis lists have been running the last year. You also have Liliana, the Last Hope to kill Master. You're just fine against Master.
This. Is Master of waves so prevalent that you have to have so many ways to kill it? So far it seems like you've got plenty of ways and Shriekmaw is just very slow and clunky.
Seeing that there are little burn and some GBx and Jeskai control decks in my LGS I decided to play 1 Chandra main instead of a Collective Brutallity.
Quick report:
Round 1 - Ad Nauseam 1-2
He arrives 15 minutes late so he has a game lost. He sits and proceed to destroy me in 2 quick games
Is very hard to win this match without counterspells. On the 3rd game (the first with SB), he killed me when I was attacking with letal (he was at -2 with the phyrexian enchantment in play)
Round 2 - Dredge 2-0
I had my oppononent on my side on the first round so I knew he was on dregde. I mulligan the first game knowing this and that plus a bad dredge from his lonely Trol allowed me to kill him with a quick Tasigur.
On the second game I had Surgical in hand. He plays Faithless Looting and discard Trol and Amalgam. I play a land and a serum visions and kept a Snapcaster on top. I proceed to exile his trol seeing a hand with lands and 2 bloodghasts. He draws a Cathartic Reunion and plays it discarding the 2 bloodghasts. I draw, play a land and play Snapcaster -> Surgical their Bloodghasts. He concedes after my 3rd turn Tasigur.
Round 3 - Affinity
He has a good hand, but me on the play and a Tasigur on the second turn threads to race him. I would have won if he didn't draw the second black mana to insta-equip the plate to a new creature when I killed the one with the equipment.
2nd and 3rd games where very similar. This time I draw some Kolaghan's Command and replaying them with Jace and Snapcaster is too much for Affinity.
Round 4 - Jeskai Control (without Nahiri)
I knew he wasn't playing Nahiri from a previous scouting. This information helps a lot, because playing with the fear of a Nahiri is a handicap.
The first game was a very large game. I transformed a Jace and threatened to ultimate him. He was trying to kill him with Colonnades whike I try to kill them with terminates. He finaly plays a Sphinx's Revelation of 4 and races the jace (I was at low life from my own lands and a pair of Colonnade attacks.
We have 15 minutes for the remaining 2 games. I begin the second one with a second turn Tasigur that kills him in short pace (he has SB out a lot of removal).
Knowing that we would not finish the 3rd game I concede to him (he was 2-0-1) for half the prize he won.
The deck performed well, but I missed having some counters in some games. I can't help it, I love countermagic
I guess I will come back to a version with some countermagic. I also want to try Thing in the Ice (I play UW Control and I know what a 0/4 can do against aggresive decks)
I think if you are going to be playing scour, you should be at 4-5 delve cards.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
I was playing one main because my second Liliana was on the mail. I don't think is a bad card to have: she draws you cards, kills planeswalkers and is a fast clock (you win the turn you ultimate her or the next one), but I guess Liliana, the Last Hope plays better with our game plan.
I keep one Chandra in the side against midrange/control decks
it seems to me she is at least one level below Kalitas. Kalitas is pretty much your only way to win against Dredge, Eldrazi and Lingering Souls (pre board). personally I'd just play more Kalitas.
Is anyone playing Grixis Control or has it fallen by the wayside in favor of Delver? I still have mine together but haven't played FNM is forever. I'm curious to know if it's still doing good. It looks like everyone has been trying to combat speed by adding Collective Brutality in some number. I think the deck is just fine but it still lacks a powerful creature to close out games. Tasigur isn't Goyf and just isn't fast enough to deploy sometimes. This deck really needs Innocent Blood I think. I'd love to see that card again and think it might work great with Pyromancer.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
Grixis Delver is better positioned right now, anyway, unless you find a meta filled of burn and Dredge, u are fine. And to beat dredge just throw in your side 3x Anger of the gods and 1 Rakdos Charm and you get some odds.
Is anyone playing Grixis Control or has it fallen by the wayside in favor of Delver? I still have mine together but haven't played FNM is forever. I'm curious to know if it's still doing good. It looks like everyone has been trying to combat speed by adding Collective Brutality in some number. I think the deck is just fine but it still lacks a powerful creature to close out games. Tasigur isn't Goyf and just isn't fast enough to deploy sometimes. This deck really needs Innocent Blood I think. I'd love to see that card again and think it might work great with Pyromancer.
@Tiemuuu, are you rockin to some success?
I am still playing with this deck yes. I haven't had much fun time at my local game store but that's because the metagame is pretty degenerate here (bogles, tron players using Choke(!?)), and my luck with pairings has been horrible. this Wednesday I played against 2 naya burn and 1 RG tron. 1-2 drop. I'm most likely playing this deck in the upcoming RPTQs still. Bant Eldrazi and Junk make me a little distressed but luck's what this format is about anyway. might rock an additional Damnation in the SB for these MUs. My SB plans are still on the development phase - these are many things which to improve on, and I will look into these things when the tournament gets closer.
His list is absolutely stuffed with unforgiving double reds (anger, pkn), double blacks (lily, kalitas) and even clique is at double blue. It would be pretty suicidal to also include triple blue.
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UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
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BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
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This is absolutely part of it. There's also the fact that my list is very slanted towards tapping out. I have plenty of things to do in main phase which is why I run NO counters in the main deck.
As for Chandra, Torch of Defiance. I have some and wanted to try her out, but came to the conclusion that she only helps matchups that are already positive. I'd rather fix bad matchups than make good ones better!
he is a midrange jace deck. Why would he play cryptic?
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
The flame slash ability seems attractive to me since you can kill a lot of creatures post combat with it. (Plus it makes cards like k-command and electrolyze kill toughness 5 creatures.) Something I'm considering.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/grixis-jace-2/
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
As for Ashiok, I'm just not sure it's good enough. Ashiok is only good against very specific decks and there are generally better options imo.
Yes, you should play Serum Visions. Scrying is sweet and one of the few ways left of setting up your draws. Depending on your list you should play both it and Thought Scour. If your list can't support both, I'd recommend dropping Thought Scour and keeping Serum Visions, rather than the other way around.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Thought scour is more for delver decks since they want to power out delve creatures, Veil isn't very good in modern right now so you can run some split of Veil/last hope, ashiok is garbage right now since Last hope does what she does but way better. The best planeswalkers in grixis are: Liliana, the last hope, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, Liliana of the Veil, Chandra, Torch of Defiance and Ob Nixilis Reignited in that order imho.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
thought scour is perfectly fine to use in midrange list, but I feel like you should be playing Gurmag Angler if you are using it to apply more pressure. You list of Jace/Liliana is fine (I use 3 Jace, 2 Liliana). I run Chandra, Torch of Defiance as a 1 of for now and I have found her to be perfectly fine in my list since her flame slash ability/card adv is game in a decent amount of matchups when she lands. Srcy affects GAIN power with fetchlands since you can fetch away what you scryed to shuffle your deck. (for example if you srcy 2 lands it might be a good time to fetch to shuffle the lands back into your deck) There have been lists that do well with Liliana of the Veil but again you kinda have to build around her with like 5 delve creatures and 3 Jace so the discarded cards are useful to you. Hope this helps and keep in mind that these are just my opinions, others in the threat might be able to give more informed thoughts. Ob Nixilis Reignited is a nice sideboard planeswalker for the midrange/control matchups like: Bant eldrazi, abzan, jund, jeskai control, UW Control.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Personally, I would cut Shriekmaw for Angler. You've already got 4 Bolts, 3 Terminate, 3 Kommand, a Dreadbore and a Murderous Cut. How many more removal spells do you really need? I understand the fun synergies with Kommand and Evoke, but I just don't think it's really worth it.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
There are no ideal lists. Grixis is suboptimal atm, all we can do is try to adjust the deck to our respective metas, and discuss different strategies/cards to use against T1 decks. We really need some more bones thrown our way from WotC as the decks we prey on aren't really the best anymore, and our weakness is what many T1 decks are built around.
That said, the deck is still loads of fun to play, and with a decent pilot it offers a lot of potential.
Not a fan of Goblin Dark-Dwellers right now whatsoever. Why play a 5 drop that needs the graveyard when all of our strongest creatures when graveyard hate is at it's greatest. (I think the boom/bust dwellers is the only viable way to play it) Also not a fan of Ancestral Vision in our deck. We already out grind all other decks so why do we need to play it? I would replace it with new chandra as a 1-2 of.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
This. Is Master of waves so prevalent that you have to have so many ways to kill it? So far it seems like you've got plenty of ways and Shriekmaw is just very slow and clunky.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
I think if you are going to be playing scour, you should be at 4-5 delve cards.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
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it seems to me she is at least one level below Kalitas. Kalitas is pretty much your only way to win against Dredge, Eldrazi and Lingering Souls (pre board). personally I'd just play more Kalitas.
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@Tiemuuu, are you rockin to some success?
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
BURGrixis ControlBUR
BURGrixis DelverBUR (RIP)
UWBEsper GiftsUWB
UWUW Jace ControlUW
GUBSultai ControlGUB
UBTezzeret Agent of BolasUB
I am still playing with this deck yes. I haven't had much fun time at my local game store but that's because the metagame is pretty degenerate here (bogles, tron players using Choke(!?)), and my luck with pairings has been horrible. this Wednesday I played against 2 naya burn and 1 RG tron. 1-2 drop. I'm most likely playing this deck in the upcoming RPTQs still. Bant Eldrazi and Junk make me a little distressed but luck's what this format is about anyway. might rock an additional Damnation in the SB for these MUs. My SB plans are still on the development phase - these are many things which to improve on, and I will look into these things when the tournament gets closer.
Youtube Channel