If Nahiri was the amazing nuclear bomb she is being made out to be, you'd expect to see even 1 copy somewhere in some top 8. This isn't the case, however and bodes pretty ill for durdle decks in general. Well, WotC was pretty upfront about how they want modern to be like.
Nahiri has made Top 8 in several Modern Opens, GP's I can't say for sure off top of my head.
Not that we want to go any further back, because we're playing in the meta now, not the meta before July.
*Modern Open as you claim, or GP or 3* event and above.
On 8-20-2016, a Mardu Nahiri deck T8 SCG Open in Somerset, granted it's not the more common Jeskai version, but your statement was Nahiri decks, look I'm not saying it's the best deck either one they aren't but it isn't trash either, Nahiri also was in several decks making a lot of T16's and T32's at Gp's and such.
If Nahiri was the amazing nuclear bomb she is being made out to be, you'd expect to see even 1 copy somewhere in some top 8. This isn't the case, however and bodes pretty ill for durdle decks in general. Well, WotC was pretty upfront about how they want modern to be like.
Nahiri has made Top 8 in several Modern Opens, GP's I can't say for sure off top of my head.
Not that we want to go any further back, because we're playing in the meta now, not the meta before July.
*Modern Open as you claim, or GP or 3* event and above.
On 8-20-2016, a Mardu Nahiri deck T8 SCG Open in Somerset, granted it's not the more common Jeskai version, but your statement was Nahiri decks, look I'm not saying it's the best deck either one they aren't but it isn't trash either, Nahiri also was in several decks making a lot of T16's and T32's at Gp's and such.
Maybe instead of trying to argue on the really specific things and semantics, you could take the operative meaning of my post which is: Control is in a bad way.
Do you agree or disagree with this or not?
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If Nahiri was the amazing nuclear bomb she is being made out to be, you'd expect to see even 1 copy somewhere in some top 8. This isn't the case, however and bodes pretty ill for durdle decks in general. Well, WotC was pretty upfront about how they want modern to be like.
Nahiri has made Top 8 in several Modern Opens, GP's I can't say for sure off top of my head.
Not that we want to go any further back, because we're playing in the meta now, not the meta before July.
*Modern Open as you claim, or GP or 3* event and above.
On 8-20-2016, a Mardu Nahiri deck T8 SCG Open in Somerset, granted it's not the more common Jeskai version, but your statement was Nahiri decks, look I'm not saying it's the best deck either one they aren't but it isn't trash either, Nahiri also was in several decks making a lot of T16's and T32's at Gp's and such.
Maybe instead of trying to argue on the really specific things and semantics, you could take the operative meaning of my post which is: Control is in a bad way.
Do you agree or disagree with this or not?
Are you trying to say control in modern in general is in a tough spot? or that you think it's outright bad? I agree it's tough for control decks in modern right now, but I do think Nahiri has actually helped a bit, so has the unbanning of AV, but overall the linear Aggro decks are at an advantage overall in the format and the numbers bear that out, with Midrange and combo sprinkled in as well as a bit of control.
What is needed to make blue-based-control a 'more' viable archetype... Specifically grixis
Is it just [[Counterspell]], because I don't think that is happening.
Does Grixis need better life gain?
What would you want to see that would immediately improve the life of a grixis Mage?
And yes, I get Jeskai nahiri puts results up. You'll see a random esper or UW control top a GP. But I'm saying to get in the tier 1 discussion platform. How many thing need to happen to get there?
What is needed to make blue-based-control a 'more' viable archetype... Specifically grixis
Is it just [[Counterspell]], because I don't think that is happening.
Does Grixis need better life gain?
What would you want to see that would immediately improve the life of a grixis Mage?
And yes, I get Jeskai nahiri puts results up. You'll see a random esper or UW control top a GP. But I'm saying to get in the tier 1 discussion platform. How many thing need to happen to get there?
in my experience we have an alright time actually controlling the game but fail to close it out, eventually we just run out of steam, lose the top deck war or our opponents stabilise and win. i think we need a cheap cruel ultimatum or something that once we play it becomes very hard for us to lose. our 4 and 5 drop creatures just arent doing the job, delve creatures and reveler aren't performing, kalitas sometimes under performs, GDD is great but as a 5 drop is a bit annoying. looking forward to chandra, i feel like she'll help a lot. I also feel that in a deck playing black that isn't playing bob or LotV, we should maybe be playing a UR shell and splashing black?
The problem isn't with blue in this format. Blue is very powerful. and it doesn't need another control piece like a cheaper cruel ultimatum. Grix mages need a way to do damage early and consistently.
It's the mentality that people are using to build these lists, and I was one of them until I understood how the perfoming decks in this format work. it is that people need to realize that there are too many threats to use the Draw-Go-Respond method without having a bomb to lay that ends the game when it hits the board, and that if need be, can be played quickly.
The top tier decks in the format are already on a turn 4-5 win when they are uninhibited. That is too fast to not respond to, and too slow to not have some damage ticking against a lot of decks, because they'll just run into more threats and just peck you to death. I would argue that having a build that allows a threat early game is a better method of control because your opponent has to respond to that threat instead of only concentrating on damaging you, allowing you more time to build your own control, and find more of your own threats. This is especially true against the decks that you need to race to win, that option needs to be clearly and consistently available. That build mentality of "Oh i'll just have all the answers" will never work without having the capability to close the game faster, because that IS the answer to a lot of matchups. That is why nahiri just straight up has a terrible time against some decks, she only has late game win conditions.
Chandra will help, but chandra is still not nahiri, and at best, playing a list that can't deal consistent damage early will only ever run into the same problems that nahiri decks have.
I actually like it.
3 Mana is a "mini" kitchen finks that draws you a card instead of returning to the battlefield. Not that great but it actually might work.
Gain a little life. Cycle himself. And if u want to kcommand it back it gains a lot of value. Its not great but could see it being played. We should not understimate it.
It gains us life and draws us a card when it dies. It can block Etched Champion and you can return it with Kommand to start a chain.
not powerful enough for 3 cmc for the little room we have.
Its one of the best things u can do against Burn since you don't have Finks. Lifegain attached to a body PLUS value-on-death was something exclusive to GW: Finks, Obstinate Baloth (discard instead of death), Thragtusk. Now we actually have a URB-playable version. I wouldn't write it off so quickly.
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Alright, so. after this whole debate on what we need, the speed we need, and actually some of the points that Geneluth expressed about components of control that actually make control, control, I've put a list together that I think is pretty bad ass and works.
give it a try before you criticize. I've already playtested it against tron and jund and it seems it can just stomp.
I just love smallpox. I think its easily one of the most powerful cards ever printed. but it needs to be built around.
Also, I think this kind of deck list is really where Jace, vryn's prodigy can shine, because you potentially can be in situations with less mana, jace's slow route is more beneficial than recasting things from your graveyard with a 2+ cmc bump that snapcaster requires. because of that, I think discard is more beneficial than counter, considering you can't snap your instants back, you might as well have a strong control play on your turn.
Also, this kind of land set up actually makes path to exile almost welcome. because it allows you to maintain a higher land count.
I chose young pyromancer over delver of secrets because I think that the potential need for recursion may be stronger with him. a pyromancer on a field that sticks will almost always produce a token the turn after he sticks, and delver needs to flip. Also, the decks that can play rest in peace, and blood moon usually have either weenie threats that young pyromancer can pump out to match, or you want to be able to cast your pyromancer in blood moon and use your limited swamps and islands for control casting while utlizing blood moon to cast him. I also don't want to need a lot of islands because of the control shell being mainly R/B and the cantrip/reuse coming from U. Also, pyromancer works better with smallpox. drop a token, get a token. Delver may just be better due to lower cmc,evasion capabilities, and damage, but it needs testing for sure.
I don't feel like explaining the delve creatures and how they are our best option...again, but what I will do is I will say how aweeeeesooome it is to recur fetches from the graveyard with grim discovery to be able to feed an extra card to the graveyard with a land drop.
I tried bloodghast before pyromancer and I didn't it like it. I don't want to worry about having to lay a land to get a threat out, and he can't block, you will be delving a lot and he will conflict that decision. He works really well with smallpox and because its got a mana base for casting that, casting him wasn't a problem, but I found him lackluster in power and redundant with the GY recursion. I don't want to have to concentrate on dredging or needing a thought scour to effectively get him into play. I can cast pyromancer without half those qualms,, If you have a kommand or grim in hand with pyromancer or need to race, that's when you keep him in your GY, and when he sticks he's easily better.
I thought about liliana, the last hope, she might fit in here somewhere or in the least the side. she seems good with this style of recursion, I just haven't had the time to playtest with her in the list.
I'd suggest giving it a try, I think you will be impressed with how well it does, I know I am.
if ever there was a sweet thing to re-use with JVP if we chose him over snap, it would be Rise // Fall. You could consider it in place of Grim Discovery. It can recur your creatures while bouncing the opponents. You're not running snaps so bounce snap and return tas isn't a thing, but still. And then the other side is as close to Hymn to Tourach as you can get in Modern.
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So does anyone think insidious will deserves a spot in the 75? I think 1 or 2 copies might be fine. The ability to copy an opposing cryptic command or any opposing spell is big and for less cost. The counter ability, though might be a bit over costed is still useable, while the last ability isn't half bad as well.
if ever there was a sweet thing to re-use with JVP if we chose him over snap, it would be Rise // Fall. You could consider it in place of Grim Discovery. It can recur your creatures while bouncing the opponents. You're not running snaps so bounce snap and return tas isn't a thing, but still. And then the other side is as close to Hymn to Tourach as you can get in Modern.
I love that card, but with smallpox, you need the land recurrence, I'm not sure if it needs 3x grim, but atleast 2. you always want to be able to cast a smallpox turn 2 if you have it, it can just win the game that turn, ESPECIALLY if you're on the play.
this deck needs a lot of tweaking, and has a lot of room for improvement. I really like the aspect of the land lock, the recurrence, along with the speed and utility, it may just not be as good as a standard delve/delver spell snare+ mana leak shell, but it does have some of the same aspects that I think are a different representation.
So does anyone think insidious will deserves a spot in the 75? I think 1 or 2 copies might be fine. The ability to copy an opposing cryptic command or any opposing spell is big and for less cost. The counter ability, though might be a bit over costed is still useable, while the last ability isn't half bad as well.
What do you guys think?
I think its good. but its no cryptic command, and we don't have room for a 5th cryptic command. If you run 2-3 cryptic commands, its usually because of the 4cmc, and not necessarily the 3U. it does have some unique uses that are powerful, like 2x bolt on turn 5. But with the double options cryptic command provides, I don't this card is as good in my opinion. Maybe if you're running 3x cryptic, drop 1 for this? maybe? Idk. needs testing.
if ever there was a sweet thing to re-use with JVP if we chose him over snap, it would be Rise // Fall. You could consider it in place of Grim Discovery. It can recur your creatures while bouncing the opponents. You're not running snaps so bounce snap and return tas isn't a thing, but still. And then the other side is as close to Hymn to Tourach as you can get in Modern.
I love that card, but with smallpox, you need the land recurrence, I'm not sure if it needs 3x grim, but atleast 2. you always want to be able to cast a smallpox turn 2 if you have it, it can just win the game that turn, ESPECIALLY if you're on the play.
this deck needs a lot of tweaking, and has a lot of room for improvement. I really like the aspect of the land lock, the recurrence, along with the speed and utility, it may just not be as good as a standard delve/delver spell snare+ mana leak shell, but it does have some of the same aspects that I think are a different representation.
well, IMHO if you really want to work with Smallpox, why rely on 1-or-2-use sorcery spells. Just play Crucible of Worlds and go nuts. You can then save JVP's loyalty for MORE smallpoxing instead of spending resources in equal measure to retaining your footing while disrupting the opponent's.
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I would sideboard it for grindy decks, but we already are pretty good against these decks.
Its jank. For 4 CMC you're competing with Cryptic, and Cryptic lets you choose 2 modes, often countering a spell and then drawing, which is awesome value. It can even timewalk which is invaluable.
The 2 cmc charms as they stand see so little play; what chance has this spell got at 4 cmc? From what we can observe, option-style spells must allow more than 1 mode to be chosen for them to become viable: Collective Brutality, Kommand, Cryptic have shown us this. At the same time, the cost cannot be prohibitive unless the value is incredible: Ojutai's Command and Silumgar's Command are good examples of overcosted ones with weak options, while Cryptic makes the cut because of its comparatively more powerful options.
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Well besides Chandra, Torch of Defiance wizards DID give Grixis a new way to win with the Madcap Experiment + Platinum Emperion combo. Emperion is also protected by Stubborn denial and is set up well by a good blood moon since Emperion turns off your fetchlands. Maybe it's too janky but it's worth talking about. The combo also gives us GREAT game against aggro/burn decks which we struggle against. (It's horrible against infect though)
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
So does anyone think insidious will deserves a spot in the 75? I think 1 or 2 copies might be fine. The ability to copy an opposing cryptic command or any opposing spell is big and for less cost. The counter ability, though might be a bit over costed is still useable, while the last ability isn't half bad as well.
if ever there was a sweet thing to re-use with JVP if we chose him over snap, it would be Rise // Fall. You could consider it in place of Grim Discovery. It can recur your creatures while bouncing the opponents. You're not running snaps so bounce snap and return tas isn't a thing, but still. And then the other side is as close to Hymn to Tourach as you can get in Modern.
I love that card, but with smallpox, you need the land recurrence, I'm not sure if it needs 3x grim, but atleast 2. you always want to be able to cast a smallpox turn 2 if you have it, it can just win the game that turn, ESPECIALLY if you're on the play.
this deck needs a lot of tweaking, and has a lot of room for improvement. I really like the aspect of the land lock, the recurrence, along with the speed and utility, it may just not be as good as a standard delve/delver spell snare+ mana leak shell, but it does have some of the same aspects that I think are a different representation.
well, IMHO if you really want to work with Smallpox, why rely on 1-or-2-use sorcery spells. Just play Crucible of Worlds and go nuts. You can then save JVP's loyalty for MORE smallpoxing instead of spending resources in equal measure to retaining your footing while disrupting the opponent's.
I don't want the deck to be loam. Smallpox is the grind route, YP and delve creatures are the fast route, grim works well in either case, especially with fulminator. Crucible does not and costs more.
Well besides Chandra, Torch of Defiance wizards DID give Grixis a new way to win with the Madcap Experiment + Platinum Emperion combo. Emperion is also protected by Stubborn denial and is set up well by a good blood moon since Emperion turns off your fetchlands. Maybe it's too janky but it's worth talking about. The combo also gives us GREAT game against aggro/burn decks which we struggle against. (It's horrible against infect though)
I think it works better in a boros or jeski shell. Better life options with the damage. May just be too janky in general though
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I play Grixis in Modern.
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On 8-20-2016, a Mardu Nahiri deck T8 SCG Open in Somerset, granted it's not the more common Jeskai version, but your statement was Nahiri decks, look I'm not saying it's the best deck either one they aren't but it isn't trash either, Nahiri also was in several decks making a lot of T16's and T32's at Gp's and such.
Maybe instead of trying to argue on the really specific things and semantics, you could take the operative meaning of my post which is: Control is in a bad way.
Do you agree or disagree with this or not?
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Are you trying to say control in modern in general is in a tough spot? or that you think it's outright bad? I agree it's tough for control decks in modern right now, but I do think Nahiri has actually helped a bit, so has the unbanning of AV, but overall the linear Aggro decks are at an advantage overall in the format and the numbers bear that out, with Midrange and combo sprinkled in as well as a bit of control.
Is it just [[Counterspell]], because I don't think that is happening.
Does Grixis need better life gain?
What would you want to see that would immediately improve the life of a grixis Mage?
And yes, I get Jeskai nahiri puts results up. You'll see a random esper or UW control top a GP. But I'm saying to get in the tier 1 discussion platform. How many thing need to happen to get there?
The problem isn't with blue in this format. Blue is very powerful. and it doesn't need another control piece like a cheaper cruel ultimatum. Grix mages need a way to do damage early and consistently.
It's the mentality that people are using to build these lists, and I was one of them until I understood how the perfoming decks in this format work. it is that people need to realize that there are too many threats to use the Draw-Go-Respond method without having a bomb to lay that ends the game when it hits the board, and that if need be, can be played quickly.
The top tier decks in the format are already on a turn 4-5 win when they are uninhibited. That is too fast to not respond to, and too slow to not have some damage ticking against a lot of decks, because they'll just run into more threats and just peck you to death. I would argue that having a build that allows a threat early game is a better method of control because your opponent has to respond to that threat instead of only concentrating on damaging you, allowing you more time to build your own control, and find more of your own threats. This is especially true against the decks that you need to race to win, that option needs to be clearly and consistently available. That build mentality of "Oh i'll just have all the answers" will never work without having the capability to close the game faster, because that IS the answer to a lot of matchups. That is why nahiri just straight up has a terrible time against some decks, she only has late game win conditions.
Chandra will help, but chandra is still not nahiri, and at best, playing a list that can't deal consistent damage early will only ever run into the same problems that nahiri decks have.
not powerful enough for 3 cmc for the little room we have.
3 Mana is a "mini" kitchen finks that draws you a card instead of returning to the battlefield. Not that great but it actually might work.
Gain a little life. Cycle himself. And if u want to kcommand it back it gains a lot of value. Its not great but could see it being played. We should not understimate it.
BURGrixis ControlBUR
BURGrixis DelverBUR (RIP)
UWBEsper GiftsUWB
UWUW Jace ControlUW
GUBSultai ControlGUB
UBTezzeret Agent of BolasUB
Its one of the best things u can do against Burn since you don't have Finks. Lifegain attached to a body PLUS value-on-death was something exclusive to GW: Finks, Obstinate Baloth (discard instead of death), Thragtusk. Now we actually have a URB-playable version. I wouldn't write it off so quickly.
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give it a try before you criticize. I've already playtested it against tron and jund and it seems it can just stomp.
Land (21)
1x Blood Crypt
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Dakmor Salvage
1x Island
1x Mountain
1x Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
3x Polluted Delta
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
2x Sulfur Falls
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
Creatures (13)
2x Gurmag Angler
3x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Flip
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4x Young Pyromancer
Instants (13)
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Terminate
4x Thought Scour
Sorcery (13)
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Serum Visions
3x Smallpox
I think the combination of smallpox+ fulminator mage and grim discovery+kolaghan's command is sooooOOOOooOOOOooOOOoo good.
I just love smallpox. I think its easily one of the most powerful cards ever printed. but it needs to be built around.
Also, I think this kind of deck list is really where Jace, vryn's prodigy can shine, because you potentially can be in situations with less mana, jace's slow route is more beneficial than recasting things from your graveyard with a 2+ cmc bump that snapcaster requires. because of that, I think discard is more beneficial than counter, considering you can't snap your instants back, you might as well have a strong control play on your turn.
Also, this kind of land set up actually makes path to exile almost welcome. because it allows you to maintain a higher land count.
I chose young pyromancer over delver of secrets because I think that the potential need for recursion may be stronger with him. a pyromancer on a field that sticks will almost always produce a token the turn after he sticks, and delver needs to flip. Also, the decks that can play rest in peace, and blood moon usually have either weenie threats that young pyromancer can pump out to match, or you want to be able to cast your pyromancer in blood moon and use your limited swamps and islands for control casting while utlizing blood moon to cast him. I also don't want to need a lot of islands because of the control shell being mainly R/B and the cantrip/reuse coming from U. Also, pyromancer works better with smallpox. drop a token, get a token. Delver may just be better due to lower cmc,evasion capabilities, and damage, but it needs testing for sure.
I don't feel like explaining the delve creatures and how they are our best option...again, but what I will do is I will say how aweeeeesooome it is to recur fetches from the graveyard with grim discovery to be able to feed an extra card to the graveyard with a land drop.
I tried bloodghast before pyromancer and I didn't it like it. I don't want to worry about having to lay a land to get a threat out, and he can't block, you will be delving a lot and he will conflict that decision. He works really well with smallpox and because its got a mana base for casting that, casting him wasn't a problem, but I found him lackluster in power and redundant with the GY recursion. I don't want to have to concentrate on dredging or needing a thought scour to effectively get him into play. I can cast pyromancer without half those qualms,, If you have a kommand or grim in hand with pyromancer or need to race, that's when you keep him in your GY, and when he sticks he's easily better.
I thought about liliana, the last hope, she might fit in here somewhere or in the least the side. she seems good with this style of recursion, I just haven't had the time to playtest with her in the list.
I'd suggest giving it a try, I think you will be impressed with how well it does, I know I am.
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What do you guys think?
I love that card, but with smallpox, you need the land recurrence, I'm not sure if it needs 3x grim, but atleast 2. you always want to be able to cast a smallpox turn 2 if you have it, it can just win the game that turn, ESPECIALLY if you're on the play.
this deck needs a lot of tweaking, and has a lot of room for improvement. I really like the aspect of the land lock, the recurrence, along with the speed and utility, it may just not be as good as a standard delve/delver spell snare+ mana leak shell, but it does have some of the same aspects that I think are a different representation.
I would sideboard it for grindy decks, but we already are pretty good against these decks.
I think its good. but its no cryptic command, and we don't have room for a 5th cryptic command. If you run 2-3 cryptic commands, its usually because of the 4cmc, and not necessarily the 3U. it does have some unique uses that are powerful, like 2x bolt on turn 5. But with the double options cryptic command provides, I don't this card is as good in my opinion. Maybe if you're running 3x cryptic, drop 1 for this? maybe? Idk. needs testing.
well, IMHO if you really want to work with Smallpox, why rely on 1-or-2-use sorcery spells. Just play Crucible of Worlds and go nuts. You can then save JVP's loyalty for MORE smallpoxing instead of spending resources in equal measure to retaining your footing while disrupting the opponent's.
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Its jank. For 4 CMC you're competing with Cryptic, and Cryptic lets you choose 2 modes, often countering a spell and then drawing, which is awesome value. It can even timewalk which is invaluable.
The 2 cmc charms as they stand see so little play; what chance has this spell got at 4 cmc? From what we can observe, option-style spells must allow more than 1 mode to be chosen for them to become viable: Collective Brutality, Kommand, Cryptic have shown us this. At the same time, the cost cannot be prohibitive unless the value is incredible: Ojutai's Command and Silumgar's Command are good examples of overcosted ones with weak options, while Cryptic makes the cut because of its comparatively more powerful options.
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Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
It's a bad Cryptic.
I don't want the deck to be loam. Smallpox is the grind route, YP and delve creatures are the fast route, grim works well in either case, especially with fulminator. Crucible does not and costs more.
I think it works better in a boros or jeski shell. Better life options with the damage. May just be too janky in general though