My feel is that in Modern Control, when you practically tap out for 5, you should be doing something way more incredible than a twinning mana rock. Like Keranos, for instance. Or Kalitas and hold up 1 mana for protection.
If you wanted to double spells, don't settle for Bolt. Go for *the* grixis finisher: Cruel Ultimatum.
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I've been using this list and I like it a lot. I feel like I durdle quite a lot sometimes, though. I'm gonna try -1 Electrolyze -1 Vendilion +2 Thing in the Ice tomorrow.
Land
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Blood Crypt
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Creeping Tar Pit
Sideboard:
1 Negate
2 Dispel
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Slaughter Games
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sun Droplet
2 Spellskite
I guess you have seen the list that made top 8 at grand prix los angeles, if you didn't, now you do.
I have abbandoned grixis before eldrazi time because i thought the meta was too linear-oriented for this deck to win, while modern is still linear-oriented, know we got ancestral vision, eldrazi is gone so he has a lot less bad match ups. Tron (you won't agree) is still annoying and burn is a nightmare but as you noticed they don't have such an high metagame percentage.
So my choices are, stick to grishoalbrand, the deck that I'm playing right now (i still think playing linear/non-interactive decks is the way to win modern) or jump back to grixis, what suggested me I could do so?
First, I love and hate mana leak, everyone expect it and it sucks when you can't cast it (to aggressive) or when you face ramp decks, this deck plays 0 mana leaks. It plays one remand, good against 2> mana cards, snapcaster, visions (they are a few but it's worth saying they exist) and delve cards (became immense above all). The mono negate is there as an answer to PW, i guess, but not only: i really like it because without leaks ad nauseam became much stronger. The mono dreadbore, somebody saw it coming and he was right, it's good: when you are cutting your counters for removal and visions you need an answer to PW. If you leave liliana from BGx the match up became much easier, same is true for jeskay and tron (tron I think is still annoying but you can bounce an early wurmcoil while racing with tasigur).
Now after I finished to point what I like from the list let's say what I'd modify and test. I don't like the 4 cryptic. It's still a time walk against aggro and it bounces wurmcoils but I feel like 3 of them is where I want to be. I'd probably add 1 vendilion because I always loved having one copy MD in almost every single match up. Then I'm not sure if I want to go 2 tasigur-1 frog instead of 3 tasigur: the main point here is that he wants to be able to cast tasigur t2 consistently when you are facing a deck you need to race: tron/burn/combo and so on, you can't just counter their spells because they have inevitability. I'll probably test it with 3 tasigur, if one is living you are probably already in a good shape.
Now let's take a look at the SB, i know i know, we have to build it thinking about our own meta or the meta we expect at the gp, but right now I don't have much time to play so I'll just build one generic SB and modify it with the card I own if I feel like the local meta is shifting.
1 Negate
2 Dispel
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Slaughter Games
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sun Droplet
2 Spellskite
it's not very different from the SD I had before, what I don't like? Sun Droplet, I really don't. I don't think you have the time to take advantage of it's upsides compared to dragon's claw, I'd play the claw or the 3rd dispel. Slaughter games is a good card but I don't know in how many match would I side it in, but I am ready to change my mind: in which match ups would you play it? Cryptic Incursion, the card is not that bad, actually I changed my mind while I was writing, still, one question for you guys: when would you side it in? I don't think that burn has enough creatures, it would be a nice answer to kitchen finks, maybe affinity? In all this match ups I'd prefer to have a bolt/terminate to prevent the dmg instead of healing while staying behind on tempo...I am still confused about the card.
I'd like to discuss with you how to side in/out the T1 match ups in detail after I'll have tested it.
Thanks very much for every answer/opinion, the deck has the potential to do well, let's refine it together.
This is my list that I plan on testing. In my early testing Mindwrack demon has been really good. With thought scour and seal of fire delirium hasn't been an issue yet.
This is my list that I plan on testing. In my early testing Mindwrack demon has been really good. With thought scour and seal of fire delirium hasn't been an issue yet.
As Grixis GY hate is used frequently against us. Considering the downside the demon has, I'm not sure the 4 cmc for 4/5 is worth it. As a comparison, this is what we can get for 4 cmc in our colors:
Both of whom come without downsides. I think its hard to see the additional benefit of the demon, especially given that you may very well not have delirium as you have few creatures and even fewer enchantments, making the most likely things you have in your GY instants, lands and sorceries. Even given delirium, you've spent 4 mana to cast a 4/5 dumb beater with flying. Tas, PKN and Kalitas are not far superior in the P/T department, but they come with abilities that make a real difference.
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This is my list that I plan on testing. In my early testing Mindwrack demon has been really good. With thought scour and seal of fire delirium hasn't been an issue yet.
As Grixis GY hate is used frequently against us. Considering the downside the demon has, I'm not sure the 4 cmc for 4/5 is worth it. As a comparison, this is what we can get for 4 cmc in our colors:
Both of whom come without downsides. I think its hard to see the additional benefit of the demon, especially given that you may very well not have delirium as you have few creatures and even fewer enchantments, making the most likely things you have in your GY instants, lands and sorceries. Even given delirium, you've spent 4 mana to cast a 4/5 dumb beater with flying. Tas, PKN and Kalitas are not far superior in the P/T department, but they come with abilities that make a real difference.
I run kalitas as a 1 of (I'll get another eventually), the demon's delirium doesn't come up very often since i have plenty of ways to fill up the graveyard, I have spell snare maindeck for rip effect and I run 3 kcommand to answer relic (bad answer but still makes them pop it), etc. In initial testing it has been very good since it's a fast clock. Demon's etb is also really nice!
Return is an interesting addition, I assume it's for the Merfolk matchup which he said he lost to twice. Since I don't have any I'm going to test out some Flaying Tendrils which also hit pro red cards. Since the last clause for Return doesn't matter for us I assume he chose it because 1 red is much easier to hit than 2 black but we need to hit double black for Kalitas anyway.
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Modern URBSome variant of Death's Shadow URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version) JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / Infect
I think the upside of Anger exiling is just too good to pass up in a meta with Abzan Company even though it's harder to cast, only a sorcery and a nonbo with Kalitas. Is our deck really that soft to Merfolk to warrant a change?
I'm thinking Return is a hedge against Infect too. it seems like a very powerful way to fight their nexuses at the end of their turn. I will have to think about this. It still feels like Anger is the better card.
I don't run 2 damage sweepers because I have zoo in my format. If you're dealing with nacatls and kird apes and experiment ones, then u probably want to stick to anger.
Anger nonbos with Kalitas in exchange for being good against persist and voice, dont forget. These things outvalue our removals and make life generally quite hard. It has saved me a few times from being beatdown by Finks.
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I try to find the perfect place to be with my list, and somehow it feels like I keep on dialing things back to what Grixis was in the past. I think I want the 2nd Kalitas in the 75 in any bigger tournament where I'm anticipating burn and zoo - right now one is ok.
I try to find the perfect place to be with my list, and somehow it feels like I keep on dialing things back to what Grixis was in the past. I think I want the 2nd Kalitas in the 75 in any bigger tournament where I'm anticipating burn and zoo - right now one is ok.
I have the same idea however Grixis in general is always a fluctuating decklist based on the meta at your store vs the meta at large events. I currently have a very similar main deck such as the older lists and feel like ancestral visions isn't needed in the mainboard as well. It may be served better in the side but once again everyone's decklist is going to be suited for their local meta. To me having access to a sweeper just acts as an insurance policy against random decks you may encounter whether it's anger of the gods or damnation.
This deck just loses to tron and eldrazi. No chance
eldrazi is probably tough to win regardless of what you play. combo and tron would be my concerns though, certainly. Boom//Bust is obviously amazing, but you need it in every game because this list has like 0 permission and a slow clock to boot. this is a problem against any combo deck as well. I'd be horrified to face ad nauseam with this deck.
eldrazi is probably tough to win regardless of what you play.
Perhaps more of a reason to run Damnation.
Why not more love for Surgical Extraction? It has a ton of utility... nuke a Tron or Eldrazi land on turn 2 or 3 with Boom//Bust, Molten Rain, or Fulminator. Remove the rest of the copies from the game for 2 life. Terminate the first Reality Smasher, then remove the other 3 from the deck for basically free. Less threats = chance to survive.
Eldrazi is a relatively low % of meta right now but for tron you get to bring in like 7 cards (possibly more depending on side). The problem with return vs. infect is that it gets blanked a lot because they can use one pump spell and chip shot you which puts it out of return range. I'm pretty sure both tendrils and return are for pro red creatures and they both do a good job, one is better vs. affinity and the other is better vs. coco
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Modern URBSome variant of Death's Shadow URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version) JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / Infect
eldrazi is probably tough to win regardless of what you play.
Perhaps more of a reason to run Damnation.
Why not more love for Surgical Extraction? It has a ton of utility... nuke a Tron or Eldrazi land on turn 2 or 3 with Boom//Bust, Molten Rain, or Fulminator. Remove the rest of the copies from the game for 2 life. Terminate the first Reality Smasher, then remove the other 3 from the deck for basically free. Less threats = chance to survive.
why don't you try playing 4 surgicals in your MD and report us back how it went. "less threats = chance to survive" way of thinking should apply in any MUs so I see no problem here.
Eldrazi is a relatively low % of meta right now but for tron you get to bring in like 7 cards (possibly more depending on side). The problem with return vs. infect is that it gets blanked a lot because they can use one pump spell and chip shot you which puts it out of return range. I'm pretty sure both tendrils and return are for pro red creatures and they both do a good job, one is better vs. affinity and the other is better vs. coco
I'm not thinking of Return as way to fight their spells, more like a test spell in their eot. if they have multiple creatures in play, including nexus, it becomes very spicy since you're bound to kill something. regular sweepers are bad because you can't tap 3 mana on your own turn.
My feel is that in Modern Control, when you practically tap out for 5, you should be doing something way more incredible than a twinning mana rock. Like Keranos, for instance. Or Kalitas and hold up 1 mana for protection.
If you wanted to double spells, don't settle for Bolt. Go for *the* grixis finisher: Cruel Ultimatum.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
1x Blood Crypt
1x Bloodstained Mire
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Darkslick Shores
2x Island
1x Mountain
4x Polluted Delta
2x Steam Vents
2x Sulfur Falls
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
Instant (18)
3x Kolaghan's Command
4x Ligtning Bolt
3x Mana Leak
1x Slaughter Pact
2x Spell Snare
3x Terminate
1x Electrolyze
1x Dispel
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1x Vendilion Clique
Sorcery (10)
3x Ancestral Vision
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Serum Visions
1x Anger of the Gods
2x Crumble to Dust
2x Dispel
2x Countersquall
1x Spellskite
1x Thoughtseize
2x Vampiric Link
1x Slaughter Games
1x Damnation
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Kozilek's Return
I've been using this list and I like it a lot. I feel like I durdle quite a lot sometimes, though. I'm gonna try -1 Electrolyze -1 Vendilion +2 Thing in the Ice tomorrow.
Top 8
Creature
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Sorcery
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Serum Visions
1 Dreadbore
Instant
4 Thought Scour
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Snare
1 Remand
1 Negate
3 Terminate
3 Kolaghan's Command
4 Cryptic Command
Land
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Blood Crypt
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Creeping Tar Pit
Sideboard:
1 Negate
2 Dispel
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Slaughter Games
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sun Droplet
2 Spellskite
I guess you have seen the list that made top 8 at grand prix los angeles, if you didn't, now you do.
I have abbandoned grixis before eldrazi time because i thought the meta was too linear-oriented for this deck to win, while modern is still linear-oriented, know we got ancestral vision, eldrazi is gone so he has a lot less bad match ups. Tron (you won't agree) is still annoying and burn is a nightmare but as you noticed they don't have such an high metagame percentage.
So my choices are, stick to grishoalbrand, the deck that I'm playing right now (i still think playing linear/non-interactive decks is the way to win modern) or jump back to grixis, what suggested me I could do so?
First, I love and hate mana leak, everyone expect it and it sucks when you can't cast it (to aggressive) or when you face ramp decks, this deck plays 0 mana leaks. It plays one remand, good against 2> mana cards, snapcaster, visions (they are a few but it's worth saying they exist) and delve cards (became immense above all). The mono negate is there as an answer to PW, i guess, but not only: i really like it because without leaks ad nauseam became much stronger. The mono dreadbore, somebody saw it coming and he was right, it's good: when you are cutting your counters for removal and visions you need an answer to PW. If you leave liliana from BGx the match up became much easier, same is true for jeskay and tron (tron I think is still annoying but you can bounce an early wurmcoil while racing with tasigur).
Now after I finished to point what I like from the list let's say what I'd modify and test. I don't like the 4 cryptic. It's still a time walk against aggro and it bounces wurmcoils but I feel like 3 of them is where I want to be. I'd probably add 1 vendilion because I always loved having one copy MD in almost every single match up. Then I'm not sure if I want to go 2 tasigur-1 frog instead of 3 tasigur: the main point here is that he wants to be able to cast tasigur t2 consistently when you are facing a deck you need to race: tron/burn/combo and so on, you can't just counter their spells because they have inevitability. I'll probably test it with 3 tasigur, if one is living you are probably already in a good shape.
Now let's take a look at the SB, i know i know, we have to build it thinking about our own meta or the meta we expect at the gp, but right now I don't have much time to play so I'll just build one generic SB and modify it with the card I own if I feel like the local meta is shifting.
1 Negate
2 Dispel
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Slaughter Games
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sun Droplet
2 Spellskite
it's not very different from the SD I had before, what I don't like? Sun Droplet, I really don't. I don't think you have the time to take advantage of it's upsides compared to dragon's claw, I'd play the claw or the 3rd dispel. Slaughter games is a good card but I don't know in how many match would I side it in, but I am ready to change my mind: in which match ups would you play it? Cryptic Incursion, the card is not that bad, actually I changed my mind while I was writing, still, one question for you guys: when would you side it in? I don't think that burn has enough creatures, it would be a nice answer to kitchen finks, maybe affinity? In all this match ups I'd prefer to have a bolt/terminate to prevent the dmg instead of healing while staying behind on tempo...I am still confused about the card.
I'd like to discuss with you how to side in/out the T1 match ups in detail after I'll have tested it.
Thanks very much for every answer/opinion, the deck has the potential to do well, let's refine it together.
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-demon/
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
As Grixis GY hate is used frequently against us. Considering the downside the demon has, I'm not sure the 4 cmc for 4/5 is worth it. As a comparison, this is what we can get for 4 cmc in our colors:
Both of whom come without downsides. I think its hard to see the additional benefit of the demon, especially given that you may very well not have delirium as you have few creatures and even fewer enchantments, making the most likely things you have in your GY instants, lands and sorceries. Even given delirium, you've spent 4 mana to cast a 4/5 dumb beater with flying. Tas, PKN and Kalitas are not far superior in the P/T department, but they come with abilities that make a real difference.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I run kalitas as a 1 of (I'll get another eventually), the demon's delirium doesn't come up very often since i have plenty of ways to fill up the graveyard, I have spell snare maindeck for rip effect and I run 3 kcommand to answer relic (bad answer but still makes them pop it), etc. In initial testing it has been very good since it's a fast clock. Demon's etb is also really nice!
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
Youtube Channel
Anger nonbos with Kalitas in exchange for being good against persist and voice, dont forget. These things outvalue our removals and make life generally quite hard. It has saved me a few times from being beatdown by Finks.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
my post was addressed more to peeps thinking of *dropping* their sweeper slots (presumably angers) for returns.
If we're fielding both then the question is what is lost in exchange for the increase in sweepers in totality.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Spell Snare
3 Terminate
1 Go For the Throat
4 Remand
2 Mana Leak
3 Kolaghan's Command
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Cryptic Command
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
1 Sulfur Falls
2 Darkslick Shores
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Rakdos Charm
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Crumble to Dust
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Painful Truths
1 Dispel
1 Countersquall
1 Magma Spray
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
Youtube Channel
I have the same idea however Grixis in general is always a fluctuating decklist based on the meta at your store vs the meta at large events. I currently have a very similar main deck such as the older lists and feel like ancestral visions isn't needed in the mainboard as well. It may be served better in the side but once again everyone's decklist is going to be suited for their local meta. To me having access to a sweeper just acts as an insurance policy against random decks you may encounter whether it's anger of the gods or damnation.
This deck just loses to tron and eldrazi. No chance
eldrazi is probably tough to win regardless of what you play. combo and tron would be my concerns though, certainly. Boom//Bust is obviously amazing, but you need it in every game because this list has like 0 permission and a slow clock to boot. this is a problem against any combo deck as well. I'd be horrified to face ad nauseam with this deck.
Youtube Channel
Perhaps more of a reason to run Damnation.
Why not more love for Surgical Extraction? It has a ton of utility... nuke a Tron or Eldrazi land on turn 2 or 3 with Boom//Bust, Molten Rain, or Fulminator. Remove the rest of the copies from the game for 2 life. Terminate the first Reality Smasher, then remove the other 3 from the deck for basically free. Less threats = chance to survive.
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
why don't you try playing 4 surgicals in your MD and report us back how it went. "less threats = chance to survive" way of thinking should apply in any MUs so I see no problem here.
I'm not thinking of Return as way to fight their spells, more like a test spell in their eot. if they have multiple creatures in play, including nexus, it becomes very spicy since you're bound to kill something. regular sweepers are bad because you can't tap 3 mana on your own turn.
Youtube Channel