I beat the uwr nahiri deck with a delve grixis list. It seems like it'd be better but they aren't running verdicts or sphinxs rev in large quantities if at all.
If you're saying it's better against the meta that's different. I'm just saying vs each other grixis does better against this new version than against the uw/uwr versions with finks, wall, and resto
How do we feel about Ancestral Vision at this point?
I feel that unless you're trying to go over a midrange deck, AV is a liability. That's why Ryan's version has them in the SB, for when you match against Jund or mirrors that will go along.
Otherwise, his maindeck U spells provide immediate gratification, as required for going under control or tempo against aggro.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I beat the uwr nahiri deck with a delve grixis list. It seems like it'd be better but they aren't running verdicts or sphinxs rev in large quantities if at all.
If you're saying it's better against the meta that's different. I'm just saying vs each other grixis does better against this new version than against the uw/uwr versions with finks, wall, and resto
I was referring to the meta.
Grixis has always been my "pet colors" ever since I played it back during Innistrad draft. But I feel like Jeskai might be more consistent given the meta. Unless we can expect alot of Jund and Jeskai control
Has anyone tried Deprive or am I just digging too deep at this point?
I think it fits well in Grixis Delver as a 1of, I don't think control wants it. The drawback is annoying for a deck playing a long grindy game. If anything it's just going to feel annoying when you cast it early game and like a worse version Cryptic when you cast it late game.
As a deck that is Grixis Control splash Delvers I'm not sure if I really want it then. I think the answer is probably not then since the deck plays more of a draw go style after you land a cheap threat.
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Modern URBSome variant of Death's Shadow URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version) JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / Infect
Second to a well placed cryptic command, Deprive is the best late game spell. It has a permanent home in my Grixis 75 lists. The liability rarely ever comes up (and, when it does, I was losing anyway). It catches tron completely off guard. I am often surprised that other folks don't run it, but then I think they didn't play test an extensive list. When it hits it is never disappointing.
I'll be playing a slightly modified version of what I played last week.
Currently not too sure why people are thinking Jeskai or Grixis. They both do different things after all and both are viable with the proper amount of reps.
Currently 5-1 vs the Nahiri UWR builds and 3-0 vs Kiki Chord builds playing Nahiri.
Has anyone done any testing on Mindwrack Demon? This deck can get delirium with ease when playing thought scour + Origins Jace/tarfire/seal of fire. It seems like a quick finisher and the trample dmg is relevant.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Try Delver out, it will help you beat a lot of those "random decks".
Sure UWR might not be the greatest matchup, but it's still fine. Don't think of it as a "Delver deck", think of it as Grixis Control with Delvers added as a cheap threat against unfair decks. Against fair decks like Jund or UWR you can side into 4 Ancestral Vision and remove the Delvers post board, and overall it's not that bad
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Current Modern decks BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam UB Reanimator
I don't have any AV. I'm trying to think of what to run instead of it. Perhaps squelch, think twice or anticipate? I know that AV is irreplaceable because nothing else is like it.
I like the maindeck Fulminators Neoshinji. I always like main board ways of dealing with lands in the first game. They can wreck us so quickly.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
Maybe I'll give Delver another try but I always have bad luck with variance (read: I can't shuffle).
I'm still trying to work out a creature-base with Thing in the Ice, usually ending up somewhere like this:
3 Thing in the Ice
2 Kalitas
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
but I've always felt it was somehow inconsistent.
@thewrush: Without AV I would consider running something similar to Chapin's original Delve list. Heck, Ryan Overturf's new version only runs a couple in the sideboard anyway. AV is really only maindecked in the "Blue Jund" variants anyway. The other versions aren't looking to draw the game out to the super-late game so they aren't super necessary. It's super good against Jund though.
As for replacements, Think Twice is good in draw-go lists. Painful Truths is good in tap-out versions.
@Argomok
I agree. I played Grixis Delver for most of 2015. He broke my heart time and time again. When he flips he's great, but when he doesn't flip, he is *really* bad. I'm going to stick with consistency. I like your 3 / 2 / 4 / 2 spread.
Thats what I just wanted to post after playing a few games today. When he flips he is just good, but when he doesnt its so bad, and we already have a lot of variance in our deck if we play the delve package.
Delver and Thought Scour are definitely high variance, and are a reason I wanted to cut Thought Scour entirely, reduce the number of Tasigurs and Gurmag Anglers, and add Kalitas if I'm trying to play a 'true control' game of trading resources and stabilizing. But there are other problems with that plan, it seems. So a tempo-aggro-control approach like Ryan O.'s seems like it could be a good direction: capitalize on the ability to power out cheap Tasigurs and Anglers, get rid of cards with 4+ CMC, shave lands, and add cheap, interactive, controlling spells. And since we've already increased the spell count, we may as well add Delver of Secrets to help close out games (even from turn 1).
From Ryan O.'s SCG Indianapolis list, I want to add another Kolaghan's Command (to help mitigate against Thought Scour throwing a Tasigur/Angler in the graveyard, especially with only two of each; a single Kolaghan's Command seems too few, even in a low-to-the-ground deck like this one) -- probably in place of a single Spell Snare. It's still a more controlling build than the (old) Grixis Delver lists with Gitaxian Probe, Young Pyromancer, etc., but more proactive than even Chapin's GP Charlotte list.
I'm trying to acquire some cards for Jeskai control, but this is the list I'm planning to take to FNM this week. I'm not convinced about the Delver -> Ancestral Vision sideboard plan, and the last time I played FNM there were a number of Elves/Tokens decks, hence the Staticasters. And I still need to pick up some Magma Sprays / Pillar of Flames. Anger of the Gods isn't so great with Delver of Secrets. :\
I have been obsessively investigating ways to gain life as it seems to be our achilles heel. I don't really have an answer, except to optimize the mana base for less pain, and to make sure that our answers get underneath theirs as much as possible. Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet seems essential, and Dragon's Claw the difference-maker against Burn. Crypt Incursion seems like it could be a bit too narrow, especially now as it seems the meta will shift towards more Jeskai Control.
I feel like should be able to win any matchup if we study the meta and become familiar with the most backbreaking Slaughter Games targets against each other deck. Nahiri, the Harbinger seems ultra-vulnerable to Slaughter Games- I studied the deck and it seems like the best they can do is Remand it repeatedly. They can't make us discard it and they can't counter it.
Anyways, good luck with your builds and I will report back after I do some more testing.
I feel like should be able to win any matchup if we study the meta and become familiar with the most backbreaking Slaughter Games targets against each other deck. Nahiri, the Harbinger seems ultra-vulnerable to Slaughter Games- I studied the deck and it seems like the best they can do is Remand it repeatedly. They can't make us discard it and they can't counter it.
Even though Remand sends the card back to the hand, it still counts as 'countering' the spell, so Slaughter Games cannot be Remanded.
Sunken Hollow does 'turn on' Sulfur Falls, but I would prefer Darkslick Shores for the potential to T1 Inquisition/Thoughtseize. The "unless you control two or more basic lands" clause means these lands will often come into play tapped, I would think.
If you're saying it's better against the meta that's different. I'm just saying vs each other grixis does better against this new version than against the uw/uwr versions with finks, wall, and resto
Modern UMerfolkU
Legacy UMerfolkU
Standard XWhatever's GoodX
I feel that unless you're trying to go over a midrange deck, AV is a liability. That's why Ryan's version has them in the SB, for when you match against Jund or mirrors that will go along.
Otherwise, his maindeck U spells provide immediate gratification, as required for going under control or tempo against aggro.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I was referring to the meta.
Grixis has always been my "pet colors" ever since I played it back during Innistrad draft. But I feel like Jeskai might be more consistent given the meta. Unless we can expect alot of Jund and Jeskai control
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Pithing Needle.. Turning off manlands and walkers seems relevant right now. Idk
Trail of Evidence for midrange and control mirrors might actually be amazing.
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
I think it fits well in Grixis Delver as a 1of, I don't think control wants it. The drawback is annoying for a deck playing a long grindy game. If anything it's just going to feel annoying when you cast it early game and like a worse version Cryptic when you cast it late game.
URBURB
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
Currently not too sure why people are thinking Jeskai or Grixis. They both do different things after all and both are viable with the proper amount of reps.
Currently 5-1 vs the Nahiri UWR builds and 3-0 vs Kiki Chord builds playing Nahiri.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Sure UWR might not be the greatest matchup, but it's still fine. Don't think of it as a "Delver deck", think of it as Grixis Control with Delvers added as a cheap threat against unfair decks. Against fair decks like Jund or UWR you can side into 4 Ancestral Vision and remove the Delvers post board, and overall it's not that bad
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
4 Snapcaster
2 Tasigur
1 Kalitas
1 Gurmag Angler
.. is what I'm trying, though I'm not sure maybe I want 1 or 2 more delve creatures in the list overall.
I like the maindeck Fulminators Neoshinji. I always like main board ways of dealing with lands in the first game. They can wreck us so quickly.
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
3 Gurmag Angler
2 Tasigur,
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
Maybe I'll give Delver another try but I always have bad luck with variance (read: I can't shuffle).
I'm still trying to work out a creature-base with Thing in the Ice, usually ending up somewhere like this:
3 Thing in the Ice
2 Kalitas
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
but I've always felt it was somehow inconsistent.
@thewrush: Without AV I would consider running something similar to Chapin's original Delve list. Heck, Ryan Overturf's new version only runs a couple in the sideboard anyway. AV is really only maindecked in the "Blue Jund" variants anyway. The other versions aren't looking to draw the game out to the super-late game so they aren't super necessary. It's super good against Jund though.
As for replacements, Think Twice is good in draw-go lists. Painful Truths is good in tap-out versions.
WUB Puresteel Midrange WUB
I agree. I played Grixis Delver for most of 2015. He broke my heart time and time again. When he flips he's great, but when he doesn't flip, he is *really* bad. I'm going to stick with consistency. I like your 3 / 2 / 4 / 2 spread.
Delver and Thought Scour are definitely high variance, and are a reason I wanted to cut Thought Scour entirely, reduce the number of Tasigurs and Gurmag Anglers, and add Kalitas if I'm trying to play a 'true control' game of trading resources and stabilizing. But there are other problems with that plan, it seems. So a tempo-aggro-control approach like Ryan O.'s seems like it could be a good direction: capitalize on the ability to power out cheap Tasigurs and Anglers, get rid of cards with 4+ CMC, shave lands, and add cheap, interactive, controlling spells. And since we've already increased the spell count, we may as well add Delver of Secrets to help close out games (even from turn 1).
From Ryan O.'s SCG Indianapolis list, I want to add another Kolaghan's Command (to help mitigate against Thought Scour throwing a Tasigur/Angler in the graveyard, especially with only two of each; a single Kolaghan's Command seems too few, even in a low-to-the-ground deck like this one) -- probably in place of a single Spell Snare. It's still a more controlling build than the (old) Grixis Delver lists with Gitaxian Probe, Young Pyromancer, etc., but more proactive than even Chapin's GP Charlotte list.
I'm trying to acquire some cards for Jeskai control, but this is the list I'm planning to take to FNM this week. I'm not convinced about the Delver -> Ancestral Vision sideboard plan, and the last time I played FNM there were a number of Elves/Tokens decks, hence the Staticasters. And I still need to pick up some Magma Sprays / Pillar of Flames. Anger of the Gods isn't so great with Delver of Secrets. :\
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Darkslick Shores
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
1 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Swamp
1 Watery Grave
Creatures (12)
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mana Leak
4 Remand
3 Spell Snare
3 Terminate
4 Thought Scour
Sorceries (5)
1 Dreadbore
4 Serum Visions
2 Izzet Staticaster
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Countersquall
3 Dispel
2 Electrolyze
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Vampiric Link
Here is the list I have been working on. I only got in 1 game last night against Grixis Delver, but I won pretty comfortably.
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Instants (15):
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Kolaghan's Command
3 Terminate
1 Murderous Cut
2 Mana Leak
1 Countersquall
Sorceries (12):
4 Serum Visions
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Smoldering Marsh
1 Sunken Hollow
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Mountain
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Dragon's Claw
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Slaughter Games
2 Countersquall
1 Dreadbore
1 Terminate
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Keranos, God of Storms
I have been obsessively investigating ways to gain life as it seems to be our achilles heel. I don't really have an answer, except to optimize the mana base for less pain, and to make sure that our answers get underneath theirs as much as possible. Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet seems essential, and Dragon's Claw the difference-maker against Burn. Crypt Incursion seems like it could be a bit too narrow, especially now as it seems the meta will shift towards more Jeskai Control.
I added Smoldering Marsh and Sunken Hollow in place of Darkslick Shores and Blackcleave Cliffs, and they have seemed really good so far. I like that they both turn on Sulfur Falls.
I feel like should be able to win any matchup if we study the meta and become familiar with the most backbreaking Slaughter Games targets against each other deck. Nahiri, the Harbinger seems ultra-vulnerable to Slaughter Games- I studied the deck and it seems like the best they can do is Remand it repeatedly. They can't make us discard it and they can't counter it.
Anyways, good luck with your builds and I will report back after I do some more testing.
EDH: UBRJeleva | GURSurrak
Even though Remand sends the card back to the hand, it still counts as 'countering' the spell, so Slaughter Games cannot be Remanded.
Sunken Hollow does 'turn on' Sulfur Falls, but I would prefer Darkslick Shores for the potential to T1 Inquisition/Thoughtseize. The "unless you control two or more basic lands" clause means these lands will often come into play tapped, I would think.