Are matchups against control decks winnable? I mean decks that are more control than we are, like Jeskai or UW. I don't think i've ever won a game. They always have the inevitability and can control us better than we can control them.
I swaped my GDD in the side for a Keranos to have something for that MU, but doesn't seem like enough.
the UW/UWR match up has always felt about 50-50 for me. I don't think they're "more controlling" than we are, they simply do things that happen to negate some of our deck's best plays, such as Path to Exile essentially taking out Tas/Snap/Angler forever and out of reach of our Kommand.
Or Supreme Verdict having the last say no matter what we held up to protect our nice board with.
Naturally, once you know what risks there are present, you can play around them. Not committing more than 2 threats at a time to the board, although it seems intuitive to "quickly close out the game".
Blood moon hurts them more than it hurts us, because their 4 colonnades become mountains.
Having dispels in to mess with their cryptic commands and revelations and essentially win the inevitable counter-wars.
Wide threats like PKN that force a fair-trade Supreme Verdict and make it a little safer to land your bigger delve threats.
Kommand going out in favor of more threats (like the aforementioned PKN).
Beating them with proactive value cards like Rise // Fall. Fall - Snap - Fall is impossible for them to recover from.
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No way you're having a bad matchup against CoCo. That matchup is favorable at all times for me. You're not the first perdon I've seen bring it up though, so maybe it could be an issue that only the Delve versions have. Euther way a few extra copies of Anger of the Gods and Dispel usually do the job.
PS: I did not mean to say that the matchup was abysmal; rather, liliana of the veil is abysmal in that match.
I won the vast majority of the pre-board games... BUT... I was never happy with drawing lili. That's what I meant to say
I think part of the reason is delve lists have traditionally relied on counter magic.
I don't think counter magic is "amazing" vs coco. The best counter spell is dispel. Mana leak is "ok" but will always be dead late game due to massive ammount of mana dorks // chord // convoke. Cryptic is really... really slow. And easily played around. Remand... you really don't want to be remanding vs coco.
The best way to beat coco (in my opinion) is have a body (kalitas, angler, tasigur, etc.) backed up my massive amounts of removal spells and 1-2 dispels.
Oh haha sorry about that.
Let us know how Lily performs. I'm not sold on it yet because the only real argument for her that I've is heard is that she's a good answer for decks that try to go big, but even then when Majors added the card to his list he was bringing up more downsides than upsides about the card. I think she's fine, but I'd rather play Remand if I'm trying to mess up big decks. Granted in a vacuum Remand isn't as powerful, but it's way more synergistic than Lily.
Honestly I'm torn. On one hand having the extra removal is nice. On the other... the +1 is often awkward.
Also: I'm missing Jaces. So much.
With the Ancestral unban, these Chapin Grixis style decks are still largely unexplored. I wrote an article about my prefered approach to Grixis which lies in this vein, I've been calling it Grixis Flash. The pacing of the deck is very similar to your typical UWR Flash or Twin deck (RIP), which has me happy already, but it's proved to be very successful in testing. The highly reactive nature of the deck is a bunch of fun, let me know what you guys think
That looks like a very interesting deck, my biggest question is why you chose Grixis for that kind of shell. You aren't running Inquisition/TS or Tasigur; you're basically just playing black for K-command and a couple of sideboard cards. Seems to me like what you gain from white (Lightning Helix, Path, better sideboard cards) is worth giving up K-command.
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Current Modern decks BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam UB Reanimator
That looks like a very interesting deck, my biggest question is why you chose Grixis for that kind of shell. You aren't running Inquisition/TS or Tasigur; you're basically just playing black for K-command and a couple of sideboard cards. Seems to me like what you gain from white (Lightning Helix, Path, better sideboard cards) is worth giving up K-command.
I think Jace depends 100% on whether we are running TS package. After playing Thursday night modern this week, I feel like I want Jace back in the mix if I'm running x4 thoughtscours.
x2 AVs, x4 TS, x2 serums were just not enough draw power.
I'm going to give liliana another chance (Jaceless build).
Decided I don't want x3 Anglers and rather want to diversify my threats. Thoughts appreciated
With the Ancestral unban, these Chapin Grixis style decks are still largely unexplored. I wrote an article about my prefered approach to Grixis which lies in this vein, I've been calling it Grixis Flash. The pacing of the deck is very similar to your typical UWR Flash or Twin deck (RIP), which has me happy already, but it's proved to be very successful in testing. The highly reactive nature of the deck is a bunch of fun, let me know what you guys think
That looks like a very interesting deck, my biggest question is why you chose Grixis for that kind of shell. You aren't running Inquisition/TS or Tasigur; you're basically just playing black for K-command and a couple of sideboard cards. Seems to me like what you gain from white (Lightning Helix, Path, better sideboard cards) is worth giving up K-command.
Nice write-up. Not that I know a lot, but on principle, I would agree with FZA. Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet does a lot of work against Abzan Company, and main-deck lifelink on a 3/4, then 5/6, etc. creature is pretty great. And being able to play Tasigur, the Golden Fang for on turn 3-4-5 with countermagic mana up seems pretty strong (even without using Thought Scour to try to power him out as early as possible). Even without playing discard spells, if I wasn't running any black creatures, I think I'd go for Jeskai over Grixis.
After lots of tweaking and re-tweaking, this is the list I'm hoping to use next time I get to play Modern (the second Vendilion Clique and Slaughter Pact should be arriving within the next couple days). It's pretty similar to AcademyRuins' 'Grixis Flash' list in the spells. My thought is that while discard might be 'better', countermagic works better with Snapcaster Mage and countering the opponent's play after s/he has spent mana seems better than taking one card but allowing a different one to hit the table instead. Regarding creatures, I want to like Thing in the Ice, but I can't justify not playing Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet. He is obviously more of a 'tap-out' creature, but I don't think it's too non-synergistic with the rest of the deck.
Some changes from my earlier attempts:
* Even though it makes me cry inside a little, I cut down to one Cryptic Command to lower the curve.
* Vendilion Clique helps even out the curve a little, acts as pseudo-discard and an evasive clock (something I felt was missing a bit the last time I played) -- and in a pinch, can help cycle bad cards out of my hand.
* Despite the value he brings, I may ditch the last Goblin Dark-Dwellers for another spell (maybe a Seal of Fire to borrow Michael Majors' tech or another Mana Leak or Remand) or a different creature (not sure what, though; maybe a main-deck Fulminator Mage if I can trade for one).
* I'm not sure about the non-Polluted Delta fetchlands. I have playsets of all the Khans fetches, but no Zendikar fetches. I thought the Flooded Strands in my earlier lists were a little inflexible. Scalding Tarns aren't happening any time soon, though.
* Also, with Kalitas in the main, I'm not sure if Vampiric Link is so necessary anymore. Perhaps I could use those slots for Inquisition of Kozilek or Thoughtseize or even Duress.
I know Ral Zarek isn't the talk of the town in Modern for playable Planeswalkers. It got me thinking the other day after reading articles about how Grixis has trouble closing out games or not applying enough pressure. When I think about how this deck drops only 1 threat (Tasigur, Kalitas, PnK, Angler) and expects to start winning from there, Ral came to mind as a way to tap blockers and possibly untap a land(provided you've been allowed to untap with him) to fix mana for another spell that turn. Or perhaps he gives us some additional reach with his bolt. I would like to try maybe 1-2 of him just to see if he changes anything. I'm aware he fails the potent planeswalker test (protect self, provide win con or extreme power). It sucks he is a four drop and may only reward you with a Sorcery speed Lightning Bolt. Maybe he could act as a temporary life buffer that helps stall the game and gives you an edge if left unanswered?
As an aside, maybe he would fit alongside Nahiri in Jeskai?
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AV pushed Jace out of the deck. Nothing is written in stone tho, quite the number of Pros are branding AV as straight unplayable in Modern. Time will tell.
After counting the times I've died with AV still on suspend, I would probably agree with them.
AV pushed Jace out of the deck. Nothing is written in stone tho, quite the number of Pros are branding AV as straight unplayable in Modern. Time will tell.
Can you link me some articles on AV in Modern, if there are any? I can't seem to find them.
On a side note: I had an epiphany the way home tonight. I think i figired out the challenge of grixis control. And it all comes down to lands/threat density.
Think about it. Two types of grixis control lists have emerged: Decks with lower land counter but delve/jace/tempo threats and decks (like majors) that have higher lands but bigger threats fully utalizing AV.
Decks like majors are arguably more powerful than chapin type decks. But if you read Majors article: that type of deck still suffers from a problem: slow clock.
The question becomes: do we give up the raw power of majors deck for a faster clock to be better va combo? Do we concede the fact that we are weak to non interactive decks and simply go for the best overall results? Or do we continue to try to "solve" this delima of finding "the best of both worlds"?
I feel like the solution might be there... And I feel like Jace or liliana could be the answer.
What about things that will increase our clock?
I'm thinking of adding maybe an Olivia or a Thundermaw to my 75 somewhere.
Liliana I'm not sure actually speeds your match or helps you finish, and I'd ONLY run her in delve versions if I ran her at all. In control versions I'd much rather run Tribute to Hunger since at least it can be snapped back, and you mentioned earlier you appreciated her as extra removal, but the discard felt awkward.
What about things that will increase our clock?
I'm thinking of adding maybe an Olivia or a Thundermaw to my 75 somewhere.
Liliana I'm not sure actually speeds your match or helps you finish, and I'd ONLY run her in delve versions if I ran her at all. In control versions I'd much rather run Tribute to Hunger since at least it can be snapped back, and you mentioned earlier you appreciated her as extra removal, but the discard felt awkward.
That's part of the chsllene. By adding Olivia/thundermaw you have to increase your land count
So I've been debating heavily whether or not I want to run Desolate Lighthouse or not. Having a colorless land seems really greedy in the mana base but I find myself often wishing I could pitch extra lands in the late game. What do you guys think?
So I've been debating heavily whether or not I want to run Desolate Lighthouse or not. Having a colorless land seems really greedy in the mana base but I find myself often wishing I could pitch extra lands in the late game. What do you guys think?
If you were to play Lighthouse why not just play Jace instead?
I really don't want heavy amounts of discard as I don't plan on playing the Delve heavy version. Just a single source of filtering would be fine.
I'm going to give liliana another chance (Jaceless build).
Decided I don't want x3 Anglers and rather want to diversify my threats. Thoughts appreciated
You've cut the cards that synergize well with rise fall except snappy. You may as well cut the rise fall too, even the lists with jace and pia still in them tend to not run rise fall anymore. Most those recursive blue jund decks max out on KCommand first anyway.
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the UW/UWR match up has always felt about 50-50 for me. I don't think they're "more controlling" than we are, they simply do things that happen to negate some of our deck's best plays, such as Path to Exile essentially taking out Tas/Snap/Angler forever and out of reach of our Kommand.
Or Supreme Verdict having the last say no matter what we held up to protect our nice board with.
Naturally, once you know what risks there are present, you can play around them. Not committing more than 2 threats at a time to the board, although it seems intuitive to "quickly close out the game".
Blood moon hurts them more than it hurts us, because their 4 colonnades become mountains.
Having dispels in to mess with their cryptic commands and revelations and essentially win the inevitable counter-wars.
Wide threats like PKN that force a fair-trade Supreme Verdict and make it a little safer to land your bigger delve threats.
Kommand going out in favor of more threats (like the aforementioned PKN).
Beating them with proactive value cards like Rise // Fall. Fall - Snap - Fall is impossible for them to recover from.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Honestly I'm torn. On one hand having the extra removal is nice. On the other... the +1 is often awkward.
Also: I'm missing Jaces. So much.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
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Current Decks
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Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Grixis Flash in Modern
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
I think Jace depends 100% on whether we are running TS package. After playing Thursday night modern this week, I feel like I want Jace back in the mix if I'm running x4 thoughtscours.
x2 AVs, x4 TS, x2 serums were just not enough draw power.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
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Current Decks
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Standard: BW Control
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Decided I don't want x3 Anglers and rather want to diversify my threats. Thoughts appreciated
1x Blood Crypt
1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Creeping Tar Pit
3x Island
1x Mountain
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
2x Sulfur Falls
1x Swamp
1x Watery Grave
Instant (18)
1x Dismember
1x dispel
3x Kolaghan's Command
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Mana Leak
3x Terminate
4x Thought Scour
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Gurmag Angler
Sorcery (8)
2x Ancestral Vision
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Rise/Fall
2x Serum Visions
Planeswalker (2)
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Anger of the Gods
3x Fulminator Mage
2x Counterflux
1x Damnation
1x Dispel
2x negate
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Keranos, God of Storms
1x Shatterstorm
2x Vampiric Link
[/spoiler]
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Nice write-up. Not that I know a lot, but on principle, I would agree with FZA. Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet does a lot of work against Abzan Company, and main-deck lifelink on a 3/4, then 5/6, etc. creature is pretty great. And being able to play Tasigur, the Golden Fang for on turn 3-4-5 with countermagic mana up seems pretty strong (even without using Thought Scour to try to power him out as early as possible). Even without playing discard spells, if I wasn't running any black creatures, I think I'd go for Jeskai over Grixis.
After lots of tweaking and re-tweaking, this is the list I'm hoping to use next time I get to play Modern (the second Vendilion Clique and Slaughter Pact should be arriving within the next couple days). It's pretty similar to AcademyRuins' 'Grixis Flash' list in the spells. My thought is that while discard might be 'better', countermagic works better with Snapcaster Mage and countering the opponent's play after s/he has spent mana seems better than taking one card but allowing a different one to hit the table instead. Regarding creatures, I want to like Thing in the Ice, but I can't justify not playing Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet. He is obviously more of a 'tap-out' creature, but I don't think it's too non-synergistic with the rest of the deck.
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
Creature (11)
1 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Serum Visions
Counterspells (8)
1 Cryptic Command
2 Mana Leak
2 Remand
1 Negate
2 Spell Snare
Removal/Burn (11)
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Kolaghan's Command
3 Terminate
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Crumble to Dust
2 Dispel
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Spellskite
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Vampiric Link
Some changes from my earlier attempts:
* Even though it makes me cry inside a little, I cut down to one Cryptic Command to lower the curve.
* Vendilion Clique helps even out the curve a little, acts as pseudo-discard and an evasive clock (something I felt was missing a bit the last time I played) -- and in a pinch, can help cycle bad cards out of my hand.
* Despite the value he brings, I may ditch the last Goblin Dark-Dwellers for another spell (maybe a Seal of Fire to borrow Michael Majors' tech or another Mana Leak or Remand) or a different creature (not sure what, though; maybe a main-deck Fulminator Mage if I can trade for one).
* I'm not sure about the non-Polluted Delta fetchlands. I have playsets of all the Khans fetches, but no Zendikar fetches. I thought the Flooded Strands in my earlier lists were a little inflexible. Scalding Tarns aren't happening any time soon, though.
* Also, with Kalitas in the main, I'm not sure if Vampiric Link is so necessary anymore. Perhaps I could use those slots for Inquisition of Kozilek or Thoughtseize or even Duress.
Comments / critiques are most welcome.
As an aside, maybe he would fit alongside Nahiri in Jeskai?
Anyone else have any feedback about Ral?
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BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
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RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
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BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
After counting the times I've died with AV still on suspend, I would probably agree with them.
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Can you link me some articles on AV in Modern, if there are any? I can't seem to find them.
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Woot! We're official now
On a side note: I had an epiphany the way home tonight. I think i figired out the challenge of grixis control. And it all comes down to lands/threat density.
Think about it. Two types of grixis control lists have emerged: Decks with lower land counter but delve/jace/tempo threats and decks (like majors) that have higher lands but bigger threats fully utalizing AV.
Decks like majors are arguably more powerful than chapin type decks. But if you read Majors article: that type of deck still suffers from a problem: slow clock.
The question becomes: do we give up the raw power of majors deck for a faster clock to be better va combo? Do we concede the fact that we are weak to non interactive decks and simply go for the best overall results? Or do we continue to try to "solve" this delima of finding "the best of both worlds"?
I feel like the solution might be there... And I feel like Jace or liliana could be the answer.
I myself decided to add jace back to my deck.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I'm thinking of adding maybe an Olivia or a Thundermaw to my 75 somewhere.
Liliana I'm not sure actually speeds your match or helps you finish, and I'd ONLY run her in delve versions if I ran her at all. In control versions I'd much rather run Tribute to Hunger since at least it can be snapped back, and you mentioned earlier you appreciated her as extra removal, but the discard felt awkward.
That's part of the chsllene. By adding Olivia/thundermaw you have to increase your land count
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I really don't want heavy amounts of discard as I don't plan on playing the Delve heavy version. Just a single source of filtering would be fine.
You've cut the cards that synergize well with rise fall except snappy. You may as well cut the rise fall too, even the lists with jace and pia still in them tend to not run rise fall anymore. Most those recursive blue jund decks max out on KCommand first anyway.