Hey everyone, I regret to inform you that I was unable to make it to SCG States on Sunday like I originally intended. The bar in which I frequent gave my card back to the wrong patron (who shared my last name) on Saturday night and I had that whole mess to clear up on Sunday. I will continue to hit up big tournaments in the local area as best I can with this deck though and post those results.
How necessary are planeswalkers? I see some people playing Gideon and some Venser. But in the decklists that actually place, none are used. Does it depend on if you're playing draw-go or tap out?
IceMaster: Hard to call 1-offs "necessary". We who play them generally just prefer 1. Having one of our threats be CMC 5 instead of 6, 2. Diversified threats, 3. Gifts for bigger threat-piles, 4. A second way to attack (although with Gideon it's more of a defensive thing).
How necessary are planeswalkers? I see some people playing Gideon and some Venser. But in the decklists that actually place, none are used. Does it depend on if you're playing draw-go or tap out?
There are 2 primary reasons for this. One is that the tap out list has almost always used Venser for extra value, though that deck is harder positioned against the decks we are already bad against and thus hasn't placed as well up to this point. Second, the draw go list JUST added in Gideon with the release of BFZ because of Emeria Shepherd. Before Emeria Shepherd, running a 1-of planeswalker (even though he is crazy good) hasn't been good enough because once he dies thats it. Now there is another 1 of chance in our deck to recur him to field. That chance is enough to push us to adding 1 in the deck. This change to adding 1-ofs is also stemmed by the increase in the 1-of Gifts Ungivin which essentially set you up for victory whenever you get it off (though its not good enough to run too many of, 1 of seems decent enough as we dig pretty deep into our library anyway).
I'm getting more and more inclined to going back to the Mortarpods. I just don't feel I've tested the Spell Snares enough yet. :/ I agree very much about your analysis of "in what meta is this good"! Interesting boarding in Spreading Seas vs Grixis.
EDIT: I'm actually starting to reconsider Mana Leak in the deck, too... We're playing Ghost Quarters + Paths and it just doesn't mesh that well with Leaks, beyond that we also like to go late and late the Leaks are usually dead too. Sure, they're great the times I have them early vs decks where they're good, but yeah...
EDIT2: Anyone ever considered going to 25 lands? Many UW control-lists run 25-26. The reason lower has worked for us are the Pilgrims Eye, but most people are just running 2 of those nowadays anyway... and I'm still looking for a reason to cut them tbh (maybe for 1 land/1 mortarpod).
After some brewing I decided to go ahead and order 3 Flickerwisps and 1 Venser, the Sojourner. I doubt the cards will arrive in time for FNM, but hoooopefully for next weeks FNM.
What I was thinking is that the things we need to counter usually show up post T3 anyway and like mentioned above the Leaks have not been impressing me. Thus, I'm gonna try to mix the tapout version with the strength of Negate & Dispel in the current modern meta. I will also go all crazy and go ahead and cut the 2 Pilgrim's Eye.
Thinking something like this. This is 0 Pilgrim's and 25 lands. It's possible you can go 0/24 and it's possible it should just be 2/24. If I go back to 2 Pilgrim's Eye I would cut 1 land & 1 Negate/Dispel.
I realize this list looks like a million 1-offs, but keep in mind that:
{2 Sun Titan, 1 Emeria Shepherd, 1 Gideon Jura, 1 Venser(, 1 Gifts)} = 5-6 "threats"
{1 Supreme Verdict, 1 Wrath of God} = 2 sweepers
{1 Dispel, 1 Ojutai's Command, 2 Negate} = 4 counterspells
The true 1-off in the deck is the Mortarpod. I don't like the card and I would never like to draw two, but I do see the value of it. I want to try it out for real. Maybe it should just be 2. Or 0...
Has anyone tried running Mulldrifter in the tap-out versions? When Emeria is active, the draw two is decent, and with Venser and Flickerwisp, you can get quite a lot of draw power.
It doesn't play nice with Sun Titan, true, but I think it's an avenue worth exploring.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
Quite an anti-synergy. Looking at the evoke of Mulldrifter you go "That's great! I can evoke it and then get it back, perfect right?" but then realize Sunny does not bring it back at all. Stick to Wall of Omens & Court Hussar and blinking and recurring them, it's more than enough I say.
After some brewing I decided to go ahead and order 3 Flickerwisps and 1 Venser, the Sojourner. I doubt the cards will arrive in time for FNM, but hoooopefully for next weeks FNM.
What I was thinking is that the things we need to counter usually show up post T3 anyway and like mentioned above the Leaks have not been impressing me. Thus, I'm gonna try to mix the tapout version with the strength of Negate & Dispel in the current modern meta.
I've also moved away from the counterspells. In my experience, they weren't enough to put me over the hump against our worst matchups (combo). Paths, Bombs and Pods give us a decent shot against Twin Game 1 already which is probably the most important.
I'm experimenting with a Pillow Fort/Prison sideboard with Ghostly Prison (which can be borded in against many decks like Zoo, Elves, Merfolks and Grixis Delver, but it's mostly there for Twin), Stony Silence, Nevermore, Meddling Mage and I dabbled in Suppression Field (but I would need a true transformational sideboard for this one to be very good. Runed Halo could be very versatile, but I haven't bought them yet. I put 4 Negate in the board, none main.
I don't have any experience with the Pillow Fort, so I'm reading up on that to get some insight.
I'm also curious about an all-counterspell sideboard coming in over Verdicts, Spheres and the like...
I finally won a match against Amulet. Game 1 he mulliganed to 5 and I had answers for 2 Titans while I bashed him in with flyers. Game 2 he Hive Mind Pact'd me on T3. Game 3 was my favorite. T2 Wall T3 Flickerwisp on his bounce land putting him to 0 land, T4 Image on Flickerwisp flicking the other Wisp to get his Gem Mine off the field for his turn + Path on Wall to get to 5 mana. T5 Venser, and from there I kept stealing a land a turn keeping him from playing anything relevant while beating with flyers.
Has anyone tried running Mulldrifter in the tap-out versions?
I've had Mulldrifter on my mind, especially for the Gifts deck than might want some Shriekmaws too. T2 Shriek, T3 Mull, T4 Gifts for Shepherd and Rites, T5 go crazy). I'm not sure that draw 2 is a super interesting effect though, when Emeria is online, we have enough value. Certainly has a higher ceiling than Pilgrim's Eye but the early blocker can be relevant...
Mulldrifter is such a better top deck though. Considering I'm playing a Reveillark currently (it's on the bubble to be honest), Mulldrifter gains a lot of value... I'll give it a shot.
It's a recurring dilema with the deck. A number of cards really shine in the late game... but we need to get to the late game and out top end is already pretty good...
FDL42: Are you considering Twin a troubled MU? I mean, I went 0-2 vs it last FNM but I generally just feel like it's a nice and skill intensive MU (both games I lost on the smallest of misplays, or rather, misjudgments), but I guess tapout does kinda have a harder time VS it. But as you see in my post (and the decklist) it's not that I'm moving away from counterspells, I'm just moving away from Mana Leaks (and Spell Snares, for reasons mentioned below.)
I don't go all-out tap-out just because of the Wisps, I just want to see what their value feels like and can still hold up counterspells later (kinda like how UW control run 4 Kitchen Finks but still 5-8 CS). I actually upped my Negate-count! I want to have ~4 slots for counterspells even when trying these Flickerwisps, I'm just not sure how many and which out of Dispel, Negate, Leak, Remand & Ojutai's Command. Problem with Spell Snare is they are not something that you run 1-2, so if I wanted them they would just take all 4 slots for themselves and I doubt that's the right call - I think Snare belongs in lists with 6+ Counterspells probably.
Ferragamo: Short answer, yes. U-tron (havent played but seems obvious and others have said) is even worse because they can calmly take the long game even if you Quarter + Surgical a tron-piece. GR Tron is fast and filled with annoying PWs we're not built to handle, although I think our MU (or mine rather, I guess it's all about the SB) becomes rather fine postboard.
Great report. Only thing I have to say is WTF kind of meta you have. SO many unusual decks. Funny that when you faced the more common decks, you won as well. It happens I guess.
I'd also like to comment on Lone Missionary. He isn't great in every matchup but if you happen to face burn or aggro decks, he is a must draw. There really isn't anything better for that slot. Don't underestimate his 2/1 beat powers (much like snapcaster, it can get there). If you are in a matchup where you don't need them, consider sideboarding them out for other creatures? Unfortunately he is too vital in certain matchups to cut, or I'd be with you that he could go.
Ferragamo: Short answer, yes. U-tron (havent played but seems obvious and others have said) is even worse because they can calmly take the long game even if you Quarter + Surgical a tron-piece. GR Tron is fast and filled with annoying PWs we're not built to handle, although I think our MU (or mine rather, I guess it's all about the SB) becomes rather fine postboard.
U tron is definately worse as they can win without access to Tron (and run a lot of basics which make GQ worse). GR tron can be a bit of a crapshoot. I seem to have good luck with it but the main thing is to keep them off Tron. This is probably much easier for the Counter Control deck to do then the Tapout. Luckily with the printing of Crumble to Dust, I have seen 0 Tron decks in my meta because they hate just auto-losing to a card SO many decks can cast. I mean decks that run it are Jund, GR Tron (for mirror) and Grixis Control (I don't think the twin variant runs them because they are generally good in this matchup anyway). Not to mention any deck that runs R can throw it into sideboard if they know Tron will be in the meta. I don't think it eliminates it as a deck (because it is still really good) but I know the friends I have that play it saw a massive increase in "non-games" which steered them away from the deck.
As a UTron player I dont care much about LD, it does slow down though. Stony silence slows too, a little, but now choke is a *****, I use to repeal that thing away since I dropped the talismam of domimance as a U source. I find hilarious players bringing blood moon against me and timewalking themselves even twice with remand. Like sure go ahead, make all things be mountains and I'll just sit on top.
Sundering cannot resolve against this deck or it is pretty much GG, Paths should be for wurms, GQ for academy, maybe just maybe I wouldn't even bother keeping UTron away from tron since we go less one land while Utron keeps a blue source for every land that gets GQ, and I'm quite happy with that as blue mana is even more important in the matchup than having the actual tron, at least for me, Utron players that don't see this should stick to RG tron
Yeah usually my path to victory against UTron is to force you into a loop while holding counter magic for the bad stuff. Get rid of academy ruins, keep you off of tron and then hold up counter magic while using spellbombs to bounce Wurmcoils. You are right about Sundering Titan though, it really sets us back (though if you didn't "tron" it into play, its not a terrible loss if we have Titans already online).
I'm getting more and more inclined to going back to the Mortarpods. I just don't feel I've tested the Spell Snares enough yet. :/ I agree very much about your analysis of "in what meta is this good"! Interesting boarding in Spreading Seas vs Grixis.
EDIT: I'm actually starting to reconsider Mana Leak in the deck, too... We're playing Ghost Quarters + Paths and it just doesn't mesh that well with Leaks, beyond that we also like to go late and late the Leaks are usually dead too. Sure, they're great the times I have them early vs decks where they're good, but yeah...
Spreading seas is amazing and if we had any room, I'd be mainboarding them. I don't know if it's always the right card to bring in, but I'll be sideboarding it A LOT more, especially versus jund/junk/grixis. I'm not a super fan of Mana Leak either but we really don't have any better choices. Condescend could be... OK, punishes our opponents for trying to curve out.
Great report. Only thing I have to say is WTF kind of meta you have. SO many unusual decks. Funny that when you faced the more common decks, you won as well. It happens I guess.
I'd also like to comment on Lone Missionary. He isn't great in every matchup but if you happen to face burn or aggro decks, he is a must draw. There really isn't anything better for that slot. Don't underestimate his 2/1 beat powers (much like snapcaster, it can get there). If you are in a matchup where you don't need them, consider sideboarding them out for other creatures? Unfortunately he is too vital in certain matchups to cut, or I'd be with you that he could go.
There were 139 people so a few off-the-wall odd decks should be expected, but playing against 3 of them really sucked. Thinking back on it, I probably should have scooped my first match to avoid playing against the turn/tron players, they were playing right next to me and also drew.
I like lone missionary a lot. I've gone from 3 life to 10-15 within a turn or two once the engine was online more than a few times. I kind of want to cut one for another spellbomb though, with two in the sideboard. I'll try it out this Thursday, alongside -1 snapcaster +1 gifts and let you guys know how it goes.
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There are 2 primary reasons for this. One is that the tap out list has almost always used Venser for extra value, though that deck is harder positioned against the decks we are already bad against and thus hasn't placed as well up to this point. Second, the draw go list JUST added in Gideon with the release of BFZ because of Emeria Shepherd. Before Emeria Shepherd, running a 1-of planeswalker (even though he is crazy good) hasn't been good enough because once he dies thats it. Now there is another 1 of chance in our deck to recur him to field. That chance is enough to push us to adding 1 in the deck. This change to adding 1-ofs is also stemmed by the increase in the 1-of Gifts Ungivin which essentially set you up for victory whenever you get it off (though its not good enough to run too many of, 1 of seems decent enough as we dig pretty deep into our library anyway).
https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/comments/3pf9jn/56th_at_ohio_states_with_uw_emeria_control/
Swords isn't modern legal.
I'm getting more and more inclined to going back to the Mortarpods. I just don't feel I've tested the Spell Snares enough yet. :/ I agree very much about your analysis of "in what meta is this good"! Interesting boarding in Spreading Seas vs Grixis.
EDIT: I'm actually starting to reconsider Mana Leak in the deck, too... We're playing Ghost Quarters + Paths and it just doesn't mesh that well with Leaks, beyond that we also like to go late and late the Leaks are usually dead too. Sure, they're great the times I have them early vs decks where they're good, but yeah...
EDIT2: Anyone ever considered going to 25 lands? Many UW control-lists run 25-26. The reason lower has worked for us are the Pilgrims Eye, but most people are just running 2 of those nowadays anyway... and I'm still looking for a reason to cut them tbh (maybe for 1 land/1 mortarpod).
I meant to check before posting too...bah.
What I was thinking is that the things we need to counter usually show up post T3 anyway and like mentioned above the Leaks have not been impressing me. Thus, I'm gonna try to mix the tapout version with the strength of Negate & Dispel in the current modern meta. I will also go all crazy and go ahead and cut the 2 Pilgrim's Eye.
4 Wall of Omens
3 Court Hussar
3 Lone Missionary
3 Flickerwisp
2 Sun Titan
1 Emeria Shepherd
PWs:
1 Gideon Jura
1 Venser, the Sojourner
Spells:
4 Path to Exile
2 Detention Sphere
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
1 Mortarpod
2 Aether Spellbomb
1 Dispel
2 Negate
1 Ojutais Command
1 Unburial Rites
1 Gifts Ungiven
3 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Hallowed Fountain
1 Prairie Stream
1 Godless Shrine
2 Island
6 Plains
2 Stony Silence
2 Meddling Mage
2 Spreading Seas
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Celestial Purge
1 Disenchant
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Stonecloaker
Thinking something like this. This is 0 Pilgrim's and 25 lands. It's possible you can go 0/24 and it's possible it should just be 2/24. If I go back to 2 Pilgrim's Eye I would cut 1 land & 1 Negate/Dispel.
I realize this list looks like a million 1-offs, but keep in mind that:
{2 Sun Titan, 1 Emeria Shepherd, 1 Gideon Jura, 1 Venser(, 1 Gifts)} = 5-6 "threats"
{1 Supreme Verdict, 1 Wrath of God} = 2 sweepers
{1 Dispel, 1 Ojutai's Command, 2 Negate} = 4 counterspells
The true 1-off in the deck is the Mortarpod. I don't like the card and I would never like to draw two, but I do see the value of it. I want to try it out for real. Maybe it should just be 2. Or 0...
It doesn't play nice with Sun Titan, true, but I think it's an avenue worth exploring.
I've also moved away from the counterspells. In my experience, they weren't enough to put me over the hump against our worst matchups (combo). Paths, Bombs and Pods give us a decent shot against Twin Game 1 already which is probably the most important.
I'm experimenting with a Pillow Fort/Prison sideboard with Ghostly Prison (which can be borded in against many decks like Zoo, Elves, Merfolks and Grixis Delver, but it's mostly there for Twin), Stony Silence, Nevermore, Meddling Mage and I dabbled in Suppression Field (but I would need a true transformational sideboard for this one to be very good. Runed Halo could be very versatile, but I haven't bought them yet. I put 4 Negate in the board, none main.
I don't have any experience with the Pillow Fort, so I'm reading up on that to get some insight.
I'm also curious about an all-counterspell sideboard coming in over Verdicts, Spheres and the like...
I finally won a match against Amulet. Game 1 he mulliganed to 5 and I had answers for 2 Titans while I bashed him in with flyers. Game 2 he Hive Mind Pact'd me on T3. Game 3 was my favorite. T2 Wall T3 Flickerwisp on his bounce land putting him to 0 land, T4 Image on Flickerwisp flicking the other Wisp to get his Gem Mine off the field for his turn + Path on Wall to get to 5 mana. T5 Venser, and from there I kept stealing a land a turn keeping him from playing anything relevant while beating with flyers.
I've had Mulldrifter on my mind, especially for the Gifts deck than might want some Shriekmaws too. T2 Shriek, T3 Mull, T4 Gifts for Shepherd and Rites, T5 go crazy). I'm not sure that draw 2 is a super interesting effect though, when Emeria is online, we have enough value. Certainly has a higher ceiling than Pilgrim's Eye but the early blocker can be relevant...
Mulldrifter is such a better top deck though. Considering I'm playing a Reveillark currently (it's on the bubble to be honest), Mulldrifter gains a lot of value... I'll give it a shot.
It's a recurring dilema with the deck. A number of cards really shine in the late game... but we need to get to the late game and out top end is already pretty good...
I don't go all-out tap-out just because of the Wisps, I just want to see what their value feels like and can still hold up counterspells later (kinda like how UW control run 4 Kitchen Finks but still 5-8 CS). I actually upped my Negate-count! I want to have ~4 slots for counterspells even when trying these Flickerwisps, I'm just not sure how many and which out of Dispel, Negate, Leak, Remand & Ojutai's Command. Problem with Spell Snare is they are not something that you run 1-2, so if I wanted them they would just take all 4 slots for themselves and I doubt that's the right call - I think Snare belongs in lists with 6+ Counterspells probably.
Ferragamo: Short answer, yes. U-tron (havent played but seems obvious and others have said) is even worse because they can calmly take the long game even if you Quarter + Surgical a tron-piece. GR Tron is fast and filled with annoying PWs we're not built to handle, although I think our MU (or mine rather, I guess it's all about the SB) becomes rather fine postboard.
Great report. Only thing I have to say is WTF kind of meta you have. SO many unusual decks. Funny that when you faced the more common decks, you won as well. It happens I guess.
I'd also like to comment on Lone Missionary. He isn't great in every matchup but if you happen to face burn or aggro decks, he is a must draw. There really isn't anything better for that slot. Don't underestimate his 2/1 beat powers (much like snapcaster, it can get there). If you are in a matchup where you don't need them, consider sideboarding them out for other creatures? Unfortunately he is too vital in certain matchups to cut, or I'd be with you that he could go.
U tron is definately worse as they can win without access to Tron (and run a lot of basics which make GQ worse). GR tron can be a bit of a crapshoot. I seem to have good luck with it but the main thing is to keep them off Tron. This is probably much easier for the Counter Control deck to do then the Tapout. Luckily with the printing of Crumble to Dust, I have seen 0 Tron decks in my meta because they hate just auto-losing to a card SO many decks can cast. I mean decks that run it are Jund, GR Tron (for mirror) and Grixis Control (I don't think the twin variant runs them because they are generally good in this matchup anyway). Not to mention any deck that runs R can throw it into sideboard if they know Tron will be in the meta. I don't think it eliminates it as a deck (because it is still really good) but I know the friends I have that play it saw a massive increase in "non-games" which steered them away from the deck.
Yeah usually my path to victory against UTron is to force you into a loop while holding counter magic for the bad stuff. Get rid of academy ruins, keep you off of tron and then hold up counter magic while using spellbombs to bounce Wurmcoils. You are right about Sundering Titan though, it really sets us back (though if you didn't "tron" it into play, its not a terrible loss if we have Titans already online).
Spreading seas is amazing and if we had any room, I'd be mainboarding them. I don't know if it's always the right card to bring in, but I'll be sideboarding it A LOT more, especially versus jund/junk/grixis. I'm not a super fan of Mana Leak either but we really don't have any better choices. Condescend could be... OK, punishes our opponents for trying to curve out.
There were 139 people so a few off-the-wall odd decks should be expected, but playing against 3 of them really sucked. Thinking back on it, I probably should have scooped my first match to avoid playing against the turn/tron players, they were playing right next to me and also drew.
I like lone missionary a lot. I've gone from 3 life to 10-15 within a turn or two once the engine was online more than a few times. I kind of want to cut one for another spellbomb though, with two in the sideboard. I'll try it out this Thursday, alongside -1 snapcaster +1 gifts and let you guys know how it goes.