Ahhh gitaxian probe flash backs! Just playing. Real question, has anyone tried the breaking Kari version from the shoal version? I'm fairly new to Goryo and wondering what the different pros and cons of these 2 are. Also, why is the br version becoming increasingly popular as opposed to grixis? I want to play things like serum visions.
Ahhh gitaxian probe flash backs! Just playing. Real question, has anyone tried the breaking Kari version from the shoal version? I'm fairly new to Goryo and wondering what the different pros and cons of these 2 are. Also, why is the br version becoming increasingly popular as opposed to grixis? I want to play things like serum visions.
I haven't tried it, but I recently bought the Kari Zev's, 1 Yahenni's, and 2 Forbidden Orchard in order to test it.
I do know another Grishoalbrand player IRL and he said the Kari Zev's version is more all-in. It is quicker, but more all-in. He recently played it at TCG player Regionals in Bakersfield, CA. He started well, but the wheels came off after some poor variance. Just think of it as a quicker, more variance based Grishoalbrand. Until I test myself, that's how I will view it.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Ahhh gitaxian probe flash backs! Just playing. Real question, has anyone tried the breaking Kari version from the shoal version? I'm fairly new to Goryo and wondering what the different pros and cons of these 2 are. Also, why is the br version becoming increasingly popular as opposed to grixis? I want to play things like serum visions.
I haven't tried it, but I recently bought the Kari Zev's, 1 Yahenni's, and 2 Forbidden Orchard in order to test it.
I do know another Grishoalbrand player IRL and he said the Kari Zev's version is more all-in. It is quicker, but more all-in. He recently played it at TCG player Regionals in Bakersfield, CA. He started well, but the wheels came off after some poor variance. Just think of it as a quicker, more variance based Grishoalbrand. Until I test myself, that's how I will view it.
Seems weaker to permission too? Looks that way anyway. Sorcery speed also really bothers me.
yes i think the kari zev's version is a lot weaker than the shoal version against counters cause the deck can't maximize the splice mechanic..and it's manabase can be a real problem without shoals you can't maximize griselbrand either..and it dosen't even pack that much cantrips so you really have to wish for a really good opening hand for the deck to win..saw a couple of this decks have a go online..and it's a lot more inconsistent than the shoal version..
New to this thread, but wanted to provide my list as I see the expertise version of the deck has been the topic of some discussion. I watched some of Dan Ward's videos, including a sideboard guide here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsqhKvPa9uQ
I'm new to the deck in general, coming from Valakut Breach, but it's been a blast so far. Looking forward to playing this for the foreseeable future. Also wondering if it is worth finding a common ground between the two styles of decks to get the best of both worlds? Wondering if instead of 4 eldrazi, it would be better to use two Borborygmos Enraged as another way to win the game?
Ahhh gitaxian probe flash backs! Just playing. Real question, has anyone tried the breaking Kari version from the shoal version? I'm fairly new to Goryo and wondering what the different pros and cons of these 2 are. Also, why is the br version becoming increasingly popular as opposed to grixis? I want to play things like serum visions.
I haven't tried it, but I recently bought the Kari Zev's, 1 Yahenni's, and 2 Forbidden Orchard in order to test it.
I do know another Grishoalbrand player IRL and he said the Kari Zev's version is more all-in. It is quicker, but more all-in. He recently played it at TCG player Regionals in Bakersfield, CA. He started well, but the wheels came off after some poor variance. Just think of it as a quicker, more variance based Grishoalbrand. Until I test myself, that's how I will view it.
Seems weaker to permission too? Looks that way anyway. Sorcery speed also really bothers me.
That sounds like it is right. I actually theorized that it would be poor vs. Countermagic, but since I haven't played it yet, I forgot to mention this.
I also wanted to say that another player I know said that Breaking/Entering has a real fail rate - he estimated it at 30%, which seems bad sometimes.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Why is the br version more popular than grixis? Is grixis grishoalbrand a thing?
It is a thing but for the most part BR is better. BR has the more streamlined and less painful manabase, plus access to blood moon. Grixis gives you Izzet Charm (a solid inclusion) and Serum Visions (I've always found this to be... meh). Those extra life points add up though. I'd also say that the straight BR version has had more competitive success overall vs grixis shoal.
That being said, I think there are a few people in this thread that still play the grixis version.
Speaking of which, which matchups is Blood Moon actually useful for nowadays? Some of the popular matchups where Moon may be relevant:
Bant Eldrazi (pretty good)
Valakut (pretty good, but we are already favored)
Death's Shadow Jund (haven't tested this but seems pretty good in theory)
Jund (probably just on the play)
Abzan (probably just on the play)
Eldrazi Tron (deceptively unuseful as they can play around it with map/GQ)
Burn (arguably too slow and low impact considering they should have multiple creatures beating your face by Moon's resolution. Plus less lists are running maindeck AC/nacatl for blazes/skullcracks so less effective in that way too)
Gx Tron (can curve naturally into payoffs, already favored, often wouldn't even make it in time to shut off opposing RIPs vs GW)
So I don't see any matchups where it is a true matchup breaker where we're not already a big favourite. I think I'd prefer to shore up our BGx matchups with read the bones for the grind, or pushes/terminates to deal with problematic creatures. Thoughts?
Speaking of which, which matchups is Blood Moon actually useful for nowadays? Some of the popular matchups where Moon may be relevant:
Bant Eldrazi (pretty good)
Valakut (pretty good, but we are already favored)
Death's Shadow Jund (haven't tested this but seems pretty good in theory)
Jund (probably just on the play)
Abzan (probably just on the play)
Eldrazi Tron (deceptively unuseful as they can play around it with map/GQ)
Burn (arguably too slow and low impact considering they should have multiple creatures beating your face by Moon's resolution. Plus less lists are running maindeck AC/nacatl for blazes/skullcracks so less effective in that way too)
Gx Tron (can curve naturally into payoffs, already favored, often wouldn't even make it in time to shut off opposing RIPs vs GW)
So I don't see any matchups where it is a true matchup breaker where we're not already a big favourite. I think I'd prefer to shore up our BGx matchups with read the bones for the grind, or pushes/terminates to deal with problematic creatures. Thoughts?
Of the matchups you mentioned, I would definitely side it in vs. Jund/Abzan. It's our best card vs. them! We can turn 1 a Blood Moon. Sure, they can use the discard to get it out on turn 1, but that leaves the rest of our hand temporarily safe. If we Blood Moon them, it just buys us so much time that short of them destroying it right away, we're probably winning the game.
I side some vs. Scapeshift. I usually side some vs. Tron because it buys us a lot of time. This depends usually on how quick they're doing Tron in the matchup. If it's turn 3 every time, I side it in. Bant Eldrazi is a given.
I wouldn't side it vs. DSJ, but would do it vs. Eldrazi Tron. I've slowed E Tron down to cast a turn 4 and 4 Thought-Knot Seer by naturally drawing their singleton Wastes. Still I'm fine taking my chances with this sequence of cards.
Played a WNM with Grixis Expertise. I'm not sure if it belongs here.
Round 1 vs. Naya Burn. After taking a million damage, I do Expertise Emrakul to put him with no permanents at 2 life. He fetches next turn to 1 with tapped Sacred Foundry and I get there with Griselbrand. In the next game, he got me low after a mull and he burned me out. In the final game, I Goryo's Vengeance Emrakul after drawing Simian Spirit Guide and then finish him off with Collective Brutality. 2-1.
Round 2 vs. Slivers. I turn 3 him with Goryo's Vengeance/Emrakul, but he rebuilds and I find nothing. In the next 2 games, I get an early Griselbrand into more and it allows for a lot of play. Anger of the Gods gave me a LOT of time because I had some dead draws. 2-1.
Round 3 vs. Affinity with spice. I can't find any cards to do anything and a bunch of creatures and Master of Etherium kill me. In the next game, I mull with 4 lands, 2 Griselbrand, and Emrakul. My 6 and 5 card hands have 0 land. I mull to 4 and do some Serum Visions. He does Thoughtseize on my Anger of the Gods. I end up with Anger of the Gods, Yahenni's Expertise, and some other high cost removal while I get my face smashed in. 0-2.
Round 4 vs. Grixis Shadow? It looked like he had them when he played others, but he just drew pretty well against me without those. In the first game, I do Expertise, taking Gurmag Angler and after a Collective Brutality, Griselbrand and Angler do exact lethal. In the next game, I mull and he has Countersquall, Dispel for my Dispel, and I can't find any more lands to cast my other Dispel. Delvers had a clock or else I'd wait. In the last game, I can't find good cards after 4 Serum Visions. I end up going for Kari Zev's Expertise into Breaking/Entering because he has Mountain/Watery Grave, so can't cast Countersquall, but he has Mana Leak and I have 2 mana only. I had to go for it because Delver would kill me if he had double Bolt. My next draw was Dispel, although I don't know if it would be enough. 1-2.
I get 2-2 and was disappointed to lose the last round.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I've read most of the sb guides around the Internet. I still need to read the back pages here, but could someone break down sbing vs the major archetypes with grishoalbrand?
Also, does anyone have some good matches to watch? The only recent grishaolbrand series I've watched so far was that Brazilian streamer.
Got demolished at an $800 tournament today. 47 people, 6 rounds.
Round 1 vs. Burn. Came with 2 friends. Loaned this friend Burn that I built for him last night while the other friend ran his Jund. I lose the first game due to drawing no solid cards. I win the next game on turn 2. Then I get a strong hand in the final game and win on turn 3 or 4 while he's stuck on 1 land. Rough break for him as Burn nearly always gets exactly 3 or 4 lands in every game. 2-1.
Round 2 vs. Affinity. This was a camera match. Twitchtv.com at Spellhold Games. I know the guy. I think he's on Burn. I have a turn 4 Worldspine Wurm with Through the Breach and I hope to draw another Desperate Ritual, SSG, Shoal to Splice, to do it earlier. He gets Cranial Plating on the play by turn 2 and swing. Swing 2 more times and with 2 of his last 3 cards, double Galvanic Blast before I can kill him on my turn 4. Can't be mad - a turn 4 Affinity kill with no disruption is slow for them. In the next game, I draw a bunch of cards, keeping a hand with not much but draw. I end up doing a Nourishing Shoal and Worldspine Wurm, but never see Through the Breach, Goryo's Vengeance, Shatterstorm, or Griselbrand. 0-2.
Round 3 vs. Revolt Zoo. He mulls to 6 and drops Experiment One into Burning-Tree Emissary X 2 and ... NO Reckless Bushwhacker. He ends up getting there after I just draw 2 Nourishing Shoal and 2 Worldspine Wurm. In the next game, I do Anger of the Gods to wipe up some creatures after he DOESN'T do Reckless Bushwhacker. Haste is important and lucky for me to dodge. He gets a Thalia and had a turn 2 Rest in Peace. I have to wait until I have a lot of mana because he has mana up to potentially Path to Exile my Through the Breach/Worldspine Wurm. I wait and get to Inquisition of Kozilek to potentially take Path to Exile. He didn't have it and I Through the Breach Griselbrand and combo out. In the last game, I take some damage, but Through the Breach/Worldspine Wurm in time and have enough to make him scoop the next turn. Whew! 2-1.
Round 4 vs. GB Tron. I lose my 3rd die roll in a row. Why is it important? I keep a 1 land hand, preparing to discard Griselbrand, while I have land/SSG. He does Karn on turn 3 and now I have no land. Eleven draw steps later, I draw a land and it's too late. Disrupting my hand didn't matter with the Karn Liberated, but not drawing a land kept me from killing him time and time again. In the next game, he doesn't have Tron, but has turn 2 Relic of Progenitus with 1 mana up. I do a lot of card draw while he does some Duresses and leaves mana up for Relic of Progenitus. Eventually, he goes to end of turn Expedition Map with his last 2 mana to cast the Ulamog that he Ancient Stirrings for last turn. In response I go off with Griselbrand now that he's tapped down with Goryo's Vengeance and get Borborygmos Enraged to drop 7 lands on him. In the final game, I have my 3rd 1 mana 7 card hand. I mull to a 6 and only have a turn 2 Blood Moon, which stops Tron. On turn 4, I have 4 land and Blood Moon while he has 4 land. Three turns later and 3 draws of Goryo's Vengeance later, I get Karn Liberated. I had Through the Breach/Worldspine Wurm in hand when my land was exiled. Then I draw a land and he exiles another. He basically played nothing other than some Stars until turn 7 Karn and that got it done. I had 10 draw spells left in the deck and 13 more lands. I was pretty on tilt after this match. A guy there asked me why I was sweating. 1-2.
Round 5 vs. Affinity. He has a pretty slow hand and I turn 2 Borborygmos Enraged to discard 2 lands for Vault Skirge and Signal Pest. I keep a land and get beat down by double Memnite since he can't draw a 2nd land. I do some draw. I get nothing. I end up going through 31 cards, but lose to an eventual Steel Overseer that got the Memnites to 3/3s while I died. In the next game, I keep 5 land, Through the Breach, and Griselbrand. I know this is the best hand, but it relies 0% on my draws, which can only help with 4 Simian Spirit Guide and 2 Desperate Ritual. I have 4 draw steps before I turn 5 it. I draw 4 more lands. I win after comboing out, barely getting the Nourishing Shoal while having a bunch of Wurms. In the last game, it goes long and I draw a bunch of cards, but set up for a Through the Breach Worldspine Wurm to make him chump with his freshly cast Master of Etherium. He doesn't have enough because I'm at 10 after splicing Shoal to Breach the Wurm with his Arcbound Ravager that he got big after I cast Anger of the Gods. I love drawing slightly better than my opponent when I'm mathematically eliminated from top 8 contention. 2-1.
Round 6 vs. Lantern. This really makes my evening! When Lantern and Grishoalbrand were brought into the spotlight over a year ago, I curiously did the matchup and found that Lantern essentially had several turn 2-4 "kills" against Grishoalbrand. Two Pithing Needles and 1 Ensnaring Bridge is good enough. I keep a 1 land hand with Goryo's Vengeance, Looting, and Griselbrand. He was surprised I missed land drops. Then he played a turn 4 Pithing Needle on Borborygmos Enraged. Then I drew a land and swung him to 13. I drew some cards to have Through the Breach/Worldspine Wurm for next turn, but he top decked Ensnaring Bridge to stop that. So, that's why they play 4 - the best chance to top deck it! I played for a few more turns and then scooped. In the next game, I go off after a bunch of draw and turn 1 Inquisition of Kozilek clearing the way. I draw so many cards and get ... Shatterstorm. What luck! I do it, then get Wurm into play and get some tokens. Again he has no cards in hand. And the draw ... is NOT Ensnaring Bridge and he scoops. The last game was suuuuper awkward. He had a crappy hand and start, but had double Surgical Extraction, so I Inquisitioned Pithing Needle instead. He had a Lantern out, so I saw his next card revealed was Pithing Needle. Damn multiples of cards! He mills me to Worldspine Wurm and goes for the 3rd Surgical Extraction. I do Desperate Ritual, Simian Spirit Guide, Through the Breach in response, but he uses his 4th Surgical Extraction to nab the Wurm from my hand and then my only out is Borborygmos Enraged X 2 with Leyline of Sanctity in play. This game came down to me drawing the ***** out of my deck, thinking I could get the game, but alas my bottom 12 cards were 2 Shatterstorm and he finally drew some solid mill rocks and got both of them gone. I was super surprised that the 2 Shatterstorm were not the bottom 4 cards after the 2 cards I scryed to the bottom. I was nearly sure after shuffling several times that those cards would not show up, especially after 4 Surgical Extraction were gone. That would be too easy, right? 1-2.
I go 3-3. I was pretty salty about the Lantern match. It's just tough playing against the deck only a few times and seeing Ensnaring Bridge being top decked at least 3 times against me. But I will admit that it usually comes down to that or die, right? So, Lantern players probably "top deck" that hundreds of times since they also DON'T top deck it hundreds of times? I may try this again tomorrow in a GPT or I may be fed up. We'll see.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Stuck with Grishoalbrand again today. GPT with 30 players for 5 rounds of Swiss.
Round 1 vs. Affinity "with Spice." This happened to be the same guy I faced when I was on the Expertise deck. I get him in the first game after taking some swings with some small creatures. I turn 2ed Borborygmos Enraged, but only got a land for value off it. By the time he gets Arcbound Ravager, I draw my 5th mana source and Through the Breach Worldspine Wurm for the game. In the next game, he does some damage, but I keep drawing cards and get ... Shatterstorm. This clears the board and a few turns later after he gets some Blinkmoth beats in, I Through the Breach Worldspine Wurm and win. 2-0.
Round 2 vs. Jund. In the first game after a discard by me, he did a turn 2 Scavenging Ooze, but no discard. He was clocking me with a Scooze and then a Tarmogoyf, but when it was lethal, I drew Through the Breach for my Borborygmos Enraged. I use it on his turn to block the Goyf and kill the Scooze and then I draw a Worldspine Wurm and a Through the Breach a few turns later. In the next game, he is clocking me, but I play Blood Moon. I draw Worldspine Wurm to go with my Through the Breach and he scoops it up since he has 4 non basic lands in play. 2-0.
Round 3 vs. UR Control. I've played this guy a bunch when he's on Death and Taxes in Legacy and I'm on True-Name Sultai. We're 2-2 in those matches. In this game, he has Vendilion Clique and Shadow of Doubts me on turn 2. He counters a Goryo's Vengeance, but a few turns later I go for Through the Breach Worldspine Wurm and that's game. In the next game, he does some Ancestral Vision instead of Serum Visions this time. I go for turn 4 Through the Breach Griselbrand and he does Spell Snare. I do Pact of Negation and even had another. I go off and win with Borborygmos Enraged. He seemed somewhat salty and said that I drew "the best hand I could have possibly drawn." Pretty easy to say by someone who's never played the deck. 2-0.
Round 4 vs. UWrb Thopter Gifts. We ID since 3-0-2 makes it. 0-0-3.
Round 5 vs. GB Tron. We ID since 3-0-2 makes it. 0-0-3.
Top 8 vs. UWrb Thopter Gifts. I keep a hand with Goryo's Vengeance and Griselbrand, but it gets countered in the midgame and I have nothing else as I peel 7 lands out of 8 cards. Desperate Ritual was the other card. In the next game, I build up and go off with double Pact of Negation backup. I don't have to use the 2nd one, but do it anyway in response to his Path to Exile on the stack. This was after I drew what I needed to discard enough lands to make the Griselbrand combat damage lethal. In the last game, he mulls to 4 cards. Pretty damn unlucky. I build up to what I need after he does 4 Serum Visions. I go for it with 1 Pact of Negation backup and the rest is easy. I technically won 2-1, but scooped to him 1-2 because my friend got knocked out of the GPT.
I end up 3-1-2, but technically would have won 4 matches. The draws are whatever. I hate taking the easy route, but sometimes it's better to just guarantee the top 8, especially after my debacle yesterday. I came with 2 friends. The one driving didn't make the top 8 and really wanted to go. It was a rough day for him. My other friend needed the Byes, so played for them, but lost in the first round of the top 8. I actually need 300 more points to get 2 Byes by Planeswalker points, but decided to just go home with them since the prizes were split anyway.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Is everyone favoring cathartic over tormenting? I find discarding 2 to be a crap shoot sometimes.
Also, for the eldrazi and tron match up, is blood moon worth siding in? There's tons of tron at my shop again, and they all seem to have 5+ hate cards against me, so i'm thinking about upping my sb to battle them.
Is everyone favoring cathartic over tormenting? I find discarding 2 to be a crap shoot sometimes.
Also, for the eldrazi and tron match up, is blood moon worth siding in? There's tons of tron at my shop again, and they all seem to have 5+ hate cards against me, so i'm thinking about upping my sb to battle them.
I haven't put in enough games with Cathartic Reunion (life happens), but I still favor tormenting. I will continue to run Reunion for the time being, but ya... crap shoot is a good way to describe it. It probably is better since it digs deeper, but the discard 2 makes for some really awkward decisions.
No. We cannot afford to run a tapland, even if it offers some utility in drawing a card if we are flooded (where we have lootings and co to deal with). Also, we really do not want to get into the late game with this deck, cause usually we are already dead at that point.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Regarding the eldarazitrons & bant eldarazi matchups..other than blood moons what do you guys think of other sb cards that can help us in the matchup?..i'm currently playing the B/R shoal version.
Regarding the eldarazitrons & bant eldarazi matchups..other than blood moons what do you guys think of other sb cards that can help us in the matchup?..i'm currently playing the B/R shoal version.
You may want to consider some artifact hate for grafdigger's cage or some targeted removal IF you run it in the side (terminate or lightning axe goes in and out of my sideboard depending on the meta). I wouldn't go too heavy though. Neither of these decks have been bad in my experience with my losses coming mostly from turn 1/2 cages with me flooding out on goryo's vengeance or not drawing lands.
Regarding the eldarazitrons & bant eldarazi matchups..other than blood moons what do you guys think of other sb cards that can help us in the matchup?..i'm currently playing the B/R shoal version.
You may want to consider some artifact hate for grafdigger's cage or some targeted removal IF you run it in the side (terminate or lightning axe goes in and out of my sideboard depending on the meta). I wouldn't go too heavy though. Neither of these decks have been bad in my experience with my losses coming mostly from turn 1/2 cages with me flooding out on goryo's vengeance or not drawing lands.
I agree with this. These matchups are pretty good and your losses probably come from the grave hate and then drawing a bunch of Goryo's Vengeances shortly afterward with no way to Loot them away. Blood Moon should be enough to slow Tron down a turn or 2 so that you can go off. Against Bant Eldrazi, it could possibly do a lot more than slow them down just 1-2 turns.
Is everyone favoring cathartic over tormenting? I find discarding 2 to be a crap shoot sometimes.
Also, for the eldrazi and tron match up, is blood moon worth siding in? There's tons of tron at my shop again, and they all seem to have 5+ hate cards against me, so i'm thinking about upping my sb to battle them.
I used to hate Cathartic Reunion in this deck. It was the number one card I would side out. But now I have seen the power of the card (ie. I have had better situations with it). It still gets sided out vs. some decks, but powering through your deck to find something is much easier with multiple copies of this card. I had a game recently where I won simply because of Cathartic Reunion. After doing the THIRD Cathartic Reunion, I finally found what I needed and proceeded to win. There's no way I go through 9 cards and find that card in time without Cathartic Reunion!
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
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I haven't tried it, but I recently bought the Kari Zev's, 1 Yahenni's, and 2 Forbidden Orchard in order to test it.
I do know another Grishoalbrand player IRL and he said the Kari Zev's version is more all-in. It is quicker, but more all-in. He recently played it at TCG player Regionals in Bakersfield, CA. He started well, but the wheels came off after some poor variance. Just think of it as a quicker, more variance based Grishoalbrand. Until I test myself, that's how I will view it.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Seems weaker to permission too? Looks that way anyway. Sorcery speed also really bothers me.
New to this thread, but wanted to provide my list as I see the expertise version of the deck has been the topic of some discussion. I watched some of Dan Ward's videos, including a sideboard guide here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsqhKvPa9uQ
I'm new to the deck in general, coming from Valakut Breach, but it's been a blast so far. Looking forward to playing this for the foreseeable future. Also wondering if it is worth finding a common ground between the two styles of decks to get the best of both worlds? Wondering if instead of 4 eldrazi, it would be better to use two Borborygmos Enraged as another way to win the game?
1x Darkslick Shores
1x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Steam Vents
1x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
1x Mountain
1x Island
2x Forbidden Orchard
2x Spirebluff Canal
1x Watery Grave
4x Griselbrand
2x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4x Simian Spirit Guide
Spells
4x Serum Visions
4x Faithless Looting
4x Goryo's Vengeance
4x Breaking/Entering
4x Kari Zev's Expertise
2x Izzet Charm
3x Thoughtseize
3x Through the Breach
I also wanted to say that another player I know said that Breaking/Entering has a real fail rate - he estimated it at 30%, which seems bad sometimes.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)It is a thing but for the most part BR is better. BR has the more streamlined and less painful manabase, plus access to blood moon. Grixis gives you Izzet Charm (a solid inclusion) and Serum Visions (I've always found this to be... meh). Those extra life points add up though. I'd also say that the straight BR version has had more competitive success overall vs grixis shoal.
That being said, I think there are a few people in this thread that still play the grixis version.
Bant Eldrazi (pretty good)
Valakut (pretty good, but we are already favored)
Death's Shadow Jund (haven't tested this but seems pretty good in theory)
Jund (probably just on the play)
Abzan (probably just on the play)
Eldrazi Tron (deceptively unuseful as they can play around it with map/GQ)
Burn (arguably too slow and low impact considering they should have multiple creatures beating your face by Moon's resolution. Plus less lists are running maindeck AC/nacatl for blazes/skullcracks so less effective in that way too)
Gx Tron (can curve naturally into payoffs, already favored, often wouldn't even make it in time to shut off opposing RIPs vs GW)
So I don't see any matchups where it is a true matchup breaker where we're not already a big favourite. I think I'd prefer to shore up our BGx matchups with read the bones for the grind, or pushes/terminates to deal with problematic creatures. Thoughts?
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
Of the matchups you mentioned, I would definitely side it in vs. Jund/Abzan. It's our best card vs. them! We can turn 1 a Blood Moon. Sure, they can use the discard to get it out on turn 1, but that leaves the rest of our hand temporarily safe. If we Blood Moon them, it just buys us so much time that short of them destroying it right away, we're probably winning the game.
I side some vs. Scapeshift. I usually side some vs. Tron because it buys us a lot of time. This depends usually on how quick they're doing Tron in the matchup. If it's turn 3 every time, I side it in. Bant Eldrazi is a given.
I wouldn't side it vs. DSJ, but would do it vs. Eldrazi Tron. I've slowed E Tron down to cast a turn 4 and 4 Thought-Knot Seer by naturally drawing their singleton Wastes. Still I'm fine taking my chances with this sequence of cards.
Played a WNM with Grixis Expertise. I'm not sure if it belongs here.
Round 1 vs. Naya Burn. After taking a million damage, I do Expertise Emrakul to put him with no permanents at 2 life. He fetches next turn to 1 with tapped Sacred Foundry and I get there with Griselbrand. In the next game, he got me low after a mull and he burned me out. In the final game, I Goryo's Vengeance Emrakul after drawing Simian Spirit Guide and then finish him off with Collective Brutality. 2-1.
Round 2 vs. Slivers. I turn 3 him with Goryo's Vengeance/Emrakul, but he rebuilds and I find nothing. In the next 2 games, I get an early Griselbrand into more and it allows for a lot of play. Anger of the Gods gave me a LOT of time because I had some dead draws. 2-1.
Round 3 vs. Affinity with spice. I can't find any cards to do anything and a bunch of creatures and Master of Etherium kill me. In the next game, I mull with 4 lands, 2 Griselbrand, and Emrakul. My 6 and 5 card hands have 0 land. I mull to 4 and do some Serum Visions. He does Thoughtseize on my Anger of the Gods. I end up with Anger of the Gods, Yahenni's Expertise, and some other high cost removal while I get my face smashed in. 0-2.
Round 4 vs. Grixis Shadow? It looked like he had them when he played others, but he just drew pretty well against me without those. In the first game, I do Expertise, taking Gurmag Angler and after a Collective Brutality, Griselbrand and Angler do exact lethal. In the next game, I mull and he has Countersquall, Dispel for my Dispel, and I can't find any more lands to cast my other Dispel. Delvers had a clock or else I'd wait. In the last game, I can't find good cards after 4 Serum Visions. I end up going for Kari Zev's Expertise into Breaking/Entering because he has Mountain/Watery Grave, so can't cast Countersquall, but he has Mana Leak and I have 2 mana only. I had to go for it because Delver would kill me if he had double Bolt. My next draw was Dispel, although I don't know if it would be enough. 1-2.
I get 2-2 and was disappointed to lose the last round.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Also, does anyone have some good matches to watch? The only recent grishaolbrand series I've watched so far was that Brazilian streamer.
Round 1 vs. Burn. Came with 2 friends. Loaned this friend Burn that I built for him last night while the other friend ran his Jund. I lose the first game due to drawing no solid cards. I win the next game on turn 2. Then I get a strong hand in the final game and win on turn 3 or 4 while he's stuck on 1 land. Rough break for him as Burn nearly always gets exactly 3 or 4 lands in every game. 2-1.
Round 2 vs. Affinity. This was a camera match. Twitchtv.com at Spellhold Games. I know the guy. I think he's on Burn. I have a turn 4 Worldspine Wurm with Through the Breach and I hope to draw another Desperate Ritual, SSG, Shoal to Splice, to do it earlier. He gets Cranial Plating on the play by turn 2 and swing. Swing 2 more times and with 2 of his last 3 cards, double Galvanic Blast before I can kill him on my turn 4. Can't be mad - a turn 4 Affinity kill with no disruption is slow for them. In the next game, I draw a bunch of cards, keeping a hand with not much but draw. I end up doing a Nourishing Shoal and Worldspine Wurm, but never see Through the Breach, Goryo's Vengeance, Shatterstorm, or Griselbrand. 0-2.
Round 3 vs. Revolt Zoo. He mulls to 6 and drops Experiment One into Burning-Tree Emissary X 2 and ... NO Reckless Bushwhacker. He ends up getting there after I just draw 2 Nourishing Shoal and 2 Worldspine Wurm. In the next game, I do Anger of the Gods to wipe up some creatures after he DOESN'T do Reckless Bushwhacker. Haste is important and lucky for me to dodge. He gets a Thalia and had a turn 2 Rest in Peace. I have to wait until I have a lot of mana because he has mana up to potentially Path to Exile my Through the Breach/Worldspine Wurm. I wait and get to Inquisition of Kozilek to potentially take Path to Exile. He didn't have it and I Through the Breach Griselbrand and combo out. In the last game, I take some damage, but Through the Breach/Worldspine Wurm in time and have enough to make him scoop the next turn. Whew! 2-1.
Round 4 vs. GB Tron. I lose my 3rd die roll in a row. Why is it important? I keep a 1 land hand, preparing to discard Griselbrand, while I have land/SSG. He does Karn on turn 3 and now I have no land. Eleven draw steps later, I draw a land and it's too late. Disrupting my hand didn't matter with the Karn Liberated, but not drawing a land kept me from killing him time and time again. In the next game, he doesn't have Tron, but has turn 2 Relic of Progenitus with 1 mana up. I do a lot of card draw while he does some Duresses and leaves mana up for Relic of Progenitus. Eventually, he goes to end of turn Expedition Map with his last 2 mana to cast the Ulamog that he Ancient Stirrings for last turn. In response I go off with Griselbrand now that he's tapped down with Goryo's Vengeance and get Borborygmos Enraged to drop 7 lands on him. In the final game, I have my 3rd 1 mana 7 card hand. I mull to a 6 and only have a turn 2 Blood Moon, which stops Tron. On turn 4, I have 4 land and Blood Moon while he has 4 land. Three turns later and 3 draws of Goryo's Vengeance later, I get Karn Liberated. I had Through the Breach/Worldspine Wurm in hand when my land was exiled. Then I draw a land and he exiles another. He basically played nothing other than some Stars until turn 7 Karn and that got it done. I had 10 draw spells left in the deck and 13 more lands. I was pretty on tilt after this match. A guy there asked me why I was sweating. 1-2.
Round 5 vs. Affinity. He has a pretty slow hand and I turn 2 Borborygmos Enraged to discard 2 lands for Vault Skirge and Signal Pest. I keep a land and get beat down by double Memnite since he can't draw a 2nd land. I do some draw. I get nothing. I end up going through 31 cards, but lose to an eventual Steel Overseer that got the Memnites to 3/3s while I died. In the next game, I keep 5 land, Through the Breach, and Griselbrand. I know this is the best hand, but it relies 0% on my draws, which can only help with 4 Simian Spirit Guide and 2 Desperate Ritual. I have 4 draw steps before I turn 5 it. I draw 4 more lands. I win after comboing out, barely getting the Nourishing Shoal while having a bunch of Wurms. In the last game, it goes long and I draw a bunch of cards, but set up for a Through the Breach Worldspine Wurm to make him chump with his freshly cast Master of Etherium. He doesn't have enough because I'm at 10 after splicing Shoal to Breach the Wurm with his Arcbound Ravager that he got big after I cast Anger of the Gods. I love drawing slightly better than my opponent when I'm mathematically eliminated from top 8 contention. 2-1.
Round 6 vs. Lantern. This really makes my evening! When Lantern and Grishoalbrand were brought into the spotlight over a year ago, I curiously did the matchup and found that Lantern essentially had several turn 2-4 "kills" against Grishoalbrand. Two Pithing Needles and 1 Ensnaring Bridge is good enough. I keep a 1 land hand with Goryo's Vengeance, Looting, and Griselbrand. He was surprised I missed land drops. Then he played a turn 4 Pithing Needle on Borborygmos Enraged. Then I drew a land and swung him to 13. I drew some cards to have Through the Breach/Worldspine Wurm for next turn, but he top decked Ensnaring Bridge to stop that. So, that's why they play 4 - the best chance to top deck it! I played for a few more turns and then scooped. In the next game, I go off after a bunch of draw and turn 1 Inquisition of Kozilek clearing the way. I draw so many cards and get ... Shatterstorm. What luck! I do it, then get Wurm into play and get some tokens. Again he has no cards in hand. And the draw ... is NOT Ensnaring Bridge and he scoops. The last game was suuuuper awkward. He had a crappy hand and start, but had double Surgical Extraction, so I Inquisitioned Pithing Needle instead. He had a Lantern out, so I saw his next card revealed was Pithing Needle. Damn multiples of cards! He mills me to Worldspine Wurm and goes for the 3rd Surgical Extraction. I do Desperate Ritual, Simian Spirit Guide, Through the Breach in response, but he uses his 4th Surgical Extraction to nab the Wurm from my hand and then my only out is Borborygmos Enraged X 2 with Leyline of Sanctity in play. This game came down to me drawing the ***** out of my deck, thinking I could get the game, but alas my bottom 12 cards were 2 Shatterstorm and he finally drew some solid mill rocks and got both of them gone. I was super surprised that the 2 Shatterstorm were not the bottom 4 cards after the 2 cards I scryed to the bottom. I was nearly sure after shuffling several times that those cards would not show up, especially after 4 Surgical Extraction were gone. That would be too easy, right? 1-2.
I go 3-3. I was pretty salty about the Lantern match. It's just tough playing against the deck only a few times and seeing Ensnaring Bridge being top decked at least 3 times against me. But I will admit that it usually comes down to that or die, right? So, Lantern players probably "top deck" that hundreds of times since they also DON'T top deck it hundreds of times? I may try this again tomorrow in a GPT or I may be fed up. We'll see.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Round 1 vs. Affinity "with Spice." This happened to be the same guy I faced when I was on the Expertise deck. I get him in the first game after taking some swings with some small creatures. I turn 2ed Borborygmos Enraged, but only got a land for value off it. By the time he gets Arcbound Ravager, I draw my 5th mana source and Through the Breach Worldspine Wurm for the game. In the next game, he does some damage, but I keep drawing cards and get ... Shatterstorm. This clears the board and a few turns later after he gets some Blinkmoth beats in, I Through the Breach Worldspine Wurm and win. 2-0.
Round 2 vs. Jund. In the first game after a discard by me, he did a turn 2 Scavenging Ooze, but no discard. He was clocking me with a Scooze and then a Tarmogoyf, but when it was lethal, I drew Through the Breach for my Borborygmos Enraged. I use it on his turn to block the Goyf and kill the Scooze and then I draw a Worldspine Wurm and a Through the Breach a few turns later. In the next game, he is clocking me, but I play Blood Moon. I draw Worldspine Wurm to go with my Through the Breach and he scoops it up since he has 4 non basic lands in play. 2-0.
Round 3 vs. UR Control. I've played this guy a bunch when he's on Death and Taxes in Legacy and I'm on True-Name Sultai. We're 2-2 in those matches. In this game, he has Vendilion Clique and Shadow of Doubts me on turn 2. He counters a Goryo's Vengeance, but a few turns later I go for Through the Breach Worldspine Wurm and that's game. In the next game, he does some Ancestral Vision instead of Serum Visions this time. I go for turn 4 Through the Breach Griselbrand and he does Spell Snare. I do Pact of Negation and even had another. I go off and win with Borborygmos Enraged. He seemed somewhat salty and said that I drew "the best hand I could have possibly drawn." Pretty easy to say by someone who's never played the deck. 2-0.
Round 4 vs. UWrb Thopter Gifts. We ID since 3-0-2 makes it. 0-0-3.
Round 5 vs. GB Tron. We ID since 3-0-2 makes it. 0-0-3.
Top 8 vs. UWrb Thopter Gifts. I keep a hand with Goryo's Vengeance and Griselbrand, but it gets countered in the midgame and I have nothing else as I peel 7 lands out of 8 cards. Desperate Ritual was the other card. In the next game, I build up and go off with double Pact of Negation backup. I don't have to use the 2nd one, but do it anyway in response to his Path to Exile on the stack. This was after I drew what I needed to discard enough lands to make the Griselbrand combat damage lethal. In the last game, he mulls to 4 cards. Pretty damn unlucky. I build up to what I need after he does 4 Serum Visions. I go for it with 1 Pact of Negation backup and the rest is easy. I technically won 2-1, but scooped to him 1-2 because my friend got knocked out of the GPT.
I end up 3-1-2, but technically would have won 4 matches. The draws are whatever. I hate taking the easy route, but sometimes it's better to just guarantee the top 8, especially after my debacle yesterday. I came with 2 friends. The one driving didn't make the top 8 and really wanted to go. It was a rough day for him. My other friend needed the Byes, so played for them, but lost in the first round of the top 8. I actually need 300 more points to get 2 Byes by Planeswalker points, but decided to just go home with them since the prizes were split anyway.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Also, for the eldrazi and tron match up, is blood moon worth siding in? There's tons of tron at my shop again, and they all seem to have 5+ hate cards against me, so i'm thinking about upping my sb to battle them.
I haven't put in enough games with Cathartic Reunion (life happens), but I still favor tormenting. I will continue to run Reunion for the time being, but ya... crap shoot is a good way to describe it. It probably is better since it digs deeper, but the discard 2 makes for some really awkward decisions.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
You may want to consider some artifact hate for grafdigger's cage or some targeted removal IF you run it in the side (terminate or lightning axe goes in and out of my sideboard depending on the meta). I wouldn't go too heavy though. Neither of these decks have been bad in my experience with my losses coming mostly from turn 1/2 cages with me flooding out on goryo's vengeance or not drawing lands.
I agree with this. These matchups are pretty good and your losses probably come from the grave hate and then drawing a bunch of Goryo's Vengeances shortly afterward with no way to Loot them away. Blood Moon should be enough to slow Tron down a turn or 2 so that you can go off. Against Bant Eldrazi, it could possibly do a lot more than slow them down just 1-2 turns.
I used to hate Cathartic Reunion in this deck. It was the number one card I would side out. But now I have seen the power of the card (ie. I have had better situations with it). It still gets sided out vs. some decks, but powering through your deck to find something is much easier with multiple copies of this card. I had a game recently where I won simply because of Cathartic Reunion. After doing the THIRD Cathartic Reunion, I finally found what I needed and proceeded to win. There's no way I go through 9 cards and find that card in time without Cathartic Reunion!
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)