It's been pretty strong in playtesting. EE is just so explosive. I like Huntmaster because it allows me to avoid Dryad Arbor, which in my experience, hinders the manabase a bit. It's a strong diet-Natural Order off Voice especially. Conscripts being more easily accessible allows me to cut Exarch which is low velocity, and one I rarely cut post-board (unlike Exarch).
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Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New
Depends, IMO, on whether or not you want to grind out value or try to combo off faster. Evo helps you combo out faster, and also find silver bullets. Nahiri does a little bit of everything. I think that the evo version is dramatically worse against jund/delver/jeskai (decks that play bolt), and some amount better against infect and spell-based combo.
Thanks for all the advice! I took your guys advice and also re-read the primer that Jeff originally created and really considered the idea of "What role should I be playing in this match up" and ended up going 3-1 at the last modern event I went to!
My matchups were -
Dredge 0-2
Both games I just got completely blown out, he was too fast and I had no specific main or sideboard hate for his deck besides scooze.
Eldrazi and Taxes 2-0
Both games I just out valued him, pontiff was unexpectedly a very big player in both matches.
Infect 2-0
Just blocked all his creatures game 1 and comboed out.
game 2 he didn't draw enough gas and I had a ton of removal and blockers.
Jeskai Control With Gifts 2-1
This one was interesting, my strategy was to just steadily apply pressure the whole game but not over commit always keeping back creatures in my hand in case of a board wipe. Game 1 I was able to out value and pace him. Game 2 he got an Iona on the field by turn 5 and named white, I tried to combo out as a last ditch effort, with one card in his hand and it was path. Game 3 I kept a hand mulliganing to 6 with 2 restos and I believe it had a birds in it, and a P and K on top. It seemed a bit risky but I decided to keep it because his only card that can remove resto once it hits is path, and I figured having all of that value was enough to apply lot's of pressure and put him on a fast clock and it worked.
Overall I'm really happy with the results.
I also changed my mainboard a little, taking out a noble hierarch for a wall of roots, and a kitchen finks for a Eidolon of Rhetoric.
Now about nahiri and eldritch evolution, I agree that evolution probably pushes Nahiri out of the deck, and honestly unless you are running the Nahiri Emrakul version I kinda am starting to feel like Nahiri under preforms a lot. I'm considering cutting them from my list because every game I play with them it just feels like they don't really do anything. Now they are better in midrange matchups but honestly I find myself boarding them out more often then not, maybe it would be an interesting choice to put some in the sideboard.
A quick suggestion for the dredge matchup: You can win this two ways - either combo out before he kills you (with chord - you're not going to be able to block his stuff enough with Nahiri), or by grinding him out with scavenging ooze. It's important to understand, if you're trying to combo him out, that you're on a pretty short clock - turn 6 at the latest, probably turn 4 or 5. I mulligan more aggressively against Dredge than against any other deck - I'm looking for scooze in opening hand, or ramp and chord so I can use scooze around turn 3.
A turn 3 scooze activation comes off of any of the following: Scooze in hand (best), Chord + Wall of Roots (2nd best). Bird, 2 or 3, chord in opening hand also gets you scooze, but it's a turn 4 activation, which is marginally keepable. Don't keep anything worse - you can literally beat the entire dredge deck with 1 scavenging ooze.
Depends on the Dredge deck. If they Conflagrate your board it's hard to Chord for Ooze and beat their zombie vampire illusion army. But the issue with dredge has always been it's a slower kill than most combo decks. I just try to assemble my combo as quick as possible, which usually works (especially with Eldritch).
It's also why I like 1 Relic of Progenitus in the side. It's good against general tombstone shenanigans, plus it's solid against Snapcaster decks.
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Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New
Went 2-1-1 tonight using a variant of Hoogland's older lists with no Nahiri.
Matches:
2-0 Abzan
Game 1: I stabilized at 8 life against his ground creature but he still had six spirits on board and I only had an angel. Left significant mana open each turn so I guess he was afraid of being blown out. Won after I finally drew chord and fetched pia and kiran, which shut the door as he was hellbent.
Sideboard: +1 relic of progenitus, +1 kitchen finks, +1 pontiff of orzhov
Game 2: He starts off with two inquisitions and a thoughtseize followed by a painful truths for three and I thought the game was over. Several wall of omens and an resto angel later, I found myself in a dominant position even after he killed the angel. Soon I drew Kiki-jiki and he was not able to answer the Kiki+Wall of Omens combo.
1-2 Jund
Game 1: Mulligan to five and he has inquisition into a Liliana that I am not able to answer and I lose.
Game 2: He gets a little color screwed in the beginning and makes a misplace as he forgets that wall of roots can activate once per turn, allowing me to blow him out with a pia and kiran thopter sacrifice.
Game 3: Honestly I lost because he got three activations of bob before I drew a path. He has a stream of removal and I lose to the early card advantage.
1-1 Grixis Delver
Game 1: He serum visions turn 1, putting both cards on the bottom, and plays two delvers turn 2 that blind flip turn 3. My hand can't mount a flying defense as he has disruption for a angels and burn.
Game 2: I have a fast hand of wall of roots into either angel or pi and kiran. He terminates the wall turn 2 and taps out to play a snapcaster+serum visions turn 3. Seeing this as my only chance to jam worship and knowing grixis has a hell of a time removing enchantments, I slam it despite having no creatures. Well, it ends up working out as 40 minutes later he mills himself out, unable to clear my board, and the round time limit is up.
Bant Eldrazi:
Game 1: Great hand of paths, voices and wall of omens as I was expecting infect. Either way, it works out as I draw needed lands and angel, giving me the upper hand in card advantage.
Sideboard: +1 worship, +1 kitchen finks, +1 fulminator, + slaughter games (this was a massive mistake as I was tired at this point)
Game 2: He has a turn 2 thought-knot seer (taking worship) followed by turn 5 and 6 reality smashers
Game 3: I build up a large board presence and he doesn't draw smasher but does play worship. Luckily I left in a qasali pridemage just for such shenanigans.
Lessons learned:
1. People are terrible at remembering that wall of roots produces mana, especially if it has been tapped out to cast a chord.
2. Bob is a beating and needs to be removed asap.
3. Worship is a hell of a card against unsuspecting opponents
4. Reality smasher is hard for our deck to deal with as we can't just chump and path is a two-for-one in the opponent's favor.
I think grixis delver felt like a poor matchup, bant eldrazi completed depended on whether or not they had the turn 4 accelerated reality smasher, abzan was favorable, and jund was favorable.
Im thinking in buy this deck for my local competitive events, but before i want ask to the experts (you) if Voice is so necesary? i want test the blue version (with elenndra), but i dont have other deck who need voice.
TY!
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Modern: Jeskai control / Jeskai Geist
Death and taxes / UW control
I'm about to take this controversy to a whole new level. Yes, Eldritch Evolution does push a card out of the deck. But it's not Nahiri.
It's Chord.
Tested this when people were arguing about it 3 pages ago, don't think it's chord. Instant speed is too important against too many decks. Against tap-out decks, it's important to do stuff when they can't answer it. Against instant-speed decks, it's important to be able to interact on the stack. Unlike other combo decks, our combo is suuuper easy to interact with. I'm sort of of the opinion that EE isn't quite good enough to make this deck, but I tend to play a slower, jund-ier game than the Ludas of the world.
Be happy to hear your feelings about what matchups you think Nahiri/EE has that are advantageous over Nahiri/Chord and EE/Chord, though. Welcome to the forums, and I love your name. =)
Yes, Voice is absolutely necessary. It gives us a much-needed edge against control and Jund decks. I would never run fewer than three copies.
I honestly think running less than four is a mistake. Voice is like the 2nd or 3rd best card in your deck in every single matchup, and the best card in your deck in a number of matchups. And this is in a deck that isn't running EE. In an EE-heavy deck, it's baffling to me why you wouldn't want to run one of your best things to sacrifice.
Played last night with evo. Naya splash blue for Exarch, staticastereally. Glen Electra and negates in the board.
Match 1: Esper Stuff
1-2
Game 1: I grind him out of resources with voices and turning a finks into a kiki.
Game 2: He lands Sun Titan to start buying back ghost quarters, then starts the ghost quarter parade.
Game 3: Sun Titan buying back a LotV brutal, then elesh norn hardcast. really brutal.
Boggles: 2-0
Game 1: keep a hand with 2 lands bird and spellskite. I know this guy plays boggles so easy keep. find finks and 2 evolutions combo pretty quick.
Game 2: Mull to 6 keep 2 lands spellskite. (having 2 after board) it winds up being not necessary. since he goes all in on a spirit dancer that I path. I play spellskite he plays a boggle and paths skite and enchants. He plays a bunch of auras. I draw explosives and it's basically gg from there.
Jund: 2-0
Game 1: I have all the 2 for 1s. 1 voice, 2 finks, bird, 3 lands. I play bird, not bolted, draw Evo off the top, Evo bird into magus, gg.
Game 2: I land thrun and turn a voice into Sigarda.
Evo is good, not enough 3 drops to get into 5 drops. and not enough sweet 4 drops for my 2 drops. it felt like.
Some salient notes: I goldfished 50 games of evo-based chord and 50 games of nahiri-based chord, with the intention of figuring out how much additional speed you get. Using Luda's list and my list as tests.
Results:
The evo-chord list combos off on 4 about 15% of the time. Combos off or kills by 5 60% of the time. Combos off or kills by 6 80% of the time.
The nahiri-chord list combos off on 4 virtually never. Combos off by 5 35% of the time, and 6 65% of the time.
A couple notes from the fishing:
Obvious: Nahiri-chord is less susceptible to disruption, and has a better long-term/grindy gameplan. We all know this. Evo-Chord can find bullets better. This experiment is not about that, because neither list plays a boatload of bullets main.
Non-obvious:
1.) The Nahiri-Chord list basically never kills quickly with damage. Meanwhile, Voice/Evo/3 lands is a turn 5 kill if not interacted with. A LOT of the 60% is voice/evo beats.
2.) Gavony township is an amazing hedge against mana-flood, and also leads to a number of early kills.
3.) As noted above: Maindeck, there aren't a lot of amazing things to evo into. Restos feel a lot worse without an additional 2 great cards to blink (Walls of Omens). P+K was the card I was getting ~90% of the time as a 4-drop from an evo'd voice. Presumably restos get better with avalanche riders. A little sad that if you evo into riders on 3, you can't afford the echo cost during your upkeep =(
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Breeding Pool
1 Steam Vents
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple Garden
2 Plains
2 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Raging Ravine
Creature
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Noble Hierarch
2 Wall of Roots
3 Wall of Omens
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Voice of Resurgence
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kurphix
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Restoration Angel
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Zealous Conscripts
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3 Path to Exile
1 Lightning Helix
3 Chord of Calling
Sorcery
4 Eldritch Evolution
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Lightning Helix
2 Negate
1 Choke
1 Boil
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Avalanche Riders
2 Obstinate Baloth
It's been pretty strong in playtesting. EE is just so explosive. I like Huntmaster because it allows me to avoid Dryad Arbor, which in my experience, hinders the manabase a bit. It's a strong diet-Natural Order off Voice especially. Conscripts being more easily accessible allows me to cut Exarch which is low velocity, and one I rarely cut post-board (unlike Exarch).
Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New
WGR Naya Rock
My matchups were -
Dredge 0-2
Both games I just got completely blown out, he was too fast and I had no specific main or sideboard hate for his deck besides scooze.
Eldrazi and Taxes 2-0
Both games I just out valued him, pontiff was unexpectedly a very big player in both matches.
Infect 2-0
Just blocked all his creatures game 1 and comboed out.
game 2 he didn't draw enough gas and I had a ton of removal and blockers.
Jeskai Control With Gifts 2-1
This one was interesting, my strategy was to just steadily apply pressure the whole game but not over commit always keeping back creatures in my hand in case of a board wipe. Game 1 I was able to out value and pace him. Game 2 he got an Iona on the field by turn 5 and named white, I tried to combo out as a last ditch effort, with one card in his hand and it was path. Game 3 I kept a hand mulliganing to 6 with 2 restos and I believe it had a birds in it, and a P and K on top. It seemed a bit risky but I decided to keep it because his only card that can remove resto once it hits is path, and I figured having all of that value was enough to apply lot's of pressure and put him on a fast clock and it worked.
Overall I'm really happy with the results.
I also changed my mainboard a little, taking out a noble hierarch for a wall of roots, and a kitchen finks for a Eidolon of Rhetoric.
Now about nahiri and eldritch evolution, I agree that evolution probably pushes Nahiri out of the deck, and honestly unless you are running the Nahiri Emrakul version I kinda am starting to feel like Nahiri under preforms a lot. I'm considering cutting them from my list because every game I play with them it just feels like they don't really do anything. Now they are better in midrange matchups but honestly I find myself boarding them out more often then not, maybe it would be an interesting choice to put some in the sideboard.
A turn 3 scooze activation comes off of any of the following: Scooze in hand (best), Chord + Wall of Roots (2nd best). Bird, 2 or 3, chord in opening hand also gets you scooze, but it's a turn 4 activation, which is marginally keepable. Don't keep anything worse - you can literally beat the entire dredge deck with 1 scavenging ooze.
WGR Naya Rock
It's also why I like 1 Relic of Progenitus in the side. It's good against general tombstone shenanigans, plus it's solid against Snapcaster decks.
Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New
Matches:
2-0 Abzan
Game 1: I stabilized at 8 life against his ground creature but he still had six spirits on board and I only had an angel. Left significant mana open each turn so I guess he was afraid of being blown out. Won after I finally drew chord and fetched pia and kiran, which shut the door as he was hellbent.
Sideboard: +1 relic of progenitus, +1 kitchen finks, +1 pontiff of orzhov
Game 2: He starts off with two inquisitions and a thoughtseize followed by a painful truths for three and I thought the game was over. Several wall of omens and an resto angel later, I found myself in a dominant position even after he killed the angel. Soon I drew Kiki-jiki and he was not able to answer the Kiki+Wall of Omens combo.
1-2 Jund
Game 1: Mulligan to five and he has inquisition into a Liliana that I am not able to answer and I lose.
Sideboard: +1 kitchen finks, +1 obstinate baloth, +1 relic of progenitus
Game 2: He gets a little color screwed in the beginning and makes a misplace as he forgets that wall of roots can activate once per turn, allowing me to blow him out with a pia and kiran thopter sacrifice.
Game 3: Honestly I lost because he got three activations of bob before I drew a path. He has a stream of removal and I lose to the early card advantage.
1-1 Grixis Delver
Game 1: He serum visions turn 1, putting both cards on the bottom, and plays two delvers turn 2 that blind flip turn 3. My hand can't mount a flying defense as he has disruption for a angels and burn.
Sideboard: +1 kitchen finks, +1 pontiff, +1 obstinate baloth, +1 relic of progenitus, +1 scavenging ooze, +1 worship
Game 2: I have a fast hand of wall of roots into either angel or pi and kiran. He terminates the wall turn 2 and taps out to play a snapcaster+serum visions turn 3. Seeing this as my only chance to jam worship and knowing grixis has a hell of a time removing enchantments, I slam it despite having no creatures. Well, it ends up working out as 40 minutes later he mills himself out, unable to clear my board, and the round time limit is up.
Bant Eldrazi:
Game 1: Great hand of paths, voices and wall of omens as I was expecting infect. Either way, it works out as I draw needed lands and angel, giving me the upper hand in card advantage.
Sideboard: +1 worship, +1 kitchen finks, +1 fulminator, + slaughter games (this was a massive mistake as I was tired at this point)
Game 2: He has a turn 2 thought-knot seer (taking worship) followed by turn 5 and 6 reality smashers
Game 3: I build up a large board presence and he doesn't draw smasher but does play worship. Luckily I left in a qasali pridemage just for such shenanigans.
Lessons learned:
1. People are terrible at remembering that wall of roots produces mana, especially if it has been tapped out to cast a chord.
2. Bob is a beating and needs to be removed asap.
3. Worship is a hell of a card against unsuspecting opponents
4. Reality smasher is hard for our deck to deal with as we can't just chump and path is a two-for-one in the opponent's favor.
I think grixis delver felt like a poor matchup, bant eldrazi completed depended on whether or not they had the turn 4 accelerated reality smasher, abzan was favorable, and jund was favorable.
Kiki Chord
Mono Blue Tron
EDH:
Brago ETB
Grenzo Cruel Warden
The Legendary Captain Sisay (partially dismantled)
Im thinking in buy this deck for my local competitive events, but before i want ask to the experts (you) if Voice is so necesary? i want test the blue version (with elenndra), but i dont have other deck who need voice.
TY!
Death and taxes
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Voice punishes them more and Grand abolisher does the job better at a lower cmc.
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
It's Chord.
Tested this when people were arguing about it 3 pages ago, don't think it's chord. Instant speed is too important against too many decks. Against tap-out decks, it's important to do stuff when they can't answer it. Against instant-speed decks, it's important to be able to interact on the stack. Unlike other combo decks, our combo is suuuper easy to interact with. I'm sort of of the opinion that EE isn't quite good enough to make this deck, but I tend to play a slower, jund-ier game than the Ludas of the world.
Be happy to hear your feelings about what matchups you think Nahiri/EE has that are advantageous over Nahiri/Chord and EE/Chord, though. Welcome to the forums, and I love your name. =)
I honestly think running less than four is a mistake. Voice is like the 2nd or 3rd best card in your deck in every single matchup, and the best card in your deck in a number of matchups. And this is in a deck that isn't running EE. In an EE-heavy deck, it's baffling to me why you wouldn't want to run one of your best things to sacrifice.
WGR Naya Rock
https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/comments/4ubxfp/top_8_pptq_with_kiki_evolution/?ref=share&ref_source=link
my tournament report
Match 1: Esper Stuff
1-2
Game 1: I grind him out of resources with voices and turning a finks into a kiki.
Game 2: He lands Sun Titan to start buying back ghost quarters, then starts the ghost quarter parade.
Game 3: Sun Titan buying back a LotV brutal, then elesh norn hardcast. really brutal.
Boggles: 2-0
Game 1: keep a hand with 2 lands bird and spellskite. I know this guy plays boggles so easy keep. find finks and 2 evolutions combo pretty quick.
Game 2: Mull to 6 keep 2 lands spellskite. (having 2 after board) it winds up being not necessary. since he goes all in on a spirit dancer that I path. I play spellskite he plays a boggle and paths skite and enchants. He plays a bunch of auras. I draw explosives and it's basically gg from there.
Jund: 2-0
Game 1: I have all the 2 for 1s. 1 voice, 2 finks, bird, 3 lands. I play bird, not bolted, draw Evo off the top, Evo bird into magus, gg.
Game 2: I land thrun and turn a voice into Sigarda.
Evo is good, not enough 3 drops to get into 5 drops. and not enough sweet 4 drops for my 2 drops. it felt like.
Probably not, as voice is 2 and Sigarda 5.
WGR Naya Rock
Glad to see others doing well with it.
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
Results:
The evo-chord list combos off on 4 about 15% of the time. Combos off or kills by 5 60% of the time. Combos off or kills by 6 80% of the time.
The nahiri-chord list combos off on 4 virtually never. Combos off by 5 35% of the time, and 6 65% of the time.
A couple notes from the fishing:
Obvious: Nahiri-chord is less susceptible to disruption, and has a better long-term/grindy gameplan. We all know this. Evo-Chord can find bullets better. This experiment is not about that, because neither list plays a boatload of bullets main.
Non-obvious:
1.) The Nahiri-Chord list basically never kills quickly with damage. Meanwhile, Voice/Evo/3 lands is a turn 5 kill if not interacted with. A LOT of the 60% is voice/evo beats.
2.) Gavony township is an amazing hedge against mana-flood, and also leads to a number of early kills.
3.) As noted above: Maindeck, there aren't a lot of amazing things to evo into. Restos feel a lot worse without an additional 2 great cards to blink (Walls of Omens). P+K was the card I was getting ~90% of the time as a 4-drop from an evo'd voice. Presumably restos get better with avalanche riders. A little sad that if you evo into riders on 3, you can't afford the echo cost during your upkeep =(
Figured I'd pass this along.
WGR Naya Rock