I really like dropping Lynx for Narnam which asks whether this deck should go Jund. If we do that though we lose some of our best SB cards. What would be the replacements of RIP, Stony, and Unlife?
I really like dropping Lynx for Narnam which asks whether this deck should go Jund. If we do that though we lose some of our best SB cards. What would be the replacements of RIP, Stony, and Unlife?
i dont think we were playing rest in peace
stony silence its the biggest loss, theres ancient grudge wich its not the same but also very good
path its easy replacable with fatal push or dismember
not everybody was playing unlife, i never did and never had problems against burn, but i always had battle rage plus become immense or death shadow
nacatl its also something to not replace white entirely, but playing with basic lands its refreshing
Here's what I'm thinking for a Jund list. Not really sure about the sideboard. Especially Blossoming Defense would it be better to play Vines of Vastwood or Apostle's Blessing? Any other options I'm missing here? SBing for this deck has always been the hardest part for me.
Here's what I'm thinking for a Jund list. Not really sure about the sideboard. Especially Blossoming Defense would it be better to play Vines of Vastwood or Apostle's Blessing? Any other options I'm missing here? SBing for this deck has always been the hardest part for me.
The Jund version is still pretty good. When I was testing it a while back it was about a turn slower than the 4c. Now with probe gone it's probably about the same. Battle Rage in the Jund version doesn't act as much as a finished but a high damage burn spell. Seeing that with delirium you most likely aren't running many copies if any of BI, the likely hood of you combo-ing off isn't as high.
The reality of what we have to come up with is that the deck has been slowed a turn. Once we accept that we can find a replacement card. I think Manamorphose serves to be the best free cantrip we can use. It doesn't lose life and limits combat tricks ( due to mana being used during that phase) but it does dig us deeper into the deck and is essentially free.
I can see a deck doing a split and going 2 surgical and 2 manamorphose for the probe or some combination.
I still need to test it out some more to be sure what is more valuable, the card, the information or the life loss.
So this is the deck I'll start testing. The idea is to increse the treat density with more creatures, closer to a traditional zoo, and hopefully be able to deal with the increase in removal after Fatal Push is legal.
PS: Only 3 Baubles as I'm still lacking the 4th one, and I'll avoid investing into cards for this deck until I'm sure it's still a viable option, not that optimistic, to be honest the tought of selling the deck has crossed my mind, but I'll keep trying as I love this crazy deck.
TBH most of the core is pretty cheap. The valuable cards in this deck are also useful in other decks (the exception of course being Death's Shadow).
I'm personally leaning more toward heavy disruption B control with Tombstalker as the primary delve beater. Really dig the 8 1cmc discard spells in the jund version above. Good replacement for when BI gets cut. He doesn't play very nice with Goyf though, of which I plan to play a full set.
I tooled around with rampager in the original list and im not a big fan. Costing 2 to bloodrush means with tbr we need 4 mana to go off, which is a lot. I like the idea of bloodrush guys but I would lean towards rubblebelt maaka and slaughterhorn for the mana efficiency.
This is what im currently running. The surgicals and tainted strike keep the deck feeling very fast and consistently t2-4. Fatal push has done very well so far. Renegade and liberator have performed very well, I used to play gnarlwood dryad and grim flayer and I missed the deathtouch when I switched to steppe lynx. Renegade definitely is more consistent and powerful when blocked than lynx.
This is what im currently running. The surgicals and tainted strike keep the deck feeling very fast and consistently t2-4. Fatal push has done very well so far. Renegade and liberator have performed very well, I used to play gnarlwood dryad and grim flayer and I missed the deathtouch when I switched to steppe lynx. Renegade definitely is more consistent and powerful when blocked than lynx.
Ooooh Tainted Strike, Why didn't I think of that. It's like an extra Double Strike. Problem is you have to use it when you know there's 10 damage.
This is what im currently running. The surgicals and tainted strike keep the deck feeling very fast and consistently t2-4. Fatal push has done very well so far. Renegade and liberator have performed very well, I used to play gnarlwood dryad and grim flayer and I missed the deathtouch when I switched to steppe lynx. Renegade definitely is more consistent and powerful when blocked than lynx.
Ooooh Tainted Strike, Why didn't I think of that. It's like an extra Double Strike. Problem is you have to use it when you know there's 10 damage.
Usually yes, but having 3 in the deck adds the opportunity of drawing into a second one to finish the job. One could add a phyrexian crusader to the sb to help the infect out too.
I'm personally not fond of playing any copies of Tainted Strike. Hitting for anything less than 10 is pointless, and splitting resources between dealing damage and dealing poison is inefficient. In that case, I'd just be playing a worse version of infect.
I've been playtesting against Jund under the current bannings and the deck doesn't feel too vastly different without Probe (at last check, replaced with 2 Surgical, 1 Dismember, 1 Apostle's Blessing). Granted Jund is an OK matchup for us anyway, just thought I'd point that out.
Something else to note: i've read whispers of Tron regaining its position in this new meta, which makes me want to keep White for Path in the SB. Facing down wurmcoils is completely demoralizing imo.
I'm personally not fond of playing any copies of Tainted Strike. Hitting for anything less than 10 is pointless, and splitting resources between dealing damage and dealing poison is inefficient. In that case, I'd just be playing a worse version of infect.
I've been playtesting against Jund under the current bannings and the deck doesn't feel too vastly different without Probe (at last check, replaced with 2 Surgical, 1 Dismember, 1 Apostle's Blessing). Granted Jund is an OK matchup for us anyway, just thought I'd point that out.
Something else to note: i've read whispers of Tron regaining its position in this new meta, which makes me want to keep White for Path in the SB. Facing down wurmcoils is completely demoralizing imo.
While there are hands where the ts can get in the way they are rare. On the whole ive been testing it for a few months even pre-ban and it has worked very well for me. I like the deck being potentially a full turn faster, and winning me some matches at my last gpt that I would have lost if it had been a tbr instead. (went undefeated in swiss, lost to bant eldrazi in the top8)at the cost of some small % of games that fou would likely mulligan anyways. That said I understand that it's not for everyone.
Tron has been in the t1 again for about a month now. That definitely puts paths in the board. Honestly though tron is usually a 'go faster' scenario anyways. If they get their mana online we likely lose. We don't have an answer for ugin
Sorry about the loss, that's an impossible MU. Good work on Top8!
I've admittedly not been going to FNM regularly so it's tough to keep up with what decks are doing well / general water cooler talk.
I'm curious to see your decklist. I might have different feelings toward Tainted Strike if the deck supports it well. I mean, can you target anything other than Shadow to any meaningful effect?
This is my current postban list. Before I was running the stock list with steppe lynx minus 2 bolts and 1 TBR and adding the 3 TS.
Tainted strike works with any creature that has at least 3 power, and become immense. 3 from the creature, 1 from ts, and 6 from BI. So that includes wild nacatl, death's shadow, steppe lynx(with a fetch), and monastery swiftspear. It also works with any 4+ power creature and TBR, which admittedly is only death's shadow, greenwheel liberator, and swiftspear if you have an extra prowess trigger. This can be expanded to any creature if you have a mutagenic growth.
The point remains that anything short of 10 can be a major letdown. I have had some games where I used more than one ts to get to the 10 though. Also in a pinch you can use it for the prowess trigger by targeting an opponent's creature. Or semi-fog an attack the same way.
mtggoldfish is a good way to keep up with the metagame. It won't reflect your local meta but it's good to know for online/larger events.
so in the last 2 league results updates the new version of shadow zoo with traverse the ulvenwald put up 2 more 5-0s, i think that makes a total of 3 5-0s without probes
that could be the new direction to keep this deck competitive
talking about surgical extraction, its not a replacement for gitaxian probe, mishras bauble and street wraith are actual replacements but we are already playing them. surgical extraction is graveyard hate, you are basicaly throwing a card at the graveyard for free instead of paying one mana and not loosing a card by playing more copies of thoughtseize
manamorphose or dismember are also decent cards to play before surgical
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i dont think we were playing rest in peace
stony silence its the biggest loss, theres ancient grudge wich its not the same but also very good
path its easy replacable with fatal push or dismember
not everybody was playing unlife, i never did and never had problems against burn, but i always had battle rage plus become immense or death shadow
nacatl its also something to not replace white entirely, but playing with basic lands its refreshing
4 Death's Shadow
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Narnam Renegade
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Street Wraith
Artifacts
4 Mishra's Bauble
Sorceries
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
Instants
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Temur Battle Rage
2 Become Immense
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Hooting Mandrils
1 Gragdigger's Cage
1 Pyroclasm
2 Blossoming Defense
2 Natural State
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Dismember
So Jund lists basically have to drop Nacatl. And the 4 color lists also get to play Path to Exile in the SB (which may matter less with Fatal Push).
If you are not running any plains, wouldn't it be better to replace the Wild Nactl for Goblin Guide or even Kird Ape?
Oh yeah. Duh. Never mind.
Would Grim Flayer or main decking Hooting Mandrils be better?
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Breeding Pool
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Stomping Ground
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
2x Tribal Flames
4x Death's Shadow
3x Hooting Mandrills
3x Monastery Swiftspear
2x Narnam Renegade
4x Street Wraith
4x Wild Nacatl
3x Might of Alara
4x Mutagenic Growth
4x Temur Battle Rage
4x Mishra's Bauble
1x Boros Charm
2x Deflecting Palm
1x Dismember
1x Forest
2x Lingering Souls
1x Natural State
2x Pyroclasm
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Vines of Vastwood
This allows Hooting Mandrils to be played mainboard easier, without the BIs, to help against Fatal Push or such.
Really want to play the Narnam Renegade but not sure if it would be better being more hand control and the other swiftspear.
What do you think?
BWTokens
GCollected Stompany
BWGUSeance Insanity
URUR Bloo
The reality of what we have to come up with is that the deck has been slowed a turn. Once we accept that we can find a replacement card. I think Manamorphose serves to be the best free cantrip we can use. It doesn't lose life and limits combat tricks ( due to mana being used during that phase) but it does dig us deeper into the deck and is essentially free.
I can see a deck doing a split and going 2 surgical and 2 manamorphose for the probe or some combination.
I still need to test it out some more to be sure what is more valuable, the card, the information or the life loss.
1x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Godless Shrine
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Stomping Ground
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
Sorcery (3)
3x Thoughtseize
Enchantment (1)
1x Rancor
Artifact (3)
3x Mishra's Bauble
4x Death's Shadow
1x Ghor-Clan Rampager
2x Grim Flayer
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Narnam Renegade
4x Street Wraith
4x Wild Nacatl
Instant (13)
2x Become Immense
1x Dismember
4x Mutagenic Growth
2x Tarfire
4x Temur Battle Rage
2x Blossoming Defense
2x Hooting Mandrills
2x Natural State
2x Path to Exile
2x Pyroclasm
1x Spellskite
2x Stony Silence
1x Traverse the Ulvenwald
1x Forest
So this is the deck I'll start testing. The idea is to increse the treat density with more creatures, closer to a traditional zoo, and hopefully be able to deal with the increase in removal after Fatal Push is legal.
PS: Only 3 Baubles as I'm still lacking the 4th one, and I'll avoid investing into cards for this deck until I'm sure it's still a viable option, not that optimistic, to be honest the tought of selling the deck has crossed my mind, but I'll keep trying as I love this crazy deck.
I'm personally leaning more toward heavy disruption B control with Tombstalker as the primary delve beater. Really dig the 8 1cmc discard spells in the jund version above. Good replacement for when BI gets cut. He doesn't play very nice with Goyf though, of which I plan to play a full set.
This is what im currently running. The surgicals and tainted strike keep the deck feeling very fast and consistently t2-4. Fatal push has done very well so far. Renegade and liberator have performed very well, I used to play gnarlwood dryad and grim flayer and I missed the deathtouch when I switched to steppe lynx. Renegade definitely is more consistent and powerful when blocked than lynx.
Ooooh Tainted Strike, Why didn't I think of that. It's like an extra Double Strike. Problem is you have to use it when you know there's 10 damage.
Usually yes, but having 3 in the deck adds the opportunity of drawing into a second one to finish the job. One could add a phyrexian crusader to the sb to help the infect out too.
I've been playtesting against Jund under the current bannings and the deck doesn't feel too vastly different without Probe (at last check, replaced with 2 Surgical, 1 Dismember, 1 Apostle's Blessing). Granted Jund is an OK matchup for us anyway, just thought I'd point that out.
Something else to note: i've read whispers of Tron regaining its position in this new meta, which makes me want to keep White for Path in the SB. Facing down wurmcoils is completely demoralizing imo.
While there are hands where the ts can get in the way they are rare. On the whole ive been testing it for a few months even pre-ban and it has worked very well for me. I like the deck being potentially a full turn faster, and winning me some matches at my last gpt that I would have lost if it had been a tbr instead. (went undefeated in swiss, lost to bant eldrazi in the top8)at the cost of some small % of games that fou would likely mulligan anyways. That said I understand that it's not for everyone.
Tron has been in the t1 again for about a month now. That definitely puts paths in the board. Honestly though tron is usually a 'go faster' scenario anyways. If they get their mana online we likely lose. We don't have an answer for ugin
I've admittedly not been going to FNM regularly so it's tough to keep up with what decks are doing well / general water cooler talk.
I'm curious to see your decklist. I might have different feelings toward Tainted Strike if the deck supports it well. I mean, can you target anything other than Shadow to any meaningful effect?
Tainted strike works with any creature that has at least 3 power, and become immense. 3 from the creature, 1 from ts, and 6 from BI. So that includes wild nacatl, death's shadow, steppe lynx(with a fetch), and monastery swiftspear. It also works with any 4+ power creature and TBR, which admittedly is only death's shadow, greenwheel liberator, and swiftspear if you have an extra prowess trigger. This can be expanded to any creature if you have a mutagenic growth.
The point remains that anything short of 10 can be a major letdown. I have had some games where I used more than one ts to get to the 10 though. Also in a pinch you can use it for the prowess trigger by targeting an opponent's creature. Or semi-fog an attack the same way.
mtggoldfish is a good way to keep up with the metagame. It won't reflect your local meta but it's good to know for online/larger events.
that could be the new direction to keep this deck competitive
talking about surgical extraction, its not a replacement for gitaxian probe, mishras bauble and street wraith are actual replacements but we are already playing them. surgical extraction is graveyard hate, you are basicaly throwing a card at the graveyard for free instead of paying one mana and not loosing a card by playing more copies of thoughtseize
manamorphose or dismember are also decent cards to play before surgical