Dont knock it untill you try it. The trigger resolves most of the time, and you would be surprised how many people want to counter sin collectors and tidehollows as they wreck their day. When they do that, its basically the same as it resolving as you got a card out of their hand, which both decks aim to do. The amount of disruption the deck has and the specific creature suite make anything in the deck a threat, and anyone who has played against me agrees and Hayes my deck because of how literally anything and everything is a threat even things like sculler. The mana dorks are not where you want to be. There is a reason Wilson lost on the top 8, and its because he doesnt have enough disruption, making him terrible against combo. However, this list has an insane combo matchup. Every control amd creature deck is a bye, and combo is favorable. I only have lost to combos nut draw (them drawing then only out they had with one turn left) Qasalis can be gotten rid of to easily which makes it worse then disruption. Sculler can be bolted etc, but not if you take their disruption spell against combo and other linear decks, take the impact spell and reap the benefits.
Everyone else has less disruption then I do due to the mana dorks package. This makes it favorable as we can disrupt them way easier and it makes is favorable. They also play fewer lieges for some reason, and the match comes down to who can get the liege first. I run more lieges then them and my board post board deals with them well. The dork disruption makes you worse against removal. (Seriously I played pod long enough that bolting the birds is a concept that still holds true now it wrecks your hand if birds die). You also with more birds are less threat dense then me, so I have more you must deal with.
Hi everyone! I am the creator of the deck and just saw there was a forum here.
I played pod for two years. The day pod got banned, I called up my buddy who is the best player I know, and he said one sentence that would change my MTG life; "Wilt leaf liege pumps siege rhino..."
When that sentence was said, we got to work and spent days tweaking and tuning the list and we found out it was the real deal!! We both posted our own ways to get the deck publicised (mine was a reddit post his was an article on the deck), and the people who tested it loved it but some were skeptical. Jacob Wilson then top 8ed a pro tour, and the deck jumped in value.
I remember seeing your post on reddit a week or two before the PT because I remember that exact line. Your thread is what led me to messing around with Liege and Siege Rhino in the first place, so kudos I guess.
That said, I think the list you arrived at and the list Pardee/Wilson/Kibler arrived are very different decks. Personally, I prefer the Wilson version. The deck always felt like it was missing something and Lingering Souls is that something. Souls is the nuts right now and I think it is absolutely a mistake not to be running it. Games against Abzan decks often come down to a few important things: namely who gets out Souls first, whose Souls are bigger, who gets Rhino, who gets Gavony online? The Wilson list is set up so that it has a few advntages: dorks can ramp into Gavony and become threats with a few activations and we get "extra" Gavonies in the form of Wilt-Leaf Liege. Which brings us to the mana dorks. You've got 10 3-drop creatures in your deck. As an aggro deck, it's important to play to the board to get the opponent dead quickly, and since we're a bigger aggro deck, we also want to get our best threats online more quickly. Throwing out a Finks or Souls Turn 2 is a pretty great opening. But you're also neglecting that the dorks lead to Turn 3 Rhino. T3 Rhino is the absolute nuts and definitely the best thing the deck is capable of. Putting it all together, I think for sure it's worth running 6-8 dorks to make that happen.
I don't think Wilson's list is perfect; I think not having Abrupt Decay in the main deck at LEAST as a 2-of is a mistake. So, I completely understand wanting more disruption like you did. I just think that by not including dorks and other things, you are diluting the aggressive nature of the deck that makes it play so smoothly. Sin Collector seems like a pretty weak maindeck inclusion compared to our other awesome 3-drops. Skuller actually seems pretty good! I just think I would usually rather have a Pridemage or Scavenging Ooze. I'm not sure. They're all pretty nice value bears, but Exalted on Pridemage as well as being GW for Liege and incidental Affinity and Twin hate gives him an edge for me.
So I guess my question to you is this: You're obviously playing a much more disruptive game than the Wilson list. With that in mind, why would I not just play classic Abzan?
For one thing, its impossible to find an edge in an abzan mirror. However, with this deck, GBx is literally a bye. Having a bye against 20 percent of the field is a plus.
This deck takes the nonsense topdecks out of GBx. This is so threat dense everything but thoughtseizes are a threat. This makes the deck way harder to beat. Everyone who has faced me is a fan of the deck and think its amazing because they have to deal with everything while disrupting the plan they have.
In addition,instead of a 50-50 matchup against everything, I have a favorable matchup due to the consistemt pressure. People also misboard instead of a set plan against GBx.
Thrun was cut long ago, because it doesn't beat Siege Rhino. Choke was cut because every blue deck besides Scapeshift plays tons of non-Island blue-producing nonbasics. I'd like another Sorin or Ajani if it fits easily. The 4th Kitchen Finks was added to the SB for grinding out midrange decks' removal and guaranteeing success vs the popular aggro decks. Since I tap out most turns, Scavenging Ooze was cut.
Im not a fan of the sideboard. There isnt enough ways to get the one ofs and you need them. You are an aggro deck and the walkers make you tap out instead of threat a turn. In addition, if it comes down to topdeck mode, a threat is where you want to be. Mindsencor is to easily played around and got a lot worse in the new meta as not a lot of tron as it dies to combo, scapeshift is terribly positioned so it shouldn't be a big deal, and its not a threat on its own and it might get them on one fetchland, but often the opponent can easily get rid of it. There is no more pod to punish. Torpor orb is boarded in against us as it screws you up because of rhinos finks etc. Stony silence is to narrow of a hate card to me. My board has been insane against affinity and it has versatile hosed cards that hose multiple decks. I would play multiples of versatile cards or multiples of a specific hate card if you hate the matchup like if you hate burn (I have been killing burn have not lost a match) then add more then one kor You want to see your hate cards and one ofs dont do it. The only choice I somewhat agree with is thought seize in the main but I value them main as it gives serious game against other aggro to disrupt them, combo, and control it has proven valuable enough to me after playing angel pod for a long time. I do know Melira pod did it, but I always disagreed.
So, I played my list posted last page tonight at FNM. Lot's of kids play so not much in the way of real decks except one, Abzan with goyfs. I'll be honest, I did nearly everything I could and I lost hard to him I siezed him and he had enough threats and path didn't do enough ether. Any ideas?
For sure man! I am not a pro player, but I have been playing modern for years and know a ton on the format. It was more so my buddy and I created the archetype and publicised it w ayy before the pro tour then people picked it up post pro tour.
Isn't mindcensor in these lists almost exclusively for bloom titan?
I have found the matchup (at least in my list) in our favor.Also, a one of wont do anything without a way to tutor it or Gods luck.
I know what you mean that you will rarely draw one. However, from a purely statistical perspective, you are still marginally improving your win percentage.
In fact, we know side boarding up to 4 cards can be worse because there are diminishing returns to hate cards, i.e., drawing multiples is often very bad because they are redundant. It's the first copy that statistically has the most impact.
Another thing to keep in mind with side boarding decisions is that increasing your win percentage by 1% has the greatest impact on your match win percentage when your per game win percentage is around 50%. That is, if you can choose between increasing your win percentage by an identical amount in a horrible, mediocre, or great matchup, it is best to do so in the mediocre matchup.
if your going to play a card like that, a two of is where its at. That way its hard to get multiples but easier to get one. It also improves your matchup percentage more then 1 measly percent
Played this deck in a little tournament today, went 3-0.
1) UR Twin 2-0
I knew that guy and that he is playing twin. So, I hold out for abrupt in the first game. He got mana screwed, and I developed a board in game 1, but he somehow stalls the game, but I succesfully countered all his efforts to play twin. Game two he sided out all of his twin, but my beatdown plan is better.
SB IN:2x Duress OUT:1x Path to Exile 1xMana Dork
2) Jund 2-1
So, our deck is hunts on this type of deck. Game one I removed all of his threats and he couldn't remove my threat.
Game two I got mana screwed.
Game three same scenario as game one, easy for me again.
I did not use sideboard in this game.
3) Gr Tron 2-0
Game one he assembled his tron way too late(at 6 hp) and I got Path to Exile for his Wurmcoil Engine.
Game two I got Karn'd on turn 4, but I had my threats on board, so I killed his Karn and I got Path to Exile for his next Wurmcoil Engine.
Have any of you played 3 Engineered Explosives in the SB? I'm thinking about adding a third one because it did work against some the decks where it was needed.
I do. It is insane. I highly suggest it. It makes decks that would be in your favor a near bye. Also, I reccomend if your into the playstyle with the explosives, I would look at my current decklist as it does insane work for me due to its consistent amount of heavy disruption and always having a threat.
I never use Slaughter Pact, so I am going to change it to another stony silence. Been playing the deck on Xmage and haven't lost yet, but haven't played any tier 1 decks so far. Played UWR twin, Dega Midrange, UWR control and 8 rack (must have been the most frustrating deck ever for him to play against).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks
Modern
No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
So, I played my list posted last page tonight at FNM. Lot's of kids play so not much in the way of real decks except one, Abzan with goyfs. I'll be honest, I did nearly everything I could and I lost hard to him I siezed him and he had enough threats and path didn't do enough ether. Any ideas?
That matchup is heavily favored so I guess you will have to explain went wrong. I like Zealous Persecution against that deck because it helps you win the souls war. Other than that we have great topdecks against them.
Went to a modern tourney today and went 4-2. Here's the matchups:
Round 1 against Abzan Midrange (Lilis and Goyfs). 2-0
Round 2 against B/W Tokens. 0-2
Round 3 against BUG Infect. 2-0
Round 4 against UWR Control. 0-2
Round 5 against Mono Green Elves. 2-1
Round 6 against B/R Midrange. 2-0
I wouldn't change anything MD but I might want to add Thrun or other good cards against UWR control in the Sideboard since 5 people were playing it out of 24. Thoughtseize, Duress, Decay, Zealous Persecution and Engineered Explosives did work and I wouldn't cut them.
If you have any questions about the match ups, feel free to ask!
Can you talk about the control matchup? Between Voice and our un-boltable threats it seems somewhat favorable.
BW tokens seems pretty rough but both times I played against it I just always had the Decay for the anthems, so I don't know how it usually goes.
I never use Slaughter Pact, so I am going to change it to another stony silence. Been playing the deck on Xmage and haven't lost yet, but haven't played any tier 1 decks so far. Played UWR twin, Dega Midrange, UWR control and 8 rack (must have been the most frustrating deck ever for him to play against).
Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I only count 56 main decked cards with 19 lands. I might have just screwed up my math, or you might be off. Can you comment?
After some brief testing against UWR Control and UW Control, I feel that the control matchup is not in our favor. Any suggestions for some decent cards against control? I've added a Thrun in the sideboard and I'm also thinking about something like Sword of War and Peace because once it resolves and you are able to equip on one of your creatures, it's pretty much GG then. Other than Thrun, SoWaP and card disruption like Duress and Thoughtseize, what other viable options are there?
I'm pretty surprised by this finding. Loxodon smiter is uncounterable, kitchen finks and voice of resurgence both survive wrath effects, lingering souls is good vs. both counterspells AND wrath effects, and you've got a lot of threats overall. I feel like this deck should have the upper hand unless the game goes long, and even then it should be favored. Playing against a good control player is tricky, though... you have to be careful not to overextend into a wrath and you have to either bait or overwhelm their counterspells. I feel like the version being touted by emracool with fewer or no mana dorks would have an even better control matchup, especially if you add a couple man-lands.
I remember seeing your post on reddit a week or two before the PT because I remember that exact line. Your thread is what led me to messing around with Liege and Siege Rhino in the first place, so kudos I guess.
That said, I think the list you arrived at and the list Pardee/Wilson/Kibler arrived are very different decks. Personally, I prefer the Wilson version. The deck always felt like it was missing something and Lingering Souls is that something. Souls is the nuts right now and I think it is absolutely a mistake not to be running it. Games against Abzan decks often come down to a few important things: namely who gets out Souls first, whose Souls are bigger, who gets Rhino, who gets Gavony online? The Wilson list is set up so that it has a few advntages: dorks can ramp into Gavony and become threats with a few activations and we get "extra" Gavonies in the form of Wilt-Leaf Liege. Which brings us to the mana dorks. You've got 10 3-drop creatures in your deck. As an aggro deck, it's important to play to the board to get the opponent dead quickly, and since we're a bigger aggro deck, we also want to get our best threats online more quickly. Throwing out a Finks or Souls Turn 2 is a pretty great opening. But you're also neglecting that the dorks lead to Turn 3 Rhino. T3 Rhino is the absolute nuts and definitely the best thing the deck is capable of. Putting it all together, I think for sure it's worth running 6-8 dorks to make that happen.
I don't think Wilson's list is perfect; I think not having Abrupt Decay in the main deck at LEAST as a 2-of is a mistake. So, I completely understand wanting more disruption like you did. I just think that by not including dorks and other things, you are diluting the aggressive nature of the deck that makes it play so smoothly. Sin Collector seems like a pretty weak maindeck inclusion compared to our other awesome 3-drops. Skuller actually seems pretty good! I just think I would usually rather have a Pridemage or Scavenging Ooze. I'm not sure. They're all pretty nice value bears, but Exalted on Pridemage as well as being GW for Liege and incidental Affinity and Twin hate gives him an edge for me.
So I guess my question to you is this: You're obviously playing a much more disruptive game than the Wilson list. With that in mind, why would I not just play classic Abzan?
This deck takes the nonsense topdecks out of GBx. This is so threat dense everything but thoughtseizes are a threat. This makes the deck way harder to beat. Everyone who has faced me is a fan of the deck and think its amazing because they have to deal with everything while disrupting the plan they have.
In addition,instead of a 50-50 matchup against everything, I have a favorable matchup due to the consistemt pressure. People also misboard instead of a set plan against GBx.
I'm sticking with the Pro Tour maindeck, -2 Thoughtseize, -2 Birds of Paradise, +1 Loxodon Smiter (meta choice), +3 Abrupt Decay.
My sideboard has been evolving a lot. Here's where it stands right now:
2 Stony Silence - Affinity, Tron
2 Torpor Orb - Twin, some UWR decks
2 Aven Mindcensor - Tron, Scapeshift, most true combo decks
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor - when racing (tempo, aggro, damage-based combo)
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes - midrange and control decks
4 Thoughtseize - combo
1 Kitchen Finks - aggro and midrange
1 Engineered Explosives - Bogles, Infect, Affinity?, Twin
1 Kor Firewalker - Burn
Thrun was cut long ago, because it doesn't beat Siege Rhino. Choke was cut because every blue deck besides Scapeshift plays tons of non-Island blue-producing nonbasics. I'd like another Sorin or Ajani if it fits easily. The 4th Kitchen Finks was added to the SB for grinding out midrange decks' removal and guaranteeing success vs the popular aggro decks. Since I tap out most turns, Scavenging Ooze was cut.
Thoughts?
Legacy: Strawberry Shortcake, Aggro Loam, DnT+b
Modern: Devoted Karn
Vintage: Survival
Round 1: UR Storm. 2-0.
Round 2: Mono G Infect. 1-2.
Round 3: Mono R Burn. 2-1.
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
Gay and Proud
#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
Legacy: Maverick
I have found the matchup (at least in my list) in our favor.Also, a one of wont do anything without a way to tutor it or Gods luck.
I know what you mean that you will rarely draw one. However, from a purely statistical perspective, you are still marginally improving your win percentage.
In fact, we know side boarding up to 4 cards can be worse because there are diminishing returns to hate cards, i.e., drawing multiples is often very bad because they are redundant. It's the first copy that statistically has the most impact.
Another thing to keep in mind with side boarding decisions is that increasing your win percentage by 1% has the greatest impact on your match win percentage when your per game win percentage is around 50%. That is, if you can choose between increasing your win percentage by an identical amount in a horrible, mediocre, or great matchup, it is best to do so in the mediocre matchup.
Legacy: Maverick
1) UR Twin 2-0
I knew that guy and that he is playing twin. So, I hold out for abrupt in the first game. He got mana screwed, and I developed a board in game 1, but he somehow stalls the game, but I succesfully countered all his efforts to play twin. Game two he sided out all of his twin, but my beatdown plan is better.
SB IN:2x Duress OUT:1x Path to Exile 1xMana Dork
2) Jund 2-1
So, our deck is hunts on this type of deck. Game one I removed all of his threats and he couldn't remove my threat.
Game two I got mana screwed.
Game three same scenario as game one, easy for me again.
I did not use sideboard in this game.
3) Gr Tron 2-0
Game one he assembled his tron way too late(at 6 hp) and I got Path to Exile for his Wurmcoil Engine.
Game two I got Karn'd on turn 4, but I had my threats on board, so I killed his Karn and I got Path to Exile for his next Wurmcoil Engine.
SB IN:2x Duress, OUT:2x Abrupt decay
My deck list:
3x Forest
3x Gavony Township
1x Godless Shrine
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
3x Razorverge Thicket
2x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
Creatures: 26
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Kitchen Finks
3x Loxodon Smiter
1x Noble Hierarch
2x Avacyn's Pilgrim
1x Qasali Pridemage
3x Siege Rhino
3x Voice of Resurgence
1x Scavenging ooze
1x Restoration angel
3x Wilt-Leaf Liege
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Path to Exile
4x Lingering Souls
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Choke
2x Stony Silence
2x Fracturing Gust
2x Zealous Persecution
3x Duress
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Rule of Law
1x Kor Firewalker
Pilgrims are budget solution to Noble hierarch's problem. And I think I should addsecond Qasali pridemage instead of ooze maybe.
I do. It is insane. I highly suggest it. It makes decks that would be in your favor a near bye. Also, I reccomend if your into the playstyle with the explosives, I would look at my current decklist as it does insane work for me due to its consistent amount of heavy disruption and always having a threat.
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Siege Rhino
4 Loxodon Smiter
3 Wilt-Leaf Liege
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Voice of Resurgence
Spells
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
2 Thoughtseize
3 Lingering Souls
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Forest
2 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
3 Gavony Township
1 Ajani Mentor of Heroes
1 Celestial Purge
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Choke
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Rest in Peace
1 Rule of Law
1 Stony Silence
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Zealous Persecution
I never use Slaughter Pact, so I am going to change it to another stony silence. Been playing the deck on Xmage and haven't lost yet, but haven't played any tier 1 decks so far. Played UWR twin, Dega Midrange, UWR control and 8 rack (must have been the most frustrating deck ever for him to play against).
That matchup is heavily favored so I guess you will have to explain went wrong. I like Zealous Persecution against that deck because it helps you win the souls war. Other than that we have great topdecks against them.
Can you talk about the control matchup? Between Voice and our un-boltable threats it seems somewhat favorable.
BW tokens seems pretty rough but both times I played against it I just always had the Decay for the anthems, so I don't know how it usually goes.
Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I only count 56 main decked cards with 19 lands. I might have just screwed up my math, or you might be off. Can you comment?
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
Gay and Proud
#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
I'm pretty surprised by this finding. Loxodon smiter is uncounterable, kitchen finks and voice of resurgence both survive wrath effects, lingering souls is good vs. both counterspells AND wrath effects, and you've got a lot of threats overall. I feel like this deck should have the upper hand unless the game goes long, and even then it should be favored. Playing against a good control player is tricky, though... you have to be careful not to overextend into a wrath and you have to either bait or overwhelm their counterspells. I feel like the version being touted by emracool with fewer or no mana dorks would have an even better control matchup, especially if you add a couple man-lands.