CUT A FOREST ADD A PLAINS! It transforms the deck and the manabase feels so much smoother and more functional now. It is a permanent change in my list. That is all
The version with dorks beats twin pure and simple. Its the version I played in a PPTQ and beat 4 twin decks to only draw in with another. I actually increased my dorks from 6 to 7 and want a 4th lingering souls. I also am considering going back to 1 ooze so I can add the 2nd Dromoka's Command.
I think this deck needs to be tested against Elves and Bloom since they are becoming the big two to beat according to mtgo and real life.
has anyone had experience against Elves? It seems like we just hold our removal up for their important cards like Ezuri and Elvish Champion and we are fine. Lingering Souls gives us time to stabilize and then are creatures are just bigger.
In regards to those two matchups, that is why I like Aven Mindcensor in the SB. I'm still testing the 2 SB Ghost Quarter to bring in vs Tron/Bloom and siding out the Gavony but it's still in the testing phase.
I played my list cut a forest for a plains and it was WAY better at a local tournament I got 3rd place lost to the Ad Nauseam player who's on my team and that I knocked out at the PPTQ so it was revenge lol. I feel the mana problems are sooved with the plains the deck ran smoother and felt better.
IMO the problem with this deck isn't accidentally drawing a turn 1 green mana source. It's the problem of drawing basic+colorless, which adding more fetches should cut down on.
I played a few test games adding 2 Marsh Flats and a Wildwood and the mana felt better. But of course modo did the "give you 1 landers on 7, you keep a 4-land 2-spell hand and draw 6 more lands" sort of games. But I digress...
I might go to a modern FNM tonight. I don't own marsh flats or another wildwood IRL so I'm going to toss in 3 Bloodstained Mire (since IMO I'd rather run 3 extra lands that fetch B on t1 than G).
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Current Decks: GWB Angel Pod WBR Mardu Midrange GWB Wilted Abzan
If you went by his list, what would you cut for two fetches
Well, basic can be awkward in the starter. You almost never want to see them in the opener, but it's important to have them available to fetch. I'd cut the 2nd Forest and 2nd Plains for 2x Marsh Flats. In fact, I'd even consider cutting the 2nd Godless Shrine for a third Marsh Flats.
While Emracool's build requires a swap of forest for plains, the dork build still requires it no?
We need our forests to get out our dorks.
Yeah, with the Wilson/Kibler PT build, you want a lot of untapped green T1, so we can't afford to run Man-lands like Wildwood and need a few extra Forests.
Was going to post the manabase, but I figured I'd post the full build I have:
We are heavy GW with a B splash, so 3x Razorverge, the 2nd Temple Garden, 3 Forests, and all Green fetches are all important. Also you should be running 2-3 Gavony, as the card is so good with the Birds and Souls tokens and helps mitigate the problems of flood.
If you went by his list, what would you cut for two fetches
Well, basic can be awkward in the starter. You almost never want to see them in the opener, but it's important to have them available to fetch. I'd cut the 2nd Forest and 2nd Plains for 2x Marsh Flats. In fact, I'd even consider cutting the 2nd Godless Shrine for a third Marsh Flats.
If you're going to add a 3rd fetch in the dorkless build I'd rather cut the Township for it (if you don't want to add a 3rd Wildwood also).
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Even without accelerants, I don't think the deck wants very many tap lands. I wouldn't run more than 2x Wildwoods. I'd run a Horizon Canopy before considering that (which maybe advisable anyway). I could see cutting Township, since it isn't that great without the dorks. However, the 2nd Godless Shrine is fairly redundant. Hard to imagine ever wanting to fetch for the second one.
Even without accelerants, I don't think the deck wants very many tap lands. I wouldn't run more than 2x Wildwoods. I'd run a Horizon Canopy before considering that (which maybe advisable anyway). I could see cutting Township, since it isn't that great without the dorks. However, the 2nd Godless Shrine is fairly redundant. Hard to imagine ever wanting to fetch for the second one.
I think vault of the archangel is just better in the dorkless version than Gavony, yes you have Souls in the SB but activating a vault once usually means us winning the game.
While Emracool's build requires a swap of forest for plains, the dork build still requires it no?
We need our forests to get out our dorks.
Yeah, with the Wilson/Kibler PT build, you want a lot of untapped green T1, so we can't afford to run Man-lands like Wildwood and need a few extra Forests.
Was going to post the manabase, but I figured I'd post the full build I have:
We are heavy GW with a B splash, so 3x Razorverge, the 2nd Temple Garden, 3 Forests, and all Green fetches are all important. Also you should be running 2-3 Gavony, as the card is so good with the Birds and Souls tokens and helps mitigate the problems of flood.
As you plays 7 dorks, what do you think about only 22 lands to avoid flood?
My SB are very similar to yours, and I'll add 2 surgical extraction to use with Seize and land destruction against Tron/Amulet.
why Zealous Persecution in the SB? What matchups are we bringing it in for? I mean it stops the Twin combo but isn't worth bringing in as Decay and Path do the same thing, plus not many decks are running Lingering Souls which is where Persecution shines.
While Emracool's build requires a swap of forest for plains, the dork build still requires it no?
We need our forests to get out our dorks.
Yeah, with the Wilson/Kibler PT build, you want a lot of untapped green T1, so we can't afford to run Man-lands like Wildwood and need a few extra Forests.
Was going to post the manabase, but I figured I'd post the full build I have:
We are heavy GW with a B splash, so 3x Razorverge, the 2nd Temple Garden, 3 Forests, and all Green fetches are all important. Also you should be running 2-3 Gavony, as the card is so good with the Birds and Souls tokens and helps mitigate the problems of flood.
As you plays 7 dorks, what do you think about only 22 lands to avoid flood?
Our deck is very mana intensive. Our curve is very top heavy, with a high preponderance of 3 and 4 drops. We want to both have a high probability of having a mana accelerant turn 1 and a third land on turn 3. The only way I'd suggest cutting a land is if you were going to have a full set of both Birds and Hierarch. Gavony is the main way to make flooding less impactful. You could also consider adding 1-3 Horizon Canopy's in place of some of the Razorverge Thickets.
CUT A FOREST ADD A PLAINS! It transforms the deck and the manabase feels so much smoother and more functional now. It is a permanent change in my list. That is all
has anyone had experience against Elves? It seems like we just hold our removal up for their important cards like Ezuri and Elvish Champion and we are fine. Lingering Souls gives us time to stabilize and then are creatures are just bigger.
In regards to those two matchups, that is why I like Aven Mindcensor in the SB. I'm still testing the 2 SB Ghost Quarter to bring in vs Tron/Bloom and siding out the Gavony but it's still in the testing phase.
Streaming the dorkless build in an 8 man right now!
Will also be recording it so if you see this after dont worry
IMO the problem with this deck isn't accidentally drawing a turn 1 green mana source. It's the problem of drawing basic+colorless, which adding more fetches should cut down on.
I played a few test games adding 2 Marsh Flats and a Wildwood and the mana felt better. But of course modo did the "give you 1 landers on 7, you keep a 4-land 2-spell hand and draw 6 more lands" sort of games. But I digress...
I might go to a modern FNM tonight. I don't own marsh flats or another wildwood IRL so I'm going to toss in 3 Bloodstained Mire (since IMO I'd rather run 3 extra lands that fetch B on t1 than G).
GWB Angel PodWBR Mardu MidrangeGWB Wilted Abzan
We need our forests to get out our dorks.
GWB Angel PodWBR Mardu MidrangeGWB Wilted Abzan
If you went by his list, what would you cut for two fetches
Well, basic can be awkward in the starter. You almost never want to see them in the opener, but it's important to have them available to fetch. I'd cut the 2nd Forest and 2nd Plains for 2x Marsh Flats. In fact, I'd even consider cutting the 2nd Godless Shrine for a third Marsh Flats.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Yeah, with the Wilson/Kibler PT build, you want a lot of untapped green T1, so we can't afford to run Man-lands like Wildwood and need a few extra Forests.
Was going to post the manabase, but I figured I'd post the full build I have:
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Voice of Resurgence
1 Aven Mindcensor
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Loxodon Smiter
3 Wilt-Leaf Liege
4 Siege Rhino
Spells
3 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Lingering Souls
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Temple Garden
3 Forest
3 Gavony Township
3 Razorverge Thicket
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Thoughtseize
2 Stony Silence
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Choke
2 Timely Reinforcements
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Fracturing Gust
We are heavy GW with a B splash, so 3x Razorverge, the 2nd Temple Garden, 3 Forests, and all Green fetches are all important. Also you should be running 2-3 Gavony, as the card is so good with the Birds and Souls tokens and helps mitigate the problems of flood.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
If you're going to add a 3rd fetch in the dorkless build I'd rather cut the Township for it (if you don't want to add a 3rd Wildwood also).
GWB Angel PodWBR Mardu MidrangeGWB Wilted Abzan
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
I think vault of the archangel is just better in the dorkless version than Gavony, yes you have Souls in the SB but activating a vault once usually means us winning the game.
As you plays 7 dorks, what do you think about only 22 lands to avoid flood?
My SB are very similar to yours, and I'll add 2 surgical extraction to use with Seize and land destruction against Tron/Amulet.
run ZP over Golgari Charm if you're running Lingering Souls. if you're not, I find the flexibility of Golgari Charm pretty nice.
GWB Angel PodWBR Mardu MidrangeGWB Wilted Abzan
Our deck is very mana intensive. Our curve is very top heavy, with a high preponderance of 3 and 4 drops. We want to both have a high probability of having a mana accelerant turn 1 and a third land on turn 3. The only way I'd suggest cutting a land is if you were going to have a full set of both Birds and Hierarch. Gavony is the main way to make flooding less impactful. You could also consider adding 1-3 Horizon Canopy's in place of some of the Razorverge Thickets.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)