I'm pretty sick of Grixis Delver. They play enough removal (Terminate and Murderous Cut) and counters that if they use them intelligently, it's pretty rough to establish a winning board state over their haymakers, which come down pretty quickly. Add to it Young Pyromancer letting them go much wider than we can and their 8-10+ cantrips making them a pretty good amount more consistent than we are, and it's a rough match-up overall. Cards like Electrolyze, Kolaghan's Command, and Snapcaster Mage give them a pretty grindy plan to fall back on, which I've found can often out value us when combined with the other points I mentioned.
Our limited amount of removal can also be challenging against this deck, because it's often hard to balance saving removal for Young Pyro, while taking 3 in the air from a flipped Delver each turn, and still saving Paths for Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Gurmag Angler.
I'm unsure how to properly attack this deck. On one hand, trying to be blisteringly faster is an option, but not one we're perfectly well suited for, specifically against a deck with efficient counters and bolts. That said, trying to go with a value plan (using Restoration Angel and Thragtusk for example) aren't the perfect strategy for us either, although it's become the one I personal use against the deck.
What has everyone here been trying? Anything spicy or specifically powerful? I've put a single Thrun, The Last Troll in my main do to how often I've been up against this deck, and I've been really liking it so far. It's good enough in other matches that I'm happy to have Thrun along.
As the nondork version, this deck has been KILLING Grixis Delver. In 150 competitive matches against it I have yet to lose. Rhino and Liege and souls and a ton of sweepers make it insane as do thoughtseize effects pre board.
I like Thrun the Last troll. Sure, he doesnt get the double buff from liege, but a unkillable 5/5 can pose a threat to your opponent and has a rather big body as well.
Tron is really bad for us for sure, but Amulet is only good if you play the matchup tight. Its 50-50 imo. Taking summer bloom or anything that gets something like azusa. Thats how they win. I have done that since reading Stephen Specks article (I dont like the guy for doing what he did, but his article on how to beat amulet helped me a ton), I found I won matches with the deck. That said, sometimes they just have it.
As the nondork version, this deck has been KILLING Grixis Delver. In 150 competitive matches against it I have yet to lose. Rhino and Liege and souls and a ton of sweepers make it insane as do thoughtseize effects pre board.
Instead of just saying "150 competitive matches", why don't you do what I did before in this thread and post some specific test results, with deck lists for both decks and detailed analysis of the match? That'd be a bit more helpful specifically (and honestly, a touch more believable).
Sure! Totally understandable will write one tomorrow.
Thanks! This deck's been a pain in my ass for awhile, to the point that I'd be happy to take some advise from the sister deck of mine (dorks vs. dorkless) in beating it.
I imagine the discard heavy version also does pretty well against Collected Elves.
I think I'd cut the Bob's for 2 more Arbiter; Arbiter gets bigger with Liege and with the 4 Ghost Quarter I prefer that synergy. I also think you'll want some amount of Kitchen Finks, main or side, for burn.
How's your sideboard working? Is having 2 and 1 of's where you want to be with it, or would you rather tighten it up a bit?
I think I'd cut the Bob's for 2 more Arbiter; Arbiter gets bigger with Liege and with the 4 Ghost Quarter I prefer that synergy. I also think you'll want some amount of Kitchen Finks, main or side, for burn.
How's your sideboard working? Is having 2 and 1 of's where you want to be with it, or would you rather tighten it up a bit?
Bob is in there for the card advantage, which is something i feel really helps when games go longer.
I'm keeping Leonin Arbiter down for now due to the deck using fetches for fixing but i can try to play with more than 2 easily since i love the Ghost Quarter and Path to Exile synergy.
Side board is always a work with progress with my decks, I'm leaning on getting rid of the Leyline and Feed the Clan to tighten some of the others but its always meta dependent for what i think the sideboard needs.
I love it. Advent is great against decks like Twin, and crashes over Tas and Rhino. This deck avoids losing to much against burn with the Dromoka's Command.
I've been wanting to play with Advent again anyway, so I think this is an interesting variation of the deck.
I'm missing the siege rhino tho. 6 point lifeswing etb isn't something to neglect. Also the Rhino is getting pumped +2/+2 whereas the wurm only gets +1/+1. On the other hand eot wurm is nice. It draws countermagic out their hands, clearing the way for other threats. Maybe something with populate is also nice. I can see a 2/2 split with Rhino
A 6/6 Wurm is almost always as good as a 6/7 Rhino, except in cases of block+bolt, the mirror match, and I suppose against Prime Time from amulet Bloom.
I agree I miss the life gain though. Dromoka's Command helps a bit, but it doesn't fix the situation.
Imo Advent is a bad replacement for Rhino. Like Tigerpawx said its weak to bounce effects and it also dies to Abrupt Decay, another common removal spell in the format and Dispel. I think this price is too high for the (low) upside of being at instant speed.
The difference in body isn't so big, so this isn't realy an agrument..
First off, I prefer Rhino myself.
The weakness to Decay is really meaningful, the weakness to bounce exists and matters but isn't back breaking, and the weakness to Dispel will only rarely come up.
The advantage of being at flash speed is pretty big; against Twin you can play a 4 CMC threat on turn 3/4 (if you've got adork or not) instead of keeping up removal for the combo. It can generate advantage by flashing it in as a blocker to kill a Goyf or Tasigur for free. You can force your opponent to counter it on their turn, freeing you up to drop Liege on yours. These are useful applications.
The additional power is pretty damn important. The Wurm kills Rhino, Tas, more Goyfs, and trades with Angler. The extra point of power is pretty damn important in more than a few match-ups.
The mana is also easier, as black becomes less of a splash. It's minor, but not meaningless.
Again, I like Rhino more, but I could imagine Advent of the Wurm being a pretty reasonable card in the deck.
On paper it sounds good. I'm all for thinking outside the box here, but it does seem like a red flag to me that the card has been around for years now and has only shown up in a GW aggro list Craig Wescoe piloted a year ago at a PT, a States list with no Dorks, no Wilt Leaf, and Fleecemane Lion (thought it was Standard at first). Apart from that Daily that is.
If we are talking about replacing Siege Rhino, arguably one of the best creatures printed recently, that seems like a joke.
I could see Advent as a 1-2 of along side it, but I wouldn't cut Liege either.
Is it good enough vs control to warrant SB slot? Dunno. I like my SB to be pretty hateful.
I think it's fits the mold of all those solid, almost playables that get a bit of play in standard before falling off the map.
On paper it sounds good. I'm all for thinking outside the box here, but it does seem like a red flag to me that the card has been around for years now and has only shown up in a GW aggro list Craig Wescoe piloted a year ago at a PT, a States list with no Dorks, no Wilt Leaf, and Fleecemane Lion (thought it was Standard at first). Apart from that Daily that is.
If we are talking about replacing Siege Rhino, arguably one of the best creatures printed recently, that seems like a joke.
I could see Advent as a 1-2 of along side it, but I wouldn't cut Liege either.
Is it good enough vs control to warrant SB slot? Dunno. I like my SB to be pretty hateful.
I think it's fits the mold of all those solid, almost playables that get a bit of play in standard before falling off the map.
I am inclined to agree that Rhino is probably more powerful and necessary for the deck. The life swing is so powerful in a deck with other incremental gain, and as we draw 0 cards, anything extra our cards do before going 1 for 1 is really important.
But as for the card not showing up, we have to keep in mind Little Kid is a deck with very little data behind it. We've got Jacob Wilson's results, a few other tournaments, maybe a few daily's, and a bunch of anecdotal evidence and testing (I'm including mine with that). It's a young deck with plenty of room to grow and plenty of testing to do.
Perhaps we'll see Advent appear in future iterations of the deck, or perhaps not. I think the card could do with some testing, at the very least.
When I say hasn't shown up, I mean at all. Not limited to a specific archetype. Just in general. I can find only 2 other decks with a modicum of success that used the card since its printing.
While the "little kid" deck hasn't officially been around very long, there have been plenty of GWx aggro decks throughout the years.
Don't forget that the deck was based on Kibler's GW aggro lists. In fact, in his write up he traces it back as far as a 2012 to a strikingly similar GP top16 decklist that ran Dorks, Smiter, Souls, etc.
Seems to me if Advent were a thing, it would have caught on, especially with high level pros like Wescoe giving it a go at a PT.
It being hit by decay is really bad to me and is why I wouldnt play it.
Also anyone interested in more videos of liege rhino? I have wat kore time in a week to record. I can go over newer natchups against things like Grixis Delver and the new CoCo decks. If I can figure out how to stream it (I only stream PS4 right now) I can do that as well.
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Our limited amount of removal can also be challenging against this deck, because it's often hard to balance saving removal for Young Pyro, while taking 3 in the air from a flipped Delver each turn, and still saving Paths for Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Gurmag Angler.
I'm unsure how to properly attack this deck. On one hand, trying to be blisteringly faster is an option, but not one we're perfectly well suited for, specifically against a deck with efficient counters and bolts. That said, trying to go with a value plan (using Restoration Angel and Thragtusk for example) aren't the perfect strategy for us either, although it's become the one I personal use against the deck.
What has everyone here been trying? Anything spicy or specifically powerful? I've put a single Thrun, The Last Troll in my main do to how often I've been up against this deck, and I've been really liking it so far. It's good enough in other matches that I'm happy to have Thrun along.
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
Gay and Proud
#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
Instead of just saying "150 competitive matches", why don't you do what I did before in this thread and post some specific test results, with deck lists for both decks and detailed analysis of the match? That'd be a bit more helpful specifically (and honestly, a touch more believable).
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
Gay and Proud
#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
Thanks! This deck's been a pain in my ass for awhile, to the point that I'd be happy to take some advise from the sister deck of mine (dorks vs. dorkless) in beating it.
I imagine the discard heavy version also does pretty well against Collected Elves.
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
Gay and Proud
#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
Hi Im just looking for feedback on this and to see how to make it better!
2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2x Dark Confidant
2x Leonin Arbiter
3x Loxodon Smiter
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Siege Rhino
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
4x Voice of Resurgence
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
Otherspells
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Path to Exile
3x Thoughtseize
3x Forest
1x Gavony Township
4x Ghost Quarter
1x Godless Shrine
1x Overgrown Tomb
4x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
2x Chalice of the Void
2x Choke
1x Dismember
1x Feed the Clan
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Sword of War and Peace
2x Wrath of God
Gisela,Blade of Goldnight WR
Sigarda,Heron's Grace WG
This list looks interesting, I like it.
I think I'd cut the Bob's for 2 more Arbiter; Arbiter gets bigger with Liege and with the 4 Ghost Quarter I prefer that synergy. I also think you'll want some amount of Kitchen Finks, main or side, for burn.
How's your sideboard working? Is having 2 and 1 of's where you want to be with it, or would you rather tighten it up a bit?
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
Gay and Proud
#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
Bob is in there for the card advantage, which is something i feel really helps when games go longer.
I'm keeping Leonin Arbiter down for now due to the deck using fetches for fixing but i can try to play with more than 2 easily since i love the Ghost Quarter and Path to Exile synergy.
Side board is always a work with progress with my decks, I'm leaning on getting rid of the Leyline and Feed the Clan to tighten some of the others but its always meta dependent for what i think the sideboard needs.
Gisela,Blade of Goldnight WR
Sigarda,Heron's Grace WG
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Loxodon Smiter
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Voice of Resurgence
3 Wilt-Leaf Liege
4 Advent of the Wurm
3 Dromoka's Command
4 Path to Exile
3 Forest
3 Gavony Township
1 Godless Shrine
3 Marsh Flats
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
1 Swamp
2 Temple Garden
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
thoughts on this deck that 4-0'd the daily today? Advent of the Wurm and Dromoka's Command are interesting.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/modern-daily-2015-05-31
I love it. Advent is great against decks like Twin, and crashes over Tas and Rhino. This deck avoids losing to much against burn with the Dromoka's Command.
I've been wanting to play with Advent again anyway, so I think this is an interesting variation of the deck.
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
Gay and Proud
#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
A 6/6 Wurm is almost always as good as a 6/7 Rhino, except in cases of block+bolt, the mirror match, and I suppose against Prime Time from amulet Bloom.
I agree I miss the life gain though. Dromoka's Command helps a bit, but it doesn't fix the situation.
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
Gay and Proud
#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
EDH: Xenagos, God of Revels.
First off, I prefer Rhino myself.
The weakness to Decay is really meaningful, the weakness to bounce exists and matters but isn't back breaking, and the weakness to Dispel will only rarely come up.
The advantage of being at flash speed is pretty big; against Twin you can play a 4 CMC threat on turn 3/4 (if you've got adork or not) instead of keeping up removal for the combo. It can generate advantage by flashing it in as a blocker to kill a Goyf or Tasigur for free. You can force your opponent to counter it on their turn, freeing you up to drop Liege on yours. These are useful applications.
The additional power is pretty damn important. The Wurm kills Rhino, Tas, more Goyfs, and trades with Angler. The extra point of power is pretty damn important in more than a few match-ups.
The mana is also easier, as black becomes less of a splash. It's minor, but not meaningless.
Again, I like Rhino more, but I could imagine Advent of the Wurm being a pretty reasonable card in the deck.
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
Gay and Proud
#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
If we are talking about replacing Siege Rhino, arguably one of the best creatures printed recently, that seems like a joke.
I could see Advent as a 1-2 of along side it, but I wouldn't cut Liege either.
Is it good enough vs control to warrant SB slot? Dunno. I like my SB to be pretty hateful.
I think it's fits the mold of all those solid, almost playables that get a bit of play in standard before falling off the map.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
I am inclined to agree that Rhino is probably more powerful and necessary for the deck. The life swing is so powerful in a deck with other incremental gain, and as we draw 0 cards, anything extra our cards do before going 1 for 1 is really important.
But as for the card not showing up, we have to keep in mind Little Kid is a deck with very little data behind it. We've got Jacob Wilson's results, a few other tournaments, maybe a few daily's, and a bunch of anecdotal evidence and testing (I'm including mine with that). It's a young deck with plenty of room to grow and plenty of testing to do.
Perhaps we'll see Advent appear in future iterations of the deck, or perhaps not. I think the card could do with some testing, at the very least.
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
Gay and Proud
#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
While the "little kid" deck hasn't officially been around very long, there have been plenty of GWx aggro decks throughout the years.
Don't forget that the deck was based on Kibler's GW aggro lists. In fact, in his write up he traces it back as far as a 2012 to a strikingly similar GP top16 decklist that ran Dorks, Smiter, Souls, etc.
Seems to me if Advent were a thing, it would have caught on, especially with high level pros like Wescoe giving it a go at a PT.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Also anyone interested in more videos of liege rhino? I have wat kore time in a week to record. I can go over newer natchups against things like Grixis Delver and the new CoCo decks. If I can figure out how to stream it (I only stream PS4 right now) I can do that as well.