Domri is really good when your opponent never attacks him. But that's not the case right now. Either decks ignore him or can attack him. He's really only good against UWR and other slow midrange decks, but the current meta game isn't dominated enough by those decks to want to play domri.
I would play chandra pyromaster over domri any day, but CC is a better card overall.
Zoo can definitely top 8 a GP, the main problem is that not a lot of people play the deck. I've done pretty well with the big zoo archetype over the past few years and I can vouch for its power level.
If your looking to pick up the deck for GPs or opens, as long as twin/delver are tier 1, you get lots of free wins.
I suppose you can run both... you need to keep a 25 creature count for collected though. In my list I run 2 dromokas command instead of domri, but I suppose you could run it instead.
Yes, you can place with Zoo. Its getting better every printing, the better creatures always find a way into the deck. If you want a creature focused beat down deck, zoo is the best you can get in modern aside from affinity.
I'd suggest maybe adding the decklists and from page 174 and maybe one or two subsequent decklists to the front of the thread; that page seems pretty important to have to keep up with the conversation.
A couple of other thoughts, I really think Lightning Helix as burn spells 5-8 and Dromoka's Command help in the maindeck are worthwhile given Burn is a tough matchup.
Also, I don't have tournament results to back it up, but I think Evolutionary Leap is worth testing. It is a -1 card, 2 mana investment, but the payoff is pretty amazing in the testing games I have played.
wolf run is better because it's a mana sink. I would rather use my mana efficiently every turn than save a guy from a bolt.
In the games I've played, I've used Kessig for more than 1 twice. There were a lot more scenarios where I wanted Skarrg more than Kessig. There's a ton of removal in my meta, and there just aren't many cases where I have 5 mana and nothing do with it.
Its a little weird when you want to use it. You want it you are using Knight of the Reliquary, because you never want anymore than a 1 of with it, because in the deck you want it, you want aggression more, so multiples of Treetop Village would be better. But you also dont want it with any mana dorks, because at that point wolf run is better.
So again, you want it only in a deck that wants to be aggressive, runs a low enough mana/dork count to not want wolf run, and it wants knight (Used more as a huge beater at 3 mana rather than utility as well.)
So its an extremely narrow case you want to use it.
You forgot to mention that you also want Skarrg when your opponent is playing bolt, and that's a lot of the time in this metagame. The only time I want Kessig more than Skarrg is when I have 6+ mana and they have x/1 blockers. That scenario just doesn't exist a lot. Kessig has the same limitations Skarrg does. So far I've been more impressed with Skarrg than with Kessig. I don't know how many times you get to attack with 6 mana open and pump a guy +3/+0, but it's generally not that often.
Evolutionary Leap kinda competes with Collected Company. Although, I could see it being interesting for sure especially if you run Geist and sac the Angel every turn after damage, or chump blocking and then sacrificing for values.
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Current Decks Standard : WB Orzhov Vampires BWGUB Sultai Constrictor BUG Brawl : GB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons BG Modern : GB Golgari Elves BGGR Atarka Goblins RG Pauper : W Heroic WGB Delve BG
Evolutionary Leap kinda competes with Collected Company. Although, I could see it being interesting for sure especially if you run Geist and sac the Angel every turn after damage, or chump blocking and then sacrificing for values.
I agree that Leap and CC probably don't go in the same deck, especially given the deck building constraints (25+ creatures) CC requires. For the lower to the ground decks though or ones that play fewer creatures, Evolutionary Leap might be worth consideration, at least in grindier matchups.
wolf run is better because it's a mana sink. I would rather use my mana efficiently every turn than save a guy from a bolt.
In the games I've played, I've used Kessig for more than 1 twice. There were a lot more scenarios where I wanted Skarrg more than Kessig. There's a ton of removal in my meta, and there just aren't many cases where I have 5 mana and nothing do with it.
Its a little weird when you want to use it. You want it you are using Knight of the Reliquary, because you never want anymore than a 1 of with it, because in the deck you want it, you want aggression more, so multiples of Treetop Village would be better. But you also dont want it with any mana dorks, because at that point wolf run is better.
So again, you want it only in a deck that wants to be aggressive, runs a low enough mana/dork count to not want wolf run, and it wants knight (Used more as a huge beater at 3 mana rather than utility as well.)
So its an extremely narrow case you want to use it.
You forgot to mention that you also want Skarrg when your opponent is playing bolt, and that's a lot of the time in this metagame. The only time I want Kessig more than Skarrg is when I have 6+ mana and they have x/1 blockers. That scenario just doesn't exist a lot. Kessig has the same limitations Skarrg does. So far I've been more impressed with Skarrg than with Kessig. I don't know how many times you get to attack with 6 mana open and pump a guy +3/+0, but it's generally not that often.
Thats not quite true. With bolt, they still bolt it in responce to you activating it, so its hot and cold. Also if I'm in top deck mode, I want wolfrun more than pits because wolfrun I can dump everything into making a noble heirarch attack for 1+X/2 rather than only ever 2/3.
wolf run is better because it's a mana sink. I would rather use my mana efficiently every turn than save a guy from a bolt.
In the games I've played, I've used Kessig for more than 1 twice. There were a lot more scenarios where I wanted Skarrg more than Kessig. There's a ton of removal in my meta, and there just aren't many cases where I have 5 mana and nothing do with it.
Its a little weird when you want to use it. You want it you are using Knight of the Reliquary, because you never want anymore than a 1 of with it, because in the deck you want it, you want aggression more, so multiples of Treetop Village would be better. But you also dont want it with any mana dorks, because at that point wolf run is better.
So again, you want it only in a deck that wants to be aggressive, runs a low enough mana/dork count to not want wolf run, and it wants knight (Used more as a huge beater at 3 mana rather than utility as well.)
So its an extremely narrow case you want to use it.
You forgot to mention that you also want Skarrg when your opponent is playing bolt, and that's a lot of the time in this metagame. The only time I want Kessig more than Skarrg is when I have 6+ mana and they have x/1 blockers. That scenario just doesn't exist a lot. Kessig has the same limitations Skarrg does. So far I've been more impressed with Skarrg than with Kessig. I don't know how many times you get to attack with 6 mana open and pump a guy +3/+0, but it's generally not that often.
Thats not quite true. With bolt, they still bolt it in responce to you activating it, so its hot and cold. Also if I'm in top deck mode, I want wolfrun more than pits because wolfrun I can dump everything into making a noble heirarch attack for 1+X/2 rather than only ever 2/3.
You search/activate Skarrg in response to bolt, not the other way around. Skarrg also gives you the ability to dodge bolt whereas Kessig doesn't. In top deck mode with only Hierarch in play you're screwed, either way.
Evolutionary Leap kinda competes with Collected Company. Although, I could see it being interesting for sure especially if you run Geist and sac the Angel every turn after damage, or chump blocking and then sacrificing for values.
I agree that Leap and CC probably don't go in the same deck, especially given the deck building constraints (25+ creatures) CC requires. For the lower to the ground decks though or ones that play fewer creatures, Evolutionary Leap might be worth consideration, at least in grindier matchups.
Leap is bad in any aggressive zoo strategy, it works best in durdly decks or maybe a green splash in token variants.
Again, thats not true. Youre thinking too short term. Yes, you can deal with bolt in response to bolt, but thats not going to help you win the game if you have a 3/4 blocker, or even just a 0/4 wall of omens blocking. And with said bolt, you will always need to leave 3 mana open to avoid it, where as with wolfrun it means your next card can hit hard and not worry about bolt.
The truth isnt as clear cut as youre saying it is, and thats me knowing this fact with +1000 games of zoo, at least 200 of those having wolfrun, and 50-60 with pits. There is a reason why wolfrun is played more. Its a better card. There is 1-2 corner case where youd rather have bolt. Thats not the norm. 95% of the time you want wolfrun.
I'm personally running Ghost Quarter in place of Kessig Wolf Run. I never found a situation where I'd rather dump 4 mana into a bit of extra attack and trample than destroy a land that can potentially lose me the game (this is a devastating difference in Tron.) It also helps against jund, Naya Burn, and delver to an extent. Optimizing the lands with Knight is the key. It seems at least one Stirring Wildwood, Ghost Quarter, and Horizon Canopy are ideal for card advantage.
I'm personally running Ghost Quarter in place of Kessig Wolf Run. I never found a situation where I'd rather dump 4 mana into a bit of extra attack and trample than destroy a land that can potentially lose me the game (this is a devastating difference in Tron.) It also helps against jund, Naya Burn, and delver to an extent. Optimizing the lands with Knight is the key. It seems at least one Stirring Wildwood, Ghost Quarter, and Horizon Canopy are ideal for card advantage.
Using Kessig Wolf Run to allow our big creatures to "get through" a blocking Etched Champion is more than enough reason for me to play it. Without it, they are able to laugh at your 10/10 Knight of the Reliquary by constantly blocking it with a puny 2/2 over and over and over.
Keeping a Nacatl alive in response to Bolt is not going to win you that many games. Making a Knight trample big time over chump blockers is.
Wolf Run also can make your early game dudes trade with bigger threats from the opponent.
I think the most compelling argument I have heard for one over the other was what Zulander said after our games (I was his Jund opponent where he Junded himself a bit game 3 by mulling down to 3 cards) and then in his original post.
The vast majority of the time I do not activate Wolf Run for more than +1/+0 (Tap the Run + RG(1)). Pits costs less for the same power and has the added bonus of being bolt protection (Tap the pits + RG).
When Zulander said the name of the card last week I had no idea what it even was. Upon reflection, it seems worth a conversation. No question that Wolf Run can "steal" games. Your opponent stabilizes late game in a grind fest and you have a bunch of lands in play and one Nobel - top deck wolf run pup the dork - WIN. But mostly its just - give target creature trample that matters.
Clarification, you don't need to leave up 3 mana for bolt protection. If you have untapped knight you only need 2 mana - float red or green- sack to knight get the skarrg tap another red or green and pits activate - profit. Card advantage is a thing. Trading their bolt for nothing is a good deal. I would be curious to test this. Decision could change based on number of mana dorks you run. If you are running 5 you are more likely to be able to activate Wolf Run for more.
On the whole Skarg vs Wolfrun, why not play test both and see which one works best for your deck/play style. Lantern has done tons of testing to make him feel like Wolfrun is a better fit for him. If someone play tests Skarg and thinks its better go with that. Its good to have options. I dont currently use either but from my experience Wolfrun gives you more reach, better mid/late game in those grindy match ups and a finisher type play. As a person who runs both Zoo and Burn builds I can tell ya if we do Searing Blaze or Lightning BoltWild Nacatl its gonna be early and by the time you have enough mana to use Skarg and we need to Burn something were gonna wait till you cast something then hit the creature and it would make Skarg useless to protect whatever creature.
Burn players dont feel Zoo is a bad match up and are more worried about 3 other things then protecting a creature with plus 1. And lets not forget Path to Exile, Slaughter Pact, Doom Blade and many other removal spells that arent damage based so limiting the power to only +1 so you can have a +1 toughness limits the amount of damage you could have done. Several Burn builds also have Path, Terminate, Self-Inflicted Wound and other like cards to deal with hard to burn creatures in the side.
1. Game 2 and 3 side ins like Kor, Dragon's Claw and Leyline.
2. Lifegain from Finks and Rhino.
3. Smiter, Rhino, KotR getting huge and we cant chump block with Goblin Guide or Swiftspear to save a turn or 2 if it got grindy.
I agree with what r497 and Lantern has posted but again if someone finds Skarg works better for them then great, play it.
Keeping a Nacatl alive in response to Bolt is not going to win you that many games. Making a Knight trample big time over chump blockers is.
Wolf Run also can make your early game dudes trade with bigger threats from the opponent.
I'm playing with Wolf Run for quite some time and the card has won me SO MANY games that I really don't see it going away.
There were some matches that Wolf Run was the best card of the game by far and, if I had any other type of land, I'd have lost.
Let's say, for example, you are on turn 4 with a Knight and Nacatl on board and they Bolt your Nacatl. You fetch for Skarrg and save it. For you to be able to do that, you have to not have played anything more than a 2 drop (if you played your 4th land) or 1 drop (no land drop turn4) and have Knight untapped. Is it really worth it?
If it's later in the game, saving a Nacatl is not that big of a deal, as it's easily outclassed by other creatures, even more in a Delve world of 4/5s and 5/5s.
That said, having the ability to trade said Nacatl on combat with those 4/5s and 5/5s is much more appealing to me.
Also, late game when we don't have much to do with our mana (yeah, we have Ooze, but his ability is limited by how many creatures are on graveyards), Wolf Run shines as a mana sink and let's us threaten attacks with smaller dudes that would be useless otherwise.
This was brought up in the past, but has anyone done some real testing with Kytheon, Hero of Akros? He still feels like he could be included in the deck somewhere.
I like the idea, I'm still short the goyfs so I'll shove it in and test it myself. Can't say it'll reflect well since the deck wont be completed but I'll tell you how it goes.
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I would play chandra pyromaster over domri any day, but CC is a better card overall.
Zoo can definitely top 8 a GP, the main problem is that not a lot of people play the deck. I've done pretty well with the big zoo archetype over the past few years and I can vouch for its power level.
If your looking to pick up the deck for GPs or opens, as long as twin/delver are tier 1, you get lots of free wins.
Yes, you can place with Zoo. Its getting better every printing, the better creatures always find a way into the deck. If you want a creature focused beat down deck, zoo is the best you can get in modern aside from affinity.
It does seem to be getting better. Collected Company certainly pushed it over the edge.
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Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
A couple of other thoughts, I really think Lightning Helix as burn spells 5-8 and Dromoka's Command help in the maindeck are worthwhile given Burn is a tough matchup.
Also, I don't have tournament results to back it up, but I think Evolutionary Leap is worth testing. It is a -1 card, 2 mana investment, but the payoff is pretty amazing in the testing games I have played.
In the games I've played, I've used Kessig for more than 1 twice. There were a lot more scenarios where I wanted Skarrg more than Kessig. There's a ton of removal in my meta, and there just aren't many cases where I have 5 mana and nothing do with it.
You forgot to mention that you also want Skarrg when your opponent is playing bolt, and that's a lot of the time in this metagame. The only time I want Kessig more than Skarrg is when I have 6+ mana and they have x/1 blockers. That scenario just doesn't exist a lot. Kessig has the same limitations Skarrg does. So far I've been more impressed with Skarrg than with Kessig. I don't know how many times you get to attack with 6 mana open and pump a guy +3/+0, but it's generally not that often.
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Current Decks
Standard : WB Orzhov Vampires BW GUB Sultai Constrictor BUG
Brawl : GB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons BG
Modern : GB Golgari Elves BG GR Atarka Goblins RG
Pauper : W Heroic W GB Delve BG
I agree that Leap and CC probably don't go in the same deck, especially given the deck building constraints (25+ creatures) CC requires. For the lower to the ground decks though or ones that play fewer creatures, Evolutionary Leap might be worth consideration, at least in grindier matchups.
Thats not quite true. With bolt, they still bolt it in responce to you activating it, so its hot and cold. Also if I'm in top deck mode, I want wolfrun more than pits because wolfrun I can dump everything into making a noble heirarch attack for 1+X/2 rather than only ever 2/3.
You search/activate Skarrg in response to bolt, not the other way around. Skarrg also gives you the ability to dodge bolt whereas Kessig doesn't. In top deck mode with only Hierarch in play you're screwed, either way.
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Leap is bad in any aggressive zoo strategy, it works best in durdly decks or maybe a green splash in token variants.
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The truth isnt as clear cut as youre saying it is, and thats me knowing this fact with +1000 games of zoo, at least 200 of those having wolfrun, and 50-60 with pits. There is a reason why wolfrun is played more. Its a better card. There is 1-2 corner case where youd rather have bolt. Thats not the norm. 95% of the time you want wolfrun.
Using Kessig Wolf Run to allow our big creatures to "get through" a blocking Etched Champion is more than enough reason for me to play it. Without it, they are able to laugh at your 10/10 Knight of the Reliquary by constantly blocking it with a puny 2/2 over and over and over.
Wolf Run also can make your early game dudes trade with bigger threats from the opponent.
WGUBR 5c Humans
GWR Naya Zoo
Legacy:
GW GW Maverick
R Goblins
I think the most compelling argument I have heard for one over the other was what Zulander said after our games (I was his Jund opponent where he Junded himself a bit game 3 by mulling down to 3 cards) and then in his original post.
The vast majority of the time I do not activate Wolf Run for more than +1/+0 (Tap the Run + RG(1)). Pits costs less for the same power and has the added bonus of being bolt protection (Tap the pits + RG).
When Zulander said the name of the card last week I had no idea what it even was. Upon reflection, it seems worth a conversation. No question that Wolf Run can "steal" games. Your opponent stabilizes late game in a grind fest and you have a bunch of lands in play and one Nobel - top deck wolf run pup the dork - WIN. But mostly its just - give target creature trample that matters.
Clarification, you don't need to leave up 3 mana for bolt protection. If you have untapped knight you only need 2 mana - float red or green- sack to knight get the skarrg tap another red or green and pits activate - profit. Card advantage is a thing. Trading their bolt for nothing is a good deal. I would be curious to test this. Decision could change based on number of mana dorks you run. If you are running 5 you are more likely to be able to activate Wolf Run for more.
Burn players dont feel Zoo is a bad match up and are more worried about 3 other things then protecting a creature with plus 1. And lets not forget Path to Exile, Slaughter Pact, Doom Blade and many other removal spells that arent damage based so limiting the power to only +1 so you can have a +1 toughness limits the amount of damage you could have done. Several Burn builds also have Path, Terminate, Self-Inflicted Wound and other like cards to deal with hard to burn creatures in the side.
1. Game 2 and 3 side ins like Kor, Dragon's Claw and Leyline.
2. Lifegain from Finks and Rhino.
3. Smiter, Rhino, KotR getting huge and we cant chump block with Goblin Guide or Swiftspear to save a turn or 2 if it got grindy.
I agree with what r497 and Lantern has posted but again if someone finds Skarg works better for them then great, play it.
There were some matches that Wolf Run was the best card of the game by far and, if I had any other type of land, I'd have lost.
Let's say, for example, you are on turn 4 with a Knight and Nacatl on board and they Bolt your Nacatl. You fetch for Skarrg and save it. For you to be able to do that, you have to not have played anything more than a 2 drop (if you played your 4th land) or 1 drop (no land drop turn4) and have Knight untapped. Is it really worth it?
If it's later in the game, saving a Nacatl is not that big of a deal, as it's easily outclassed by other creatures, even more in a Delve world of 4/5s and 5/5s.
That said, having the ability to trade said Nacatl on combat with those 4/5s and 5/5s is much more appealing to me.
Also, late game when we don't have much to do with our mana (yeah, we have Ooze, but his ability is limited by how many creatures are on graveyards), Wolf Run shines as a mana sink and let's us threaten attacks with smaller dudes that would be useless otherwise.
WGUBR 5c Humans
GWR Naya Zoo
Legacy:
GW GW Maverick
R Goblins