Im looking at mtggolfish... I think dromkas command is really undervalued right now. Its good against the top 4 deck on there, twin, delver, rdw, jund. Save a creature is good
In all those matches. Fight is good against delver and rdw, and sometimes jund and twin. Sac a enchantment works against delvers bloodmoon and twins everything. Also vaild against enchantment dudes for jund and rdw. 1/1 is a counter.
Seems great right now.
I would agree with this. I was really reluctant to remove Lightning Helix but Dromoka's Command has been over-performing and is remarkably versatile in my one-drop zoo build. It also gives me mainboard hate against enchantments which has helped against this white weenie deck that I've been having some trouble with in my meta here.
oy Lantern! Can we see some videos with you doing some builds with Noble Hierarch now that she's dropped in price by more than 50%? I've been playing a lot of games with Sylvan Caryatid and she's been doing lots of work for me, but I can't help but imagine the Hierarch is oh so much better.
Want the good news or bad news? Good news, the minute its 7 tix online, I'm snap buying them If they stay at 10, I'll still probably get them.
Bad news, I'll have heirch and no reason not to play it... but I probably wont have time from work. Well see. Looking to quit soon and switch jobs.
@ Osackpo, when I was playing against CC combo or CC elves, having my own CC didn't help me that much. In the most positive case I get 2 huge knights, but I remember being forced to chump block a pumped elves army or someone combo-ing while I don't have sufficient removal. Kibler also posted an article on CC in non-combo decks and he is of the opinion it might be too slow or not giving the answers we need. So I was wondering why you think we need CC against other CC decks? I do think CC is a good card in a BG meta, but not so much in a combo meta. In that meta I prefer to have removal (or Dromoka's command). But of course I can be wrong (only having reasonable/good results in local tournaments so far).
Against certain combo decks like storm, for instance, CC can find cards like thalia and ethersworn canonist mid combo which can throw off math and stop them in their tracks. Against infect, burn, affinity or any other hyper aggressive deck, company can be too slow. CC is amazing against twin, bgx, and any other slower deck.
Against elves, it's too slow and dosen't find any interactive cards. against abzan company, CC finds scavenging ooze which is the best creature against them. Also having the ability to find other creatures is powerful in that matchup. That deck reminds me a lot of the old pod deck, in that it is a slow combo deck that has the potential to win out of no where. But us having the ability to have a flash spell that can cheat out huge creatures is very important.
I think week 1 when I top 8d the premier IQ, I did very well because the deck was tuned to beat more of the slower decks, rather than a lot of the combo decks. But now it looks like the meta game is shifting back toward more combo, and that could make CC slightly worse. Im not sure yet and waiting until the results of the invitational to update and tune my list for GP Charlotte.
Osackpo- i shaved down to 2 (again, theory, not playing. I havent had time.) But i feel alot about coco like i felt about finks. We can use it as value (probably the way designers intended lol...) but we dont break it. In the end were a fair deck. To us finks was:
Very good against aggro
Replaceable body vs removal.
But to pod it was:
Very good against aggro
Replaceable body vs removal
Resetable with lands
Resetable with resto
Resetable and triggers archangel
Double sacable with pod
Opps i win.
Same deal here with coco. Its fair value with us, not broken. We shouldnt treat it as the sacred cow. Its role is toolboxing lightly, which is good because zoo favors hatebears anyways, and removal (1 for one and sweeper), like a super ranger of eos.
So you should side it out against aggro (unless your running kitchen finks, and like, more than one) you should side it out against combo if you have no hatebears to coco into. Its at its best vs midrange and control. In rdw i side it out even.
I think 2 is probably correct here. Use it as a slightly worse bloodbraid, with the upside of better selection.
That last bit wasnt just to osackapo, but pretty much anyone having trouble evaluating thencard. Right now im running 2 main, one side, and some times i bring it in (jundks twin) sometimes i side it out completly ( elves, tron)
Osack. Is it good vs the current delvers? My gut says yes.
The tests doesnt lie, and like I said, tarmogoyf didnt perform too well for me. Im currently testing courser.
3 Ooze was good, but sometimes too much. And tested company too, not a fan of it in my deck, I prefer having helix or dromoka's command.
Boom bust did way better than blood moon in my deck, tested both in a lot of games.
Gaddock teeg in SB won more games than I expected.
I know you tested zoo a lot too and got results, but my tests were better with the current cards than tarmogoyf, CC and blood moon. I mean, I wouldnt go and post here my build with no results, I post it knowing that it was performing very well and after a lot of research and thinking pairings, etc.
I wouldnt ever cut nacatl from zoo, I go to midrange, yes, but my deck is agressive too with nacatls, bolts and helix. Nacatl win a lot of games along with bolts.
I tested in many games, 3 or 4 games each day in the last 3-4 months and against every modern staple. I taked the time to write a list with every modern staple deck, in +played to -played, and write along with every staple the cards that can do nice game against them from my deck, trying to reach at least 7 cards (main + sb) against every staple, so that way I am sure to have at least 7 cards in my deck that can play very well againt my opponent. For example ("¡" means SB):
ABZAN
4 Reliquary
4 Path
2 Scavenging Ooze
¡1 Sword of Light and Shadow
I said that Im currently testing courser, it isnt a must in my list, Im only testing to see its results.
And I can say it did well, but not better than my original build (I did -1 ooze -1 thundermaw +2 courser, for testing like I said). Courser did well in pairings were card advantage or lifes can shine like against control or burn, but it isnt enough. So I will -2 Courser +1 Ooze +1 Thundermaw, so my build would be this:
Although I dont like 3 ooze at all (too many I say...), they do better than courser (but at least I tested it, is what wanted). I been like 3-4 months testing this list and did really good against every modern staple. I mean, I dont win aaall the games, and there are bad days like with every deck in MtG, but my wins are clearly more than my loses.
Explaying why not goyfs: As you can see, my build goes more to interacting with my opponent and hate than agro. CC is great, but I dont have such hate creatures as a podless pod or D&T that can interact and hate, and helix and dromokas does better with my build at interactions (I decided to carry 2 and 2 after seeing it has better pairings overall than 4 helix/dromoka, with the modern staples list that I talked about before). Same as CC, goyf is a great agro, but I dont have space for it, the deck works well with the current creatures and spells. I keep nacatl because it is so insane that its an aggro-hate creature. Why hate?: forces opponent to deal with her on turn 1-2 and tap+use their removal on a 1cc creature, deals with almost every modern creature on first turn AND next turns, the time we gain is a great hate. Also, the kitty can win along with bolts and anything more, and turn 1 nacatl + turn 2 dromokas command can be a 2x1 against opposing bolts, creatures and enchants. Goyf does similar, but at 2cc, and the decision would be 4 nacatl or 4 goyf in my build; I clearly chose nacatl.
Explaying why not goyfs: As you can see, my build goes more to interacting with my opponent and hate than agro. CC is great, but I dont have such hate creatures as a podless pod or D&T that can interact and hate, and helix and dromokas does better with my build at interactions (I decided to carry 2 and 2 after seeing it has better pairings overall than 4 helix/dromoka, with the modern staples list that I talked about before). Same as CC, goyf is a great agro, but I dont have space for it, the deck works well with the current creatures and spells. I keep nacatl because it is so insane that its an aggro-hate creature. Why hate?: forces opponent to deal with her on turn 1-2 and tap+use their removal on a 1cc creature, deals with almost every modern creature on first turn AND next turns, the time we gain is a great hate. Also, the kitty can win along with bolts and anything more, and turn 1 nacatl + turn 2 dromokas command can be a 2x1 against opposing bolts, creatures and enchants. Goyf does similar, but at 2cc, and the decision would be 4 nacatl or 4 goyf in my build; I clearly chose nacatl.
But tarmogoyf rewards you for just playing magic. Interacting with your opponent grows the tarmogoyf and is great early and late. Goyf is great at being proactive where it can play defense but hit hard when it needs to. Zoo decks should should begin building with 4 nacatl, 4 goyf, 4 bolt and go from there.
Osackpo- i shaved down to 2 (again, theory, not playing. I havent had time.) But i feel alot about coco like i felt about finks. We can use it as value (probably the way designers intended lol...) but we dont break it. In the end were a fair deck. To us finks was:
Very good against aggro
Replaceable body vs removal.
But to pod it was:
Very good against aggro
Replaceable body vs removal
Resetable with lands
Resetable with resto
Resetable and triggers archangel
Double sacable with pod
Opps i win.
Same deal here with coco. Its fair value with us, not broken. We shouldnt treat it as the sacred cow. Its role is toolboxing lightly, which is good because zoo favors hatebears anyways, and removal (1 for one and sweeper), like a super ranger of eos.
So you should side it out against aggro (unless your running kitchen finks, and like, more than one) you should side it out against combo if you have no hatebears to coco into. Its at its best vs midrange and control. In rdw i side it out even.
I think 2 is probably correct here. Use it as a slightly worse bloodbraid, with the upside of better selection.
That last bit wasnt just to osackapo, but pretty much anyone having trouble evaluating thencard. Right now im running 2 main, one side, and some times i bring it in (jundks twin) sometimes i side it out completly ( elves, tron)
Osack. Is it good vs the current delvers? My gut says yes.
Good points about CC.
I think CC is okay against delver. Command seems better, it's like paths 5-6 to kill tasigur/angler
Ok so I have a CoCo brew with a Zoo shell I want to try, but was curious if you guys think that Zoo can support 2 CoCo and 2 Dromka's Command WHILE playing 4 Tribal Flames AND 2 Path. If not I have another direction I want to take my brew
Over the past 11 weeks I've gone 4 weeks of losing/drawing in the final round to place, then placing in 3 straight, and then again going 4 weeks in a row where I've lost in the last round.
It's been very frustrating. Last night was no different, where I made a bad blunder that costed me game 1 against Living Twin.
What do you guys do when you're in a slump? I trust the deck and process, but just can't shake it lol. I may just switch decks for a week or two and come back to Zoo, idk.
Over the past 11 weeks I've gone 4 weeks of losing/drawing in the final round to place, then placing in 3 straight, and then again going 4 weeks in a row where I've lost in the last round.
It's been very frustrating. Last night was no different, where I made a bad blunder that costed me game 1 against Living Twin.
What do you guys do when you're in a slump? I trust the deck and process, but just can't shake it lol. I may just switch decks for a week or two and come back to Zoo, idk.
That's magic. I usually take a break and draft or play ascension. Just do something you like to get your mind off of modern (or magic).
Yeap, that happens. Magic is 50% luck, 25% skill, 25% deck construction (or at least I think so).
About what Slapa said about my lands, there are times were my initial hands are bad, but that happens with every deck. I have 13 fetchlands + reliquary to fix mana, and that 3 lands are so good with reliquary that remove them would be a shame. But again, through testing I will know if 3 tool lands are too many or not.
Change format or drop magic completely for a while. Changing decks in modern doesnt help, you'll still swing towards your bais. Playing standard, or drafting is good because it forces you to get better at deck construction or playing skill.
Or drop magic. Thats what I do. I'm now oddly good at pokemon.
I would agree with this. I was really reluctant to remove Lightning Helix but Dromoka's Command has been over-performing and is remarkably versatile in my one-drop zoo build. It also gives me mainboard hate against enchantments which has helped against this white weenie deck that I've been having some trouble with in my meta here.
Here's my list at the moment:
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Temple Garden
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
CREATURES
4 Experiment One
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Goblin Guide
4 Loam Lion
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Atarka's Command
2 Boros Charm
2 Dromoka's Command
3 Destructive Revelry
2 Choke
1 Stony Silence
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Volcanic Fallout
3 Molten Rain
I've been wanting to add 2 Rending Volley to the sideboard but I'm not sure what to cut.
Want the good news or bad news? Good news, the minute its 7 tix online, I'm snap buying them If they stay at 10, I'll still probably get them.
Bad news, I'll have heirch and no reason not to play it... but I probably wont have time from work. Well see. Looking to quit soon and switch jobs.
Against certain combo decks like storm, for instance, CC can find cards like thalia and ethersworn canonist mid combo which can throw off math and stop them in their tracks. Against infect, burn, affinity or any other hyper aggressive deck, company can be too slow. CC is amazing against twin, bgx, and any other slower deck.
Against elves, it's too slow and dosen't find any interactive cards. against abzan company, CC finds scavenging ooze which is the best creature against them. Also having the ability to find other creatures is powerful in that matchup. That deck reminds me a lot of the old pod deck, in that it is a slow combo deck that has the potential to win out of no where. But us having the ability to have a flash spell that can cheat out huge creatures is very important.
I think week 1 when I top 8d the premier IQ, I did very well because the deck was tuned to beat more of the slower decks, rather than a lot of the combo decks. But now it looks like the meta game is shifting back toward more combo, and that could make CC slightly worse. Im not sure yet and waiting until the results of the invitational to update and tune my list for GP Charlotte.
So far it's performing ok-ish in fnm's and playtesting.
3x Arid Mesa
2x Forest
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Mountain
2x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Stomping Ground
2x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Loxodon Smiter
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Qasali Pridemage
3x Scavenging Ooze
1x Thundermaw Hellkite
4x Wild Nacatl
2x Woolly Thoctar
1x Collected Company
2x Dromoka's Command
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Path to Exile
Planeswalker (2)
2x Chandra, Pyromaster
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Boros Charm
2x Choke
2x Deflecting Palm
2x Stony Silence
2x Volcanic Fallout
1x Worship
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
Very good against aggro
Replaceable body vs removal.
But to pod it was:
Very good against aggro
Replaceable body vs removal
Resetable with lands
Resetable with resto
Resetable and triggers archangel
Double sacable with pod
Opps i win.
Same deal here with coco. Its fair value with us, not broken. We shouldnt treat it as the sacred cow. Its role is toolboxing lightly, which is good because zoo favors hatebears anyways, and removal (1 for one and sweeper), like a super ranger of eos.
So you should side it out against aggro (unless your running kitchen finks, and like, more than one) you should side it out against combo if you have no hatebears to coco into. Its at its best vs midrange and control. In rdw i side it out even.
I think 2 is probably correct here. Use it as a slightly worse bloodbraid, with the upside of better selection.
That last bit wasnt just to osackapo, but pretty much anyone having trouble evaluating thencard. Right now im running 2 main, one side, and some times i bring it in (jundks twin) sometimes i side it out completly ( elves, tron)
Osack. Is it good vs the current delvers? My gut says yes.
3 Ooze was good, but sometimes too much. And tested company too, not a fan of it in my deck, I prefer having helix or dromoka's command.
Boom bust did way better than blood moon in my deck, tested both in a lot of games.
Gaddock teeg in SB won more games than I expected.
I know you tested zoo a lot too and got results, but my tests were better with the current cards than tarmogoyf, CC and blood moon. I mean, I wouldnt go and post here my build with no results, I post it knowing that it was performing very well and after a lot of research and thinking pairings, etc.
I tested in many games, 3 or 4 games each day in the last 3-4 months and against every modern staple. I taked the time to write a list with every modern staple deck, in +played to -played, and write along with every staple the cards that can do nice game against them from my deck, trying to reach at least 7 cards (main + sb) against every staple, so that way I am sure to have at least 7 cards in my deck that can play very well againt my opponent. For example ("¡" means SB):
ABZAN
4 Reliquary
4 Path
2 Scavenging Ooze
¡1 Sword of Light and Shadow
AFFINITY
4 Bolt
4 Path
3 Qasali
2 Helix
2 Dromoka
¡2 Destructive Revelry
¡1 Stony Silence
BURN
2 Ooze
1 Ajani vengeant
2 Helix
2 Dromoka
And like that with every modern staple.
Dodging all Removal and beeing uncounterable seems fine to me.
Is there a particular reason to prefer Walkers over Thrun?
Green @ it's best
And I can say it did well, but not better than my original build (I did -1 ooze -1 thundermaw +2 courser, for testing like I said). Courser did well in pairings were card advantage or lifes can shine like against control or burn, but it isnt enough. So I will -2 Courser +1 Ooze +1 Thundermaw, so my build would be this:
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
3 Stomping Ground
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple Garden
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Slayers' Stronghold
1 Kessig Wolf Run
CREATURES
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Lightning Helix
2 Dromoka's Command
PLANESWALKERS
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Chandra Pyromaster
3 Boom // Bust
2 Choke
1 Rest in Peace
1 Stony Silence
2 Destructive Revelry
1 Sword of light and shadow
2 Boros Charm
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bonfire of the damned
Although I dont like 3 ooze at all (too many I say...), they do better than courser (but at least I tested it, is what wanted). I been like 3-4 months testing this list and did really good against every modern staple. I mean, I dont win aaall the games, and there are bad days like with every deck in MtG, but my wins are clearly more than my loses.
Explaying why not goyfs: As you can see, my build goes more to interacting with my opponent and hate than agro. CC is great, but I dont have such hate creatures as a podless pod or D&T that can interact and hate, and helix and dromokas does better with my build at interactions (I decided to carry 2 and 2 after seeing it has better pairings overall than 4 helix/dromoka, with the modern staples list that I talked about before). Same as CC, goyf is a great agro, but I dont have space for it, the deck works well with the current creatures and spells. I keep nacatl because it is so insane that its an aggro-hate creature. Why hate?: forces opponent to deal with her on turn 1-2 and tap+use their removal on a 1cc creature, deals with almost every modern creature on first turn AND next turns, the time we gain is a great hate. Also, the kitty can win along with bolts and anything more, and turn 1 nacatl + turn 2 dromokas command can be a 2x1 against opposing bolts, creatures and enchants. Goyf does similar, but at 2cc, and the decision would be 4 nacatl or 4 goyf in my build; I clearly chose nacatl.
But tarmogoyf rewards you for just playing magic. Interacting with your opponent grows the tarmogoyf and is great early and late. Goyf is great at being proactive where it can play defense but hit hard when it needs to. Zoo decks should should begin building with 4 nacatl, 4 goyf, 4 bolt and go from there.
Good points about CC.
I think CC is okay against delver. Command seems better, it's like paths 5-6 to kill tasigur/angler
*prob thinking Woolly Thoctars
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
My thought is shave Loxodon Smiters if there's not much blue in your meta, otherwise Woolly Thoctar.
Woolly Thoctar can trade with Seige Rhino and Loxodon Smiter can't.
Standard
UB UB Midrange UB
Modern
GRWUBTribal Flames ZooGRWUB
RUGTemur DelverRUG
Legacy
UW Stoneblade UW
It's been very frustrating. Last night was no different, where I made a bad blunder that costed me game 1 against Living Twin.
What do you guys do when you're in a slump? I trust the deck and process, but just can't shake it lol. I may just switch decks for a week or two and come back to Zoo, idk.
Need a collection tracker? Use EchoMTG here: https://www.echomtg.com/r/7bb6961d/
Join the Zoo Discord: https://discord.gg/Yu6eTSTrzA
That's magic. I usually take a break and draft or play ascension. Just do something you like to get your mind off of modern (or magic).
About what Slapa said about my lands, there are times were my initial hands are bad, but that happens with every deck. I have 13 fetchlands + reliquary to fix mana, and that 3 lands are so good with reliquary that remove them would be a shame. But again, through testing I will know if 3 tool lands are too many or not.
Or drop magic. Thats what I do. I'm now oddly good at pokemon.
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
Collected company is a better top end option for most decks, so tribal decks dropped in number overall. Other than that, its still a good card.