ketoglutarate is right in saying that Tron's sweepers are too varied for there to be a catchall answer. An alternative is to run many Tron answers in your sideboard that also have application against other decks.
The flexibility of white in the sideboard is one of the reasons I switched from G/b to G/w Elves (that and not being super interested in running x3 or x4 Shaman of the Pack as an alternate win condition.) Being able to chord for or hard cast proactive answers like Burrenton Forge-Tender or Selfless Spirit and the possibility of having a turn two Aven Mindcensor or especially Kataki, War's Wage against the various builds of Tron makes me feel much, much better about this match up than others have suggested. I also bring in x2 Path to Exile for their unbeatable creatures. (Phyrexian Revoker also works as a proactive answer or chord target for your planeswalkers and pesky artifacts, but is obviously not exclusive to G/w.)
That's a lot of sideboard cards for sure and the normal Elves game plan suffers from committing to this many non-elf cards. However, I would argue that this is a better strategy than the proposition of finding god and praying for no Tron match ups. My rationale is: Elves doesn't want to play against Tron, so it's okay to not play Elves against Tron. The match up is always going to be skill testing, and the math is probably always in their favor, but this can definitely be a real and fun game of Magic.
A tiny Tron-related brag. My meta has two dedicated Tron players (Tron player #1 alternates between G/R and Eldrazi and Tron player #2 alternates between G/R and G/W.) One of my favorite recent moments in Magic was beating them back to back for an undefeated FNM record after I offered a split to the G/W Tron player and was refused.
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The problem is Tron still has oblivion stone (and usually Natural State SB). Turn 4, Everything on your board, but your lands, are gone do to Oblivion Stone. Even if you infinite 1/1 on turn 3, they still have summoning sickness. And all infinite of them still die to a Pyroclasm. Infinite life is irrelevant to Tron because of Karn. Also with only 2 Curios, the percentage of getting all the pieces you need to do all this by turn 3 is very low. (Especially having all the pieces to get infinite mana, then infinite draw to find Shaman of the Pack and Dwynen's Elite, create the tokens, then Shaman of the Pack for lethal.)
Someone would have to do the Math, but I probably have a greater probability of going off fast and them not having a sweeper then I do of having the perfect hand with everything I need to go off by turn 3 and them still not having a sweeper or artifact destroy.
Removing 2 Cards from my deck for Curio MB brings the consistency of my deck down for all my other MUs. And just having it in SB means I have to remove two other pieces that I probably rather have for all the other MUs. (Right now im running GW, so giving up 2 slots to Curio instead of 2 bullets or 2 Chords wont work.)
Curio isn't a new idea. And with Combo elves where your focus is assembling the combo, it might be more viable.
G/R Tron is just a bad match up for us right now. (its a bad match up for a lot of decks). And that's ok, eventually something gets printed that makes the match up a little more even for us. Luckly a lot of people are trying out the G/W version and now the G/B version, and we can win those.
And just because there isn't much we can do about Tron, we still write on here because there is something we can do about the rest of Moderns diversity.
The problem is Tron still has oblivion stone (and usually Natural State SB). Turn 4, Everything on your board, but your lands, are gone do to Oblivion Stone. Even if you infinite 1/1 on turn 3, they still have summoning sickness. And all infinite of them still die to a Pyroclasm. Infinite life is irrelevant to Tron because of Karn. Also with only 2 Curios, the percentage of getting all the pieces you need to do all this by turn 3 is very low. (Especially having all the pieces to get infinite mana, then infinite draw to find Shaman of the Pack and Dwynen's Elite, create the tokens, then Shaman of the Pack for lethal.)
Someone would have to do the Math, but I probably have a greater probability of going off fast and them not having a sweeper then I do of having the perfect hand with everything I need to go off by turn 3 and them still not having a sweeper or artifact destroy.
Removing 2 Cards from my deck for Curio MB brings the consistency of my deck down for all my other MUs. And just having it in SB means I have to remove two other pieces that I probably rather have for all the other MUs. (Right now im running GW, so giving up 2 slots to Curio instead of 2 bullets or 2 Chords wont work.)
Curio isn't a new idea. And with Combo elves where your focus is assembling the combo, it might be more viable.
G/R Tron is just a bad match up for us right now. (its a bad match up for a lot of decks). And that's ok, eventually something gets printed that makes the match up a little more even for us. Luckly a lot of people are trying out the G/W version and now the G/B version, and we can win those.
And just because there isn't much we can do about Tron, we still write on here because there is something we can do about the rest of Moderns diversity.
Thank you for that last statement. It appears here that people think Tron is a bad matchup when it really isn't bad. Only G/R Tron is bad, the others are entirely winnable, not 100% sure who is favored, but I have always felt like I had a leg up when playing against G/W. I also agree with your point about Cloudstone Curio. It's too much of a pipe dream in this version of elves. There is an all in version that plays Summoner's Pact, and the curio is very good there!
By making the same example I might also say that with curio you can have a T3 infinite tokens, infinite mana or infinite card draw as easily as the opponent could have karn. Their only way out of the infinite tokens, for example, pyroclasm, and this buys you a turn. you have another turn to exploit curio again and win or set them far behind. You could also win on the spot t3.
This is not to argument that curio is the way to go, but that making examples sometimes brings to logical fallacies and therefore I suggest not to use them to prove points.
I really mean no disrespect: I see your point, but there's really no reason to write my reasons off in that way. I was only reasoning possible ways to overcome the problem, trying to contribute to the discussion.
The "no reason for needlessly innovating" is frankly ridiculous, as it is the "more experienced users have tried everything" one. When I find myself using these arguments, it's a sign I have no stimuli to improve something, and that I might as well stop tinkering about it.
If you are practically saying "there is nothing to do about it" then there is no reason to continue writing here, we can just print the most successful decks (or the primers) and be done with it!
I don't think either of you are trying to be malicious or disrespectful here, just have strong opinions. But you do make a statement that is blatantly incorrect about consistency that I must point out. Tron gets T3 Karn Liberated about 20% of the time (math from reddit thread I can't find atm). That is WAY more than you will assemble an infinite combo with Cloudstone Curio because you have 25% chance of having it in your hand on turn two, let alone a mana dork to cast it and a combo to follow up with. Overall, I think the card is just too slow for modern in a non 100% dedicated combo deck. There is a combo elves version that I allude to above that you can look into if you want to play the curio though!
Also, we always must be innovating. The second I stop looking for innovations because it's "not worth it" is the second I stop playing this game. The game is complex and always in flux, and exercising novel discovery is extremely important. This conversation has been productive and I'm glad we have had it, but my opinion against Cloudstone Curio stands.
By making the same example I might also say that with curio you can have a T3 infinite tokens, infinite mana or infinite card draw as easily as the opponent could have karn. Their only way out of the infinite tokens, for example, pyroclasm, and this buys you a turn. you have another turn to exploit curio again and win or set them far behind. You could also win on the spot t3.
This is not to argument that curio is the way to go, but that making examples sometimes brings to logical fallacies and therefore I suggest not to use them to prove points.
I really mean no disrespect: I see your point, but there's really no reason to write my reasons off in that way. I was only reasoning possible ways to overcome the problem, trying to contribute to the discussion.
The "no reason for needlessly innovating" is frankly ridiculous, as it is the "more experienced users have tried everything" one. When I find myself using these arguments, it's a sign I have no stimuli to improve something, and that I might as well stop tinkering about it.
If you are practically saying "there is nothing to do about it" then there is no reason to continue writing here, we can just print the most successful decks (or the primers) and be done with it!
Any sweeper is a way out of infinite tokens. They run anywhere from 8-10 of them. That's a lot of outs.
Theres...a reason why Curio isn't as good as you believe it is. There's a reason why the deck has moved past it. Patterns suggest that if the deck years ago wasn't good enough with Curio, the tools we have now are not good enough to play with Curio. If Curio was a decisive card in the current meta, Combo Elves would be the best variant of the deck in Modern (its not, and hasn't been for over two years now - and even when it was the best variant of Elves in Modern, it stayed in the same position it was now, relative obscurity.)
If the no need for innovating argument is ridiculous, what argument will you take to save yourself from wasting too much time with Curio? How about the small matter of there being no decklists on MTG Goldfish with any deck w/ Cloudstone Curio? How about the 7 pages of Elves decks on mtgtop8 and there only being a pattern of Cloudstone Curio seeing play that stops in 2014 (aka before DTK and Collected Company - and even then theres only 9 decklists versus the 60 on the other pages).
Its like trying to reinvent the wheel except having no new technology to improve it.
Tron is built around consistency - so its T1-3 sequencing is very much plain old gonna happen barring a bad keep on your opponent/mull to 4-5. You're suggesting that your t3 4 specific card combo with one of them only being a two of is a trump to their 20 cantrip, t3 built around deck that eats creature matchups for breakfast. That's borderline preposterous statistically (~2% to assemble your 4 card combo barring hitting lands or the mana dork (!) if the math is correct).
There are reasons to innovate in every other matchup - but Tron is a dead cause and most of us have acknowledged this. If beating Tron (RG tron in particular, as GW/GB is a whole lot easier.) is something you want to be doing, you shouldn't be playing this deck.
I just saw a guy playing with a playset of Panharmonicon mainboard.
This allow him to draw 2 card instead of one with elvish visionnary, put 2 token instead of one from dwynen elite, do twice the dammage from a Shaman of the pack.
Happy new year, guys! I am so proud to be in the pack and I hope we have another innovative, constructive, respectful, loving and trigger happy, token making, drawing and going wide year!
Hey all, long time elves player but first time posting here. I'm having trouble deciding on a solid GB build for GP usage. I'm currently running a 4/3/1 Coco/Lead/Chord split main and 3 chord's SB for silver bullet MU's. That is due to some of the advice I've seen in this thread. Also from this thread, I've cut down on visionaries and nettles a bit to make room for Rec Sage and Ooze MB. Not sure if these are the right choices but Rec Sage is always solid and I expect to see lots of Dredge at GP's for awhile.
My SB is focused on a few things:
- Chameleon Colossus: Any control deck with black
- Champion: Infect and Mirror, also any deck with green really
- Golgari Charm: Pyroclasm and Anger
Rest are pretty self explanatory
I expect to see a lot of Tron, Dredge, and Infect so that's what I'm prepping mostly for. Infect and Dredge I feel comfortable with (Not sure if Ooze is enough for Dredge hate though). Tron is obviously much more of an issue but besides golgari charm, revoker, and Sage, I don't see much else I can do except pray. I was thinking of running Selfless Spirit instead of Charm's despite having no W mana outside of fringe Cavern plays. I wanted to get feedback if that would be a viable option since I can board in 3 more Chord's and it gets hit off CoCo as well (I would basically be praying I don't draw both). I like Spirit better also because it helps vs the 4 mana wraths, not just pyro/anger.
Was hoping to get some help on my SB and MB silver bullet choices since I'm set into GB. I was thinking about Abzan but not being able to reliably cast either W or B spells seemed like a hindrance to me. W seemed good but I really want to keep Shaman as a win-con.
Works well with fetches. Sadly not out of bolt range even as a 4/3 but for 2 mana I think it's great.
At its best, its a 4/3 off a fetch on t2. At its worst, its a 2/1 for 2 that doesn't impact the board all that much. Doesn't pass the Bolt test, but passes the K Command test. I feel like it would demand a lot of fetches to be playable.
Much more excited for the black removal spell as a black replacement to Path where we would typically board Path in.
Just feels like an awkward bramblewood paragon to me. While it is more flexible and is slightly more castable, is it really worth cutting something else for?
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If only mimic also provided +1/+1 to creatures already in play, we might've had something there. As it is, I'm not sure that its good enough. The fact that it's 2cc is the only thing leaving me on the fence...a turn 2 mimic could be decent, would give us a 2cc lord. Don't see us chording for it and it doesn't seem great off CoCo, but it is an elf so would pickup any other buffs. May be worth playtesting.
Anyone think Fatal Push is going to be enough to justify sticking to g/b possibly? It doesn't change the whole game but does having a 1 cmc removal card like every tier 1 deck does, matter enough to be able to drop some hate cards?
I'd rather thoughtseize or IoK for 1 black. I know not the same thing. And outside of maybe a burn matchup, dismember seems stronger and more far reaching than Fatal Push.
I think Dwynen's Elite is better. Awesome if you run fetches. May replace Visionaries in some lists. Definitely worth a try. A potential t2 4/3 is great.
Correct me if I am wrong here but, what elves do we have in our deck lists that come in with +1/+1 counters? To me this would just be a 2/1 elf for 2 mana. As the text says "enters the battlefield with an additional +1/+1 counter" not enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter. So by that account it really wouldn't do anything for us.
Correct me if I am wrong here but, what elves do we have in our deck lists that come in with +1/+1 counters? To me this would just be a 2/1 elf for 2 mana. As the text says "enters the battlefield with an additional +1/+1 counter" not enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter. So by that account it really wouldn't do anything for us.
0+1 counter = 1 counter, each elf would get a +1/+1 counter.
I think it's still in the "cute" category, but there are starting to be more options for counters based elves.
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There's a whole bunch of cards from Aether Reovlt that seem like they would fit in Elves, but I'm not convinced.
Greenwheel Liberator is just a big dumb beatstick that requires you to play fetches. This deck goes wide more than it goes tall - a 2/2 with a 1/1 attached is better than a 4/3 due to cards that count the number of Elves you have in play. So I'm going to say no on Liberator. It's a better fit for an as-yet-undiscovered aggro version of Elves, with Bramblewood Paragon and Wren's Run Vanquisher (perhaps even 0 mana dorks).
Metallic Mimic turns into an Elf, meaning it taps for Heritage Druid and all the other stuff like that. However, it's a 2-drop which doesn't provide CA, just like Liberator. I suspect it would be better in other tribal decks like Allies or Humans. It doesn't count towards Nykthos, but that's not too big of a deal given that this deck only plays 1.
Note that Mimic has a Melira-like combo with Safehold Elite, but it's much worse because 1) Safehold Elite is a pretty underwhelming card without the combo (compared to Kitchen Finks), 2) Safehold Elite doesn't gain life on ETB (you need Essence Warden) and 3) Viscera Seer is a Vampire, eating into the consistency of the deck.
Rishkar, Peema Renegade is a 3-drop that can be casted off Heritage Druid mana. In terms of stats it's not too bad - it provides 4 P/T for 3 mana. Its effect is really good with Nettle Sentinel, practicallly the same as Heritage Druid. I don't think it will replace anything in this deck, but the combo versions of Elves (anything with Beck // Call or Cloudstone Curio) should give it a look. In Curio Elves it's an enabler and wincon all in one, granting Nettle Sentinel a mana ability, and when you have infinite mana, you can bounce and replay Rishkar and some other dork repeatedly for infinite +1/+1 counters.
Silkweaver Elite is a Wistful Selkie that requires you to play fetches. I think I'll stick to Lead the Stampede in the 3 slot. It might be better in green Devotion decks, which need all the card draw (preferably attached to permanents with green mana symbols on them) that they can find.
Anyone think Fatal Push is going to be enough to justify sticking to g/b possibly? It doesn't change the whole game but does having a 1 cmc removal card like every tier 1 deck does, matter enough to be able to drop some hate cards?
Fush may well have me playing this deck again. Bye Great Revel. Hello Nihil Spellbomb. .99 instead of $$ for extras of Abrupt Decay or Beast Within. What's not to like!?
I've played with Bramblewood Paragon and I'm still certain that this card is a trap. It's just not fast enough and it does have an awkward interaction with Collected Company. I'll probably play the new Mimic as a 4-of alongside Bramblewood Paragon, Lead the Stampede, Joraga Warcaller and Imperious Perfect just to have a fun Mono-Green-evening. 1-mana +2/+2-Lord and a 1-mana-Tap 4/4 Elf each Turn under the right circumstances sounds fun but I don't expect it to be competitive.
And I didn't see a new Elf für Modern yet. But I'm still excited to see Elves in this Set so I'll happily keep an eye out
Does anyone else think that Fatal Push is going to hurt elves way more than it helps? Sure we care more about board wipes but yet another 1cmc spot removal card that works against our entire deck seems very bad for us and our winrate %.
Does anyone else think that Fatal Push is going to hurt elves way more than it helps? Sure we care more about board wipes but yet another 1cmc spot removal card that works against our entire deck seems very bad for us and our winrate %.
I 100% agree. I honestly don't like Fatal Push in elves. If I am playing a card that doesn't go along with my gameplan, I would rather have Thoughtseize to help me win. We tend not to care much about creatures, although it might help against Infect and Death Shadow Zoo.
The real problem I see with this card, is Abzan now gets an answer to our Turn 1 mana dorks! The matchup is still probably fine and in our favor, but that's quite annoying.
Hey guys! I just joined the boards. I couldn't help myself. I refresh this thread every hour to see if there's anything new. I'm a die hard elf player. I've been playing for about 2 years now, so I'm still fairly newer to the game. I play the GB variant; it's easily my favorite. My only struggle is the decision making between Chords/Stampedes and Nettles/no Nettles. I always find myself going back and forth and can't decide which is better. Also, are Cavern of Souls worth the money? I currently own 1 and was considering acquiring another or selling the 1 I currently have. Thanks everyone!
Also- do you think the new Rishkar has a place in modern elves?
Caverns are worth it if you see a lot of blue decks in your meta. Otherwise you can skip it to avoid not having coloured mana. Especially since Kaladesh gave us Blooming Marsh.
As for the Nettle/No Nettle, they're better in Lead builds because they allow you to chain spells one after another. Without the ability to do that and without Heritage Druid on board, they're mostly just 2/2 vanilla creatures. Personally I've taken them out few months back and haven't missed them at all.
The flexibility of white in the sideboard is one of the reasons I switched from G/b to G/w Elves (that and not being super interested in running x3 or x4 Shaman of the Pack as an alternate win condition.) Being able to chord for or hard cast proactive answers like Burrenton Forge-Tender or Selfless Spirit and the possibility of having a turn two Aven Mindcensor or especially Kataki, War's Wage against the various builds of Tron makes me feel much, much better about this match up than others have suggested. I also bring in x2 Path to Exile for their unbeatable creatures. (Phyrexian Revoker also works as a proactive answer or chord target for your planeswalkers and pesky artifacts, but is obviously not exclusive to G/w.)
That's a lot of sideboard cards for sure and the normal Elves game plan suffers from committing to this many non-elf cards. However, I would argue that this is a better strategy than the proposition of finding god and praying for no Tron match ups. My rationale is: Elves doesn't want to play against Tron, so it's okay to not play Elves against Tron. The match up is always going to be skill testing, and the math is probably always in their favor, but this can definitely be a real and fun game of Magic.
A tiny Tron-related brag. My meta has two dedicated Tron players (Tron player #1 alternates between G/R and Eldrazi and Tron player #2 alternates between G/R and G/W.) One of my favorite recent moments in Magic was beating them back to back for an undefeated FNM record after I offered a split to the G/W Tron player and was refused.
Modern: GW Elves; Living End
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Someone would have to do the Math, but I probably have a greater probability of going off fast and them not having a sweeper then I do of having the perfect hand with everything I need to go off by turn 3 and them still not having a sweeper or artifact destroy.
Removing 2 Cards from my deck for Curio MB brings the consistency of my deck down for all my other MUs. And just having it in SB means I have to remove two other pieces that I probably rather have for all the other MUs. (Right now im running GW, so giving up 2 slots to Curio instead of 2 bullets or 2 Chords wont work.)
Curio isn't a new idea. And with Combo elves where your focus is assembling the combo, it might be more viable.
G/R Tron is just a bad match up for us right now. (its a bad match up for a lot of decks). And that's ok, eventually something gets printed that makes the match up a little more even for us. Luckly a lot of people are trying out the G/W version and now the G/B version, and we can win those.
And just because there isn't much we can do about Tron, we still write on here because there is something we can do about the rest of Moderns diversity.
Thank you for that last statement. It appears here that people think Tron is a bad matchup when it really isn't bad. Only G/R Tron is bad, the others are entirely winnable, not 100% sure who is favored, but I have always felt like I had a leg up when playing against G/W. I also agree with your point about Cloudstone Curio. It's too much of a pipe dream in this version of elves. There is an all in version that plays Summoner's Pact, and the curio is very good there!
I don't think either of you are trying to be malicious or disrespectful here, just have strong opinions. But you do make a statement that is blatantly incorrect about consistency that I must point out. Tron gets T3 Karn Liberated about 20% of the time (math from reddit thread I can't find atm). That is WAY more than you will assemble an infinite combo with Cloudstone Curio because you have 25% chance of having it in your hand on turn two, let alone a mana dork to cast it and a combo to follow up with. Overall, I think the card is just too slow for modern in a non 100% dedicated combo deck. There is a combo elves version that I allude to above that you can look into if you want to play the curio though!
Also, we always must be innovating. The second I stop looking for innovations because it's "not worth it" is the second I stop playing this game. The game is complex and always in flux, and exercising novel discovery is extremely important. This conversation has been productive and I'm glad we have had it, but my opinion against Cloudstone Curio stands.
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Any sweeper is a way out of infinite tokens. They run anywhere from 8-10 of them. That's a lot of outs.
Theres...a reason why Curio isn't as good as you believe it is. There's a reason why the deck has moved past it. Patterns suggest that if the deck years ago wasn't good enough with Curio, the tools we have now are not good enough to play with Curio. If Curio was a decisive card in the current meta, Combo Elves would be the best variant of the deck in Modern (its not, and hasn't been for over two years now - and even when it was the best variant of Elves in Modern, it stayed in the same position it was now, relative obscurity.)
If the no need for innovating argument is ridiculous, what argument will you take to save yourself from wasting too much time with Curio? How about the small matter of there being no decklists on MTG Goldfish with any deck w/ Cloudstone Curio? How about the 7 pages of Elves decks on mtgtop8 and there only being a pattern of Cloudstone Curio seeing play that stops in 2014 (aka before DTK and Collected Company - and even then theres only 9 decklists versus the 60 on the other pages).
Its like trying to reinvent the wheel except having no new technology to improve it.
Tron is built around consistency - so its T1-3 sequencing is very much plain old gonna happen barring a bad keep on your opponent/mull to 4-5. You're suggesting that your t3 4 specific card combo with one of them only being a two of is a trump to their 20 cantrip, t3 built around deck that eats creature matchups for breakfast. That's borderline preposterous statistically (~2% to assemble your 4 card combo barring hitting lands or the mana dork (!) if the math is correct).
There are reasons to innovate in every other matchup - but Tron is a dead cause and most of us have acknowledged this. If beating Tron (RG tron in particular, as GW/GB is a whole lot easier.) is something you want to be doing, you shouldn't be playing this deck.
I just saw a guy playing with a playset of Panharmonicon mainboard.
This allow him to draw 2 card instead of one with elvish visionnary, put 2 token instead of one from dwynen elite, do twice the dammage from a Shaman of the pack.
What do you think? Do you think it is viable?
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Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx just every once in a while helps out, so I am still on the fence.
My SB is focused on a few things:
- Chameleon Colossus: Any control deck with black
- Champion: Infect and Mirror, also any deck with green really
- Golgari Charm: Pyroclasm and Anger
Rest are pretty self explanatory
I expect to see a lot of Tron, Dredge, and Infect so that's what I'm prepping mostly for. Infect and Dredge I feel comfortable with (Not sure if Ooze is enough for Dredge hate though). Tron is obviously much more of an issue but besides golgari charm, revoker, and Sage, I don't see much else I can do except pray. I was thinking of running Selfless Spirit instead of Charm's despite having no W mana outside of fringe Cavern plays. I wanted to get feedback if that would be a viable option since I can board in 3 more Chord's and it gets hit off CoCo as well (I would basically be praying I don't draw both). I like Spirit better also because it helps vs the 4 mana wraths, not just pyro/anger.
4x Cavern of Souls
1x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
4x Dwynen's Elite
4x Elvish Archdruid
4x Elvish Mystic
3x Elvish Visionary
2x Ezuri, Renegade Leader
5x Forest
4x Gilt-Leaf Palace
4x Heritage Druid
3x Lead the Stampede
4x Llanowar Elves
3x Nettle Sentinel
1x Pendelhaven
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Shaman of the Pack
1x Chameleon Colossus
3x Chord of Calling
1x Elvish Champion
2x Golgari Charm
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Spellskite
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
Was hoping to get some help on my SB and MB silver bullet choices since I'm set into GB. I was thinking about Abzan but not being able to reliably cast either W or B spells seemed like a hindrance to me. W seemed good but I really want to keep Shaman as a win-con.
Thanks in advance!
What do we think about this one?
Works well with fetches. Sadly not out of bolt range even as a 4/3 but for 2 mana I think it's great.
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RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
At its best, its a 4/3 off a fetch on t2. At its worst, its a 2/1 for 2 that doesn't impact the board all that much. Doesn't pass the Bolt test, but passes the K Command test. I feel like it would demand a lot of fetches to be playable.
Much more excited for the black removal spell as a black replacement to Path where we would typically board Path in.
Fatal Push is definitely a great choice for those splashing black.
WBG Elves WBG
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EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
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I'd rather thoughtseize or IoK for 1 black. I know not the same thing. And outside of maybe a burn matchup, dismember seems stronger and more far reaching than Fatal Push.
Correct me if I am wrong here but, what elves do we have in our deck lists that come in with +1/+1 counters? To me this would just be a 2/1 elf for 2 mana. As the text says "enters the battlefield with an additional +1/+1 counter" not enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter. So by that account it really wouldn't do anything for us.
0+1 counter = 1 counter, each elf would get a +1/+1 counter.
I think it's still in the "cute" category, but there are starting to be more options for counters based elves.
-Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
Greenwheel Liberator is just a big dumb beatstick that requires you to play fetches. This deck goes wide more than it goes tall - a 2/2 with a 1/1 attached is better than a 4/3 due to cards that count the number of Elves you have in play. So I'm going to say no on Liberator. It's a better fit for an as-yet-undiscovered aggro version of Elves, with Bramblewood Paragon and Wren's Run Vanquisher (perhaps even 0 mana dorks).
Metallic Mimic turns into an Elf, meaning it taps for Heritage Druid and all the other stuff like that. However, it's a 2-drop which doesn't provide CA, just like Liberator. I suspect it would be better in other tribal decks like Allies or Humans. It doesn't count towards Nykthos, but that's not too big of a deal given that this deck only plays 1.
Note that Mimic has a Melira-like combo with Safehold Elite, but it's much worse because 1) Safehold Elite is a pretty underwhelming card without the combo (compared to Kitchen Finks), 2) Safehold Elite doesn't gain life on ETB (you need Essence Warden) and 3) Viscera Seer is a Vampire, eating into the consistency of the deck.
Rishkar, Peema Renegade is a 3-drop that can be casted off Heritage Druid mana. In terms of stats it's not too bad - it provides 4 P/T for 3 mana. Its effect is really good with Nettle Sentinel, practicallly the same as Heritage Druid. I don't think it will replace anything in this deck, but the combo versions of Elves (anything with Beck // Call or Cloudstone Curio) should give it a look. In Curio Elves it's an enabler and wincon all in one, granting Nettle Sentinel a mana ability, and when you have infinite mana, you can bounce and replay Rishkar and some other dork repeatedly for infinite +1/+1 counters.
Silkweaver Elite is a Wistful Selkie that requires you to play fetches. I think I'll stick to Lead the Stampede in the 3 slot. It might be better in green Devotion decks, which need all the card draw (preferably attached to permanents with green mana symbols on them) that they can find.
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Big Johnny.
Fush may well have me playing this deck again. Bye Great Revel. Hello Nihil Spellbomb. .99 instead of $$ for extras of Abrupt Decay or Beast Within. What's not to like!?
And I didn't see a new Elf für Modern yet. But I'm still excited to see Elves in this Set so I'll happily keep an eye out
I 100% agree. I honestly don't like Fatal Push in elves. If I am playing a card that doesn't go along with my gameplan, I would rather have Thoughtseize to help me win. We tend not to care much about creatures, although it might help against Infect and Death Shadow Zoo.
The real problem I see with this card, is Abzan now gets an answer to our Turn 1 mana dorks! The matchup is still probably fine and in our favor, but that's quite annoying.
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Also- do you think the new Rishkar has a place in modern elves?
As for the Nettle/No Nettle, they're better in Lead builds because they allow you to chain spells one after another. Without the ability to do that and without Heritage Druid on board, they're mostly just 2/2 vanilla creatures. Personally I've taken them out few months back and haven't missed them at all.
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EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW