Change is scary. Warcallers are ridiculous. I have had a pretty open discussion about them in the past. I don't want to compare Visionary to Warcaller. They do very different things. However, flipping one warcaller and another elf is still great. Just doesn't draw a card. In exchange, you might top deck one later for overrun. If your unlucky enough to only have two warcallers as an option. I'm sorry.
Uh, I'm am NOT picking a fight here but... you kinda dropped all visionaries for warcaller. As in literally took their slots, so... The comparison was of course made.
As an aside, when I played 4 warcallers I replaced the sentinels, and I was playing Leads over Chords since there is better synergy there (you want to cast this "lord", not chord for it). Eventually the warcallers were dropped because when you can cast them with 1 kicker, you'd rather have any other lord, such as archdruid or ezuri or even imperious perfect. And then when you can multikick, it may as well have been ezuri. Their biggest advantage over these is being able to come down without kickers and tap with Heritage (that's why I dropped Nettles instead). And I feel our curve covers enough of that probability that we don't have to drop another part of the core for it (in your case, the visionaries).
Perhaps you could try that instead. I think the missed card velocity from visionary does have an impact. Even toolbox lists don't cut all 4, they cut 1 at most.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
@Marcwizard
The comparison was not made in my post. I don't think someone who plays lead the stampede in Chord of Calling slot is directly comparing them. Same goes for both creatures. In reference to someone mentioning "flip a 1/1 off a CoCo", I was just making a small point that visionary isn't much better always. None of what I said was even directed towards you. I am sorry for your bad experience with them.
I'm unsure how to reply to your statement though. I am playing Chord/Shaman so I couldn't cut Nettles.
@Marcwizard
The comparison was not made in my post. I don't think someone who plays lead the stampede in Chord of Calling slot is directly comparing them. Same goes for both creatures. In reference to someone mentioning "flip a 1/1 off a CoCo", I was just making a small point that visionary isn't much better always. None of what I said was even directed towards you. I am sorry for your bad experience with them.
I'm unsure how to reply to your statement though. I am playing Chord/Shaman so I couldn't cut Nettles.
Naw, I was just pointing out _why_ we made that comparison at all. I mean, its a logical flow from "oh, he cut the visionaries for warcallers, so warcallers > visionaries?"
My experience with them wasn't terribad, I just felt like they didn't make that advantage (the one where u can play them as a one drop OR a lord) as powerful as it sounds on paper, which lead to me swapping back to sentinels.
With regards to Lead vs Chord, you would actually be comparing them. They can't full any of the 34-35 creature slots, and they won't replace Coco. So one would ask, "Leads > Chord?" or vice versa. I understand the process behind your cutting visionaries for warcallers may not be so straightforward as we have so many creatures and its all about the synergy.
Nonetheless, the reason the rest of us started selling Visionaries is because they were the tradeoff you chose for the warcallers. Personally, I feel the warcallers are good in a meta with tonnes of midrange since the spot removals will constantly keep our army off of the key officers, leaving only grunts. It makes sense to have an "NCO" who can be either a grunt or officer when the time calls for it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
It is him. Unlucky with lands in Game 2 and perhaps a misplay in Game 1. Not sure if he had Chord in hand to fetch a Spellskite and blank those two Mutagenic Growths.
Everyone makes mistakes under that kind of pressure especially being filmed. Also, I would have mulled that 1 lander. In my opinion you really need multiple dorks and an elvish visionary to keep a 1 land hand. Even if Melira was in the opening hand you can't trust that it or your dork won't die and Melira is good against infect when you present a clock. It doesn't just stop them dead in their tracks.
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
I am very interested in your list. It will be nice if you also put a short summary of the tournament.
I'm home now and got some rest, and now back to the drawing board! I decided it will be easiest to separate this into two posts. One for the tournament, and a second for things going forward. I've got some changes already in mind for the deck, but I was really happy with the list I ran this weekend. I ended 11-4 overall for the 2nd GP in a row which felt a little disappointing after starting 8-1.
As you all know I went on stream Day 2 against Phil Napoli, and I will openly say that was not my best moment. I don't usually let things get to me, but I got very nervous being on stream and did not play my best. Game 1, as soon as I scooped I remembered the CoCo in my hand and if I had hit Spellskite I could have likely swung the game in my favor. Game 2 I still feel confident in my opening hand because I did not expect a Dismember and there were plenty of draws that would have been good, but I drew a lot of high drop cards. I also should not have bluffed with an attack that cost me my Dwynen's Elite, but the Grafdigger's Cage he played the turn before I found mana for CoCo sealed my fate.
Day 2 pairings
RD 10 Grixis Delver 2-0
RD 11 Naya Burn 2-1
RD 12 Affinity 0-2 (Turn 3'd by lethal Inkmoth G1 and G2)
RD 13 Infect 0-2 (Phil Napoli on stream)
RD 14 Infect 2-1
RD 15 Jund 0-2 (Steve Rubin; applied a lot of pressure, but mainboard Anger G1 and heavy removal with Bob G2 got it.)
I won about half of my games with Shaman of the Pack and the other half With Ezuri, Renegade Leader.
I grinded a lot of testing in the previous month and it certainly paid off. I tested against Infect and Dredge a lot, and I think it showed with my 5-1 record against infect. I even lost 5/6 game 1s against infect and went on to win games 2 and 3 in 4/5 of those matches. When I playtest I usually play my list versus every list I can imagine and get my hands on, but also try and play every list versus someone playing my elves deck. This allows me to understand how each deck tries to win and what they will try to do to stop me from winning. The deck I struggled against the most was Affinity, but both losses had nut hands that I'm not sure any sideboard or mainboard changes could have changed those results.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"We have been patient. We have planned our attack. We are ready... now."
-Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
Yes, I will definitely be making some changes. First I want to explain some of my choices for this GP.
Mainboard
Notable Exclusions: Nettle Sentinel: This card is good, but there are times it just isn't great. If you're stringing elves together to dump your hand it's great and you can end a game quickly. Other times it is a 2/2 that you're casting an elf every turn so it can untap and attack. I play Essence Warden instead. Elvish Visionary: This card has always seemed lackluster. It costs 2 mana and gives you a vanilla 1/1 body. Yes it replaces itself, but no other elf in my entire deck is as weak of a play as this card. It's usually a terrible topdeck and it kills a chain when stringing elfs. I cut them altogether and did not miss them one bit. Eternal Witness: This card is extremely powerful to buy back Chord of CoCo. However, if I have the mana to be stringing plays like that together I am winning the game anyway. There are other times when it sits in my hand with no target, it comes out when I play RiP, and it isn't an elf or a strong body in play. Lead the Stampede: The best card that will win you most attrition matches. The problem is that most turns you cast it, you can't actually play any of the creatures you now have in your hand. You're tapped out, produced no immediate board presence, and revealed information about essentially every card in your hand.
Notable Inclusions Essence Warden: I cannot begin to explain how powerful this card can be. I've been running it for a few months now and it has always been very strong against burn, aggro, and midrange decks. The incremental lifegain is very hard to deal with and if they start removing them, they start to run out of removal for the threats that end the game. 3 Ezuri, Renegade Leader: Most lists I see run only 2 Ezuris. I have almost always run three and it's always felt like the right amount. I never mind drawing a 2nd copy and it is either removed or it will end the game. Shaman of the Pack: Ezuri is plan A for me. Shaman is a very strong plan B. Playtested 2 at first, didn't seem like it was always enough to kill without already getting help from combat or painful landbases. 3 worked out really well, might try to work in a fourth, but I don't want to cut Ezuri for it. Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx: Nykthos can grind out a bunch of elves, help string CoCos or chords with few untapped permanents, and overrun without an Archdruid. I've seen recommendations for Westvale Abbey, but I don't think this is where I'd ever want to be. I feel like it's dumping all your eggs in one Pathable basket when you should be wary of a sweeper and try to protect yourself with a Selfless Spirit or not overextend. Chord of Calling: I love this card. Sometimes I feel it is more powerful than CoCo. Gets me exactly the card I want. I have Ezuri in hand? Chord for Archdruid. Opponent at 7 with 6 elves in play? Chord for Shaman. Opponent comboing for the win? Chord for a silver bullet target. Opponent cast a sweeper? Chord for Selfless Spirit. Selfless Spirit: I have no doubt this card deserves a spot in my main. Mainboard Anger of the Gods in Jund, Engineered Explosives in Eldrazi, Conflagrate in Dredge, and most other mainboard sweepers need an answer. Can also block Inkmoth Nexus, allow one-sided combat phases, blank a removal to a critical elf, or just swing for 2 in the air. What more could you want?
Sideboard:
I'll be looking at trimming down my sideboard of non-creature permanents and replacing them with tutorable creatures where possible. Mark of Asylum might stay due to its overwhelming power in matches sure as Jeskai and Grixis and their Bolt-Snap-Bolt and Electrolyze plays. Also, Izzet Staticaster and Ghirapur Aether Grid just ruin our day. MoA also shuts off Valakut decks with Aven Mindcensor. Rest in Peace can be very strong against graveyard dependent decks if you get it early. Against Dredge it is usually too late if it isn't in your opening hand or first couple draws. The better bet for this matchup is to race it to a strong. board and then overwhelm them. Selfless Spirit to help with Conflagrate and a strong board will usually do it. Midrange decks usually have a way to remove RiP and then refill their graveyard. I will be playtesting a Loaming Shaman as a CoCo hit or Chord target in response to Narcomoeba, Prized Amalgam, or Bloodghast triggers. It can also help against weakening Goyfs, cutting Grim Flayer off delirium, and removing Snapcaster targets at instant speed. Scavenging Ooze can help do these things as well, but other times it can't eat an entire graveyard at once when it's needed. Stony Silence was helpful in stalling Affinity, but it does not stop Affinity. I'll be looking at adding Kataki, War's Wage back in. I really like Fracturing Gust, but the cost is sometimes too much, and isn't tutorable. I will probably add a second Rec Sage to the board as well.
Melira, Sylvok Outcast is extremely narrow, only good against one Infect, and Inkmoth in Affinity. Boy, did I need her. Melira saved my butt so many times it's not even funny. She may be narrow, but don't leave home without her. Dismember was definitely the card that came in the most, and I put it to great use against infect. Two seemed sufficient, but I might add a third if there's a slot. Phyrexian Revoker definitely helped in the Affinity match I won, shutting off Cranial Plating and Steel Overseer. Also can block Etched Champion if it comes down to it. It also has a lot of other uses and I highly recommend it. Selfless Spirit is an all-star and I will find a spot in my main for it. May have a 2nd in my board is well. Chameleon Colossus is really good in the Dredge and Midrange matchups. I only saw him once, but that game did not much last longer. Aven Mindcensor and Eidolon of Rhetoric didn't come in over the weekend, but that is mainly because I didn't see the matchups they're best for. Aven may come in against 3-colored decks after sideboard changes, but for now there just wasn't room. Eidolon is really good for the Ad Nauseum, Storm, and cascade (Living End/Restore Balance) decks.
I'll post with updates as they come along.
Feel free to ask any questions you have, pose ideas, or comment on anything you like or dislike. I've learned a lot from this forum, and hope others can do the same from me.
Feel free to ask any questions you have, pose ideas, or comment on anything you like or dislike. I've learned a lot from this forum, and hope others can do the same from me.
Thank your for your explanations and congratulations on your record.
I have a question about your mana base. I count 7 black sources (4 Caverns, 3 Palaces) for Shaman of the Pack and Dismember:
Did you have problems casting Shaman from your hand during your matches? Frank Karsten's article states you have a >90% probability to have one colour in play by Turn 7 if you run 9 coloured sources - and you run even less.
How often was the life loss from Dismember relevent as you probably had to pay 2-4 life most of the time? (I guess not that often due to your frequent matchups against Infect)
Hello guys, Im pretty new to elves modern and have a question:
Craterhoof Behemoth and Chameleon Collossus are used for wich reasons?
Thank you
Craterhoof Behemoth is used as a finisher. Successfully casting one on a board with 4 elves gives all your creatures +4/+4 and trample which is usually enough to win a game. It's more commonly used in the version running Summoner's Pact and Cloudstone Curio which rely less on Ezuri and Shaman of the Pack as the wincons.
Chameleon Colossus is great because it's almost impossible to remove. Being 4CMC blanks Abrupt Decay. 4 toughness blanks Lightning Bolt. Protection from black makes Dismember, Terminate and other common modern removal useless. It's second ability allows you to pump it and finish games very quickly if unblocked. Decks like Grixis, Jund and even Dredge can have a very hard time dealing with it.
Hello guys, Im pretty new to elves modern and have a question:
Craterhoof Behemoth and Chameleon Collossus are used for wich reasons?
Thank you
Craterhoof Behemoth is used as a finisher. Successfully casting one on a board with 4 elves gives all your creatures +4/+4 and trample which is usually enough to win a game. It's more commonly used in the version running Summoner's Pact and Cloudstone Curio which rely less on Ezuri and Shaman of the Pack as the wincons.
Chameleon Colossus is great because it's almost impossible to remove. Being 4CMC blanks Abrupt Decay. 4 toughness blanks Lightning Bolt. Protection from black makes Dismember, Terminate and other common modern removal useless. It's second ability allows you to pump it and finish games very quickly if unblocked. Decks like Grixis, Jund and even Dredge can have a very hard time dealing with it.
I think something to note here is that Craterhoof is not really used in the version discussed most in this forum, it is used in the Beck//Call combo list with cloudstone curio. On the other hand, Chameleon Colossus and to some extent, Thrun the Last troll are often used in the sideboard of this deck as they both get around very popular removal in the format.
Hello guys, Im pretty new to elves modern and have a question:
Craterhoof Behemoth and Chameleon Collossus are used for wich reasons?
Thank you
Craterhoof Behemoth is used as a finisher. Successfully casting one on a board with 4 elves gives all your creatures +4/+4 and trample which is usually enough to win a game. It's more commonly used in the version running Summoner's Pact and Cloudstone Curio which rely less on Ezuri and Shaman of the Pack as the wincons.
Chameleon Colossus is great because it's almost impossible to remove. Being 4CMC blanks Abrupt Decay. 4 toughness blanks Lightning Bolt. Protection from black makes Dismember, Terminate and other common modern removal useless. It's second ability allows you to pump it and finish games very quickly if unblocked. Decks like Grixis, Jund and even Dredge can have a very hard time dealing with it.
And don't forget with the Colossus, if our opponent is playing Living End and you have 0 or just 1 Lord, you can activate it for 0, let your creatures die in response to the Living End and bring them back just like your opponent brings back his creatures But does not work if you have 2 Lords on the battlefield.
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
I also want to point out that if you're dealing with living end, our typical sideboard bullet Eidolon of Rhetoric can deal with it. See also: Tajuru Preserver which stops restore balance, lily's -2.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Thank your for your explanations and congratulations on your record.
I have a question about your mana base. I count 7 black sources (4 Caverns, 3 Palaces) for Shaman of the Pack and Dismember:
Did you have problems casting Shaman from your hand during your matches? Frank Karsten's article states you have a >90% probability to have one colour in play by Turn 7 if you run 9 coloured sources - and you run even less.
How often was the life loss from Dismember relevent as you probably had to pay 2-4 life most of the time? (I guess not that often due to your frequent matchups against Infect)
Thank you very much,
Shandoral
1. Very good question! I ran essentially 7 black sources for Shaman of the Pack, which typically if I want to start casting it from hand I feel like I wanted to start doing so around turn 5. With 7 sources I had about an 80% chance of having the black source I needed to cast the Shaman, but this formula doesn't account for the chance of me actually having a Shaman in hand. There is just under a 50% chance of me having a Shaman of the Pack in my hand by turn 5 with the 3 copies I ran. Thus, in the 20% of games that I did not have a black source, only half of those did I actually have a Shaman in hand that I could not cast. This equates to about 90% of games being where I either do have a black source, or I do not have a Shaman in hand.
One other reason for only 3 Gilt-Leaf Palace is that my sideboard is primarily white. If I wanted a 4th, I would most likely have to cut a Razorverge Thicket and would have lowered my chances of playing the sideboard cards I drew. If I decided on running the 4th Shaman of the Pack I would most likely run the 4th Gilt-Leaf and try to trim the white in the sideboard.
2. I decided I wanted to run a removal spell in my sideboard. I chose Dismember based on looking for the best card that met what I was looking for between cost, downsides, and situations where it can or needs to be used. The main contenders were Path to Exile, Dismember, and Gut Shot. The main situations where I like removal spells are for removing an infect creature, a dork in the mirror, and killing creatures that cause us continuous trouble such as Kalitas, Izzet Staticaster, or Olivia Voldaren.
Path to Exile although only 1 mana, it requires white mana which can be a little more difficult to cast at times. Its downside is that it gives my opponent a land, but since I am a ramp deck this usually isn't too bad. However, this ramping does make casting it early in the game extremely dangerous. It is more versatile in removal than most spells, but having such a harsh downside in the early game against an opposing infect creature or dork in the mirror can cause a lot of problems.
Dismember can be as little as 1 mana, and that mana is colorless. Its downside is usually (honestly almost always) paying 4 life to kill something. Against infect life is usually not relevant. Against the mirror speed is everything and spending one mana to kill a turn 1 dork or turn 2 Archdruid can be back-breaking. Other big threats like Kalitas would make our lives miserable and deal much more damage than the 4 we are paying so I don't usually see it as a huge detriment. Dismember will kill the majority of creatures that we need it to.
Gut Shot is always paying 2 life. This is very convenient in being able to cast it alongside a turn 1 dork to kill your opponents Glistener Elf or dork. The biggest issue is that infect could potentially decide that it is worth saving the creature and spending a buff spell such as Mutagenic Growth on it. It easily kills a turn 1 dork, but an Archdruid or Kalitas are going to stick around and cause us troubles.
After taking this into account I thought Dismember was the most reliable card for me to play.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"We have been patient. We have planned our attack. We are ready... now."
-Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
How was mark of asylum for you during the gp?
Would it be too much in combination with 2 selfless spirits?
Could they be replaced with 2 thoughtseize to remove the opposing sweeper?
Were they necessary? Could you go a bit more in detail with the card (:
Thanks in advance and congratulations to your strong finish!
Thanks Feinunze!
Mark of Asylum didn't have a lot of use against the decks I faced except Affinity and Jund. Mark is best against repeatable damage from things like Ghirapur Æther Grid and Izzet Staticaster in addition to bolts and Anger/Pyroclasm. I'll be playtesting soon whether spot removal for the repeatable offenders and having a Selfless Spirit in the main and/or board is sufficient for sweepers. The toughest question will be on protecting Aven Mindcensor against Valakut decks. I would probably run Stain the Mind before I ran Thoughtseize.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"We have been patient. We have planned our attack. We are ready... now."
-Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
@Vormi, you're thinking of Mirror Entity. You can also make your guys smaller so they can go under their Ensnaring Bridge and then you can just pump them back up.
Oh yes right, sorry about the Chameleon Colossus, of course I meant Mirror Entity
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
Guys running GB, have you considered sideboarding out Shaman of the Pack for speed against decks like Affinity or infect? Lower your curve a bit?
Yeap, I do. More accurately, I remove creatures of the same CMC as far as possible. So against affinity, 1 visionary would make way for 1 kataki. 1 Shaman becomes a Rec sage. Against infect, skite and melira replace 2 visionaries while elvish champion replaces a shaman.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I know my sideboarding choices are a little odd, but nettles or elites are generally the first things to go. I like visionaries to draw into the sideboard stuff I need
Uh, I'm am NOT picking a fight here but... you kinda dropped all visionaries for warcaller. As in literally took their slots, so... The comparison was of course made.
As an aside, when I played 4 warcallers I replaced the sentinels, and I was playing Leads over Chords since there is better synergy there (you want to cast this "lord", not chord for it). Eventually the warcallers were dropped because when you can cast them with 1 kicker, you'd rather have any other lord, such as archdruid or ezuri or even imperious perfect. And then when you can multikick, it may as well have been ezuri. Their biggest advantage over these is being able to come down without kickers and tap with Heritage (that's why I dropped Nettles instead). And I feel our curve covers enough of that probability that we don't have to drop another part of the core for it (in your case, the visionaries).
Perhaps you could try that instead. I think the missed card velocity from visionary does have an impact. Even toolbox lists don't cut all 4, they cut 1 at most.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
The comparison was not made in my post. I don't think someone who plays lead the stampede in Chord of Calling slot is directly comparing them. Same goes for both creatures. In reference to someone mentioning "flip a 1/1 off a CoCo", I was just making a small point that visionary isn't much better always. None of what I said was even directed towards you. I am sorry for your bad experience with them.
I'm unsure how to reply to your statement though. I am playing Chord/Shaman so I couldn't cut Nettles.
Naw, I was just pointing out _why_ we made that comparison at all. I mean, its a logical flow from "oh, he cut the visionaries for warcallers, so warcallers > visionaries?"
My experience with them wasn't terribad, I just felt like they didn't make that advantage (the one where u can play them as a one drop OR a lord) as powerful as it sounds on paper, which lead to me swapping back to sentinels.
With regards to Lead vs Chord, you would actually be comparing them. They can't full any of the 34-35 creature slots, and they won't replace Coco. So one would ask, "Leads > Chord?" or vice versa. I understand the process behind your cutting visionaries for warcallers may not be so straightforward as we have so many creatures and its all about the synergy.
Nonetheless, the reason the rest of us started selling Visionaries is because they were the tradeoff you chose for the warcallers. Personally, I feel the warcallers are good in a meta with tonnes of midrange since the spot removals will constantly keep our army off of the key officers, leaving only grunts. It makes sense to have an "NCO" who can be either a grunt or officer when the time calls for it.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
RD 1 Affinity (Loss)
RD 2 Abzan Midrange
RD 3 Infect
RD 4 RW Prison
RD 5 Affinity
RD 6 Infect
RD 7 Infect
RD 8 Infect
RD 9 UB Mill
I'll post a deck list for sure and a full write-up if anyone wants after day 2.
-Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
Also 4 matchups against Infect just in day 1, crazy.
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
I wonder if it's slaywithfury
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Heritage Druid
4x Essence Warden
4x Dwynen's Elite
4x Elvish Archdruid
3x Ezuri, Renegade Leader
3x Shaman of the Pack
1x Elvish Champion
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Spellskite
4x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
Lands (18):
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Razorverge Thicket
4x Horizon Canopy
3x Gilt-Leaf Palace
2x Forest
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
3x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
2x Mark of Asylum
2x Dismember
1x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Chameleon Colossus
Taken from screencap before the match.
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
Gratulations on the record. So after the event, would you make any changes to your list?
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
I'm home now and got some rest, and now back to the drawing board! I decided it will be easiest to separate this into two posts. One for the tournament, and a second for things going forward. I've got some changes already in mind for the deck, but I was really happy with the list I ran this weekend. I ended 11-4 overall for the 2nd GP in a row which felt a little disappointing after starting 8-1.
As you all know I went on stream Day 2 against Phil Napoli, and I will openly say that was not my best moment. I don't usually let things get to me, but I got very nervous being on stream and did not play my best. Game 1, as soon as I scooped I remembered the CoCo in my hand and if I had hit Spellskite I could have likely swung the game in my favor. Game 2 I still feel confident in my opening hand because I did not expect a Dismember and there were plenty of draws that would have been good, but I drew a lot of high drop cards. I also should not have bluffed with an attack that cost me my Dwynen's Elite, but the Grafdigger's Cage he played the turn before I found mana for CoCo sealed my fate.
Day 2 pairings
RD 10 Grixis Delver 2-0
RD 11 Naya Burn 2-1
RD 12 Affinity 0-2 (Turn 3'd by lethal Inkmoth G1 and G2)
RD 13 Infect 0-2 (Phil Napoli on stream)
RD 14 Infect 2-1
RD 15 Jund 0-2 (Steve Rubin; applied a lot of pressure, but mainboard Anger G1 and heavy removal with Bob G2 got it.)
I won about half of my games with Shaman of the Pack and the other half With Ezuri, Renegade Leader.
I grinded a lot of testing in the previous month and it certainly paid off. I tested against Infect and Dredge a lot, and I think it showed with my 5-1 record against infect. I even lost 5/6 game 1s against infect and went on to win games 2 and 3 in 4/5 of those matches. When I playtest I usually play my list versus every list I can imagine and get my hands on, but also try and play every list versus someone playing my elves deck. This allows me to understand how each deck tries to win and what they will try to do to stop me from winning. The deck I struggled against the most was Affinity, but both losses had nut hands that I'm not sure any sideboard or mainboard changes could have changed those results.
-Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Heritage Druid
4x Essence Warden
4x Dwynen's Elite
4x Elvish Archdruid
3x Ezuri, Renegade Leader
3x Shaman of the Pack
1x Elvish Champion
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Spellskite
4x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
Lands (18):
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Razorverge Thicket
4x Horizon Canopy
3x Gilt-Leaf Palace
2x Forest
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
3x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
2x Mark of Asylum
2x Dismember
1x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Chameleon Colossus
Yes, I will definitely be making some changes. First I want to explain some of my choices for this GP.
Mainboard
Notable Exclusions:
Nettle Sentinel: This card is good, but there are times it just isn't great. If you're stringing elves together to dump your hand it's great and you can end a game quickly. Other times it is a 2/2 that you're casting an elf every turn so it can untap and attack. I play Essence Warden instead.
Elvish Visionary: This card has always seemed lackluster. It costs 2 mana and gives you a vanilla 1/1 body. Yes it replaces itself, but no other elf in my entire deck is as weak of a play as this card. It's usually a terrible topdeck and it kills a chain when stringing elfs. I cut them altogether and did not miss them one bit.
Eternal Witness: This card is extremely powerful to buy back Chord of CoCo. However, if I have the mana to be stringing plays like that together I am winning the game anyway. There are other times when it sits in my hand with no target, it comes out when I play RiP, and it isn't an elf or a strong body in play.
Lead the Stampede: The best card that will win you most attrition matches. The problem is that most turns you cast it, you can't actually play any of the creatures you now have in your hand. You're tapped out, produced no immediate board presence, and revealed information about essentially every card in your hand.
I don't think I need to explain the power of Heritage, Archdruid, dorks, Dwynen's Elite, or CoCo.
Notable Inclusions
Essence Warden: I cannot begin to explain how powerful this card can be. I've been running it for a few months now and it has always been very strong against burn, aggro, and midrange decks. The incremental lifegain is very hard to deal with and if they start removing them, they start to run out of removal for the threats that end the game.
3 Ezuri, Renegade Leader: Most lists I see run only 2 Ezuris. I have almost always run three and it's always felt like the right amount. I never mind drawing a 2nd copy and it is either removed or it will end the game.
Shaman of the Pack: Ezuri is plan A for me. Shaman is a very strong plan B. Playtested 2 at first, didn't seem like it was always enough to kill without already getting help from combat or painful landbases. 3 worked out really well, might try to work in a fourth, but I don't want to cut Ezuri for it.
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx: Nykthos can grind out a bunch of elves, help string CoCos or chords with few untapped permanents, and overrun without an Archdruid. I've seen recommendations for Westvale Abbey, but I don't think this is where I'd ever want to be. I feel like it's dumping all your eggs in one Pathable basket when you should be wary of a sweeper and try to protect yourself with a Selfless Spirit or not overextend.
Chord of Calling: I love this card. Sometimes I feel it is more powerful than CoCo. Gets me exactly the card I want. I have Ezuri in hand? Chord for Archdruid. Opponent at 7 with 6 elves in play? Chord for Shaman. Opponent comboing for the win? Chord for a silver bullet target. Opponent cast a sweeper? Chord for Selfless Spirit.
Selfless Spirit: I have no doubt this card deserves a spot in my main. Mainboard Anger of the Gods in Jund, Engineered Explosives in Eldrazi, Conflagrate in Dredge, and most other mainboard sweepers need an answer. Can also block Inkmoth Nexus, allow one-sided combat phases, blank a removal to a critical elf, or just swing for 2 in the air. What more could you want?
Sideboard:
I'll be looking at trimming down my sideboard of non-creature permanents and replacing them with tutorable creatures where possible.
Mark of Asylum might stay due to its overwhelming power in matches sure as Jeskai and Grixis and their Bolt-Snap-Bolt and Electrolyze plays. Also, Izzet Staticaster and Ghirapur Aether Grid just ruin our day. MoA also shuts off Valakut decks with Aven Mindcensor.
Rest in Peace can be very strong against graveyard dependent decks if you get it early. Against Dredge it is usually too late if it isn't in your opening hand or first couple draws. The better bet for this matchup is to race it to a strong. board and then overwhelm them. Selfless Spirit to help with Conflagrate and a strong board will usually do it. Midrange decks usually have a way to remove RiP and then refill their graveyard. I will be playtesting a Loaming Shaman as a CoCo hit or Chord target in response to Narcomoeba, Prized Amalgam, or Bloodghast triggers. It can also help against weakening Goyfs, cutting Grim Flayer off delirium, and removing Snapcaster targets at instant speed. Scavenging Ooze can help do these things as well, but other times it can't eat an entire graveyard at once when it's needed.
Stony Silence was helpful in stalling Affinity, but it does not stop Affinity. I'll be looking at adding Kataki, War's Wage back in. I really like Fracturing Gust, but the cost is sometimes too much, and isn't tutorable. I will probably add a second Rec Sage to the board as well.
Melira, Sylvok Outcast is extremely narrow, only good against one Infect, and Inkmoth in Affinity. Boy, did I need her. Melira saved my butt so many times it's not even funny. She may be narrow, but don't leave home without her.
Dismember was definitely the card that came in the most, and I put it to great use against infect. Two seemed sufficient, but I might add a third if there's a slot.
Phyrexian Revoker definitely helped in the Affinity match I won, shutting off Cranial Plating and Steel Overseer. Also can block Etched Champion if it comes down to it. It also has a lot of other uses and I highly recommend it.
Selfless Spirit is an all-star and I will find a spot in my main for it. May have a 2nd in my board is well.
Chameleon Colossus is really good in the Dredge and Midrange matchups. I only saw him once, but that game did not much last longer.
Aven Mindcensor and Eidolon of Rhetoric didn't come in over the weekend, but that is mainly because I didn't see the matchups they're best for. Aven may come in against 3-colored decks after sideboard changes, but for now there just wasn't room. Eidolon is really good for the Ad Nauseum, Storm, and cascade (Living End/Restore Balance) decks.
I'll post with updates as they come along.
Feel free to ask any questions you have, pose ideas, or comment on anything you like or dislike. I've learned a lot from this forum, and hope others can do the same from me.
-Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
Thank your for your explanations and congratulations on your record.
I have a question about your mana base. I count 7 black sources (4 Caverns, 3 Palaces) for Shaman of the Pack and Dismember:
Thank you very much,
Shandoral
Craterhoof Behemoth and Chameleon Collossus are used for wich reasons?
Thank you
Craterhoof Behemoth is used as a finisher. Successfully casting one on a board with 4 elves gives all your creatures +4/+4 and trample which is usually enough to win a game. It's more commonly used in the version running Summoner's Pact and Cloudstone Curio which rely less on Ezuri and Shaman of the Pack as the wincons.
Chameleon Colossus is great because it's almost impossible to remove. Being 4CMC blanks Abrupt Decay. 4 toughness blanks Lightning Bolt. Protection from black makes Dismember, Terminate and other common modern removal useless. It's second ability allows you to pump it and finish games very quickly if unblocked. Decks like Grixis, Jund and even Dredge can have a very hard time dealing with it.
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
I think something to note here is that Craterhoof is not really used in the version discussed most in this forum, it is used in the Beck//Call combo list with cloudstone curio. On the other hand, Chameleon Colossus and to some extent, Thrun the Last troll are often used in the sideboard of this deck as they both get around very popular removal in the format.
Edit: spelling
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
And don't forget with the Colossus, if our opponent is playing Living End and you have 0 or just 1 Lord, you can activate it for 0, let your creatures die in response to the Living End and bring them back just like your opponent brings back his creatures But does not work if you have 2 Lords on the battlefield.
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
1. Very good question! I ran essentially 7 black sources for Shaman of the Pack, which typically if I want to start casting it from hand I feel like I wanted to start doing so around turn 5. With 7 sources I had about an 80% chance of having the black source I needed to cast the Shaman, but this formula doesn't account for the chance of me actually having a Shaman in hand. There is just under a 50% chance of me having a Shaman of the Pack in my hand by turn 5 with the 3 copies I ran. Thus, in the 20% of games that I did not have a black source, only half of those did I actually have a Shaman in hand that I could not cast. This equates to about 90% of games being where I either do have a black source, or I do not have a Shaman in hand.
One other reason for only 3 Gilt-Leaf Palace is that my sideboard is primarily white. If I wanted a 4th, I would most likely have to cut a Razorverge Thicket and would have lowered my chances of playing the sideboard cards I drew. If I decided on running the 4th Shaman of the Pack I would most likely run the 4th Gilt-Leaf and try to trim the white in the sideboard.
2. I decided I wanted to run a removal spell in my sideboard. I chose Dismember based on looking for the best card that met what I was looking for between cost, downsides, and situations where it can or needs to be used. The main contenders were Path to Exile, Dismember, and Gut Shot. The main situations where I like removal spells are for removing an infect creature, a dork in the mirror, and killing creatures that cause us continuous trouble such as Kalitas, Izzet Staticaster, or Olivia Voldaren.
Path to Exile although only 1 mana, it requires white mana which can be a little more difficult to cast at times. Its downside is that it gives my opponent a land, but since I am a ramp deck this usually isn't too bad. However, this ramping does make casting it early in the game extremely dangerous. It is more versatile in removal than most spells, but having such a harsh downside in the early game against an opposing infect creature or dork in the mirror can cause a lot of problems.
Dismember can be as little as 1 mana, and that mana is colorless. Its downside is usually (honestly almost always) paying 4 life to kill something. Against infect life is usually not relevant. Against the mirror speed is everything and spending one mana to kill a turn 1 dork or turn 2 Archdruid can be back-breaking. Other big threats like Kalitas would make our lives miserable and deal much more damage than the 4 we are paying so I don't usually see it as a huge detriment. Dismember will kill the majority of creatures that we need it to.
Gut Shot is always paying 2 life. This is very convenient in being able to cast it alongside a turn 1 dork to kill your opponents Glistener Elf or dork. The biggest issue is that infect could potentially decide that it is worth saving the creature and spending a buff spell such as Mutagenic Growth on it. It easily kills a turn 1 dork, but an Archdruid or Kalitas are going to stick around and cause us troubles.
After taking this into account I thought Dismember was the most reliable card for me to play.
-Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
Thanks Feinunze!
Mark of Asylum didn't have a lot of use against the decks I faced except Affinity and Jund. Mark is best against repeatable damage from things like Ghirapur Æther Grid and Izzet Staticaster in addition to bolts and Anger/Pyroclasm. I'll be playtesting soon whether spot removal for the repeatable offenders and having a Selfless Spirit in the main and/or board is sufficient for sweepers. The toughest question will be on protecting Aven Mindcensor against Valakut decks. I would probably run Stain the Mind before I ran Thoughtseize.
-Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
Against other matchups I usually board out Visionary first and then I start to consider boarding out other cards including Shaman.
Oh yes right, sorry about the Chameleon Colossus, of course I meant Mirror Entity
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
Yeap, I do. More accurately, I remove creatures of the same CMC as far as possible. So against affinity, 1 visionary would make way for 1 kataki. 1 Shaman becomes a Rec sage. Against infect, skite and melira replace 2 visionaries while elvish champion replaces a shaman.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk