I am happy with the GW Lead/Messenger deck. It is very resiliant to removal, more so then any other version. We sacrifice some instant win conditions like Shaman of the Pack and Chord for a little bit more redundancy and Card Advantage.
I found a couple things to be true. Despite the fact that we generate can generate a lot of mana, a lot of that is contingent on having the correct board state with Archdruid/Nykthos because Heritage Druid at least from what I have experienced is really good at getting you 3 mana, but isn't so great at generating large amounts of mana at one time which can be important for Ezuri or chaining Sylvan Messengers/Lead the Stampede/Collected Company. This was particular relevant that I run 18 Lands and they had removal for creatures. I could be stuck with Leads/Messengers/Company/Ezuri/Archdruid in my hands with not a lot of ways to get it on the field when I want to race. I do think 2 Nykthos is correct. I think anymore then 2 will see a sharp rise of drawing both.
I do think that once we get the engine going, we are very difficult to over come or stop as we can just keep digging for the pieces we need to win. We can be stopped and that engine slowed enough for Combo to win. We need in our hands enough 1 or 2 turn plays to keep casting elves to put pressure. You may need to mulligan if you don't have a lot of reduncy in your opening plays. I kept some shady hands with Messenger/Company that maybe I shouldn't have because I could have curved out well without removal.
I feel though that I need more white sources to run the better hate cards. Rest in Peace would be so good against certain decks that I feel that I need to run as white and deliberating on fetches for a Temple Garden, but ultimately seeing burn in action. I wouldn't risk it on the whole. We need to not kill ourselves against them and Horizon Canopy/Razorverge Thicket should be enough white sources for Rest in Peace against Goryo's Vengence and other Gravehard decks like Grixis, Knightfall (to some extent), and others.
Against Burn, I don't fear Grim Lavamancer as much as I used to. It is a really really good against us, but isn't unbeatable. We have more creature and gas, so we should be able to just beat it. I fear Eidolon of the Great Revel far more on Turn 2 then a Grim Lavamancer on Turn 1. We can go off far faster than Grim Lavamancer can deal with us.
I really really dislike Goryo's Vengence Decks. I maybe a bit salty, but screw that combo. You should be able to get Emrakaul on Turn 3 when he had the play. It is just too much. No, just no. However, it could be that I didn't play Rest in Peace, but I don't think there is much we can do against this other then play rest in peace then not go explosive until we can deal with Anger of the Gods and other board wipes.
With a GB list, it might be prudent to have Leyline of the Void in your sideboard. It will be fantastic against decks like Grixis, Jund, Bubblehulk, Living End, Goryo's Vengence Decks, decks that can use Baby Jace/Graveyard shenanigans/Koligans Command/Grim Lavamancer/:ingering Souls, Knightfall for Knight-counters, Azban Company
Hey, I'm newer to the Modern scene and have been loving Elves so far! I'm running just Gb for now, since I'm fairly budget (no Horizon Canopies, rolling with only one Cavern for now).
I have 2 Living End decks I frequently see and I'm struggling in the matchup. I don't really know how to beat it without white for something like Rest in Peace. They can just wipe my board so easily and just get bigger and better dudes than me even if I can retain a decent board. Is this a tough matchup, or am I just bad at it/unlucky? Right now all I really bring in is 1 Scavenging Ooze. Anybody have tips for the matchup, about cards I could try and sideboard in just GB? The Chalice discussion is interesting, but I'm not entirely convinced on that front yet.
G1 you shouldn't over commit to the board. I try to hit 4 (open) mana before they can go off, to threaten a CoCo after Living End has resolved (this works best if you can actually CoCo and not only threaten it). Appy enough pressure to that they have to go off before there GY is overly filled. Chances are there as well that you can simply recover after a resolved LE. I've been LE'ed more then once, and been able to recover and overrun for lethal before I was dead myself.
G2 you can bring in either Tajuru Preserver or Viscera Seer as a silver bullet target. Both tend to do the same thing, but Tajuru preserver has some other small utility as well.
I know you said you're running GB, and this has probably been mentioned pages back, but anyone running GW with Mirror Entity can activate it for 0 in response to Living End as long as they don't have more than one lord in play.
Hey y'all, I'm new to Modern, and have been running Gb Elves since I started about a week ago. Had a couple of questions based on my experience and what I've read here:
1. Why is it that Lead and Messanger are always considered in tandem? I don't get why running one sorcery-speed hand filler necessitates or improves the other.
2. Don't we run a great Blood Moon shell aside from the fact that we don't run red?
3. One thing I've been having trouble with in-game is deciding when to swing and when to hold my dudes up for Company/Chord mana/convoke. Say I've got a Nettle, H Druid, Llanowar online and two untapped Forests on an empty board, 20 life each, Chord and CoCo in hand. Under what circumstances do I swing, and when do I hold back for mana? Or, say they're UR and are tapped out- do I take the opportunity to CoCo on my turn, or swing and hold back in case of Pyroclasm/Anger/making them waste a Bolt on a dork?
I know this is vague and open-ended, but these sorts of decisions are what drew me to the deck, and I'm a long way from understanding them fully.
3. One thing I've been having trouble with in-game is deciding when to swing and when to hold my dudes up for Company/Chord mana/convoke. Say I've got a Nettle, H Druid, Llanowar online and two untapped Forests on an empty board, 20 life each, Chord and CoCo in hand. Under what circumstances do I swing, and when do I hold back for mana? Or, say they're UR and are tapped out- do I take the opportunity to CoCo on my turn, or swing and hold back in case of Pyroclasm/Anger/making them waste a Bolt on a dork?
I know this is vague and open-ended, but these sorts of decisions are what drew me to the deck, and I'm a long way from understanding them fully.
3. This is really a matter of context, and how well you are able to place your opponents deck and deduce the type of spells they have in hand based on their plays. For instance if a UR player goes out of their way to get untapped red mana, or doesn't do anything for the first 2 turns (no cantrips, etc); then they are likely holding a removal spell or remand. If they don't EOT kill your H druid then they likely don't have a bolt. If you can catch them fetching at end of turn then take advantage with CoCo. Is the opponent on Twin? Delver? Storm? Did they tap out for cantrips or something else (baby jace)?
Keep asking yourself what information their plays give you, and play around what you can.
In that specific example you give I am almost always not swinging in. If they are at 20 life then it means you were not getting in your chip shots in for whatever reason, and unless those reasons have changed then swinging now wouldn't do much. Since all of your creatures need to be untapped to get to 4+ mana, you provide yourself more options by leveraging the powerful instants in hand.
Edit: Also I don't think many opponents realize how weak these GW and GB shells are to Blood Moon. 4-ish basics that can't be searched, and multiple double green spells? GG. Not to say that people will side them in against us, but the weakness is there nonetheless.
It really depends on what you want to do if you run both. I am running 6 fill your hand cards, because they act like a mini-Elf Storm. You can chain them with the Elves or Creatures you get to restock after boardwipes or attrition based control strategies like Jund/Grixis. Essentially, they can allow you to reset the game. Alongside horizon canopies for GW and Elvish Visionary, you attempt to dig for answers like what Blue players do either for more Elves or your win-con Ezuri, Chameleon Colossus, Elvish Archdruid, Mirror Entity, Shaman of the Pack or even your hate Creature cards. By going Lead and Messenger, you are saying that a Swarm Strategy is the heart of your deck with some fancy Ezuri based win-conditions. IT is much more resiliant to spot removal if not as consistent in finding your win condition or creature hate card.
Chord Decks don't have a lot of ways to restock after a board wipe or enough spot removal save for Collected Company which might not be enough. I do.
Also, keep in mind, that the Lead/Messenger deck is simpler with less decision making and less toolkit approach. You are going to do your thing with less thought of what your opponent is going to do. Your sideboard is going to be more generalized with multiples of whatever card your choosing to handle the threats you see. Fringe-threats aren't going to be really considered for example. My sideboard currently looks like 3x Kataki, 3x Spellskite, 2x Burrenton Forge-Tender, 2x Essence Warden, 1x Dismember, 2x Chameleon Colossus, 2x Relic of Progenitus. I am waiting to get Horizon Canopy so I can put Rest in Peace back into myside board as a probably 3 of as graveyard strategies really do kill us. I may forgo the Essence Warden entirely for 3x Burrenton Forge-Tenders or 2x of them and a Dwynen just to handle the Burn matchup which isn't bad, but isn't great either.
Hey y'all, I'm new to Modern, and have been running Gb Elves since I started about a week ago. Had a couple of questions based on my experience and what I've read here:
1. Why is it that Lead and Messanger are always considered in tandem? I don't get why running one sorcery-speed hand filler necessitates or improves the other.
2. Don't we run a great Blood Moon shell aside from the fact that we don't run red?
3. One thing I've been having trouble with in-game is deciding when to swing and when to hold my dudes up for Company/Chord mana/convoke. Say I've got a Nettle, H Druid, Llanowar online and two untapped Forests on an empty board, 20 life each, Chord and CoCo in hand. Under what circumstances do I swing, and when do I hold back for mana? Or, say they're UR and are tapped out- do I take the opportunity to CoCo on my turn, or swing and hold back in case of Pyroclasm/Anger/making them waste a Bolt on a dork?
I know this is vague and open-ended, but these sorts of decisions are what drew me to the deck, and I'm a long way from understanding them fully.
1. It comes down to personal preference. I run both because of high creature density (34) and I don't rely on Chord as much which is why I swapped two Chords for two Leads. If you check various deck results posts and analysis, there are a couple core cards such as Heritage Druid, Archdruid, Llanowar/Mystic but everything else is up to you. Experiment, see how your meta reacts to your choices and adjust accordingly.
2. MrBurp explained it. We'd have to sacrifice 4 slots to run a playset of Blood Moon. Magus on the other hand is prone to removal via Pyroclasm, not an Elf etc.
3. As you play the deck more you'll see what lines of play are best to take against specific decks. Sometimes being aggressive is the way to go, another time it might be worth playing a bit slower to recover after a wipe. It also depends on whether you're running Messenger/Lead. You can be more aggressive with those since you have a way to refill your hand.
Both Athreos and Chalice might be too cute, but they're fun as hell so I'm giving them a try. I originally started at 6 fetches but found that the mana was in fact 'too' good - ended up paying a lot of life and never once was even close to having an issue with color fixing. Cut down to 5 and added another horizon canopy (just to make it easier to find win cons/business).
Am most happy with how the maindeck has minimized some of abzan's clunkiness. Curve is smooth. Also, the singleton copperhorn scout carries some of the best 'fast' gears of the GW build over - leaves the deck with A LOT of play and some surprising damage output. Its unbelievable when you get to swing with the whole team and simultaneously chord for a shaman in the same turn. Also sets up more Ezuri alpha strikes.
I would be interested in the Abzan version especially with a possible lead/messenger. I like the resiliancy that Lead/Messengers provide on the whole. My question on the whole is about Burn or other damage to the face matchups.
I have played against Burn a decent number of times with Elves of either Chord or Lead/Messenger versions. I find this match up unlike other difficult ones to be highly grindy and dependent on a lot of factors. One of them was that our mana base didn't hurt us much. How do you think a fetch/shock land base will affect us in this match up specifically and are you accepting that our Burn match up is worse to provide better answers for other decks?
I think it is a strenght of either version, but especially of the GW version to avoid self-damage against burn and other similiar matchups? Obviously there are matchups in control that mean this is irrelevant, but against most faster decks like Affinity, certain Zoo's, Burn. I think this becomes a liability and that the weaknesses to Control/Combo decks can be shorn up in other ways.
What matchups do you think Abzan Elves are superior to GW Chord Elves, GW Lead/Messenger Elves, GB Chord Elves, GB Lead/Messenger Elves, or hybrid versions of these?
To be fair, if it works, I love the list as a hybrid of everything and all our work.
Both Athreos and Chalice might be too cute, but they're fun as hell so I'm giving them a try. I originally started at 6 fetches but found that the mana was in fact 'too' good - ended up paying a lot of life and never once was even close to having an issue with color fixing. Cut down to 5 and added another horizon canopy (just to make it easier to find win cons/business).
Am most happy with how the maindeck has minimized some of abzan's clunkiness. Curve is smooth. Also, the singleton copperhorn scout carries some of the best 'fast' gears of the GW build over - leaves the deck with A LOT of play and some surprising damage output. Its unbelievable when you get to swing with the whole team and simultaneously chord for a shaman in the same turn. Also sets up more Ezuri alpha strikes.
Your MD is very close to what I have been running (like scary close). I don't run the Copperhorn and have the 4th Nettle. My mana base has 6 fetches, 2 Overgrown Tombs, 4 forests, and a single Nykthos instead of 2 Horizon Canopy.
Mana is very good as you say, but painful. You have to concede that your burn matchup is weaker. Zoo sort of equalizes since you have better racing potential with SotP.
My sideboard is a similar, yet personal choice spread of bullet targets.
Overall I like the versatility 3 colors gives you for SB choices.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
What matchups do you think Abzan Elves are superior to GW Chord Elves, GW Lead/Messenger Elves, GB Chord Elves, GB Lead/Messenger Elves, or hybrid versions of these?
To be fair, if it works, I love the list as a hybrid of everything and all our work.
Just wanted to echo this, hoping the better players here can give us insight into how our MU expectations vary between builds. Also wondering if the deck-thinning aspect of running fetches significant with regard to our CoCo/Lead/Messanger digs?
I would be interested in the Abzan version especially with a possible lead/messenger. I like the resiliancy that Lead/Messengers provide on the whole. My question on the whole is about Burn or other damage to the face matchups.
I have played against Burn a decent number of times with Elves of either Chord or Lead/Messenger versions. I find this match up unlike other difficult ones to be highly grindy and dependent on a lot of factors. One of them was that our mana base didn't hurt us much. How do you think a fetch/shock land base will affect us in this match up specifically and are you accepting that our Burn match up is worse to provide better answers for other decks?
I think it is a strenght of either version, but especially of the GW version to avoid self-damage against burn and other similiar matchups? Obviously there are matchups in control that mean this is irrelevant, but against most faster decks like Affinity, certain Zoo's, Burn. I think this becomes a liability and that the weaknesses to Control/Combo decks can be shorn up in other ways.
What matchups do you think Abzan Elves are superior to GW Chord Elves, GW Lead/Messenger Elves, GB Chord Elves, GB Lead/Messenger Elves, or hybrid versions of these?
To be fair, if it works, I love the list as a hybrid of everything and all our work.
There is no burn or affinity in my meta (yet) so i'm not concerned for now.
My current meta is
2 Twin players (1 RUG version)
Jund
Infect
Zoo
Ad Nauseum
Goblins
And another elf player (mono)
The main silver bullet i'd want to use white for is pyroclasm. Thoughtsieze could theoretically do the same thing but takes up more slots not being a creature card and I already have 3 abrupt decay in the board.
Now that I think about it more I don't think splashing white would help vs many of these decks.
With Abzan variants popping up I think Athreos is a valid option to deal with spot removal. Perhaps running one or two in sideboard along with Chord to tutor for if necessary or simply hardcast him if possible. 1 more mana compared to Prowess of the Fair but much harder to remove and can be helpful when wrath hits. It can also be hit via CoCo and Lead the Stampede.
Both Athreos and Chalice might be too cute, but they're fun as hell so I'm giving them a try. I originally started at 6 fetches but found that the mana was in fact 'too' good - ended up paying a lot of life and never once was even close to having an issue with color fixing. Cut down to 5 and added another horizon canopy (just to make it easier to find win cons/business).
Am most happy with how the maindeck has minimized some of abzan's clunkiness. Curve is smooth. Also, the singleton copperhorn scout carries some of the best 'fast' gears of the GW build over - leaves the deck with A LOT of play and some surprising damage output. Its unbelievable when you get to swing with the whole team and simultaneously chord for a shaman in the same turn. Also sets up more Ezuri alpha strikes.
I like this deck config alot! Please let us know how it runs
Only problem I hit is twin as a g/b elves typical deck. Had lead in sb vs grixis twin and got rekt. I didn't misplay any lines. Just got outworked. He was on a 2 remand 2 leak 1 dispel package and just had right stuff in hand when needed. I talked him through plays to help him learn the match up as we went (friend of mine). I feel that the tool box approach to the meta isn't as good as I thought so I'm going to adapt that first place rptq list from earlier that is white heavy board to my meta and try it. Unfortunately I play Thursday so turkey day blocks next week's modern.
Hi guys, been a week since my last match report, Modern FNM, 14 people.
Managed to pick up foil Nettles and Foil Heritage Druids so that's always a plus! Just short the Dwynen's Elite , Ezuri and Mirror Entity to get all the Elves foiled, and then a bunch of lands and spells...
Match 1: Jund
G1: I was on the play and managed to curve out, and he curved out with removal spells in response (Bolt->Terminate->Lili). Two discarded Company, and a resolved one getting Sentinel + Champion after he enters top deck mode.
G2: I mull to 5 having 2 no landers in a row. (Hand was Forest - Nykthos - Heritage - Company - Lead). He seizes Company out of my hand and my t3 lead hits 5 (!!!!!) dudes (Heritage - Archdruid - Ezuri - Champion - Llanowar). I develop my board through some removal and get to a point where I present lethal if I manage to untap for the next turn. He promptly kills me on the turn he has.
G3: T1 Heritage, T2 Dwynen's Elite into Champion, T3 More dudes. Basically, I throw my hand onto the battlefield as I see he's stuck on only G/B mana. I promptly kill him before he can draw out of it.
Match 2: Grixis Twin
G1: My hand explodes onto the field with the same combination of T1 Heritage, T2 Dwynen's. I put him in a situation where he basically has to go off with Twin, and I have the Chord to end the game.
G2: My notepad says "6 Kommands cast + a Twinned Snapcaster"
G3: I get him to 1 after a long grind, he finally gets unmanascrewed and casts a Languish, he takes control over from there with a Twinned Snapcaster.
Match 3: Skred Red
G1: He trades removal for elves, but no Anger or big drop means I eventually end the game due to my superior card advantage engine in Company
G2: I have him on the ropes, presenting lethal next turn. He rips a Demigod from the top and plays it, getting back his other Demigod and flying in for exactly lethal.
G3: Multiple Companies and BFT make the game an absolute mess for him and I kill him.
Match 4: Izzet Twin [+G for SB]
G1: The gamestate develops awkwardly for me after getting a few early dudes removed, and I find myself stuck holding a Chord knowing that he probably has a Twin. I misplay heavily, playing a Dwynen's into a Remand and not leaving myself enough mana/dudes to Chord (I pooped the math, and forgetting Remand was a complete brainfart) for Skite and he gets there.
G2: A big grind where I resolve two Companies after having my board emptied, and I flip Ezuri + Scout on the first flip at the end of his turn (Archdruid + Nettle second on my main) and I kill him with a double overrun after using the mana I had from untapping my four attacking Elves to pay for Nykthos.
G3: Mirror Entity resolves alongside a Burrenton Forge-Tender, and he attempts to Lavamancer the Mirror Entity, and I respond by tapping my 2 Heritage Druids + Entity to make everyone a 3/3, then he attempts to Anger which I sac BFT for. Following turn I make the 3 5/5's and attack for lethal.
Still very happy with the GW Chord list. The Leads in the board do a lot of work, alongside the 4 Canopies. Only changes I'm making this week is -1 Revoker, +1 BFT.
RE: Golgari Charm
It seems like an interesting option, but I'm more inclined to like its applications against decks like BW Tokens and the Mirror, as opposed to board wipe recovery.
Hi guys, been a week since my last match report, Modern FNM, 14 people.
Managed to pick up foil Nettles and Foil Heritage Druids so that's always a plus! Just short the Dwynen's Elite , Ezuri and Mirror Entity to get all the Elves foiled, and then a bunch of lands and spells...
Just wanted to echo this, hoping the better players here can give us insight into how our MU expectations vary between builds. Also wondering if the deck-thinning aspect of running fetches significant with regard to our CoCo/Lead/Messanger digs?
I think the general synopsis is that Chord = aggro/combo, Lead = midrange/grindy matchups. As for which second colour (or having both), I'm still firmly in the personal preference camp. Horizon Canopy is a huge boon to the GW cause.
As for the fetch math:
Check the spoiler below to see how far I got before I realised I was way too out of depth/had no time for this sort of mathematics. Someone that isn't an arts student/is capable please do the math. I know it probably is a percent or two at most, even at 4 fetches but I digress.
We need to draw several assumptions in order to try and mathematically figure out some stuff.
Foremost:
Assumption A: I am not a great mathematician.
Assumption B: We are using a list with 19 land (19/60), and statistically speaking we generally have two lands per opener, leaving us with 17 lands left in the deck. (17/53)
Assumption C: We have 8 spells in the deck, which can't be hit by Collected Company/Lead. (8/60)
Assumption D: We are assuming we only have 1 copy of the respective spell being tested, with the other 7 spells in the deck still remaining.
Assumption E: We have not drawn any non-fetch lands every time we play a fetch.
Assumption F: Thereby, the chances of us hitting a non-Coco target, after the following assumptions have been processed are (24/53)
With that in mind:
1 fetch (23/52): 0.442
2 fetch (22/51): 0.431
3 fetch (21/50): 0.420
4 fetch (20/49): 0.408
Collected Company:
1 fetch: 0.442 x 0.442 x 0.442 x 0.442 x 0.442 x 0.442 (?)
2 fetch: 0.431 x 0.431 x 0.431 x 0.431 x 0.431 x 0.431 (?)
3 fetch: 0.420 x 0.420 x 0.420 x 0.420 x 0.420 x 0.420 (????)
4 fetch: 0.408 x 0.408 x 0.408 x 0.408 x 0.408 x 0.408 (?)
Could someone actually decent at statistics do the fetch math.
Just wanted to echo this, hoping the better players here can give us insight into how our MU expectations vary between builds. Also wondering if the deck-thinning aspect of running fetches significant with regard to our CoCo/Lead/Messanger digs?
I think the general synopsis is that Chord = aggro/combo, Lead = midrange/grindy matchups. As for which second colour (or having both), I'm still firmly in the personal preference camp. Horizon Canopy is a huge boon to the GW cause.
As for the fetch math:
Check the spoiler below to see how far I got before I realised I was way too out of depth/had no time for this sort of mathematics. Someone that isn't an arts student/is capable please do the math. I know it probably is a percent or two at most, even at 4 fetches but I digress.
We need to draw several assumptions in order to try and mathematically figure out some stuff.
Foremost:
Assumption A: I am not a great mathematician.
Assumption B: We are using a list with 19 land (19/60), and statistically speaking we generally have two lands per opener, leaving us with 17 lands left in the deck. (17/53)
Assumption C: We have 8 spells in the deck, which can't be hit by Collected Company/Lead. (8/60)
Assumption D: We are assuming we only have 1 copy of the respective spell being tested, with the other 7 spells in the deck still remaining.
Assumption E: We have not drawn any non-fetch lands every time we play a fetch.
Assumption F: Thereby, the chances of us hitting a non-Coco target, after the following assumptions have been processed are (24/53)
With that in mind:
1 fetch (23/52): 0.442
2 fetch (22/51): 0.431
3 fetch (21/50): 0.420
4 fetch (20/49): 0.408
Collected Company:
1 fetch: 0.442 x 0.442 x 0.442 x 0.442 x 0.442 x 0.442 (?)
2 fetch: 0.431 x 0.431 x 0.431 x 0.431 x 0.431 x 0.431 (?)
3 fetch: 0.420 x 0.420 x 0.420 x 0.420 x 0.420 x 0.420 (????)
4 fetch: 0.408 x 0.408 x 0.408 x 0.408 x 0.408 x 0.408 (?)
Could someone actually decent at statistics do the fetch math.
Any advantage gained by thinning out your deck with fetches is certainly counteracted by reshuffling unwanted cards back into the top portion of your deck. Each time you CoCo or Lead you are increasing the density of creatures available in the top half of the deck.
Regardless of the specifics, you are correct that it is at most a couple of percent either way, and the chance that it will perceivable alter the outcome of a game is even less than that (ie. you were already winning or losing so getting that thin percentage boost didn't actually do anything).
Not to mention the functional benefits of fetches as a form of mana fixing.
Basically, while the math may be useful in a academic sense, the variables become too complex to model for any practical application.
Also I wanted to clarify that Abzan versions of elves are not superior to the GW or GB shells in any one matchup, however the flexibility in answers gives is more game against a predictable field. You are moving from more extreme versions to a conservative middle ground (which I personally prefer).
Again it comes down to playstyle preference and the sets of decks you are playing against. This continues to confirm that the strengths of these different builds we are discussing (sana the core) is relative. Evidence being that we are not seeing a consistent winning performance by any particular shell.
Without new tech we are really just spinning our wheels and discussing specifics of our own personal experience (which is fine).
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Only problem I hit is twin as a g/b elves typical deck. Had lead in sb vs grixis twin and got rekt. I didn't misplay any lines. Just got outworked. He was on a 2 remand 2 leak 1 dispel package and just had right stuff in hand when needed. I talked him through plays to help him learn the match up as we went (friend of mine). I feel that the tool box approach to the meta isn't as good as I thought so I'm going to adapt that first place rptq list from earlier that is white heavy board to my meta and try it. Unfortunately I play Thursday so turkey day blocks next week's modern.
It depends on your meta, but generally Twin lists have a great grind-factor to them that makes it hard for you to apply pressure (Grixis has Kologhan's Command, Terminate and Bolt, while the straight Izzet lists have Electrolyze, Bolt and tech like Twisted Image plus the main deck Dispel.) With that in mind, bringing in Lead while shaving Elves (I tend to shave Dwynen's as their extra body rarely seems relevant in that matchup) seems perfectly fine as a Chord list, as you have the grind factor from Lead, while Chord still remains very much relevant in the matchup. Not to mention, if they are running the main deck Dispel (in either variant), Lead plays around that and occasionally finds the Skites you need.
RE: wushambudo
Your opponent's list seems strange (2 Leaks vs having 4 Remand), but Caverns generally make or break that matchup when trying to resolve threats. Also, playing a little more defensively is advised against Twin as even a 6-7 turn clock on them will make them feel pressured. Holding up Chords and the like are definitely advised, and bluffing them on Chords helps make them feel they can't combo off. I've definitely won games against Twin on the back of bluffing a Chord for 2.
I found a couple things to be true. Despite the fact that we generate can generate a lot of mana, a lot of that is contingent on having the correct board state with Archdruid/Nykthos because Heritage Druid at least from what I have experienced is really good at getting you 3 mana, but isn't so great at generating large amounts of mana at one time which can be important for Ezuri or chaining Sylvan Messengers/Lead the Stampede/Collected Company. This was particular relevant that I run 18 Lands and they had removal for creatures. I could be stuck with Leads/Messengers/Company/Ezuri/Archdruid in my hands with not a lot of ways to get it on the field when I want to race. I do think 2 Nykthos is correct. I think anymore then 2 will see a sharp rise of drawing both.
I do think that once we get the engine going, we are very difficult to over come or stop as we can just keep digging for the pieces we need to win. We can be stopped and that engine slowed enough for Combo to win. We need in our hands enough 1 or 2 turn plays to keep casting elves to put pressure. You may need to mulligan if you don't have a lot of reduncy in your opening plays. I kept some shady hands with Messenger/Company that maybe I shouldn't have because I could have curved out well without removal.
I feel though that I need more white sources to run the better hate cards. Rest in Peace would be so good against certain decks that I feel that I need to run as white and deliberating on fetches for a Temple Garden, but ultimately seeing burn in action. I wouldn't risk it on the whole. We need to not kill ourselves against them and Horizon Canopy/Razorverge Thicket should be enough white sources for Rest in Peace against Goryo's Vengence and other Gravehard decks like Grixis, Knightfall (to some extent), and others.
Against Burn, I don't fear Grim Lavamancer as much as I used to. It is a really really good against us, but isn't unbeatable. We have more creature and gas, so we should be able to just beat it. I fear Eidolon of the Great Revel far more on Turn 2 then a Grim Lavamancer on Turn 1. We can go off far faster than Grim Lavamancer can deal with us.
I really really dislike Goryo's Vengence Decks. I maybe a bit salty, but screw that combo. You should be able to get Emrakaul on Turn 3 when he had the play. It is just too much. No, just no. However, it could be that I didn't play Rest in Peace, but I don't think there is much we can do against this other then play rest in peace then not go explosive until we can deal with Anger of the Gods and other board wipes.
I know you said you're running GB, and this has probably been mentioned pages back, but anyone running GW with Mirror Entity can activate it for 0 in response to Living End as long as they don't have more than one lord in play.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
Looking forward to the sad puppy dog face when my opponents draw a snapcaster mage.
1. Why is it that Lead and Messanger are always considered in tandem? I don't get why running one sorcery-speed hand filler necessitates or improves the other.
2. Don't we run a great Blood Moon shell aside from the fact that we don't run red?
3. One thing I've been having trouble with in-game is deciding when to swing and when to hold my dudes up for Company/Chord mana/convoke. Say I've got a Nettle, H Druid, Llanowar online and two untapped Forests on an empty board, 20 life each, Chord and CoCo in hand. Under what circumstances do I swing, and when do I hold back for mana? Or, say they're UR and are tapped out- do I take the opportunity to CoCo on my turn, or swing and hold back in case of Pyroclasm/Anger/making them waste a Bolt on a dork?
I know this is vague and open-ended, but these sorts of decisions are what drew me to the deck, and I'm a long way from understanding them fully.
3. This is really a matter of context, and how well you are able to place your opponents deck and deduce the type of spells they have in hand based on their plays. For instance if a UR player goes out of their way to get untapped red mana, or doesn't do anything for the first 2 turns (no cantrips, etc); then they are likely holding a removal spell or remand. If they don't EOT kill your H druid then they likely don't have a bolt. If you can catch them fetching at end of turn then take advantage with CoCo. Is the opponent on Twin? Delver? Storm? Did they tap out for cantrips or something else (baby jace)?
Keep asking yourself what information their plays give you, and play around what you can.
In that specific example you give I am almost always not swinging in. If they are at 20 life then it means you were not getting in your chip shots in for whatever reason, and unless those reasons have changed then swinging now wouldn't do much. Since all of your creatures need to be untapped to get to 4+ mana, you provide yourself more options by leveraging the powerful instants in hand.
Edit: Also I don't think many opponents realize how weak these GW and GB shells are to Blood Moon. 4-ish basics that can't be searched, and multiple double green spells? GG. Not to say that people will side them in against us, but the weakness is there nonetheless.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)It really depends on what you want to do if you run both. I am running 6 fill your hand cards, because they act like a mini-Elf Storm. You can chain them with the Elves or Creatures you get to restock after boardwipes or attrition based control strategies like Jund/Grixis. Essentially, they can allow you to reset the game. Alongside horizon canopies for GW and Elvish Visionary, you attempt to dig for answers like what Blue players do either for more Elves or your win-con Ezuri, Chameleon Colossus, Elvish Archdruid, Mirror Entity, Shaman of the Pack or even your hate Creature cards. By going Lead and Messenger, you are saying that a Swarm Strategy is the heart of your deck with some fancy Ezuri based win-conditions. IT is much more resiliant to spot removal if not as consistent in finding your win condition or creature hate card.
Chord Decks don't have a lot of ways to restock after a board wipe or enough spot removal save for Collected Company which might not be enough. I do.
Also, keep in mind, that the Lead/Messenger deck is simpler with less decision making and less toolkit approach. You are going to do your thing with less thought of what your opponent is going to do. Your sideboard is going to be more generalized with multiples of whatever card your choosing to handle the threats you see. Fringe-threats aren't going to be really considered for example. My sideboard currently looks like 3x Kataki, 3x Spellskite, 2x Burrenton Forge-Tender, 2x Essence Warden, 1x Dismember, 2x Chameleon Colossus, 2x Relic of Progenitus. I am waiting to get Horizon Canopy so I can put Rest in Peace back into myside board as a probably 3 of as graveyard strategies really do kill us. I may forgo the Essence Warden entirely for 3x Burrenton Forge-Tenders or 2x of them and a Dwynen just to handle the Burn matchup which isn't bad, but isn't great either.
1. It comes down to personal preference. I run both because of high creature density (34) and I don't rely on Chord as much which is why I swapped two Chords for two Leads. If you check various deck results posts and analysis, there are a couple core cards such as Heritage Druid, Archdruid, Llanowar/Mystic but everything else is up to you. Experiment, see how your meta reacts to your choices and adjust accordingly.
2. MrBurp explained it. We'd have to sacrifice 4 slots to run a playset of Blood Moon. Magus on the other hand is prone to removal via Pyroclasm, not an Elf etc.
3. As you play the deck more you'll see what lines of play are best to take against specific decks. Sometimes being aggressive is the way to go, another time it might be worth playing a bit slower to recover after a wipe. It also depends on whether you're running Messenger/Lead. You can be more aggressive with those since you have a way to refill your hand.
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
5 Forest
1 Pendelhaven
4 Collected Company
4 Chord of Calling
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Heritage Druid
1 Copperhorn Scout
3 Nettle Sentinel
1 Spellskite
3 Elvish Visionary
4 Dwynen's Elite
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Shaman of the Pack
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
3 Lead the Stampede
1 Rest in Peace
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Essence Warden
1 Spellskite
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Athreos, God of Passage
1 Chameleon Colossus
Curve:
0: 19
1: 16
2: 8
3: 9
4+: 8
Both Athreos and Chalice might be too cute, but they're fun as hell so I'm giving them a try. I originally started at 6 fetches but found that the mana was in fact 'too' good - ended up paying a lot of life and never once was even close to having an issue with color fixing. Cut down to 5 and added another horizon canopy (just to make it easier to find win cons/business).
Am most happy with how the maindeck has minimized some of abzan's clunkiness. Curve is smooth. Also, the singleton copperhorn scout carries some of the best 'fast' gears of the GW build over - leaves the deck with A LOT of play and some surprising damage output. Its unbelievable when you get to swing with the whole team and simultaneously chord for a shaman in the same turn. Also sets up more Ezuri alpha strikes.
What do people think about switching to a fetch heavy manabase to splash for white/red SB cards.
I have played against Burn a decent number of times with Elves of either Chord or Lead/Messenger versions. I find this match up unlike other difficult ones to be highly grindy and dependent on a lot of factors. One of them was that our mana base didn't hurt us much. How do you think a fetch/shock land base will affect us in this match up specifically and are you accepting that our Burn match up is worse to provide better answers for other decks?
I think it is a strenght of either version, but especially of the GW version to avoid self-damage against burn and other similiar matchups? Obviously there are matchups in control that mean this is irrelevant, but against most faster decks like Affinity, certain Zoo's, Burn. I think this becomes a liability and that the weaknesses to Control/Combo decks can be shorn up in other ways.
What matchups do you think Abzan Elves are superior to GW Chord Elves, GW Lead/Messenger Elves, GB Chord Elves, GB Lead/Messenger Elves, or hybrid versions of these?
To be fair, if it works, I love the list as a hybrid of everything and all our work.
Your MD is very close to what I have been running (like scary close). I don't run the Copperhorn and have the 4th Nettle. My mana base has 6 fetches, 2 Overgrown Tombs, 4 forests, and a single Nykthos instead of 2 Horizon Canopy.
Mana is very good as you say, but painful. You have to concede that your burn matchup is weaker. Zoo sort of equalizes since you have better racing potential with SotP.
My sideboard is a similar, yet personal choice spread of bullet targets.
Overall I like the versatility 3 colors gives you for SB choices.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Just wanted to echo this, hoping the better players here can give us insight into how our MU expectations vary between builds. Also wondering if the deck-thinning aspect of running fetches significant with regard to our CoCo/Lead/Messanger digs?
There is no burn or affinity in my meta (yet) so i'm not concerned for now.
My current meta is
2 Twin players (1 RUG version)
Jund
Infect
Zoo
Ad Nauseum
Goblins
And another elf player (mono)
The main silver bullet i'd want to use white for is pyroclasm. Thoughtsieze could theoretically do the same thing but takes up more slots not being a creature card and I already have 3 abrupt decay in the board.
Now that I think about it more I don't think splashing white would help vs many of these decks.
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
I like this deck config alot! Please let us know how it runs
Managed to pick up foil Nettles and Foil Heritage Druids so that's always a plus! Just short the Dwynen's Elite , Ezuri and Mirror Entity to get all the Elves foiled, and then a bunch of lands and spells...
6 Forest
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Pendelhaven
Core:
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Dwynen's Elite
4 Elvish Archdruid
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Copperhorn Scout
1 Spellskite
1 Elvish Champion
1 Mirror Entity
Spells:
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Lead the Stampede
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Rest in Peace
1 Spellskite
1 Dismember
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Fracturing Gust
Match 1: Jund
G1: I was on the play and managed to curve out, and he curved out with removal spells in response (Bolt->Terminate->Lili). Two discarded Company, and a resolved one getting Sentinel + Champion after he enters top deck mode.
G2: I mull to 5 having 2 no landers in a row. (Hand was Forest - Nykthos - Heritage - Company - Lead). He seizes Company out of my hand and my t3 lead hits 5 (!!!!!) dudes (Heritage - Archdruid - Ezuri - Champion - Llanowar). I develop my board through some removal and get to a point where I present lethal if I manage to untap for the next turn. He promptly kills me on the turn he has.
G3: T1 Heritage, T2 Dwynen's Elite into Champion, T3 More dudes. Basically, I throw my hand onto the battlefield as I see he's stuck on only G/B mana. I promptly kill him before he can draw out of it.
SB: +3 Lead, +3 Finks, +1 Colossus, +1 Dismember, -4 Chord, -1 Ezuri, -1 Spellskite, -1 Scout -1 Llanowar
2-1
1-0
Match 2: Grixis Twin
G1: My hand explodes onto the field with the same combination of T1 Heritage, T2 Dwynen's. I put him in a situation where he basically has to go off with Twin, and I have the Chord to end the game.
G2: My notepad says "6 Kommands cast + a Twinned Snapcaster"
G3: I get him to 1 after a long grind, he finally gets unmanascrewed and casts a Languish, he takes control over from there with a Twinned Snapcaster.
SB: +1 Forge-Tender, +1 Revoker, +1 Skite, +1 Dismember, -3 Dwynen's, -1 Mystic.
1-2
1-1
Match 3: Skred Red
G1: He trades removal for elves, but no Anger or big drop means I eventually end the game due to my superior card advantage engine in Company
G2: I have him on the ropes, presenting lethal next turn. He rips a Demigod from the top and plays it, getting back his other Demigod and flying in for exactly lethal.
G3: Multiple Companies and BFT make the game an absolute mess for him and I kill him.
SB: +3 Lead, +3 Finks, +1 Forge-Tender, -4 Chord, -3 Dwynen's
2-1
2-1
Match 4: Izzet Twin [+G for SB]
G1: The gamestate develops awkwardly for me after getting a few early dudes removed, and I find myself stuck holding a Chord knowing that he probably has a Twin. I misplay heavily, playing a Dwynen's into a Remand and not leaving myself enough mana/dudes to Chord (I pooped the math, and forgetting Remand was a complete brainfart) for Skite and he gets there.
G2: A big grind where I resolve two Companies after having my board emptied, and I flip Ezuri + Scout on the first flip at the end of his turn (Archdruid + Nettle second on my main) and I kill him with a double overrun after using the mana I had from untapping my four attacking Elves to pay for Nykthos.
G3: Mirror Entity resolves alongside a Burrenton Forge-Tender, and he attempts to Lavamancer the Mirror Entity, and I respond by tapping my 2 Heritage Druids + Entity to make everyone a 3/3, then he attempts to Anger which I sac BFT for. Following turn I make the 3 5/5's and attack for lethal.
SB: +3 Lead, +1 BFT, +1 Dismember, +1 Skite, -1 Mystic, -1 Llanowar, -3 Dwynen's, -1 Visionary
2-1
3-1
Still very happy with the GW Chord list. The Leads in the board do a lot of work, alongside the 4 Canopies. Only changes I'm making this week is -1 Revoker, +1 BFT.
RE: Golgari Charm
It seems like an interesting option, but I'm more inclined to like its applications against decks like BW Tokens and the Mirror, as opposed to board wipe recovery.
Just an FYI, your list is only 59 cards. Great write up though!
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
I think the general synopsis is that Chord = aggro/combo, Lead = midrange/grindy matchups. As for which second colour (or having both), I'm still firmly in the personal preference camp. Horizon Canopy is a huge boon to the GW cause.
As for the fetch math:
Check the spoiler below to see how far I got before I realised I was way too out of depth/had no time for this sort of mathematics. Someone that isn't an arts student/is capable please do the math. I know it probably is a percent or two at most, even at 4 fetches but I digress.
We need to draw several assumptions in order to try and mathematically figure out some stuff.
Foremost:
Assumption A: I am not a great mathematician.
Assumption B: We are using a list with 19 land (19/60), and statistically speaking we generally have two lands per opener, leaving us with 17 lands left in the deck. (17/53)
Assumption C: We have 8 spells in the deck, which can't be hit by Collected Company/Lead. (8/60)
Assumption D: We are assuming we only have 1 copy of the respective spell being tested, with the other 7 spells in the deck still remaining.
Assumption E: We have not drawn any non-fetch lands every time we play a fetch.
Assumption F: Thereby, the chances of us hitting a non-Coco target, after the following assumptions have been processed are (24/53)
With that in mind:
1 fetch (23/52): 0.442
2 fetch (22/51): 0.431
3 fetch (21/50): 0.420
4 fetch (20/49): 0.408
Collected Company:
1 fetch: 0.442 x 0.442 x 0.442 x 0.442 x 0.442 x 0.442 (?)
2 fetch: 0.431 x 0.431 x 0.431 x 0.431 x 0.431 x 0.431 (?)
3 fetch: 0.420 x 0.420 x 0.420 x 0.420 x 0.420 x 0.420 (????)
4 fetch: 0.408 x 0.408 x 0.408 x 0.408 x 0.408 x 0.408 (?)
Could someone actually decent at statistics do the fetch math.
Any advantage gained by thinning out your deck with fetches is certainly counteracted by reshuffling unwanted cards back into the top portion of your deck. Each time you CoCo or Lead you are increasing the density of creatures available in the top half of the deck.
Regardless of the specifics, you are correct that it is at most a couple of percent either way, and the chance that it will perceivable alter the outcome of a game is even less than that (ie. you were already winning or losing so getting that thin percentage boost didn't actually do anything).
Not to mention the functional benefits of fetches as a form of mana fixing.
Basically, while the math may be useful in a academic sense, the variables become too complex to model for any practical application.
Also I wanted to clarify that Abzan versions of elves are not superior to the GW or GB shells in any one matchup, however the flexibility in answers gives is more game against a predictable field. You are moving from more extreme versions to a conservative middle ground (which I personally prefer).
Again it comes down to playstyle preference and the sets of decks you are playing against. This continues to confirm that the strengths of these different builds we are discussing (sana the core) is relative. Evidence being that we are not seeing a consistent winning performance by any particular shell.
Without new tech we are really just spinning our wheels and discussing specifics of our own personal experience (which is fine).
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)It depends on your meta, but generally Twin lists have a great grind-factor to them that makes it hard for you to apply pressure (Grixis has Kologhan's Command, Terminate and Bolt, while the straight Izzet lists have Electrolyze, Bolt and tech like Twisted Image plus the main deck Dispel.) With that in mind, bringing in Lead while shaving Elves (I tend to shave Dwynen's as their extra body rarely seems relevant in that matchup) seems perfectly fine as a Chord list, as you have the grind factor from Lead, while Chord still remains very much relevant in the matchup. Not to mention, if they are running the main deck Dispel (in either variant), Lead plays around that and occasionally finds the Skites you need.
RE: wushambudo
Your opponent's list seems strange (2 Leaks vs having 4 Remand), but Caverns generally make or break that matchup when trying to resolve threats. Also, playing a little more defensively is advised against Twin as even a 6-7 turn clock on them will make them feel pressured. Holding up Chords and the like are definitely advised, and bluffing them on Chords helps make them feel they can't combo off. I've definitely won games against Twin on the back of bluffing a Chord for 2.