You guys think this can be used in Infect.
It is a counter and we can also cycle it when needed.
I think we have a counter that is a lot better in Spell Pierce but I just thought I mention it to see what the rest thinks.
Censor
1U
Instant , Uncommon
Counter target spell unless its controller pays {1}.
Cycling U
I do like that spell as a possible counter along with the option to cycle for more pump spells, plus fuel for Become Immense. However, Stubborn Denial is better in this sense. I'm still whole heartily for Spell Pierce.
Modern Monday happened again last night in my area and this time I decided to give Infect a go and bench Merfolk & Dredge this week. It was an interesting tournament to say the least.
Here was my matches: Round 1: (Opponent's deck: Infect) I wasn't expecting another Infect player to start the tournament off with but nonetheless, I know what to do and when.
Game 1: Infect did well for me, I go the turn 3 win. Blighted Agent is definitely my hero in the deck.
Game 2: To be fare, my opponent was running a budget version of the deck without Inkmoth Nexus and Noble Hierarch. It was a pretty easy match in that they only had a Blight Mamba for their infector. They tried to pump it up but I had an Dismember in hand to wipe their board. From then on out, I managed to win pretty easily.
Round 2: (Opponent's deck: Bant Company) I have never faced this deck so I don't really know what to expect.
Game 1: Collected Company is pretty nasty by doing it instant speed while I was casting a spell and then managed to hit Spell Queller and then Reflector Mage as well.
Game 2: My opponent didn't draw well this time and I managed to get there pretty easily.
Game 3: Meddling Mage was pretty bad in this matchup by stopping me to cast Blighted Agent, my best beater. They managed to get there with Spell Queller and Reflector Mage.
Round 3: (Opponent's deck: Esper Planewalker Home Brew) This match pretty bad, I under estimated my opponent from having such a budget mana base and trying to go in all with Planewalkers. That was my mistake.
Game 1: I only had an Inkmoth Nexus out ready to win but they kept playing Lingering Souls. They start getting with some spirits and I couldn't get through the blockers in the air. The match took a lot of time and I wanted to sideboard to answer the planewalkers.
Game 2: I was incredibly dumb and kept a one land hard with 3 Glistener Elfs, I figured I could draw more lands. Well... I didn't for quite a while but I managed to play all my creatures and think I could get there with that. On turn 4, My opponent dropped a Languish and wiped the board, after that I managed to draw a land. No creatures for two turns and continued to pass the turn. On my opponents 7th turn, they dropped an Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. I scooped because I had nothing for that in my deck. Even though I lost that match, my opponent dropped without telling me after turning to score sheet, so the tournament organizer felt that dropping the tournament and trying to mess up my record was wrong, they give me the win.
Round 4: (Opponent's deck: Burn) One of my two hated decks in Modern, I knew that this was going to be pretty hard nonetheless.
Game 1: Burn, burn, and guess what? Burn! They got me with burn and removal on my infectors.
Game 2: I wish I had more games like this. Starting hand was garbage, I mulligan and got a Glistener Elf, Noble Hierarch, Might of Old Krosa, Mutagenic Growth, a fetch land and a Forest. I kept that hand and did my scry, ontop of my deck I had another Might of Old Krosa and then decided to keep it on top. Turn 1, Forest and drop a Glistener Elf then passed. My opponent's turn 1, they were a little surprised to see just that out there and thought they could kill it in due time, instead suspended a Rift Bolt and passed. Turn 2 for me I drew my Might of Old Krosa, dropped my fetch and cracked it, played both of Might of Old Krosas and payed life for Mutagenic Growth and swung for 11 Infect on turn 2. God that was amazing.
Game 3: A rather close game and I would won but they had an Atarka's Command to stop my Inkmoth Nexus and loss the next turn.
Round 4: (Opponent's deck: Jund) And now, my most hated deck in Modern... Removal.deck
Game 1: Removal spell after removal spell... Pretty much nothing I can do most of the time but my opponent made a mistake to having such a low life total and not leaving a blocker back because my Noble Hierarch got there with my pump spells.
Game 2: This time and all the time, no creature will live. My opponent just kept killing all my creatures along with getting in their with Tarmogoyfs.
Game 3: Same thing, the reason why Jund is called "Removal.deck" is because it removes everything from the battlefield and the hand. A bit closer game but they managed to get me.
Yet again, the last round of the tournament decided for me to get into top 8 and yet again... it was against Jund. All in all, I went 2-3-0 in the tournament. I could have done better but their is always next time. I got to see more diverse deck in Modern and be prepared for next time.
I like Nissa, Steward of Elements as a planeswalker that can value for heavy creature based decks. Our deck usually only runs 12 minimum creatures (aside from Inkmoth Nexus) and around 14 maximum creatures in our deck. By turn 3, we should be winning or really close to it. If Infect was more of a mid range style deck, then yeah, she would be great. For now, we are too aggressive and need pumps along with protection for our win conditions.
So, I've been playing this deck in Modern for about 3 weeks and as of recent I've been getting smashed left and right. It's getting to the point to where I'm discouraged to pilot this deck. Spot removal is everywhere on untap and I can't seem to win on a consistent basis. How do you all handle this?
So, I've been playing this deck in Modern for about 3 weeks and as of recent I've been getting smashed left and right. It's getting to the point to where I'm discouraged to pilot this deck. Spot removal is everywhere on untap and I can't seem to win on a consistent basis. How do you all handle this?
i think the deck is just very bad positioned in the current meta where some of the best decks have a good mu vs infect...deaths shadow decks play 8+ disruption and the same number of removal and provide a fast clock. eldrazi tron plays main chalice. Burn was always a pretty hard MU for us. Abzan is bad for us too.
Only these decks account for more than 30% share of the metagame, on paper it gets even worse from what i am experiencing.
So I would stongly encourage you to not play this deck right now in bigger tournaments.
/edit:
If I were to play the deck right now I would probably play 1 main temple garden, add 2-3 Geists in the board as well as a playset of white Leyline. This of course leaves us behind with less other sideboard options but helps against Death Shadow Decks, Grixis Decks and Burn.
My reasoning behind Leyline is that we need an answer for decks with heavy discard stuff like Death Shadow Decks. They can easily strip us off our only infect creature and beat us with their fast clock. With Leyline in play we kill 10 of their discard spells they have postboard (4 Inquisition, 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Brutality) and are unaffected by Liliana's sacrifice ability. Beeing good against Scapeshift and Burn too is like a nice side effect of Leyline altough I mainly implemented it against discard.
The meta is very hostile now. I am also struggling but I see all aggro decks are having a hard time. I played Affinity a lot a couple years ago and it was the same. When the meta changes it can be very difficult for aggro because aggro does one thing really good and fast but if it gets disrupted it can fold pretty fast.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Reanimator
Modern - Burn
EDH - Neheb the Eternal
So, I've been playing this deck in Modern for about 3 weeks and as of recent I've been getting smashed left and right. It's getting to the point to where I'm discouraged to pilot this deck. Spot removal is everywhere on untap and I can't seem to win on a consistent basis. How do you all handle this?
LOTS of protection, and patience. Currently packing 4 Vines of vastwood, 4 blossoming defense, 2 apostles blessing, 4 spell pierce as a protection package. Thinking of going to 3 or 4 blessings because of the unblockablity.
So, I've been playing this deck in Modern for about 3 weeks and as of recent I've been getting smashed left and right. It's getting to the point to where I'm discouraged to pilot this deck. Spot removal is everywhere on untap and I can't seem to win on a consistent basis. How do you all handle this?
I to am getting discouraged by loosing to removal as well. Infect just needs to be slower an more careful against decks that answers to our creatures. Infect can win on turn 2 if everything goes in our favor. Most of the time, I want to win on turn 3 and up. This deck usually always wins on game 1 but we need to slow it down a lot the following games from here on out. Infect just needs to be slower than we were before the ban list update.
The meta is very hostile now. I am also struggling but I see all aggro decks are having a hard time. I played Affinity a lot a couple years ago and it was the same. When the meta changes it can be very difficult for aggro because aggro does one thing really good and fast but if it gets disrupted it can fold pretty fast.
The meta has become quite hostile right now wit many aggro decks right now dominating like Death's Shadow Jund and the new answer to almost everything in Modern is Fatal Push. We just need to be mindful to the problems we will face.
So, I've been playing this deck in Modern for about 3 weeks and as of recent I've been getting smashed left and right. It's getting to the point to where I'm discouraged to pilot this deck. Spot removal is everywhere on untap and I can't seem to win on a consistent basis. How do you all handle this?
I to am getting discouraged by loosing to removal as well. Infect just needs to be slower an more careful against decks that answers to our creatures. Infect can win on turn 2 if everything goes in our favor. Most of the time, I want to win on turn 3 and up. This deck usually always wins on game 1 but we need to slow it down a lot the following games from here on out. Infect just needs to be slower than we were before the ban list update.
LOTS of protection, and patience. Currently packing 4 Vines of vastwood, 4 blossoming defense, 2 apostles blessing, 4 spell pierce as a protection package. Thinking of going to 3 or 4 blessings because of the unblockablity.
Protection spells may be the answer, but I feel we need something else. Spell Pierce has been inconsistent for me, because I can also draw it late game and it doesn't do crap. It's really good early game if our opponent attempts to Path to Exile/Fatal Push us, but they have mana late game. I feel once a match reaches to its later turns and we still haven't won yet due to all the spot removal it's pretty much curtains.
How do you guys feel about BG infect? It's slower and grindier for sure, but it fits the current meta and has a lot of disruption spells and remove potential threats from our opponents hand. It has its cons sure, but do ya'll think it would be able to perform any better than UG infect right now?
If we have to go slower why don't we go the way that Death Shadow went and just try to convert Infect to a style like that deck.
Pack lots of disruption, throw in some Fatal Push and go for one or two big hits. I don't know this is just something that came in my mind.
I still love the play style that UG gives me.
Maybe we just have to wait for the next bam anounsments to see what will happen to the meta. I don't like bans because it can mess up some people's investment so I am not advocating it.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Reanimator
Modern - Burn
EDH - Neheb the Eternal
If we have to go slower why don't we go the way that Death Shadow went and just try to convert Infect to a style like that deck.
Pack lots of disruption, throw in some Fatal Push and go for one or two big hits. I don't know this is just something that came in my mind.
That's what BG infect is. I mean it may be 2-3 big hits, but it has enough disruption to fit that sort of playstyle. Played a few games last night and did pretty well for myself.
I was thinking of replacing 1x Dismember with a third copy of Fatal Push or Abrupt Decay and siding in the extra Dismember for Eldrazi Decks. Maybe drop the copy of Vampiric Link in the sideboard for it? What do you guys think? Going to give this a spin tonight possibly at a local hobby shop.
@Erich_Zann - I've never played UG Infect, and have been exclusively playing BG Infect since October. I'm an average player, and my results reflect that (currently 38-36-1 with it), but I think the deck has mileage. Trust me when I say that's not really an optimal list for BG Infect.
At the moment, BG Infect is well placed in the heavy removal/discard meta because it has more bodies than UG, with Phyrexian Crusader being able to protect itself and come down T2 if you're lucky. I'd run 4 of them.
It also has many interesting MB and SB decisions to make.
I originally ran hand disruption but took it all out in favour of 4xGroundswell. I've decided hand disruption only slows you down. At the end of the day, you still want to be doing 10 Infect ASAP. Spending 1 mana to remove something from your opponents hand could be an extra pump or protection spell. What you get is a more resilient Infect build, with the ability to interact via spot removal.
A 3rd Rancor is very useful, but the pseudo-evasion with Flying and Pro-Red+White is not to be underestimated.
Land-wise I run 20 land - 6 fetches, 2 basics, 1 Pendelhaven (its slightly less relevant for BG), and 4xBlooming Marsh. Of the 75 games I've played, I've only been mana screwed 4 or 5 times. The main issue is having enough G for pump, and double B for Crusader. That's where the Fast Land helps.
At the moment, BG Infect is well placed in the heavy removal/discard meta because it has more bodies than UG, with Phyrexian Crusader being able to protect itself and come down T2 if you're lucky. I'd run 4 of them.
It also has many interesting MB and SB decisions to make.
I originally ran hand disruption but took it all out in favour of 4xGroundswell. I've decided hand disruption only slows you down. At the end of the day, you still want to be doing 10 Infect ASAP. Spending 1 mana to remove something from your opponents hand could be an extra pump or protection spell. What you get is a more resilient Infect build, with the ability to interact via spot removal.
A 3rd Rancor is very useful, but the pseudo-evasion with Flying and Pro-Red+White is not to be underestimated.
Land-wise I run 20 land - 6 fetches, 2 basics, 1 Pendelhaven (its slightly less relevant for BG), and 4xBlooming Marsh. Of the 75 games I've played, I've only been mana screwed 4 or 5 times. The main issue is having enough G for pump, and double B for Crusader. That's where the Fast Land helps.
So, I want to touch upon what's bolded in my quotation of your post. That sort of mindset isn't the mindset to have with Infect. Our main goal may be get 10 infect counters on our opponent, but playing too hastily is toxic. What I like about Legacy Infect over Modern Infect is that it has a balance between pump spells, cantrips and counterspells. This allows the deck to be prepared for situations versus the meta. Modern has no good draw spells except for Serum Visions which ultimately is still ***** compared to cards like Brainstorm and Ponder. So, in replace of these cantrips we apparently run more pump spells which makes the deck more fragile. Not mention the lack of counter spells in comparison to Legacy. Legacy has Force of Will, Daze and Spell Pierce in the mainboard. Obviously there are no cards on the same level as Force of Will and Daze in Modern, so we would improvise. All I see are 1-2 copies of Spell Pierce and 1-2 of Apostle's Blessing. For one, I think Spell Pierce isn't as good as it is in Legacy. In Legacy a lot of lands get destroyed with Wasteland or returned to hand with Daze, so the extra 2 one has to pay for Spell Pierce doesn't happen on a consistent basis. Since Modern is a slower format with Wasteland not being legal and Ghost Quarter seen in X amount of decks the number of lands your opponent develops mid-late game is greater than in Legacy. I have ran into situations where that extra 2 can be payed and my Spell Pierce more times than I'd like. It becomes either wasted or just useless leaving me with my little poisonous buddies dying for nothing. Apostle's Blessing is a good card and deserves a spot in Modern Infect. I enjoy it, but it doesn't help against getting discarded by Collective Brutality, which is in a decent number of decks in the meta. Adding more pump spells isn't the right answer to solving out problems in the meta. What good are pump spells if our creatures die like cattle? We're left with hands filled with pump spells that have no targets.
What we need is a different approach to playing Infect. One similar to Legacy Infect. One where we can kill our opponent, but can stand on it's own two legs and grind the match out if we can't kill right away. I think BG is that right approach we need for the current state of the meta. That or we reconstruct UG to play more like its bigger brother in Legacy. Our only issue is Modern doesn't have spells like Berserk or Invigorate in the deck, so we have to pay for a lot of our pump spells.
Next I want to touch upon your land count. If you want to win quicker why are you running Blooming Marshes? I hate these type of lands. I think they're useless. They come in tapped unless you control 2 or fewer lands which makes them only great for the first 2-3 turns. After that they just come in tapped, slow us down a turn and aren't fetchable. They're a waste. they aren't consistent enough. Why put in any card that only works a certain percentage of the time? Winning in a tcg means your deck needs to be as consistent as possible. You can solve that problem by adding 1x Swamp and 1x Forest in additions to that basics you have and 2 more fetches. This will make Groundswell more reliable as a pump spell, because now you're not slown down a turn if you draw the Blooming Marsh beyond turn 3 because it's now a better land. I'm personally not a fan of Groundswell. It goes back to the notion of running consistent cards, although one can argue that it's more consistent than not, but it still has the chances of only being a +2/+2 depending if you have lands to play. Infect does not play a lot of lands to begin with, so this makes it inconsistent. We're not going to draw a land every turn to make this a consistent card. I think the potential +4/+4 is nice, but half the time I find myself wishing it was something else.
I disagree with your statement about disruption being a waste. Would you rather have an extra pump spell to waste on your infect creature as it gets Path to Exiled, Fatal Pushed, Lightning Bolted, Condemned, Blessed Alliance, Abrupt Decayed, Collective Brutality, or et cetera; or would you prefer to cast disruption by discarding those threats from the hand, then safely playing your infect cards while simultaneously knowing what's in your opponents hand? Knowing whether or not it is safe to trek the waters? Knowing that their tools have been disposed of? I think I'd go with the second option. BG is going to be grindier for sure, but it helps us against the current meta which is also grindy. Aggro decks are taking it in the butt right now. Wanting to make BG more aggro is like asking for a gun to off yourself.
Lastly, your idea to run 1 less Pendelhaven isn't a wise choice. There is a reason why Legacy runs 1x Pendelhaven in comparison to Modern where we run 2. Modern doesn't have Crop Rotation. In Legacy they can search for it whenever they need it. In Modern we have to hope to draw for it. Running 1 less takes away a nice piece to our overall goal.
I want to add that your sideboard options make a lot of sense and I need to restructure it. We are in a point in the meta where Infect needs to be a bit more passive. I encourage everyone to try ouy BG infect or make UG more balance in terms of spells (Pump, draw, counterspells). Easier said than done, I know. I'll post results in the near future about my BG build.
***P.S.: I want to add to you personally that at no point should this be taken as a direct attack. I appreciate you putting in your 2 cents in about BG infect since you've been playing it since October. I just want to state that being too hasty wiil get us killed in this meta. I learned a lot from what you shared and will be using it to help further develop my BG build. Thank you.***
@Erich_Zann, thankyou for your feedback and your courtesy towards me.
Let me explain my thought processes a bit more.
When I said "At the end of the day, you still want to be doing 10 Infect ASAP" I'm not implying that we rush or go hyper-aggro with the deck. What I'm referring to is that Infect is better in the early-mid game than mid-late game. You don't want an Infect match dragging out too long. If your opponent gets all their land and/or answers it makes it far harder to us to win. Ideally we want a T3 or T4 kill. The way you achieve that is with pump - +4/+4s are most consistent - Might of Old Krosa and Groundswell are the best 2 1-mana instants to do this at the moment in Modern. (I would LOVE to have Invigorate in Modern!!!)
You suggest discard as the answer for removal/grindy meta, but again I disagree. In response they will often just cast the instant anyway forcing you to respond. In my experience the BG Infect build often has the redundancy to fight through removal/discard - 16 infect creatures vs 12/13 for UG - about 1/4 vs about 1/5. You're more likely to have multiple infecters on the battlefield so they need to pick carefully what they target - then you pump what isn't targeted. If you don't have a creature, you're more likely than UG to draw another one. Furthermore, Phyrexian Crusader has protection vs Bolt, Path, Terminate, Searing Blaze, Anger of the Gods, Electrolyze, Staticaster, Nahiri, Condemn etc, and only dies to a "revolted" Fatal Push.
My experience has been that that discard spell you used could have been a +4/+4 pump spell that won you the game that turn... (Crusader + Hierarch + Pump = 5-7 Infect)
If you're really worried, you can always up the Protection as you suggested - I run 4xVines of Vastwood and 3xBlossoming Defense MB, which could got up to a 4th I guess.
Re: land, I think you're underestimating the need for double black AND enough green for pump/protection in this build, as well as the greater pain of 3 life for fetch+shock in Modern compared to Legacy (no Bayou or Tropical Island ). Some turns you simply must have the right colours - drawing an extra basic of the wrong colour will not help. That's why I cut down to one Pendelhaven - it doesn't work with Crusader, and sometimes I wish that land could tap for B too. There's nothing worse than a crusader in hand, 3 land but only 1 that taps for B. Pendelhaven is useful but not as necessary in BG than UG. Blooming Marsh gets around the problem of the right colours AND the problem of lifeloss from shock+fetch. It does take some skill to sequence the land drops more though. However, if I already have 3 lands in play then draw a Marsh I'm never normally sad - the deck runs fine with 3 lands (remember you'll likely have a Hierarch too), so 4 or more land is merely helpful extras.
I agree with Groundswell sometimes being inconsistent, but sometimes you can hold a land back if you don't need it, or hold GS back and play them together. Its a card you need to think about with fetching and when to play land drops, but its effect is worth the extra skill involved using it.
I can tell you that of the 15 Modern Infect decks on MTGTop8 from the past 2 months, 9 of them used Groundswell in some number...
@Erich_Zann, thankyou for your feedback and your courtesy towards me.
Let me explain my thought processes a bit more.
When I said "At the end of the day, you still want to be doing 10 Infect ASAP" I'm not implying that we rush or go hyper-aggro with the deck. What I'm referring to is that Infect is better in the early-mid game than mid-late game. You don't want an Infect match dragging out too long. If your opponent gets all their land and/or answers it makes it far harder to us to win. Ideally we want a T3 or T4 kill. The way you achieve that is with pump - +4/+4s are most consistent - Might of Old Krosa and Groundswell are the best 2 1-mana instants to do this at the moment in Modern. (I would LOVE to have Invigorate in Modern!!!)
You suggest discard as the answer for removal/grindy meta, but again I disagree. In response they will often just cast the instant anyway forcing you to respond. In my experience the BG Infect build often has the redundancy to fight through removal/discard - 16 infect creatures vs 12/13 for UG - about 1/4 vs about 1/5. You're more likely to have multiple infecters on the battlefield so they need to pick carefully what they target - then you pump what isn't targeted. If you don't have a creature, you're more likely than UG to draw another one. Furthermore, Phyrexian Crusader has protection vs Bolt, Path, Terminate, Searing Blaze, Anger of the Gods, Electrolyze, Staticaster, Nahiri, Condemn etc, and only dies to a "revolted" Fatal Push.
My experience has been that that discard spell you used could have been a +4/+4 pump spell that won you the game that turn... (Crusader + Hierarch + Pump = 5-7 Infect)
If you're really worried, you can always up the Protection as you suggested - I run 4xVines of Vastwood and 3xBlossoming Defense MB, which could got up to a 4th I guess.
Re: land, I think you're underestimating the need for double black AND enough green for pump/protection in this build, as well as the greater pain of 3 life for fetch+shock in Modern compared to Legacy (no Bayou or Tropical Island ). Some turns you simply must have the right colours - drawing an extra basic of the wrong colour will not help. That's why I cut down to one Pendelhaven - it doesn't work with Crusader, and sometimes I wish that land could tap for B too. There's nothing worse than a crusader in hand, 3 land but only 1 that taps for B. Pendelhaven is useful but not as necessary in BG than UG. Blooming Marsh gets around the problem of the right colours AND the problem of lifeloss from shock+fetch. It does take some skill to sequence the land drops more though. However, if I already have 3 lands in play then draw a Marsh I'm never normally sad - the deck runs fine with 3 lands (remember you'll likely have a Hierarch too), so 4 or more land is merely helpful extras.
I agree with Groundswell sometimes being inconsistent, but sometimes you can hold a land back if you don't need it, or hold GS back and play them together. Its a card you need to think about with fetching and when to play land drops, but its effect is worth the extra skill involved using it.
I can tell you that of the 15 Modern Infect decks on MTGTop8 from the past 2 months, 9 of them used Groundswell in some number...
Good luck at FNM if you go tonight!
I get the points you're trying to make. I for one never use the discard after I have a creature on the field unless there is one already there. As much as Glistener Elf and Plague Stinger do a hell of a good job Phyrexian Crusader is MVP, so I don't mind losing some creatures here and there. MVP in UG was Blighted Agent and I hated when he got merc'd. Speaking of pump spells. Ya'll look at this yet?
P.S.: I don't underestimate the need to have BB for Phyrexian Crusader. I'll try out Blooming Marsh in the future, but the basics have been working just fine for my build. I still think Pendelhaven needs to be a 2 of. If anything take out a singleton forest if you're that worried about an overflow of G.
Just checked the full spoiler and unless I missed something there is not a single new card for the deck, wich is unfortunate. The only one is the green destroy artifact with cycle, wich can be a good option for the SB in the "bring this if you think your oponnent could have chalice in their SB". But I think viridian corrupter is better anyway since is always a 2/2 infect creature, wich is fine.
To be fair is hard for a new card to enter the deck, since every card is so cheap and efficient already, but is still a bit disapointing.
Just checked the full spoiler and unless I missed something there is not a single new card for the deck, wich is unfortunate. The only one is the green destroy artifact with cycle, wich can be a good option for the SB in the "bring this if you think your oponnent could have chalice in their SB". But I think viridian corrupter is better anyway since is always a 2/2 infect creature, wich is fine.
To be fair is hard for a new card to enter the deck, since every card is so cheap and efficient already, but is still a bit disapointing.
I do like that spell as a possible counter along with the option to cycle for more pump spells, plus fuel for Become Immense. However, Stubborn Denial is better in this sense. I'm still whole heartily for Spell Pierce.
Here was my matches:
Round 1: (Opponent's deck: Infect)
I wasn't expecting another Infect player to start the tournament off with but nonetheless, I know what to do and when.
Game 1: Infect did well for me, I go the turn 3 win. Blighted Agent is definitely my hero in the deck.
Game 2: To be fare, my opponent was running a budget version of the deck without Inkmoth Nexus and Noble Hierarch. It was a pretty easy match in that they only had a Blight Mamba for their infector. They tried to pump it up but I had an Dismember in hand to wipe their board. From then on out, I managed to win pretty easily.
Round 2: (Opponent's deck: Bant Company)
I have never faced this deck so I don't really know what to expect.
Game 1: Collected Company is pretty nasty by doing it instant speed while I was casting a spell and then managed to hit Spell Queller and then Reflector Mage as well.
Game 2: My opponent didn't draw well this time and I managed to get there pretty easily.
Game 3: Meddling Mage was pretty bad in this matchup by stopping me to cast Blighted Agent, my best beater. They managed to get there with Spell Queller and Reflector Mage.
Round 3: (Opponent's deck: Esper Planewalker Home Brew)
This match pretty bad, I under estimated my opponent from having such a budget mana base and trying to go in all with Planewalkers. That was my mistake.
Game 1: I only had an Inkmoth Nexus out ready to win but they kept playing Lingering Souls. They start getting with some spirits and I couldn't get through the blockers in the air. The match took a lot of time and I wanted to sideboard to answer the planewalkers.
Game 2: I was incredibly dumb and kept a one land hard with 3 Glistener Elfs, I figured I could draw more lands. Well... I didn't for quite a while but I managed to play all my creatures and think I could get there with that. On turn 4, My opponent dropped a Languish and wiped the board, after that I managed to draw a land. No creatures for two turns and continued to pass the turn. On my opponents 7th turn, they dropped an Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. I scooped because I had nothing for that in my deck.
Even though I lost that match, my opponent dropped without telling me after turning to score sheet, so the tournament organizer felt that dropping the tournament and trying to mess up my record was wrong, they give me the win.
Round 4: (Opponent's deck: Burn)
One of my two hated decks in Modern, I knew that this was going to be pretty hard nonetheless.
Game 1: Burn, burn, and guess what? Burn! They got me with burn and removal on my infectors.
Game 2: I wish I had more games like this. Starting hand was garbage, I mulligan and got a Glistener Elf, Noble Hierarch, Might of Old Krosa, Mutagenic Growth, a fetch land and a Forest. I kept that hand and did my scry, ontop of my deck I had another Might of Old Krosa and then decided to keep it on top. Turn 1, Forest and drop a Glistener Elf then passed. My opponent's turn 1, they were a little surprised to see just that out there and thought they could kill it in due time, instead suspended a Rift Bolt and passed. Turn 2 for me I drew my Might of Old Krosa, dropped my fetch and cracked it, played both of Might of Old Krosas and payed life for Mutagenic Growth and swung for 11 Infect on turn 2. God that was amazing.
Game 3: A rather close game and I would won but they had an Atarka's Command to stop my Inkmoth Nexus and loss the next turn.
Round 4: (Opponent's deck: Jund)
And now, my most hated deck in Modern... Removal.deck
Game 1: Removal spell after removal spell... Pretty much nothing I can do most of the time but my opponent made a mistake to having such a low life total and not leaving a blocker back because my Noble Hierarch got there with my pump spells.
Game 2: This time and all the time, no creature will live. My opponent just kept killing all my creatures along with getting in their with Tarmogoyfs.
Game 3: Same thing, the reason why Jund is called "Removal.deck" is because it removes everything from the battlefield and the hand. A bit closer game but they managed to get me.
Yet again, the last round of the tournament decided for me to get into top 8 and yet again... it was against Jund. All in all, I went 2-3-0 in the tournament. I could have done better but their is always next time. I got to see more diverse deck in Modern and be prepared for next time.
Modern - Burn
EDH - Neheb the Eternal
I like Nissa, Steward of Elements as a planeswalker that can value for heavy creature based decks. Our deck usually only runs 12 minimum creatures (aside from Inkmoth Nexus) and around 14 maximum creatures in our deck. By turn 3, we should be winning or really close to it. If Infect was more of a mid range style deck, then yeah, she would be great. For now, we are too aggressive and need pumps along with protection for our win conditions.
i think the deck is just very bad positioned in the current meta where some of the best decks have a good mu vs infect...deaths shadow decks play 8+ disruption and the same number of removal and provide a fast clock. eldrazi tron plays main chalice. Burn was always a pretty hard MU for us. Abzan is bad for us too.
Only these decks account for more than 30% share of the metagame, on paper it gets even worse from what i am experiencing.
So I would stongly encourage you to not play this deck right now in bigger tournaments.
/edit:
If I were to play the deck right now I would probably play 1 main temple garden, add 2-3 Geists in the board as well as a playset of white Leyline. This of course leaves us behind with less other sideboard options but helps against Death Shadow Decks, Grixis Decks and Burn.
Maybe something like this:
2x Breeding Pool
4x Inkmoth Nexus
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Windswept Heath
3x Wooded Foothills
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Temple Garden
2x Forest
2x Pendelhaven
Creatures (14):
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Viridian Corrupter
4x Glistener Elf
4x Blighted Agent
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Blossoming Defense
3x Become Immense
1x Groundswell
4x Might of Old Krosa
4x Mutagenic Growth
4x Vines of Vastwood
2x Distortion Strike
2x Apostle's Blessing
1x Path to Exile
1x Postmortem Lunge
1x Spell Pierce
3x Geist of Saint Traft
3x Kitchen Finks
4x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Nature's Claim
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Seal of Primordium
1x Path to Exile
My reasoning behind Leyline is that we need an answer for decks with heavy discard stuff like Death Shadow Decks. They can easily strip us off our only infect creature and beat us with their fast clock. With Leyline in play we kill 10 of their discard spells they have postboard (4 Inquisition, 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Brutality) and are unaffected by Liliana's sacrifice ability. Beeing good against Scapeshift and Burn too is like a nice side effect of Leyline altough I mainly implemented it against discard.
Modern - Burn
EDH - Neheb the Eternal
LOTS of protection, and patience. Currently packing 4 Vines of vastwood, 4 blossoming defense, 2 apostles blessing, 4 spell pierce as a protection package. Thinking of going to 3 or 4 blessings because of the unblockablity.
I to am getting discouraged by loosing to removal as well. Infect just needs to be slower an more careful against decks that answers to our creatures. Infect can win on turn 2 if everything goes in our favor. Most of the time, I want to win on turn 3 and up. This deck usually always wins on game 1 but we need to slow it down a lot the following games from here on out. Infect just needs to be slower than we were before the ban list update.
The meta has become quite hostile right now wit many aggro decks right now dominating like Death's Shadow Jund and the new answer to almost everything in Modern is Fatal Push. We just need to be mindful to the problems we will face.
Protection spells may be the answer, but I feel we need something else. Spell Pierce has been inconsistent for me, because I can also draw it late game and it doesn't do crap. It's really good early game if our opponent attempts to Path to Exile/Fatal Push us, but they have mana late game. I feel once a match reaches to its later turns and we still haven't won yet due to all the spot removal it's pretty much curtains.
How do you guys feel about BG infect? It's slower and grindier for sure, but it fits the current meta and has a lot of disruption spells and remove potential threats from our opponents hand. It has its cons sure, but do ya'll think it would be able to perform any better than UG infect right now?
Pack lots of disruption, throw in some Fatal Push and go for one or two big hits. I don't know this is just something that came in my mind.
I still love the play style that UG gives me.
Maybe we just have to wait for the next bam anounsments to see what will happen to the meta. I don't like bans because it can mess up some people's investment so I am not advocating it.
Modern - Burn
EDH - Neheb the Eternal
That's what BG infect is. I mean it may be 2-3 big hits, but it has enough disruption to fit that sort of playstyle. Played a few games last night and did pretty well for myself.
3x Overgrown Tomb
2x Pendelhaven
4x Inkmoth Nexus
2x Swamp
2x Forest
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Misty Rainforest
Creatures (15)
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Glistener Elf
4x Plague Stinger
3x Phyrexian Crusader
4x Might of Old Krosa
4x Vines of Vastwood
3x Blossoming Defense
2x Become Immense
2x Fatal Push
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Dismember
Enchantments (2)
2x Rancor
Sorceries (4)
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Dismember
1x Illness in the Ranks
4x Nature's Claim
2x Spellskite
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Vampiric Link
2x Viridian Corrupter
2x Wild Defiance
I was thinking of replacing 1x Dismember with a third copy of Fatal Push or Abrupt Decay and siding in the extra Dismember for Eldrazi Decks. Maybe drop the copy of Vampiric Link in the sideboard for it? What do you guys think? Going to give this a spin tonight possibly at a local hobby shop.
At the moment, BG Infect is well placed in the heavy removal/discard meta because it has more bodies than UG, with Phyrexian Crusader being able to protect itself and come down T2 if you're lucky. I'd run 4 of them.
It also has many interesting MB and SB decisions to make.
I originally ran hand disruption but took it all out in favour of 4xGroundswell. I've decided hand disruption only slows you down. At the end of the day, you still want to be doing 10 Infect ASAP. Spending 1 mana to remove something from your opponents hand could be an extra pump or protection spell. What you get is a more resilient Infect build, with the ability to interact via spot removal.
BG Infect doesn't need Wild Defiance, and due to the level of Abrupt Decay and/or Fatal Push you run, you don't need 4xNature's Claim, and I don't run any Viridian Corrupter. I run 3x AB and 1xDismember MB with 2xFP in the side. I'd replace Illness in the Ranks with a Grafdigger's Cage. For Burn, I've got 2xKitchen Finks, 1xCollective Brutality and 2xPulse of Murasa. These latter 2 are also good against Ad Nauseam and Control matchups. KF is good vs Elves+Merfolk+Zoo. I've also got 2xPithing Needle in the side for Jund and Lantern Control in particular.
A 3rd Rancor is very useful, but the pseudo-evasion with Flying and Pro-Red+White is not to be underestimated.
Land-wise I run 20 land - 6 fetches, 2 basics, 1 Pendelhaven (its slightly less relevant for BG), and 4xBlooming Marsh. Of the 75 games I've played, I've only been mana screwed 4 or 5 times. The main issue is having enough G for pump, and double B for Crusader. That's where the Fast Land helps.
So, I want to touch upon what's bolded in my quotation of your post. That sort of mindset isn't the mindset to have with Infect. Our main goal may be get 10 infect counters on our opponent, but playing too hastily is toxic. What I like about Legacy Infect over Modern Infect is that it has a balance between pump spells, cantrips and counterspells. This allows the deck to be prepared for situations versus the meta. Modern has no good draw spells except for Serum Visions which ultimately is still ***** compared to cards like Brainstorm and Ponder. So, in replace of these cantrips we apparently run more pump spells which makes the deck more fragile. Not mention the lack of counter spells in comparison to Legacy. Legacy has Force of Will, Daze and Spell Pierce in the mainboard. Obviously there are no cards on the same level as Force of Will and Daze in Modern, so we would improvise. All I see are 1-2 copies of Spell Pierce and 1-2 of Apostle's Blessing. For one, I think Spell Pierce isn't as good as it is in Legacy. In Legacy a lot of lands get destroyed with Wasteland or returned to hand with Daze, so the extra 2 one has to pay for Spell Pierce doesn't happen on a consistent basis. Since Modern is a slower format with Wasteland not being legal and Ghost Quarter seen in X amount of decks the number of lands your opponent develops mid-late game is greater than in Legacy. I have ran into situations where that extra 2 can be payed and my Spell Pierce more times than I'd like. It becomes either wasted or just useless leaving me with my little poisonous buddies dying for nothing. Apostle's Blessing is a good card and deserves a spot in Modern Infect. I enjoy it, but it doesn't help against getting discarded by Collective Brutality, which is in a decent number of decks in the meta. Adding more pump spells isn't the right answer to solving out problems in the meta. What good are pump spells if our creatures die like cattle? We're left with hands filled with pump spells that have no targets.
What we need is a different approach to playing Infect. One similar to Legacy Infect. One where we can kill our opponent, but can stand on it's own two legs and grind the match out if we can't kill right away. I think BG is that right approach we need for the current state of the meta. That or we reconstruct UG to play more like its bigger brother in Legacy. Our only issue is Modern doesn't have spells like Berserk or Invigorate in the deck, so we have to pay for a lot of our pump spells.
Next I want to touch upon your land count. If you want to win quicker why are you running Blooming Marshes? I hate these type of lands. I think they're useless. They come in tapped unless you control 2 or fewer lands which makes them only great for the first 2-3 turns. After that they just come in tapped, slow us down a turn and aren't fetchable. They're a waste. they aren't consistent enough. Why put in any card that only works a certain percentage of the time? Winning in a tcg means your deck needs to be as consistent as possible. You can solve that problem by adding 1x Swamp and 1x Forest in additions to that basics you have and 2 more fetches. This will make Groundswell more reliable as a pump spell, because now you're not slown down a turn if you draw the Blooming Marsh beyond turn 3 because it's now a better land. I'm personally not a fan of Groundswell. It goes back to the notion of running consistent cards, although one can argue that it's more consistent than not, but it still has the chances of only being a +2/+2 depending if you have lands to play. Infect does not play a lot of lands to begin with, so this makes it inconsistent. We're not going to draw a land every turn to make this a consistent card. I think the potential +4/+4 is nice, but half the time I find myself wishing it was something else.
I disagree with your statement about disruption being a waste. Would you rather have an extra pump spell to waste on your infect creature as it gets Path to Exiled, Fatal Pushed, Lightning Bolted, Condemned, Blessed Alliance, Abrupt Decayed, Collective Brutality, or et cetera; or would you prefer to cast disruption by discarding those threats from the hand, then safely playing your infect cards while simultaneously knowing what's in your opponents hand? Knowing whether or not it is safe to trek the waters? Knowing that their tools have been disposed of? I think I'd go with the second option. BG is going to be grindier for sure, but it helps us against the current meta which is also grindy. Aggro decks are taking it in the butt right now. Wanting to make BG more aggro is like asking for a gun to off yourself.
Lastly, your idea to run 1 less Pendelhaven isn't a wise choice. There is a reason why Legacy runs 1x Pendelhaven in comparison to Modern where we run 2. Modern doesn't have Crop Rotation. In Legacy they can search for it whenever they need it. In Modern we have to hope to draw for it. Running 1 less takes away a nice piece to our overall goal.
I want to add that your sideboard options make a lot of sense and I need to restructure it. We are in a point in the meta where Infect needs to be a bit more passive. I encourage everyone to try ouy BG infect or make UG more balance in terms of spells (Pump, draw, counterspells). Easier said than done, I know. I'll post results in the near future about my BG build.
***P.S.: I want to add to you personally that at no point should this be taken as a direct attack. I appreciate you putting in your 2 cents in about BG infect since you've been playing it since October. I just want to state that being too hasty wiil get us killed in this meta. I learned a lot from what you shared and will be using it to help further develop my BG build. Thank you.***
Let me explain my thought processes a bit more.
When I said "At the end of the day, you still want to be doing 10 Infect ASAP" I'm not implying that we rush or go hyper-aggro with the deck. What I'm referring to is that Infect is better in the early-mid game than mid-late game. You don't want an Infect match dragging out too long. If your opponent gets all their land and/or answers it makes it far harder to us to win. Ideally we want a T3 or T4 kill. The way you achieve that is with pump - +4/+4s are most consistent - Might of Old Krosa and Groundswell are the best 2 1-mana instants to do this at the moment in Modern. (I would LOVE to have Invigorate in Modern!!!)
You suggest discard as the answer for removal/grindy meta, but again I disagree. In response they will often just cast the instant anyway forcing you to respond. In my experience the BG Infect build often has the redundancy to fight through removal/discard - 16 infect creatures vs 12/13 for UG - about 1/4 vs about 1/5. You're more likely to have multiple infecters on the battlefield so they need to pick carefully what they target - then you pump what isn't targeted. If you don't have a creature, you're more likely than UG to draw another one. Furthermore, Phyrexian Crusader has protection vs Bolt, Path, Terminate, Searing Blaze, Anger of the Gods, Electrolyze, Staticaster, Nahiri, Condemn etc, and only dies to a "revolted" Fatal Push.
My experience has been that that discard spell you used could have been a +4/+4 pump spell that won you the game that turn... (Crusader + Hierarch + Pump = 5-7 Infect)
If you're really worried, you can always up the Protection as you suggested - I run 4xVines of Vastwood and 3xBlossoming Defense MB, which could got up to a 4th I guess.
Re: land, I think you're underestimating the need for double black AND enough green for pump/protection in this build, as well as the greater pain of 3 life for fetch+shock in Modern compared to Legacy (no Bayou or Tropical Island ). Some turns you simply must have the right colours - drawing an extra basic of the wrong colour will not help. That's why I cut down to one Pendelhaven - it doesn't work with Crusader, and sometimes I wish that land could tap for B too. There's nothing worse than a crusader in hand, 3 land but only 1 that taps for B. Pendelhaven is useful but not as necessary in BG than UG.
Blooming Marsh gets around the problem of the right colours AND the problem of lifeloss from shock+fetch. It does take some skill to sequence the land drops more though. However, if I already have 3 lands in play then draw a Marsh I'm never normally sad - the deck runs fine with 3 lands (remember you'll likely have a Hierarch too), so 4 or more land is merely helpful extras.
I agree with Groundswell sometimes being inconsistent, but sometimes you can hold a land back if you don't need it, or hold GS back and play them together. Its a card you need to think about with fetching and when to play land drops, but its effect is worth the extra skill involved using it.
I can tell you that of the 15 Modern Infect decks on MTGTop8 from the past 2 months, 9 of them used Groundswell in some number...
Good luck at FNM if you go tonight!
I get the points you're trying to make. I for one never use the discard after I have a creature on the field unless there is one already there. As much as Glistener Elf and Plague Stinger do a hell of a good job Phyrexian Crusader is MVP, so I don't mind losing some creatures here and there. MVP in UG was Blighted Agent and I hated when he got merc'd. Speaking of pump spells. Ya'll look at this yet?
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/amonkhet/28833-supernatural-stamina
P.S.: I don't underestimate the need to have BB for Phyrexian Crusader. I'll try out Blooming Marsh in the future, but the basics have been working just fine for my build. I still think Pendelhaven needs to be a 2 of. If anything take out a singleton forest if you're that worried about an overflow of G.
To be fair is hard for a new card to enter the deck, since every card is so cheap and efficient already, but is still a bit disapointing.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/amonkhet/28833-supernatural-stamina