I have tried Eternal Scourge and I really like it if you can recur it, but it's definitely not my favorite card to have in multiples. Your argument has merit and I was thinking I'd like to have a few extra second and third turn plays to make. If we can whittle the curve down enough then we could maybe get away with a smaller land count
Yeah, I know why it's "good", but I just don't want to be forced to mulligan to have it in my starting hand for it to make sense or even do anything... and 4 boardspaces is way too much for a card that you really want to have in your starting hand to even do anything.
It's an awful topdeck, and what 4 cards would you trade out for it in the matchups you listed?
Personally I'm not that scared of a turn-1 discard. I let them do it, maybe because the list should be able to handle stuff like that. Yeah they could take your chalice, but usually my opponents really hate Boom/Bust or a simple stone rain on my starting hand, especially when they play 3 colors.
With the PW-package though I see much more use for it. So if I abandon this build I have now and start playing some Sun & Moon variant, I would probably go for 4 leyline in the SB.
I think Leyline has more mythology associated with it than any other card I've seen, and I've been around since the beginning. You don't "need" 4 copies. You don't "need" it in your opening hand, and it's not a terrible card to topdeck.
All of these statements seem particularly odd in the context of this particular deck that runs so many cards that have a chance to do nothing.
Leyline has a chance to do nothing. Yep. So does Blood Moon or Chalice or Suppression Field. Yep.
Chalice is powerful but scattershot. It doesn't completely shut down anything, but there are specific important things that it does shut down and we can plan around that. Leyline - almost exactly the same. I welcome a debate but let's try to do better than to describe one in rosy terms and the other as if you can't see the value.
Walked> Do we really need Leylines when dropping Chalice on 1 anyway? What are they gonna bolt our Gideon with? Helixes?
Dredge: This one is tricky because they're not casting a lot; but a lot of their early game are 1 CMC cards. Anger of the Gods is the key card here anyways pre-SB.
Leyline also stops Conflagrate in Dredge -- which is a pretty big deal. It also does a real number on Scapeshift, although you still have to win before they find a Disenchant effect. IMHO, Leyline is one of the main reasons to play this deck right now. If I were running MD chalice I imagine I'd be boarding them out every game for four Leylines.
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Some people like to win MtG matches in the Red Zone. I prefer to win the way God intended: on the stack.
Please try to make sure you are clear about what version you are talking about when talking generally about cards. Often it is obvious, but the builds do overlap and the usefulness of cards vary even within the planeswalker based shells.
E.g. The Bridge version of planeswalker control, Sun n Moon, plays well with main deck Leylines at at maximum, whereas a Sun and Moon build with a bit of landkill, as listed on the primer would not, and the regular versions may not, etc.
Fwiw, I like any RW 75 to have 4 Leyline, and, landkill lists aside, 3 RIP.
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Its not impossible, I also run Pillow Forts that can cast singleton Obliterates leaving a board full of Suppression Fields, Ghostly Prisons et al. That costs 8 and can come up with Nykthos and Karoo lands quite early. Enduring Ideal makes an SCG placing every few months (despite being played by very few people) and that costs 8. Technically you don't need multiple copies of this either, and trying to find other uses this could work with other "bad" cards like Shining shoal.
Really though its main use would be in an environment where decks like Martyr Proc (not soul sisters) are top tier - resilient decks gaining an extraordinary amounts of life and repeatedly fog-ing/chomping whilst near uncounterably reanimating Martyrs or Fog Kamis. That environment is not Modern and likely will never be. You have to ask what problems does this card solve for a RW Prison, and the answer is probably "none". In fact this is probably better in a Martyr Proc style deck where they can get to 100 life and often not be able to close the game if its 6/6's Ascendants end up being Pathed.
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Its not impossible, I also run Pillow Forts that can cast singleton Obliterates leaving a board full of Suppression Fields, Ghostly Prisons et al. That costs 8 and can come up with Nykthos and Karoo lands quite early. Enduring Ideal makes an SCG placing every few months (despite being played by very few people) and that costs 8. Technically you don't need multiple copies of this either, and trying to find other uses this could work with other "bad" cards like Shining shoal.
Really though its main use would be in an environment where decks like Martyr Proc (not soul sisters) are top tier - resilient decks gaining an extraordinary amounts of life and repeatedly fog-ing/chomping whilst near uncounterably reanimating Martyrs or Fog Kamis. That environment is not Modern and likely will never be. You have to ask what problems does this card solve for a RW Prison, and the answer is probably "none". In fact this is probably better in a Martyr Proc style deck where they can get to 100 life and often not be able to close the game if its 6/6's Ascendants end up being Pathed.
I'm not saying it would go well in every iteration of the R/W Prison shell.
It could take the spot of AtL which is a 1 or 2 off in the Bridge lockdown lists. My reasoning would be that it provides the same inevitability & against blue decks, it's value would be higher due to how it's worded.
Huh? You don't need to cast them on the same turn.
On a related note the wording is kinda weird. Is this thing practically uncounterable? It seems to be all cast triggers... I'm confused
To my knowledge, it's not uncounterable. It's ability triggers upon casting so if it gets countered, the ability still happens if you cast a second one.
If this meta breakdown / trending continues in the next month or so, paired with the release of New Gideon - I think Sun and Moon is REALLY well positioned.
I'm going to the SCG Baltimore in May; and I'm increasingly thinking S&M is the way to go. (I also have Eldrazi / Death's Shadow on standby just in case)
Not sure why we even talk about how long we've been playing magic, cuz that seems pretty irrelevant as an argument? I've been playing magic since -96 but I would never argue that's why I criticize playing Leyline of Sanctity in this kind of deck.
Yeah, I do believe you need it in your starting hand. As the argument against playing without Leyline was that people can discard you turn 1... Well, surprise! If you don't draw your Leyline of Sanctity on your opening hand they can discard your hand all the way until you get 4 mana AND get to draw a Leyline ^^
I just don't think that the card is that good in the modern-meta anymore, at least not for this kind of deck. People can play it as much as they want, and if it's working out for them that's awesome! But it is a bad topdeck when your plan is to pretty much lock your opponents resources the first few turns in the game. When that's done you need a wincon, as in Nahiri, a beater or something else entirely.
Chalice is at least flexible. It has no demand of being on the opening hand (but as many cards are, it's good to have there). It can also be used during the match against different CMC's, depending on the matchup. In many matchups we can even put it on 2 or even 3, if we find that it helps the matchup.
Back to the debate I would argue that this is pretty much the order of how much impact (in the current modern meta) the 3 cards we're talking about has (still, this is my own personal opinion, so keep that in mind):
1. Suppression Field. Pretty much does ALOT against any kind of deck in the meta. The only 2 decks I can think of that it's not great against is Valakut and the random monogreen devotion aggrodeck that seems to see play now and then. I even keep my 4 MB against Burn, as they play ALOT of fetches, and when destroying their other lands is my combat-plan, they get stuck with fetches that gives no mana.
2. Blood Moon. Well, regarding how much nonbasics people play this is really good. Still, people know about this card and play alot of basics, and fetch as soon they can for the most important basics when they see us playing red.
3. Leyline of Sanctity. In some matches it's devastating, especially if we play it in the mainboard. But against several "good" decks it's useless (against Eldrazi Tron it pretty much only stops Thought-Knot Seer, against Naya Zoo it stops their 4 bolts, nothing more. Merfolk, Coco-Company and Affinity are decks that pretty much never target us either...)
Morimacil> I'm not playing a full playset of SSG just to be able to play Chalice on turn 1. I actually use my SSG to cast ANY spell in my deck a turn earlier than I usually could. Keep in mind that a turn 3 Nahiri, or something else relevant a turn earlier than our opponent is expecting makes alot of difference
It's also a decent beater that can win matches now and then, especially when the opponent has no lands and/or only has removal that costs 1 CMC.
I'm trying to make polite points, but you seem to be begging for arguments. It would help significantly if you'd start by being honest. Yes I'm going there. There are significantly more effects that are stopped by Leyline than you've listed, and your list seems to me to be just a lame attempt to limit the scope of the argument to the fights that you think you can win. I don't even think you're doing a good job of that.
For what it's worth I'm not suggesting that any of the cards is better than the others, but there are clear relationships that exist, and the main one that should concern you is Chalice plus SSG. In the past I wouldn't have played one without the other.
They're good together but they're not the backbone of a tier 1 deck. They're the backbone of a tier 2 (occasionally tier 3) deck. To talk as if they're core cards that you'd be crazy to go without - I think it demonstrates a failure to understand the big picture. With Gideon in the fold there's an opportunity to make a tier one deck but that doesn't mean all the same relationships can exist. You're going to have to ditch something to make room for Gideon. Did you consider how the double white mana in Gideon's casting cost affects the mana base, and how the SSG might not be fully simpatico with that? You have to be willing to question and throw away your assumptions. Maybe SSG is the right card to cut, I don't know.
You seem set in your ways, and that's fine for some people but it may mean you and I just won't be able to see eye-to-eye.
I'm trying to make polite points, but you seem to be begging for arguments. It would help significantly if you'd start by being honest. Yes I'm going there. There are significantly more effects that are stopped by Leyline than you've listed, and your list seems to me to be just a lame attempt to limit the scope of the argument to the fights that you think you can win. I don't even think you're doing a good job of that.
I'm not sure entirely how being presented that you are an experienced player is making polite points, but I may be missing something?
For the record, I didn't list effects that any card is good AGAINST, I listed the cards and decks they are BAD against. That means you must have read it wrong, and it's bit hard for me to answer regarding that Leyline is good against more effects than I listed :/
For what it's worth I'm not suggesting that any of the cards is better than the others, but there are clear relationships that exist, and the main one that should concern you is Chalice plus SSG. In the past I wouldn't have played one without the other.
I'm not trying to argue that one card is better than the others either, but I'm debating which one has the most effect in the current meta. That's pretty much all I'm talking about. And yeah, of course SSG is played because it has a good synnergy with Chalice on the play
They're good together but they're not the backbone of a tier 1 deck. They're the backbone of a tier 2 (occasionally tier 3) deck. To talk as if they're core cards that you'd be crazy to go without - I think it demonstrates a failure to understand the big picture. With Gideon in the fold there's an opportunity to make a tier one deck but that doesn't mean all the same relationships can exist. You're going to have to ditch something to make room for Gideon. Did you consider how the double white mana in Gideon's casting cost affects the mana base, and how the SSG might not be fully simpatico with that? You have to be willing to question and throw away your assumptions. Maybe SSG is the right card to cut, I don't know.
You seem set in your ways, and that's fine for some people but it may mean you and I just won't be able to see eye-to-eye.
To begin with, tiers has nothing to do how "good" a deck is, it's about how much it's being played, by how many and how often it makes a top-8 standing, so I think it's a really bad starting point of a debate whether a card is good or not. It's common mistake to use "tiers" as a guideline as to what cards are good or not.
We could compare our deck (or maybe I should rather say my deck, cuz the landkill-variant is what I'm talking about to be clear) to instant re-animator, which also plays a full set of SSG. Why? They don't even play Chalices. Because it helps casting cards a turn earlier, which indeed gives them their win.
Stone Rain, Chalice of the Void or a single Magus of the Tabernacle isn't by itself half as strong and obvious as to putting a Griselbrand into play turn 2, but our decks are built to give us an advantage against our opponents in terms of tempo. My earlier answer was pretty much focused on trying to explain that SSG can be used to many agendas, not just the Chalice on turn 1.
Talking about Gideon, we can only theorize as It's not even released yet. And has nothing really in our departure to even compare with (a 3-drop Planeswalker that's not black, oh my!)
That being said, I won't play it in a landkill-list, as it's pretty much useless there... but It should be good in the Sun & Moon list, which I argued would play Leylines in their 75, but not to just stop bolts and targeted discards, as I believe that the Sun & Moon list definately should play a completet set of Chalices too (which gives double protection, so to speak).
Regarding the red mana you talk about... would you stop playing the full set of Blood Moons in the Sun & Moon list also, because Gideon is double white? Leyline is also double white, so is Wrath of God, and the old Gideon Jura... All these cards are already played in this kind of deck, and it's really only a few Sun & Moon lists that doesn't include the SSG. Theoretically, the "upcoming deck's" goal is not really to drop the new Gideon turn 3 anyway, wouldn't you agree?
Yeah, I do believe you need it in your starting hand. As the argument against playing without Leyline was that people can discard you turn 1... Well, surprise! If you don't draw your Leyline of Sanctity on your opening hand they can discard your hand all the way until you get 4 mana AND get to draw a Leyline ^^
If you have chalice in your starting hand, you also need to be on the play, and to have a SSG to stop discard.
If you have a leyline in your starting hand, you are protected from discard.
That is the argument for playing leylines over chalice in a discard heavy metagame.
If you dont have it in your opening hand, then it wont be able to stop turn 1 plays, because no card can do that. When people say "it doesnt need to be in your opening hand to be good", what they mean is not that it magically stops turn 1 discard without being in your opening hand, what they mean is that it is still a good card to topdeck later on, because it stops most of the ways that people try to win that are not by just attacking with creatures.
Yeah, it's true. Personally i also play 2 Gemstone Caverns to be able to cheat cards out even earlier if I have to. I know this card isn't for everyone, but I've even seen a couple of Sun & Moon lists playing it, and it works like a charm.
Regarding Leylines I would argue that in many matches we really need it in our starting hand for it to do anything before we're dead (Burn would kill us before we could play it turn 4, or just finish us off with something by that point. Instant-reanimator would also kill us before turn 4 with their "Borborygmos Enraged-Griselbrand combo". Jund would dismantle our hand and most probably have the boardpresence and handcontrol they need for a win, even if we land our Leyline turn 4, etc, etc...). What I mean is that there alot of better cards in these matchups we want to play turn 4, instead of dropping a Leyline. For example I would say that a Wrath of God would change the boardstate alot more than a Leyline by that point.
[quote]SSG is a grey ogre, not what I would call a decent beater. When you have fully locked out your opponent, and literally any card that deals damage can win the game, SSG can win the game. That does not make it an efficient beater, that just makes it a creature. Any creature with power >0 (and even a noble hierarch) can close the game in that situation.
It seems a little biased to act like SSG is an amazing topdeck throughout the game, and leyline is useless past the first turn.
Haha, yeah I know it's a 2/2 beater for 3, not really fantastic at all, but I mean... how often don't you see a Snapcaster beat an opponent to death when backed up by counterspells and/or removal? It's pretty much the same thing. In the landkill list the only wincons are mediocre beaters, as our beaters needs to do other stuff that just beat face (Dark-Dwellers gives us more value from our targeted landkill, Magus gives us control over our opponents creatures and SSG ramps our lock-pieces and other stuff). Maybe I used the wrong words, It's not a "decent" beater, but it's definately not a dead card when we need something to win our matches, and at the same time does things for us early game.
In the Sun & Moon deck I would say that SSG is a way worse topdeck, than in the landkill variant. But that's because the Sun & Moon has pretty much no use for a 2/2 creature for 3, when they win with planeswalkers.
This is, by the way my current list that has made top-8 on 5 out of 6 GPTs (25-35 participants) here in Europe the last year back.
Maybe it's obvious, but it's also the kind of landkill deck several of my earlier arguments are focusing on
The type of deck very much dictates the usefulness of Leyline, Chalice, Moon and SSG.
Its true that the more PWs you use the better the Leyline main is. I would never include it main in any version that runs landkill to any great extent, though. I am happy to run it in the board, but then I don't run SSG in the landkill versions, and t0 is thus more important against discard.
I have never had a problem with "bad top decks" mid game with landkill, on the grounds that when the deck works it will often draw redundant cards mid game- including extra landkill when they have no land to speak of. SSG works in landkill too, as does Gemstone Caverns. I generally find landkill is fast enough without them but if the meta speeds up I am happy to include them. I can see why Broken Prophet can't run Leylines in the board with the Nahiri package, and Runed Halo can do some of the Leyline work. On the draw not having Leyline is hard, on the play the ability to power into Chalice will make up for some of the loss of Leyline and make mid game draws better.
For PW based lists, specifically bridge lists, I want to main Leyline, Chalice and SSG.
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Do we have any consistent wincons in a RW Planeswalkerlist with maindeck Bridge? I mean, even if we play Nahiri, we can't really go combat with Emrakul or Gideon :/
Yeah, I've started using Runed Halo as it can also protect me from hard-to-handle creatures, as I'm only playing Anger as my only removal, and stopping other creatures (such as Goyfs) with Magus
Actually, I haven't been damaged that much by turn 1 discard on the draw. Maybe I just have a good matchup against Jund/Death's Shadow or I'm just lucky, but they rarely win against this kind of deck...
Would anyone be interested in some cockatrice playtesting? I'm happy to pilot other Tier 1 decks if someone will do the same. I'm trying to nail down a build for the next SCG Open; and I'd like to start testing some pieces from Amonkhet which is hard to do on MODO.
Do we have any consistent wincons in a RW Planeswalkerlist with maindeck Bridge? I mean, even if we play Nahiri, we can't really go combat with Emrakul or Gideon :/
Chandra / Ajani / Lightning Helix are the big ones that dont require us to swing.
I'm considering a bridge Planeswalker build with new Gideon with the ultimate goal of firing Chandra to close the game out; but I'm concerned thats just too slow of a clock.
Ajani's helixes seems a bit slow to have as a wincon.
Hmmm, wouldn't the new Gideon be better without Bridges? So you at least get some use for his prevention, and ability to swing?
I'd go for alot of removal, as in Wrath, Anger, maybe even an Obliterate if we go hard on devotion... but keep it bridgeless.
Do we have any consistent wincons in a RW Planeswalkerlist with maindeck Bridge? I mean, even if we play Nahiri, we can't really go combat with Emrakul or Gideon :/
Yeah, I've started using Runed Halo as it can also protect me from hard-to-handle creatures, as I'm only playing Anger as my only removal, and stopping other creatures (such as Goyfs) with Magus
Actually, I haven't been damaged that much by turn 1 discard on the draw. Maybe I just have a good matchup against Jund/Death's Shadow or I'm just lucky, but they rarely win against this kind of deck...
My own list has 2 Ajani, 2 Chandra and 1 Assemble the Legion as the permanent wincons. Most of the time once a hardlock is set, opponent will just scoop.
Assemble the Legion is horribly effective with Bridge, those 1/1s sneak in and then you empty your hand again. Its probably the best.
It also synergises with the Outpost Siege in the "wrong" mode.
Keldon Megaliths is slow but adds up the damage with a small burn package when combined with the odd card like Chandra and Ajani it can finish them off, but only if you don't have Blood Moon down.
I always wonder if Nahiri can summon one of the many enormous artifacts that end games one way or the other in EDH games without attacking.
Potentially Koth in VERY red lists, never tried it myself.
And for boarding, the odd Banefire is a cheeky way to end control lists, if they don't nerf your mana. It is a wasted board slot unless your LGS has nothing but Grixis and USA control players.
So all in all no, its Chandra, ATL and the odd useful burn spell before you enter Johnny-land.
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It's an awful topdeck, and what 4 cards would you trade out for it in the matchups you listed?
Personally I'm not that scared of a turn-1 discard. I let them do it, maybe because the list should be able to handle stuff like that. Yeah they could take your chalice, but usually my opponents really hate Boom/Bust or a simple stone rain on my starting hand, especially when they play 3 colors.
With the PW-package though I see much more use for it. So if I abandon this build I have now and start playing some Sun & Moon variant, I would probably go for 4 leyline in the SB.
All of these statements seem particularly odd in the context of this particular deck that runs so many cards that have a chance to do nothing.
Leyline has a chance to do nothing. Yep. So does Blood Moon or Chalice or Suppression Field. Yep.
Chalice is powerful but scattershot. It doesn't completely shut down anything, but there are specific important things that it does shut down and we can plan around that. Leyline - almost exactly the same. I welcome a debate but let's try to do better than to describe one in rosy terms and the other as if you can't see the value.
Leyline also stops Conflagrate in Dredge -- which is a pretty big deal. It also does a real number on Scapeshift, although you still have to win before they find a Disenchant effect. IMHO, Leyline is one of the main reasons to play this deck right now. If I were running MD chalice I imagine I'd be boarding them out every game for four Leylines.
E.g. The Bridge version of planeswalker control, Sun n Moon, plays well with main deck Leylines at at maximum, whereas a Sun and Moon build with a bit of landkill, as listed on the primer would not, and the regular versions may not, etc.
Fwiw, I like any RW 75 to have 4 Leyline, and, landkill lists aside, 3 RIP.
What's the consensus on this being an alternate win-con for Lockdown lists?
The effect triggers on cast makes this worth some consideration, despite the hefty 7-mana cost
Really though its main use would be in an environment where decks like Martyr Proc (not soul sisters) are top tier - resilient decks gaining an extraordinary amounts of life and repeatedly fog-ing/chomping whilst near uncounterably reanimating Martyrs or Fog Kamis. That environment is not Modern and likely will never be. You have to ask what problems does this card solve for a RW Prison, and the answer is probably "none". In fact this is probably better in a Martyr Proc style deck where they can get to 100 life and often not be able to close the game if its 6/6's Ascendants end up being Pathed.
I'm not saying it would go well in every iteration of the R/W Prison shell.
It could take the spot of AtL which is a 1 or 2 off in the Bridge lockdown lists. My reasoning would be that it provides the same inevitability & against blue decks, it's value would be higher due to how it's worded.
To my knowledge, it's not uncounterable. It's ability triggers upon casting so if it gets countered, the ability still happens if you cast a second one.
If this meta breakdown / trending continues in the next month or so, paired with the release of New Gideon - I think Sun and Moon is REALLY well positioned.
I'm going to the SCG Baltimore in May; and I'm increasingly thinking S&M is the way to go. (I also have Eldrazi / Death's Shadow on standby just in case)
Yeah, I do believe you need it in your starting hand. As the argument against playing without Leyline was that people can discard you turn 1... Well, surprise! If you don't draw your Leyline of Sanctity on your opening hand they can discard your hand all the way until you get 4 mana AND get to draw a Leyline ^^
I just don't think that the card is that good in the modern-meta anymore, at least not for this kind of deck. People can play it as much as they want, and if it's working out for them that's awesome! But it is a bad topdeck when your plan is to pretty much lock your opponents resources the first few turns in the game. When that's done you need a wincon, as in Nahiri, a beater or something else entirely.
Chalice is at least flexible. It has no demand of being on the opening hand (but as many cards are, it's good to have there). It can also be used during the match against different CMC's, depending on the matchup. In many matchups we can even put it on 2 or even 3, if we find that it helps the matchup.
Back to the debate I would argue that this is pretty much the order of how much impact (in the current modern meta) the 3 cards we're talking about has (still, this is my own personal opinion, so keep that in mind):
1. Suppression Field. Pretty much does ALOT against any kind of deck in the meta. The only 2 decks I can think of that it's not great against is Valakut and the random monogreen devotion aggrodeck that seems to see play now and then. I even keep my 4 MB against Burn, as they play ALOT of fetches, and when destroying their other lands is my combat-plan, they get stuck with fetches that gives no mana.
2. Blood Moon. Well, regarding how much nonbasics people play this is really good. Still, people know about this card and play alot of basics, and fetch as soon they can for the most important basics when they see us playing red.
3. Leyline of Sanctity. In some matches it's devastating, especially if we play it in the mainboard. But against several "good" decks it's useless (against Eldrazi Tron it pretty much only stops Thought-Knot Seer, against Naya Zoo it stops their 4 bolts, nothing more. Merfolk, Coco-Company and Affinity are decks that pretty much never target us either...)
It's also a decent beater that can win matches now and then, especially when the opponent has no lands and/or only has removal that costs 1 CMC.
For what it's worth I'm not suggesting that any of the cards is better than the others, but there are clear relationships that exist, and the main one that should concern you is Chalice plus SSG. In the past I wouldn't have played one without the other.
They're good together but they're not the backbone of a tier 1 deck. They're the backbone of a tier 2 (occasionally tier 3) deck. To talk as if they're core cards that you'd be crazy to go without - I think it demonstrates a failure to understand the big picture. With Gideon in the fold there's an opportunity to make a tier one deck but that doesn't mean all the same relationships can exist. You're going to have to ditch something to make room for Gideon. Did you consider how the double white mana in Gideon's casting cost affects the mana base, and how the SSG might not be fully simpatico with that? You have to be willing to question and throw away your assumptions. Maybe SSG is the right card to cut, I don't know.
You seem set in your ways, and that's fine for some people but it may mean you and I just won't be able to see eye-to-eye.
I'm not sure entirely how being presented that you are an experienced player is making polite points, but I may be missing something?
For the record, I didn't list effects that any card is good AGAINST, I listed the cards and decks they are BAD against. That means you must have read it wrong, and it's bit hard for me to answer regarding that Leyline is good against more effects than I listed :/
I'm not trying to argue that one card is better than the others either, but I'm debating which one has the most effect in the current meta. That's pretty much all I'm talking about. And yeah, of course SSG is played because it has a good synnergy with Chalice on the play
To begin with, tiers has nothing to do how "good" a deck is, it's about how much it's being played, by how many and how often it makes a top-8 standing, so I think it's a really bad starting point of a debate whether a card is good or not. It's common mistake to use "tiers" as a guideline as to what cards are good or not.
We could compare our deck (or maybe I should rather say my deck, cuz the landkill-variant is what I'm talking about to be clear) to instant re-animator, which also plays a full set of SSG. Why? They don't even play Chalices. Because it helps casting cards a turn earlier, which indeed gives them their win.
Stone Rain, Chalice of the Void or a single Magus of the Tabernacle isn't by itself half as strong and obvious as to putting a Griselbrand into play turn 2, but our decks are built to give us an advantage against our opponents in terms of tempo. My earlier answer was pretty much focused on trying to explain that SSG can be used to many agendas, not just the Chalice on turn 1.
Talking about Gideon, we can only theorize as It's not even released yet. And has nothing really in our departure to even compare with (a 3-drop Planeswalker that's not black, oh my!)
That being said, I won't play it in a landkill-list, as it's pretty much useless there... but It should be good in the Sun & Moon list, which I argued would play Leylines in their 75, but not to just stop bolts and targeted discards, as I believe that the Sun & Moon list definately should play a completet set of Chalices too (which gives double protection, so to speak).
Regarding the red mana you talk about... would you stop playing the full set of Blood Moons in the Sun & Moon list also, because Gideon is double white? Leyline is also double white, so is Wrath of God, and the old Gideon Jura... All these cards are already played in this kind of deck, and it's really only a few Sun & Moon lists that doesn't include the SSG. Theoretically, the "upcoming deck's" goal is not really to drop the new Gideon turn 3 anyway, wouldn't you agree?
Yeah, it's true. Personally i also play 2 Gemstone Caverns to be able to cheat cards out even earlier if I have to. I know this card isn't for everyone, but I've even seen a couple of Sun & Moon lists playing it, and it works like a charm.
Regarding Leylines I would argue that in many matches we really need it in our starting hand for it to do anything before we're dead (Burn would kill us before we could play it turn 4, or just finish us off with something by that point. Instant-reanimator would also kill us before turn 4 with their "Borborygmos Enraged-Griselbrand combo". Jund would dismantle our hand and most probably have the boardpresence and handcontrol they need for a win, even if we land our Leyline turn 4, etc, etc...). What I mean is that there alot of better cards in these matchups we want to play turn 4, instead of dropping a Leyline. For example I would say that a Wrath of God would change the boardstate alot more than a Leyline by that point.
Haha, yeah I know it's a 2/2 beater for 3, not really fantastic at all, but I mean... how often don't you see a Snapcaster beat an opponent to death when backed up by counterspells and/or removal? It's pretty much the same thing. In the landkill list the only wincons are mediocre beaters, as our beaters needs to do other stuff that just beat face (Dark-Dwellers gives us more value from our targeted landkill, Magus gives us control over our opponents creatures and SSG ramps our lock-pieces and other stuff). Maybe I used the wrong words, It's not a "decent" beater, but it's definately not a dead card when we need something to win our matches, and at the same time does things for us early game.
In the Sun & Moon deck I would say that SSG is a way worse topdeck, than in the landkill variant. But that's because the Sun & Moon has pretty much no use for a 2/2 creature for 3, when they win with planeswalkers.
Maybe it's obvious, but it's also the kind of landkill deck several of my earlier arguments are focusing on
Its true that the more PWs you use the better the Leyline main is. I would never include it main in any version that runs landkill to any great extent, though. I am happy to run it in the board, but then I don't run SSG in the landkill versions, and t0 is thus more important against discard.
I have never had a problem with "bad top decks" mid game with landkill, on the grounds that when the deck works it will often draw redundant cards mid game- including extra landkill when they have no land to speak of. SSG works in landkill too, as does Gemstone Caverns. I generally find landkill is fast enough without them but if the meta speeds up I am happy to include them. I can see why Broken Prophet can't run Leylines in the board with the Nahiri package, and Runed Halo can do some of the Leyline work. On the draw not having Leyline is hard, on the play the ability to power into Chalice will make up for some of the loss of Leyline and make mid game draws better.
For PW based lists, specifically bridge lists, I want to main Leyline, Chalice and SSG.
Yeah, I've started using Runed Halo as it can also protect me from hard-to-handle creatures, as I'm only playing Anger as my only removal, and stopping other creatures (such as Goyfs) with Magus
Actually, I haven't been damaged that much by turn 1 discard on the draw. Maybe I just have a good matchup against Jund/Death's Shadow or I'm just lucky, but they rarely win against this kind of deck...
Send me a PM if so.
edit:
Chandra / Ajani / Lightning Helix are the big ones that dont require us to swing.
I'm considering a bridge Planeswalker build with new Gideon with the ultimate goal of firing Chandra to close the game out; but I'm concerned thats just too slow of a clock.
Ajani's helixes seems a bit slow to have as a wincon.
Hmmm, wouldn't the new Gideon be better without Bridges? So you at least get some use for his prevention, and ability to swing?
I'd go for alot of removal, as in Wrath, Anger, maybe even an Obliterate if we go hard on devotion... but keep it bridgeless.
My own list has 2 Ajani, 2 Chandra and 1 Assemble the Legion as the permanent wincons. Most of the time once a hardlock is set, opponent will just scoop.
It also synergises with the Outpost Siege in the "wrong" mode.
Keldon Megaliths is slow but adds up the damage with a small burn package when combined with the odd card like Chandra and Ajani it can finish them off, but only if you don't have Blood Moon down.
I always wonder if Nahiri can summon one of the many enormous artifacts that end games one way or the other in EDH games without attacking.
Potentially Koth in VERY red lists, never tried it myself.
And for boarding, the odd Banefire is a cheeky way to end control lists, if they don't nerf your mana. It is a wasted board slot unless your LGS has nothing but Grixis and USA control players.
So all in all no, its Chandra, ATL and the odd useful burn spell before you enter Johnny-land.