Chalice of the Void is a fickle beast, but can end your opponent's game if you play it right by killing their hand and/or draws or combo. You almost always X=2 for Affinity because while they may have a chance to cast their 2 cmc stuff, you preventing them from doing that effectively leaves them with no outs, just a bunch of weenies (plus it locks them out of Ancient Grudge they'd use for it OR Amulet of Vigor). X=0 is almost always a trap, but can seriously crap on their t1 if they kept an explosive hand with Mox Opals and weenies. Yeah, all of their win cards are 2 cmc, so it's a risk you have to take if you want to slow them down indefinitely.
Against Twin, it's X=3 and 100% conditional. If they're going for the beat-down plan, stopping their combo pieces and Vendilion Cliques translates to a mostly gimped game for them. If they're trying to race you and you don't think you can X=3, X=1 slows them down, but likely not enough against UR Twin. I'm mostly used to RUG and BUR Twin where it's more applicable to do X=1 or X=2. TBH, Engineered Explosives is not so bad against all Twin builds..
Dromoka is great against twin, burn, affinity. It stabilizes like no other card we have does. Definitely worth a 1 of sideboard slot, and I understand people that play 1 main.
I think Kanister is misunderstanding her purpose, it's not just another threat and not meant to be a counter to grixis, but against agressive decks with her huge butt and lifelink.
And it's not the first threat you get against twin, first you find protection from the combo, then her. You are using her wrong.
Chalice of the Void is a fickle beast, but can end your opponent's game if you play it right by killing their hand and/or draws or combo. You almost always X=2 for Affinity because while they may have a chance to cast their 2 cmc stuff, you preventing them from doing that effectively leaves them with no outs, just a bunch of weenies (plus it locks them out of Ancient Grudge they'd use for it OR Amulet of Vigor). X=0 is almost always a trap, but can seriously crap on their t1 if they kept an explosive hand with Mox Opals and weenies. Yeah, all of their win cards are 2 cmc, so it's a risk you have to take if you want to slow them down indefinitely.
Against Twin, it's X=3 and 100% conditional. If they're going for the beat-down plan, stopping their combo pieces and Vendilion Cliques translates to a mostly gimped game for them. If they're trying to race you and you don't think you can X=3, X=1 slows them down, but likely not enough against UR Twin. I'm mostly used to RUG and BUR Twin where it's more applicable to do X=1 or X=2. TBH, Engineered Explosives is not so bad against all Twin builds..
I find engineered explosives on 3 better and easier to cast against twin. Might not lock them out, but 3 mana is a lot less than 6. And it's not meant to win the game, just give you a littlr more time..
I am a huge fan of ancient stirrings and the consistency it gives. I was on 4 ancient stirrings but reading this thread I have found that a lot of you advocate for 2 spirit guides so I figured that one stirrings was a good cut. Wurmcoil in the main (instead of dromoka) to give relevancy to stirrings in the late game is not something that I've seen discussed for stirrings builds so I'd like to see what you guys think about it. I didn't really like dromoka to begin with as I never really found it crucial to have.
As a side note explosives over slaughter pact because I always hated drawing pact and explosives gives another tutorable answer that also has a little more utility.
Cut the gb bounceland as slaughter pact was removed and I figured one less bounce wouldn't hurt as much in a stirrings build. Replaced it with maindeck ghost quarter. I also really like the temple and the filtering it can allow for. I used to be playing an island in the spot but I'm greedy and it has been performing really well.
EE is sort of like the third pyroclasm but with wider applications. I'm not sure on the numbers with the sweepers, but I feel like 3 sweepers in the side is good.
I agree with what you said about melira/ruric thar. Melira out.
Gonna make the ghost quarter a dismember. I really don't like slaughter pact tbh.
Obviously, the deck is a little less explosive, but has more answers to common issues titan bloom runs up against. I'm on the fence about Borborygmos Enraged only because I haven't tested him out. Titan bloom tends to suffer from 'gets there or doesn't get there', so I think he is a good addition to a 27-land deck as he provides reach or removal and digs. Maybe I'd go for another Remand in his place. The Wurmcoil Engine is there for a similar reason and to help balance/recover in a disrupted game. Plus you can Ancient Stirrings for it! Tell me what you think!
Hi everyone, I'm just starting to learn this amazing deck, and I'm currently in the process of reading through this thread to see what kind of ideas have been discussed so that when I jump in I don't just raise the same questions that everyone asks. But I need your help. I've purchased the deck and played a few games on MTGO, and I just can't seem to play fast enough, I've now lost 2/4 2 mans simply by virtue of being too slow. Now I get that it's going to take me a bit to learn how to run MTGO, but it's certainly frustrating losing a few tix while I learn how to operate the clunky mess that is MTGO.
Any tips specific to playing this deck online? Should I be using auto yields for the bounce and amulet triggers? for everything? How many stops do you set? How often do you F6? Basically anything that you can suggest would be great, as I love the deck so far, but the mechanics of playing it on MTGO feels like stabbing myself in the eye with a spoon, repeatedly.
I kind of feel like Bloom without Hive Mind is pretty easy to deal with for a lot of decks. Hive Mind is less consistent yes, but it's also usually a safe win condition, much safer than Prime Time. I kind of like the idea of Borby though.
Out of curiousity, does anyone have experience with Karn in this deck? Is 7 just too awkward to cast? I feel like he could be slotted into the deck fairly well-- you can grab him with Stirrings can't you?
That is a good point. While we're on the subject then-- what kind of things are on the table as alternate win cons? I like the idea of Sigarda and Dromoka though they are probably best left as sideboard cards. Is primeval titan and hive mind really as good as it gets?
That is a good point. While we're on the subject then-- what kind of things are on the table as alternate win cons? I like the idea of Sigarda and Dromoka though they are probably best left as sideboard cards. Is primeval titan and hive mind really as good as it gets?
Probably, unless you know of other good 6-drops. There's a huge difference between this deck and RG Tron because of how much mana we make and of what type. RG Tron is going to make 7 mana on turn 3, all of it colourless. That's why they look at Karn or Wurmcoil, because those are good cards that are colourless. For us, we're making 6 mana on turn 2, which means Karn isn't nearly as effective. I don't want to wait to go off, I'm going off as soon as I have the chance to.
One of the nice things about Primeval Titan and Hive Mind is that they work well together. Karn and Wurmcoil don't particularly synergize, but Titan and Hive Mind have a lot. Summoner's Pact, which kills with Hive Mind, can find Titan. Titan fetches lands making the upkeep cost more easily payable, or payable on turns you otherwise wouldn't be able to do so. Titan can also find Tolaria West and Simic Growth Chamber to transmute for Pact.
I don't particularly think our problems stem from a lack of win conditions, it's more of a consistency issue. Our cards, individually, don't do much. Most of our deck doesn't do anything on its own, we need multiple cards, at the right time. I find that I just brick more often than someone has outs to my win conditions.
All I know of other mb wincons I've seen other than titan and hive mind, and some sb cards that get mb occasionally like Dromoka and Wurmcoil, are things like Consecrated Sphinx and Grave Titan. basically just value 6 drops. And even then I've only seen them as 1-ofs if at all. I agree with our issue being consistency, as I'd say the majority of times I've whiffed I've had a major threat in hand, just no way to get it out.
All I know of other mb wincons I've seen other than titan and hive mind, and some sb cards that get mb occasionally like Dromoka and Wurmcoil, are things like Consecrated Sphinx and Grave Titan. basically just value 6 drops. And even then I've only seen them as 1-ofs if at all. I agree with our issue being consistency, as I'd say the majority of times I've whiffed I've had a major threat in hand, just no way to get it out.
While Sphinx and Titan certainly have their merits, you have to recall that we're making only certain coloured mana. You have 9/10 bounce lands that produce green mana, but usually not as many that produce blue or black. You usually get four blue and one black, so something like Titan or Sphinx are a lot harder to cast. Hive Mind costs one blue, remember. It makes you a lot more limited in what cards you can play as the big threats to have the consistency you're looking for.
All I know of other mb wincons I've seen other than titan and hive mind, and some sb cards that get mb occasionally like Dromoka and Wurmcoil, are things like Consecrated Sphinx and Grave Titan. basically just value 6 drops. And even then I've only seen them as 1-ofs if at all. I agree with our issue being consistency, as I'd say the majority of times I've whiffed I've had a major threat in hand, just no way to get it out.
While Sphinx and Titan certainly have their merits, you have to recall that we're making only certain coloured mana. You have 9/10 bounce lands that produce green mana, but usually not as many that produce blue or black. You usually get four blue and one black, so something like Titan or Sphinx are a lot harder to cast. Hive Mind costs one blue, remember. It makes you a lot more limited in what cards you can play as the big threats to have the consistency you're looking for.
Yeah I'm not advocating for them I'm just saying that's what I've seen before. I personally wouldn't run either. I believe a deck with Grave Titan got second at a SCG invitational and a saw a Consecrated Sphinx do good in a mtgo daily. That's the only place I've ever seen the two being played.
That is a good point. While we're on the subject then-- what kind of things are on the table as alternate win cons? I like the idea of Sigarda and Dromoka though they are probably best left as sideboard cards. Is primeval titan and hive mind really as good as it gets?
Tooth and Nail? It's not a creature, therefore not tutorable and it costs too much to entwine. The answer is that as far as 6 cmc green beaters go, Primeval Titan is as good as it gets because of his ability. His ability has the potential to not only hit for 8 or 16 (or more if you run Kessig Wolf Run and have all the mana forever), but grab your utility lands, to potentially save you. I've landed a Primeval Titan and grabbed my Khalni Garden and a bounce land to have a target to sacrifice for a Liliana of the Veil on board, or Radiant Fountain for some life, OR (my favorite) Tolaria West for back up pacts or lands. So yes, because of the 27ish lands you run and Primeval Titan ability and tutorability, that's seemingly as good as it gets (and it's pretty good).
I could see going for something more tempo-centered rather than finding another beater for a strategy that already works with the current pieces. Prophet of Kruphix + creatures or Seedborn Muse + control?
Has anyone considered Root Maze against fast decks and Affinity/Tron? What about Bear Umbra? Seems hilarious.
Borborygmos Enraged Wow, i never thought about him... 5 lands is enough to kill a lot of deck. i often find myself at the end of the game with too many lands in my hand... not sure about your idea of cutting hivemind. I often sb it out and make a midrange G deck but i feel its good game 1 even in bad matchup. I think you need at least a Pact of Negation to play Titan into Tolaria West into Pact of Negation. Anyways Borborygmos worth testing.
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Kakwann, Lvl 39 Sorcerer
Currently Playing
Standard:GWRU 4C Collected Company Modern:GUWRB Bloom Titan Legacy:BUG SHARDLESS BUG
EDH : GR BORBORYGMOS ENRAGED GU PRIME SPEAKER ZEGENA UWR ZEDRUU THE GREATHEARTED UBR MISHRA ARTIFICER PRODIGY B SHEOLDRED WHISPERING ONE R ASHLING THE PILGRIM
Pact of Negation is worth just as much as having any other Counterspell in hand, except you get the jump on your opponent if they don't know you have one and you're tapped out. Unless you top deck it or get it via Serum Visions, your opponent usually knows you have it in hand. Just the other night, I was up against a BUR Twin deck and he Inquisition of Kozilek'd my Remand and baited my Pact of Negation so he could combo out.
A Hive Mind win is great, don't get me wrong, but I see Titan Bloom's biggest two problems as being uninteractive/unresponsive to your opponent and lacking t3/t4 win consistency because there are too many puzzle pieces. Hive Mind is another puzzle piece to deal with, so if I can swap it for better consistency (like more digs or more answers to your opponent); it may be something worth entertaining.
Borborygmos Enraged Wow, i never thought about him... 5 lands is enough to kill a lot of deck. i often find myself at the end of the game with too many lands in my hand... not sure about your idea of cutting hivemind. I often sb it out and make a midrange G deck but i feel its good game 1 even in bad matchup. I think you need at least a Pact of Negation to play Titan into Tolaria West into Pact of Negation. Anyways Borborygmos worth testing.
Yes! His ability, if you have lands in hand, provides immediate answers to creature threats OR reach for late game. If you can make it to swinging in with him, his ability + if you have any lands in hand is usually enough to seal the game if it's all sent to the dome.
Lol, how about Waves of Aggression? You could tutor a bounce land and always have fodder for retrace? COULD BE A THING! YOU COULD DO IT INDEFINITELY! *snickers*
How would waves of aggresion make the deck more consistent lol. In which matchups is Borborygmos better than Hive Mind? He is worse when you are looking to race, and dies to removal with no value against disruption-packed fair decks. He is not even a Giant, but a Cyclops, so he requires his own Cavern.
I was just tossing ideas out. I think you could build a deck around getting Waves of Aggression out with a Primeval Titan, unfortunately though, you'll still need an Amulet of Vigor to give him haste, but at least you can kill your opponent on the spot with the method I mentioned earlier.
And ole Borby Borbs is strictly worse, but mostly because of his wacky cmc. He would give the deck great reactions and reach though, but he costs too much as is.
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I never said Dragonlord Dromoka was a cure-all, but she shines in the MUs I mentioned above.
And to clarify, I'm only advocating Dragonlord Dromoka as a SB option, not MB. Plus I prefer Ancient Stirrings to Sleight of Hand.
Against Twin, it's X=3 and 100% conditional. If they're going for the beat-down plan, stopping their combo pieces and Vendilion Cliques translates to a mostly gimped game for them. If they're trying to race you and you don't think you can X=3, X=1 slows them down, but likely not enough against UR Twin. I'm mostly used to RUG and BUR Twin where it's more applicable to do X=1 or X=2. TBH, Engineered Explosives is not so bad against all Twin builds..
Chalice of the Void shines in different MUs like G/r Tron and Storm
I think Kanister is misunderstanding her purpose, it's not just another threat and not meant to be a counter to grixis, but against agressive decks with her huge butt and lifelink.
And it's not the first threat you get against twin, first you find protection from the combo, then her. You are using her wrong.
I find engineered explosives on 3 better and easier to cast against twin. Might not lock them out, but 3 mana is a lot less than 6. And it's not meant to win the game, just give you a littlr more time..
1x Boros Garrison
2x Cavern of Souls
1x Forest
4x Gemstone Mine
1x Ghost Quarter
2x Gruul Turf
1x Khalni Garden
1x Mana Confluence
1x Radiant Fountain
2x Selesnya Sanctuary
4x Simic Growth Chamber
1x Slayers' Stronghold
1x Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
1x Temple of Mystery
3x Tolaria West
1x Vesuva
2x Azusa, Lost but Seeking
4x Primeval Titan
2x Simian Spirit Guide
1x Wurmcoil Engine
Sorcery (11)
3x Ancient Stirrings
4x Serum Visions
4x Summer Bloom
Instant (6)
2x Pact of Negation
4x Summoner's Pact
Artifact (5)
4x Amulet of Vigor
1x Engineered Explosives
Enchantment (2)
2x Hive Mind
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ghost Quarter
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1x Nature's Claim
2x Pyroclasm
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1x Seal of Primordium
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
2x Swan Song
1x Thragtusk
I am a huge fan of ancient stirrings and the consistency it gives. I was on 4 ancient stirrings but reading this thread I have found that a lot of you advocate for 2 spirit guides so I figured that one stirrings was a good cut. Wurmcoil in the main (instead of dromoka) to give relevancy to stirrings in the late game is not something that I've seen discussed for stirrings builds so I'd like to see what you guys think about it. I didn't really like dromoka to begin with as I never really found it crucial to have.
As a side note explosives over slaughter pact because I always hated drawing pact and explosives gives another tutorable answer that also has a little more utility.
Cut the gb bounceland as slaughter pact was removed and I figured one less bounce wouldn't hurt as much in a stirrings build. Replaced it with maindeck ghost quarter. I also really like the temple and the filtering it can allow for. I used to be playing an island in the spot but I'm greedy and it has been performing really well.
Sideboard is up in the air.
I agree with what you said about melira/ruric thar. Melira out.
Gonna make the ghost quarter a dismember. I really don't like slaughter pact tbh.
Here's a possibly more consistent version of the deck:
2 boros garrison
2 gruul turf
4 gemstone mine
2 tendo ice bridge
3 tolaria west
1 forest
1 island
1 cavern of souls
1 radiant fountain
1 vesuva
1 khalni garden
1 mana confluence
1 slayers' stronghold
1 sunhome, fortress of the legion
1 temple of mystery
2 azusa, lost but seeking
3 simian spirit guide
1 wurmcoil engine
1 borborygmos enraged
3 remand
4 summoner's pact
4 amulet of vigor
4 serum visions
3 ancient stirrings
4 summer bloom
1 ruric thar, the unbowed
1 hornet queen
1 dragonlord dromoka
1 sigarda, host of herons
1 bojuka bog
1 ghost quarter
1 crucible of worlds
3 chalice of the void
3 leyline of sanctity
2 engineered explosives
Obviously, the deck is a little less explosive, but has more answers to common issues titan bloom runs up against. I'm on the fence about Borborygmos Enraged only because I haven't tested him out. Titan bloom tends to suffer from 'gets there or doesn't get there', so I think he is a good addition to a 27-land deck as he provides reach or removal and digs. Maybe I'd go for another Remand in his place. The Wurmcoil Engine is there for a similar reason and to help balance/recover in a disrupted game. Plus you can Ancient Stirrings for it! Tell me what you think!
Any tips specific to playing this deck online? Should I be using auto yields for the bounce and amulet triggers? for everything? How many stops do you set? How often do you F6? Basically anything that you can suggest would be great, as I love the deck so far, but the mechanics of playing it on MTGO feels like stabbing myself in the eye with a spoon, repeatedly.
I kind of feel like Bloom without Hive Mind is pretty easy to deal with for a lot of decks. Hive Mind is less consistent yes, but it's also usually a safe win condition, much safer than Prime Time. I kind of like the idea of Borby though.
Out of curiousity, does anyone have experience with Karn in this deck? Is 7 just too awkward to cast? I feel like he could be slotted into the deck fairly well-- you can grab him with Stirrings can't you?
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Probably, unless you know of other good 6-drops. There's a huge difference between this deck and RG Tron because of how much mana we make and of what type. RG Tron is going to make 7 mana on turn 3, all of it colourless. That's why they look at Karn or Wurmcoil, because those are good cards that are colourless. For us, we're making 6 mana on turn 2, which means Karn isn't nearly as effective. I don't want to wait to go off, I'm going off as soon as I have the chance to.
One of the nice things about Primeval Titan and Hive Mind is that they work well together. Karn and Wurmcoil don't particularly synergize, but Titan and Hive Mind have a lot. Summoner's Pact, which kills with Hive Mind, can find Titan. Titan fetches lands making the upkeep cost more easily payable, or payable on turns you otherwise wouldn't be able to do so. Titan can also find Tolaria West and Simic Growth Chamber to transmute for Pact.
I don't particularly think our problems stem from a lack of win conditions, it's more of a consistency issue. Our cards, individually, don't do much. Most of our deck doesn't do anything on its own, we need multiple cards, at the right time. I find that I just brick more often than someone has outs to my win conditions.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
While Sphinx and Titan certainly have their merits, you have to recall that we're making only certain coloured mana. You have 9/10 bounce lands that produce green mana, but usually not as many that produce blue or black. You usually get four blue and one black, so something like Titan or Sphinx are a lot harder to cast. Hive Mind costs one blue, remember. It makes you a lot more limited in what cards you can play as the big threats to have the consistency you're looking for.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Yeah I'm not advocating for them I'm just saying that's what I've seen before. I personally wouldn't run either. I believe a deck with Grave Titan got second at a SCG invitational and a saw a Consecrated Sphinx do good in a mtgo daily. That's the only place I've ever seen the two being played.
Tooth and Nail? It's not a creature, therefore not tutorable and it costs too much to entwine. The answer is that as far as 6 cmc green beaters go, Primeval Titan is as good as it gets because of his ability. His ability has the potential to not only hit for 8 or 16 (or more if you run Kessig Wolf Run and have all the mana forever), but grab your utility lands, to potentially save you. I've landed a Primeval Titan and grabbed my Khalni Garden and a bounce land to have a target to sacrifice for a Liliana of the Veil on board, or Radiant Fountain for some life, OR (my favorite) Tolaria West for back up pacts or lands. So yes, because of the 27ish lands you run and Primeval Titan ability and tutorability, that's seemingly as good as it gets (and it's pretty good).
I could see going for something more tempo-centered rather than finding another beater for a strategy that already works with the current pieces. Prophet of Kruphix + creatures or Seedborn Muse + control?
Has anyone considered Root Maze against fast decks and Affinity/Tron? What about Bear Umbra? Seems hilarious.
Standard: GWRU 4C Collected Company
Modern: GUWRB Bloom Titan
Legacy: BUG SHARDLESS BUG
EDH :
GR BORBORYGMOS ENRAGED
GU PRIME SPEAKER ZEGENA
UWR ZEDRUU THE GREATHEARTED
UBR MISHRA ARTIFICER PRODIGY
B SHEOLDRED WHISPERING ONE
R ASHLING THE PILGRIM
A Hive Mind win is great, don't get me wrong, but I see Titan Bloom's biggest two problems as being uninteractive/unresponsive to your opponent and lacking t3/t4 win consistency because there are too many puzzle pieces. Hive Mind is another puzzle piece to deal with, so if I can swap it for better consistency (like more digs or more answers to your opponent); it may be something worth entertaining.
Yes! His ability, if you have lands in hand, provides immediate answers to creature threats OR reach for late game. If you can make it to swinging in with him, his ability + if you have any lands in hand is usually enough to seal the game if it's all sent to the dome.
Hey all, let's consider Chromanticore/Maelstrom Archangel/Empyrial Archangel/Rafiq of the Many/Glint-Eye Nephilim *dodges rotten veggies*
Lol, how about Waves of Aggression? You could tutor a bounce land and always have fodder for retrace? COULD BE A THING! YOU COULD DO IT INDEFINITELY! *snickers*
I was just tossing ideas out. I think you could build a deck around getting Waves of Aggression out with a Primeval Titan, unfortunately though, you'll still need an Amulet of Vigor to give him haste, but at least you can kill your opponent on the spot with the method I mentioned earlier.
And ole Borby Borbs is strictly worse, but mostly because of his wacky cmc. He would give the deck great reactions and reach though, but he costs too much as is.