wow this deck has evolved so much, when amulets came out some (oriental) in MTGO came with a list really interesting then a bouch of us in this forums builds a really fastand complicated combo with tooth and nail, im so happy the idea of combing fromlands isnt lost :')
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Originally Posted by sephirothx
Trust me, if your choice is between Jace in the mail or a girl in your bed, take the girl and wait for Jace to rotate. Even when you lose in bed, you still win...kinda.
I've recently taken an interest and started reading up on everything there is on this deck. I feel like I understand it pretty well except for one key question: T3/4 titan without amulet in play, what's best to search for? Thinking about it made me pick wolf run + gardens (because goldfishing vs no opponent) though I assume sometimes getting TW bounced to hand is better for resiliency? What's the general line here?
Goldfish went as follows. May have misremembered some of the order in which I drew these cards, but I think the lands I played & spells I cast were straightforward.
Hand: Bloom, City of Brass, Serum Visions, Gemstone Mine, Green Pact, Simic Growth Chamber, Gruul Turf
T1: Play Gemstone Mine, cast Serum Visions drawing Azusa
Scry 2 shows Tolaria West and Green Pact, I bottomed both, though as I type this I think maybe I would want TW in hand?
T2: Draw Bloom, Play CoB, cast Bloom, play Simic, Gruul, Gemstone
T3: Draw Simic, Play CoB, Cast Titan, Search Kessig & Khalni
T4: Draw Gruul, Swing with Titan? Search for what? Or do I just accept the two turn clock at this point?
EDIT: Also isn't stirrings better than SSG with all the GBx in the current meta?
I've recently taken an interest and started reading up on everything there is on this deck. I feel like I understand it pretty well except for one key question: T3/4 titan without amulet in play, what's best to search for? Thinking about it made me pick wolf run + gardens (because goldfishing vs no opponent) though I assume sometimes getting TW bounced to hand is better for resiliency? What's the general line here?
I think it really depends on the matchup. If they have a way to kill the Titan and you don't have another Titan in hand, I would fetch Tolaria West + a blue source if you need one. Even without Amulet, you could transmute for another pact the following turn if need be. Most of the deck is mana and draw, you don't want to run out of gas and punt the game if they kill your Titan, so IMO having a backup plan to go fetch Titan #2 is more valuable than trying to squeeze max value out of Titan #1, unless you are really confident that your Titan will live to untap. Remember that Slaughter Pact is a card, as is Path. Generally speaking, my most common first fetch is Tolaria West and a blue source, unless I'm already holding a Pact / Tolaria West or a second Titan - even if I have amulet and could go for garrison + slayer's stronghold. Why? Because you go for garrison + stronghold, point it at Titan, and they respond by killing Titan, and you could be just done if you don't have another Titan or Pact available. Garrison + Stronghold is fun and when your opponent is tapped out and you're relatively confident they don't have Slaughter Pact, it's great fun to live the dream, but don't let goldfishing suck you into going all in on a play that can be beaten by any card that can kill a green 6/6. You will give up more games that way, it's better to be cautious and just throw Titan after Titan at them until they crumble.
Very helpful replies. Still trying to learn more though!
What would you guys say are the toughest decisions to make with this deck? What's a scenario that you remember thinking 'boy I really don't know what to do here.'
Some scenario description thing of commonly occurring hard to play setups and what to do in them.
Additionally, is it normal that sometimes you just don't get there and mull to 4 before having a hand that's at least somewhat doable. What's the minimum keepable 7, 6, or even 5 for you?
EDIT: More scenarios!
Hand: Bloom, Serum, Titan, SSG, bridge, seles, gruul
T1 bridge serum, draw tolaria. Scry shows summoner's pact and gemstone mine.
I bottom the gemstone, with titan + tolaria in hand, do I want the pact or do I bottom it hoping for amulet topdeck for the t2 titan?
In general is resiliency the more valuable than possibly going off a turn faster? Or does this depend on the matchup?
I feel like this deck isn't necessarily hard to play, it just rewards excellent knowledge of matchups and what decks can do. Which I like!
EDIT number thousand: Isn't mana confluence better than city of brass?
Very helpful replies. Still trying to learn more though!
What would you guys say are the toughest decisions to make with this deck? What's a scenario that you remember thinking 'boy I really don't know what to do here.'
Really my biggest problem is mulliganing correctly. Once playing, really the only difficult choices are, 'Is it safe to run out the Amulet now or should I save it?", "What happens if Pact / Titan gets countered - can I recover?", "what should I fetch first with Titan?", and "should I risk the Stronghold haste play or could I get blown out?"
Additionally, is it normal that sometimes you just don't get there and mull to 4 before having a hand that's at least somewhat doable. What's the minimum keepable 7, 6, or even 5 for you?
Well, I have a hard time justifying keeping any hand without a Pact or Titan, unless it has great digging power (double Serum maybe). But there's only so far you can risk mulling for a win con, even though the deck packs eight effective titans plus some number of hive mind. I think mulling below five is really risky because you need to have a certain minimum amount of material to go off with, and mulling to four could give you a hand with, say, bloom, titan, two lands and then they just Thoughtseize you to nail the coffin shut. I'd rather take a risky five than ever go down to four. I'm not really sure how I would strictly define a minimum keepable hand, but at 7 or 6 I am looking for a hand with a win con (summoner's pact, titan, or hive mind + pact) and acceleration that could get me to a t3 titan. There are so many different ways to accelerate in the deck that it's hard to list specific cards, though some forms of acceleration are stronger than others. At 5 I am getting desperate so I will basically take anything halfway decent. SSG (for those who run it) is really only worth taking if the hand can be explosive (ie., titan no later than t2). If the hand can't do a t2 titan, or if you fear a thoughtseize, I think you ought to consider the SSG a blank and treat the hand as if it's already a six-card, and mull it if you need to. This is why some don't run the SSG, or board them out when they're going to be on the draw. Me, I feel that there are enough decks out there that just have a hard time ever recovering from a t2 titan even if they kill it promptly, that it's worth the risk. Unless they have a white mana source up, you can pretty much safely go for the Stronghold haste because they couldn't pay for Slaughter Pact even if they have it. The freedom of being able to do that makes the t2 titan fuelled by SSG explosiveness very attractive.
I also can't speak highly enough of how well Sakura-Tribe Scout has been playing for me. Obviously the opponent wants to save removal for the Titan. But if they leave the Scout alive they have no real hope of stopping the acceleration and allow us to play all sorts of tricks. Scout allows us to board in things like Bojuka Bog and Sejiri Steppe to hold as "counters" to certain strategies, by bringing them in at instant speed. If they don't remove the Scout, it is possible to make it such a thorn in their side that you can either accelerate or provide a threat of disruption. (Remember that Scout plus any bounceland in hand = point destruction at your lands is hopeless.) If they do remove the Scout, then they have one less removal for a Titan. Love it.
In the scenario you mention, it depends on the oppo. If they might have discard (ie. Thoughtseize etc), how will your hand survive? If you ship the pact and they hit your hand and take the Titan, you could run out of gas. Alternatively, if they don't have disruption and you keep the pact but don't hit the amulet, you miss t2 titan. I think how you play this one depends on what resistance you expect to face. If I was confident in not seeing disruption, I'd ship the pact. But if I was on the play and knew nothing of the opponent, I wouldn't risk it. They will probably take the Bloom instead then, leaving you with two titans and no accel. But your deck is loaded with accel and it is very likely you will hit something to help you ramp out. I'd rather be holding excess win cons and top decking for accel, than holding accel and top decking for a win con.
I definitely opt for resiliency, despite running the SSG's. Any explosive hand has to be looked at from the angle of, "what happens if this hand runs into disruption, can it keep going or does it fall apart?" And if the chance of disruption is too high it's better to mull for something more resilient even if it's a bit slower. A t3 Titan is quite common even off a mull to six or five, and is still nothing to sneer at.
On Mana Confluence: yes, it's strictly better than City, but you don't really need either. 4 Tendo, 4 Gemstone Mine gives you eight rainbow lands that cost zero life. My two other color-producing untap lands are Caverns of Souls, which can name anything I need to name and be bounced and replayed naming Giant for the Titan turn.
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I'm not sure if i constructed the mana base correctly or not. maybe i have too many bounce lands? or maybe not enough?
Hi, TheRogue! Thanks for posting your list.
The primary concern I have with it is not so much too few bouncelands, but too few lands in general. I think without at least 27 you're pushing your luck, and many lists run 28. The Coursers let you dig a bit so maybe you could go 27 with them... but 25 seems like you're pushing it. If you don't have three lands to drop what good is Summer Bloom?
I like Courser in Standard but the following hold true IMO: He's not remotely as good as Azusa, but is harder to cast. 1 life per land might help you grind out vs. burn but is not otherwise very relevant. And don't forget that his lifegain trigger lets your opponent profitably cheat you out of his ability if they want. He doesn't actually accelerate you (he doesn't add land drops), all he does is let you get past a land glut on top - and give away information in the process. This is why I prefer Sakura-Tribe Scout. Cheap as all get-out, quasi-Exploration that can bring in lands at instant speed for shenanigans.
Another issue I have with your mana base is you are running some cards I just don't get (teetering) and others in too many duplicates (khalni, vesuva). You have no lifegain land available to you, nor any scrying effect. I would want at least one Radiant Fountain / Kabira Crossroads to fetch. Also, in the process of adding lands, you should seriously consider one or more Cavern of Souls. The ability to just laugh at countermagic is quite nice.
Overall my suggested alterations re: manabase would be: -1 Khalni, -1 Vesuva, -1 Teetering, +1 Temple of Mystery, +1 Radiant Fountain, +1-2 Cavern of Souls, +1 bounceland (seles or golgari, doesn't matter), +1-2 Tendo Ice Bridge or some other untapped rainbow land. 11 bouncelands will help you keep the ratio of bounces to non-bounces right, and another untapped rainbow land will help it all come together better.
I am also trying to figure out why we would want Git Probe over Serum Visions. It merely cantrips, it doesn't dig. What good is it to us, really, to peek the oppo's hand? It adds marginal value to Pact of Negation (ie., we know if a spell is a bluff not worth countering), but this information's value fades after a turn or two and frankly most of the spells we need to worry about with this deck are obvious when cast (blood moon, for example). This is a kind of noninteractive deck in a lot of ways, what good is knowing the opponent's hand when we don't run any hand disruption or anything that needs to name a problem, like Meddling Mage? I would go with Serum Visions or Ancient Stirrings here. We are a combo deck and need to dig for combo pieces. It seems your list is basically relying on Courser to do that and I think Courser starts digging too late and too slowly to really help us much. If we have to wait on Titan until t4 it's not really that spectacular a combo... we could have just done Elf -> Cultivate to get the same results if all we wanted was t4 Titan. We want t2 or at least t3 Titan, or a reasonable shot at it. For that we need digging and fast acceleration to both come online in the first couple turns.
I have been really liking Ancient Stirrings over Simian Spirit Guide. The deck just feels so much more consistent with Stirrings to me. Being able to dig for an Amulet(if you have a bounceland) or a bounceland(if you have an Amulet) turn 1 helps set up the t2-3, and just feels so important here.. It can also grab EE, Chalice, and T-West if it comes down to it. I would rather have a little bit more consistency, than to sometimes be faster.
I have also been playing Slayers, Sunhome, and Kessig. I started off just running just Slayers, and Sunhome, but in testing Kessig really does feel pretty awesome. It just gives you even more options, and that's one of the reasons this deck is so good. Not to mention sometimes Sunhome can be in your hand, milled, discarded, destroyed, etc, so having more outs can be nice. In grindy matches Kessig kills it, and it's pretty easy to slide it in. I can't see a good reason not to play 1 really.
I also can't see any reason for running City of Brass/ Mana Confluence. Even if most of the time the life loss doesn't matter.. you don't need that life loss at all. Bridge and Mine give you all the pain free colored mana you'll ever need, and the bounce lands keep them fresh.
my thought process on teetering peak was using it with vesuva i could have back up plan for pumping up the titan if stronghold and sunhome were not online.
-i'll drop a khalni for radiant fountain
-i was going to use tribe scout originally but for some reason all the stores in my area or sold out, how such a thing happened i dunno
-i'll drop the probes for serum visions.
i know courser of kruphix can be dangerous in giving information away but in my testing i sort of liked the life gain. though I am running out of things to cut for more land and he is the most temping spot to cut. I liked him also as a wall and that he is bolt proof. unlike oracle of mul daya he doesn't have the extra land drop, but oracle does die to bolt, and the extra land drop might not be necessary from that slot either.
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Hey guys, I've been testing this deck on and off on cockatrice the last few weeks or so as I am trying to decide whether or not I want to invest on it in paper. The answer is a resounding yes. I've been having great success and have been keeping a list of my games, opposing decks ("Real" decks only for the sake of space), and overall record. Cockatrice being Cockatrice there have been a few major players in the meta that I have barely encountered (Pod, Affinity, U/W/R) but for anyone interested this is what I have at this point. I am using Lord commander snow's main deck with my own sideboard consisting of
3x Leyline of sanct
3x Seal of primordium
2x Creeping corrosion
2x Chalice of the void
2x Firespout
1x Pyroclasm
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Ghost Quarter
B/G/Jund/Junk Match Record 6-0. Games 12-2.
Tron(Both) Match Record 4-0. Games 8-0
U/R Delver Match Record 3-1. Games 7-3
Burn Match Record 2-1. Games 5-3
U/R Twin Match Record 2-0. Games 4-1
U/B Faeries Match Record 1-1. Games 3-2
Boggles Match Record 1-0. Games 2-0
Melira Pod Match Record 1-0. Games 2-0
Kiki Pod Match Record 0-1. Games 1-2
Goryo's Veng Match Record 1-0. Games 2-0
B/W Tokens Match Record 1-0. Games 2-0
Mono G Nykthos Match Record 1-0. Games 2-1
8-Rack Match Record 1-0. Games 2-1
U/W/R Match Record 1-0. Games 2-0
Thanks for your interest!
It's definitely a tricky matchup but they usually don't put too fast of a clock on you T5/6 at earliest, so while g1 your hand will probably be picked apart by discard you still have time to get there eventually, and have plenty of time to win games you have no business winning with a hive mind pact. post-board games i tend to mull a 7 card hand that doesn't have either resiliency whether it be leyline or just multiples, or any hand that can make a t2 titan or hive mind I tend to keep as well. If I don't find a leyline by 5 cards I just resign myself to playing that hand if at all possible. The games where you find it you can just do your own thing basically uncontested and usually ride titan/mind to victory.
Leyline gets sided in primarily against B/G/x, and Burn, but is also nice against Faeries, Rack, and any Gifts decks that may be running around your meta.
I agree that U/R twin is a much worse matchup for us than my record shows. A lot of the time there's just nothing you can do to stop a t4 combo so don't bother playing around it unless you can somehow contest it. The fact that they also bring out blood moon from board is also nasty.
I came across this deck twice at GP Boston, both times played by really nice guys who were talented pilots, they both 2-0'd me and my 4c gifts deck handily. What does this deck fold to, whats the crippling hate? If I was mulling to hand of something, in the abstract which is better abrupt decay or path to exile? As a deck that hold off the hivemind combo and pay for more pacts than any other deck, I feel like I should be able to have more game against this deck than I do. I don't think its worth metagaming against specifically given the % of the meta playing against, but I did feel I was coming up really short in effective ways to interact even outside of my unfamiliarity with a number of the interactions.
I know its an unorthodox question, but outside of also hosing myself with a blood moon I got nothing.
i went 1 and 3 tonight for my first time trying it. never got a oepning hand with amulet of vigor in it. got lots of azusa, lost but seeking's in my openers but all to often she came down too late and I didn't have any lands to drop after wards. I got to titan many times but he came too late.
is sakura-tribe scout possibly better than azusa since you can drop it turn 1?
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I personally don't like Sakura-Tribe Scout all that much, but i can see why people like it. That beiing said, i don't think there is anyway it's better than Azusa. Azusa gives you 3 land drops to make 6 mana with, and you can sometimes play her t2 with some luck.
It's a shame you never got any early Amulets though. Maybe you were having bad luck? Did you end up running Serum Visions and/or Ancient Stirrings? because those are essential in finding that early Amulet.
I actually only run 1 pact md. I've found you rarely need more than 1 in g1. We run 3 Tolaria West, so it's easy to fetch a Pact or Cavern of Souls if you need it.
Against BG/x i usually just side in Leyline of Sanctity and that's about it. I think it's important to note how amazing Khalni Garden is in that match though. I saw in another post you where going to take it out, which i advise against. Garden lets you play around Liliana and other edict effects. Being able to grab a Garden with Titan can be a life saver.
Don't give up on the deck though. I know i was losing a lot at first.. Mostly just because the deck is so unique. It's hard to see all the lines that are available right away.
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Not just the Tendo King, the power of the Galactic Leyline surpasses that of the Tempa Emperor, No!, It's magnificent power is even greater than that!
i thing i noticed happening to me though was the mid range decks were able to apply so much early pressure that once titan landed I couldn't afford to go on the offensive otherwise i'd be open to the reverse attack. the same somewhat goes for affinity, game 3 against affinity i burst titan out on turn 4 but couldn't save myself from his following attack.
i'm just not sure how to handle that situation since titan is your main play at 6 mana, but your vulnerable to be flown over or outraced before you can get titan pumped for 10/6 double strike the following turn.
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Tribe-Scout isn't better than Azusa, but you can only realistically run three Azusa without getting fouled up by the legend rule. And of other available options, Tribe-Scout is the best second-best option we have IMO.
Also, TheRogue, in that situation I'd not go for the haste but go get two lifegain lands, gain 4, and try to live through the turn. On my next turn the Titan attack can go fetch mana + Sunhome, or whatever. Most of them aren't running many shocklands, so they're not likely to be in a situation where they are forced to put their team in front of a 10/6 double striker just to survive, so going all out is unlikely to save you. But then, how much is the Titan even able to block? Affinity is full of flyers that can wear Plating or Ensoul Artifact.
also would it be worth while to run the flying land? Soaring Seacliff?
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In my opinion an early Leyline is key to winning the BGx matchup. That and Khalni Garden. The latter i actually wasn't playing for a while, but Khalni is so good for so many reasons, and here most importantly, it can get your Titan through a Liliana which is super important. But Leyline shuts off all their discard which leaves them with only Lili as disruption. Generally they don't have the craziest clock and a Leyline alone gives you a few turns to sculpt and inch your way into a winning position. I obviously try to find fast hands, but i try to find that Leyline more than anything. I found Gbx will try to keep heavy discard hands g2 and Leyline can really screw them up.
I know Leyline isn't the greatest but getting destroyed by discard is no fun. I actually run into a lot of burn and 8-Rack, and even the occasional Mill deck so i don't mind playing the Leylines, but i could see them maybe being unnecessary in the right meta. Right now, with the resurgence of BGx though, they seem pretty decent.
As for Affinity, i agree, i take out Hivemind and Cavern, for Seals, Chalice, and Sweepers. Chalice though, i actually only bring in if i'm on the play, and try to drop it on 0. Otherwise i leave it in the board.
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Hey everyone. New to this deck so I have been acquiring the pieces play it, but I haven't been able to find any Azusa, Lost but Seeking. So I was wondering what folks opinions were on the next best thing... Journey of Discovery or Sakura-Tribe Scout? Thanks!
gave the deck another trie tonight went awesome to a 4-0.
i played the list i've linked before for the most part with only a 1 or 2 card difference.
I made my sideboard in haste and it might look like crap at first glance, but some how worked for me tonight. I could use some advice to make a real sideboard for the deck.
may match ups were tron, Bug control/agro, red blue storm, and Junk.
game 1 I raced tron to death killing them, game 2 sided in 4 seals but didn't see a single one, slow but i got a amulet out for comboing only to have it nature's claimed, so i threw in the towel when karn hit, game 3, i swapped out some of the seals for the 1 dispel and 1 swansong and same situation as game 2 but this time i had the dispel to stop natures claim.
the BUG deck wrecked my hand game 1 by making me discard azusa and amulet with them being on the play, I assume this is a common problem for any of the match ups what have BlaCk discard spells? lost game 1
games 2 and game 3 i got good starting hands, didn't use amulet but managed to get titan to go off for game 2 and game 3 hive mind for the wins, but both of these games he didn't have an opener of black discard.
this match up has me wondering if I should change the sideboard to run a number of leyline of sanctity? opinions?
against storm I didn't get any fast hands but game 1 i land a azusa and a courser of kruphix i got so many land drops off i pumped my life total to 35 and he had to double grapeshot for 20 to kill me, took him a while to build up, wish i had a pact of negation to stop his first ritual.
game 2 i put in 4 seal of primordium and the random trickbind and 1 dispel. took out coursers. not sure what is considered decent sideboard for this match up. all i could think of was he was siding in blood moon so i needed to have seal ready to bomb it or even his pyromancer's ascension. his deck didn't work this game at all.
i think the 1 of dispel will become another swansong as that can hit critical enchantments.
4th match up was against junk, finally had something to board those combusts in for as I saw he had pridemage in the main and knight of the reliquary. i got double amulet game 1 for over kill after landing azusa into primtime. game 2, he got stuck on mana, I landed a hivemind, cast a second summer's bloom and pact of negationed targeting bloom on the stack, the hivemind copies allowing the trigger to kill him on his upkeep.
combust isn't for this match up but i see enough splinter twin and blue white red control running celestial colonnade and restoration angel i think its a useful sideboard card for any deck running red.
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playing:vintage: BDARK' timesB
legacy: WWdeath n' taxisWW
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Goldfish went as follows. May have misremembered some of the order in which I drew these cards, but I think the lands I played & spells I cast were straightforward.
T1: Play Gemstone Mine, cast Serum Visions drawing Azusa
Scry 2 shows Tolaria West and Green Pact, I bottomed both, though as I type this I think maybe I would want TW in hand?
T2: Draw Bloom, Play CoB, cast Bloom, play Simic, Gruul, Gemstone
T3: Draw Simic, Play CoB, Cast Titan, Search Kessig & Khalni
T4: Draw Gruul, Swing with Titan? Search for what? Or do I just accept the two turn clock at this point?
EDIT: Also isn't stirrings better than SSG with all the GBx in the current meta?
I think it really depends on the matchup. If they have a way to kill the Titan and you don't have another Titan in hand, I would fetch Tolaria West + a blue source if you need one. Even without Amulet, you could transmute for another pact the following turn if need be. Most of the deck is mana and draw, you don't want to run out of gas and punt the game if they kill your Titan, so IMO having a backup plan to go fetch Titan #2 is more valuable than trying to squeeze max value out of Titan #1, unless you are really confident that your Titan will live to untap. Remember that Slaughter Pact is a card, as is Path. Generally speaking, my most common first fetch is Tolaria West and a blue source, unless I'm already holding a Pact / Tolaria West or a second Titan - even if I have amulet and could go for garrison + slayer's stronghold. Why? Because you go for garrison + stronghold, point it at Titan, and they respond by killing Titan, and you could be just done if you don't have another Titan or Pact available. Garrison + Stronghold is fun and when your opponent is tapped out and you're relatively confident they don't have Slaughter Pact, it's great fun to live the dream, but don't let goldfishing suck you into going all in on a play that can be beaten by any card that can kill a green 6/6. You will give up more games that way, it's better to be cautious and just throw Titan after Titan at them until they crumble.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
What would you guys say are the toughest decisions to make with this deck? What's a scenario that you remember thinking 'boy I really don't know what to do here.'
Some scenario description thing of commonly occurring hard to play setups and what to do in them.
Additionally, is it normal that sometimes you just don't get there and mull to 4 before having a hand that's at least somewhat doable. What's the minimum keepable 7, 6, or even 5 for you?
EDIT: More scenarios!
Hand: Bloom, Serum, Titan, SSG, bridge, seles, gruul
T1 bridge serum, draw tolaria. Scry shows summoner's pact and gemstone mine.
I bottom the gemstone, with titan + tolaria in hand, do I want the pact or do I bottom it hoping for amulet topdeck for the t2 titan?
In general is resiliency the more valuable than possibly going off a turn faster? Or does this depend on the matchup?
I feel like this deck isn't necessarily hard to play, it just rewards excellent knowledge of matchups and what decks can do. Which I like!
EDIT number thousand: Isn't mana confluence better than city of brass?
Really my biggest problem is mulliganing correctly. Once playing, really the only difficult choices are, 'Is it safe to run out the Amulet now or should I save it?", "What happens if Pact / Titan gets countered - can I recover?", "what should I fetch first with Titan?", and "should I risk the Stronghold haste play or could I get blown out?"
Well, I have a hard time justifying keeping any hand without a Pact or Titan, unless it has great digging power (double Serum maybe). But there's only so far you can risk mulling for a win con, even though the deck packs eight effective titans plus some number of hive mind. I think mulling below five is really risky because you need to have a certain minimum amount of material to go off with, and mulling to four could give you a hand with, say, bloom, titan, two lands and then they just Thoughtseize you to nail the coffin shut. I'd rather take a risky five than ever go down to four. I'm not really sure how I would strictly define a minimum keepable hand, but at 7 or 6 I am looking for a hand with a win con (summoner's pact, titan, or hive mind + pact) and acceleration that could get me to a t3 titan. There are so many different ways to accelerate in the deck that it's hard to list specific cards, though some forms of acceleration are stronger than others. At 5 I am getting desperate so I will basically take anything halfway decent. SSG (for those who run it) is really only worth taking if the hand can be explosive (ie., titan no later than t2). If the hand can't do a t2 titan, or if you fear a thoughtseize, I think you ought to consider the SSG a blank and treat the hand as if it's already a six-card, and mull it if you need to. This is why some don't run the SSG, or board them out when they're going to be on the draw. Me, I feel that there are enough decks out there that just have a hard time ever recovering from a t2 titan even if they kill it promptly, that it's worth the risk. Unless they have a white mana source up, you can pretty much safely go for the Stronghold haste because they couldn't pay for Slaughter Pact even if they have it. The freedom of being able to do that makes the t2 titan fuelled by SSG explosiveness very attractive.
I also can't speak highly enough of how well Sakura-Tribe Scout has been playing for me. Obviously the opponent wants to save removal for the Titan. But if they leave the Scout alive they have no real hope of stopping the acceleration and allow us to play all sorts of tricks. Scout allows us to board in things like Bojuka Bog and Sejiri Steppe to hold as "counters" to certain strategies, by bringing them in at instant speed. If they don't remove the Scout, it is possible to make it such a thorn in their side that you can either accelerate or provide a threat of disruption. (Remember that Scout plus any bounceland in hand = point destruction at your lands is hopeless.) If they do remove the Scout, then they have one less removal for a Titan. Love it.
In the scenario you mention, it depends on the oppo. If they might have discard (ie. Thoughtseize etc), how will your hand survive? If you ship the pact and they hit your hand and take the Titan, you could run out of gas. Alternatively, if they don't have disruption and you keep the pact but don't hit the amulet, you miss t2 titan. I think how you play this one depends on what resistance you expect to face. If I was confident in not seeing disruption, I'd ship the pact. But if I was on the play and knew nothing of the opponent, I wouldn't risk it. They will probably take the Bloom instead then, leaving you with two titans and no accel. But your deck is loaded with accel and it is very likely you will hit something to help you ramp out. I'd rather be holding excess win cons and top decking for accel, than holding accel and top decking for a win con.
I definitely opt for resiliency, despite running the SSG's. Any explosive hand has to be looked at from the angle of, "what happens if this hand runs into disruption, can it keep going or does it fall apart?" And if the chance of disruption is too high it's better to mull for something more resilient even if it's a bit slower. A t3 Titan is quite common even off a mull to six or five, and is still nothing to sneer at.
On Mana Confluence: yes, it's strictly better than City, but you don't really need either. 4 Tendo, 4 Gemstone Mine gives you eight rainbow lands that cost zero life. My two other color-producing untap lands are Caverns of Souls, which can name anything I need to name and be bounced and replayed naming Giant for the Titan turn.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
does my list have any problems glaring problems i should change?
3 azusa, lost but seeking
3 courser of kruphix
4 gitaxian probe
4 summer bloom
4 summoner's pact
1 slaughter pact
3 pact of negation
3 hive mind
4 amulet of vigor
1 sunhome, fortress of the legion
1 slayers' stronghold
1 teetering peaks
2 vesuva
2 khalni garden
4 simic growth chamber
4 gruul turf
1 selesnya sanctuary
1 boros garrison
4 gemstone mine
1 forest
I'm not sure if i constructed the mana base correctly or not. maybe i have too many bounce lands? or maybe not enough?
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Hi, TheRogue! Thanks for posting your list.
The primary concern I have with it is not so much too few bouncelands, but too few lands in general. I think without at least 27 you're pushing your luck, and many lists run 28. The Coursers let you dig a bit so maybe you could go 27 with them... but 25 seems like you're pushing it. If you don't have three lands to drop what good is Summer Bloom?
I like Courser in Standard but the following hold true IMO: He's not remotely as good as Azusa, but is harder to cast. 1 life per land might help you grind out vs. burn but is not otherwise very relevant. And don't forget that his lifegain trigger lets your opponent profitably cheat you out of his ability if they want. He doesn't actually accelerate you (he doesn't add land drops), all he does is let you get past a land glut on top - and give away information in the process. This is why I prefer Sakura-Tribe Scout. Cheap as all get-out, quasi-Exploration that can bring in lands at instant speed for shenanigans.
Another issue I have with your mana base is you are running some cards I just don't get (teetering) and others in too many duplicates (khalni, vesuva). You have no lifegain land available to you, nor any scrying effect. I would want at least one Radiant Fountain / Kabira Crossroads to fetch. Also, in the process of adding lands, you should seriously consider one or more Cavern of Souls. The ability to just laugh at countermagic is quite nice.
Overall my suggested alterations re: manabase would be: -1 Khalni, -1 Vesuva, -1 Teetering, +1 Temple of Mystery, +1 Radiant Fountain, +1-2 Cavern of Souls, +1 bounceland (seles or golgari, doesn't matter), +1-2 Tendo Ice Bridge or some other untapped rainbow land. 11 bouncelands will help you keep the ratio of bounces to non-bounces right, and another untapped rainbow land will help it all come together better.
I am also trying to figure out why we would want Git Probe over Serum Visions. It merely cantrips, it doesn't dig. What good is it to us, really, to peek the oppo's hand? It adds marginal value to Pact of Negation (ie., we know if a spell is a bluff not worth countering), but this information's value fades after a turn or two and frankly most of the spells we need to worry about with this deck are obvious when cast (blood moon, for example). This is a kind of noninteractive deck in a lot of ways, what good is knowing the opponent's hand when we don't run any hand disruption or anything that needs to name a problem, like Meddling Mage? I would go with Serum Visions or Ancient Stirrings here. We are a combo deck and need to dig for combo pieces. It seems your list is basically relying on Courser to do that and I think Courser starts digging too late and too slowly to really help us much. If we have to wait on Titan until t4 it's not really that spectacular a combo... we could have just done Elf -> Cultivate to get the same results if all we wanted was t4 Titan. We want t2 or at least t3 Titan, or a reasonable shot at it. For that we need digging and fast acceleration to both come online in the first couple turns.
Hope this helps!
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
This is what i have been running-
4 Primeval Titan
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Hive Mind
--Combo--
4 Amulet of Vigor
4 Summer Bloom
3 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
--Search--
4 Serum Visions
4 Ancient Stirrings
--Disruption--
1 Pact of Negation
1 Slaughter Pact
--Land--
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Slayers' Stronghold
1 Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Vesuva
1 Radiant Fountain
1 Khalni Garden
3 Tolaria West
3 Gruul Turf
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Boros Garrison
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Tendo Ice Bridge
1 Forest
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Seal of Primordium
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Firespout
1 Pyroclasm
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Pact of Negation
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
I have been really liking Ancient Stirrings over Simian Spirit Guide. The deck just feels so much more consistent with Stirrings to me. Being able to dig for an Amulet(if you have a bounceland) or a bounceland(if you have an Amulet) turn 1 helps set up the t2-3, and just feels so important here.. It can also grab EE, Chalice, and T-West if it comes down to it. I would rather have a little bit more consistency, than to sometimes be faster.
I have also been playing Slayers, Sunhome, and Kessig. I started off just running just Slayers, and Sunhome, but in testing Kessig really does feel pretty awesome. It just gives you even more options, and that's one of the reasons this deck is so good. Not to mention sometimes Sunhome can be in your hand, milled, discarded, destroyed, etc, so having more outs can be nice. In grindy matches Kessig kills it, and it's pretty easy to slide it in. I can't see a good reason not to play 1 really.
I also can't see any reason for running City of Brass/ Mana Confluence. Even if most of the time the life loss doesn't matter.. you don't need that life loss at all. Bridge and Mine give you all the pain free colored mana you'll ever need, and the bounce lands keep them fresh.
thank you for the insights.
my thought process on teetering peak was using it with vesuva i could have back up plan for pumping up the titan if stronghold and sunhome were not online.
-i'll drop a khalni for radiant fountain
-i was going to use tribe scout originally but for some reason all the stores in my area or sold out, how such a thing happened i dunno
-i'll drop the probes for serum visions.
i know courser of kruphix can be dangerous in giving information away but in my testing i sort of liked the life gain. though I am running out of things to cut for more land and he is the most temping spot to cut. I liked him also as a wall and that he is bolt proof. unlike oracle of mul daya he doesn't have the extra land drop, but oracle does die to bolt, and the extra land drop might not be necessary from that slot either.
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3x Leyline of sanct
3x Seal of primordium
2x Creeping corrosion
2x Chalice of the void
2x Firespout
1x Pyroclasm
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Ghost Quarter
B/G/Jund/Junk Match Record 6-0. Games 12-2.
Tron(Both) Match Record 4-0. Games 8-0
U/R Delver Match Record 3-1. Games 7-3
Burn Match Record 2-1. Games 5-3
U/R Twin Match Record 2-0. Games 4-1
U/B Faeries Match Record 1-1. Games 3-2
Boggles Match Record 1-0. Games 2-0
Melira Pod Match Record 1-0. Games 2-0
Kiki Pod Match Record 0-1. Games 1-2
Goryo's Veng Match Record 1-0. Games 2-0
B/W Tokens Match Record 1-0. Games 2-0
Mono G Nykthos Match Record 1-0. Games 2-1
8-Rack Match Record 1-0. Games 2-1
U/W/R Match Record 1-0. Games 2-0
It's definitely a tricky matchup but they usually don't put too fast of a clock on you T5/6 at earliest, so while g1 your hand will probably be picked apart by discard you still have time to get there eventually, and have plenty of time to win games you have no business winning with a hive mind pact. post-board games i tend to mull a 7 card hand that doesn't have either resiliency whether it be leyline or just multiples, or any hand that can make a t2 titan or hive mind I tend to keep as well. If I don't find a leyline by 5 cards I just resign myself to playing that hand if at all possible. The games where you find it you can just do your own thing basically uncontested and usually ride titan/mind to victory.
Leyline gets sided in primarily against B/G/x, and Burn, but is also nice against Faeries, Rack, and any Gifts decks that may be running around your meta.
I agree that U/R twin is a much worse matchup for us than my record shows. A lot of the time there's just nothing you can do to stop a t4 combo so don't bother playing around it unless you can somehow contest it. The fact that they also bring out blood moon from board is also nasty.
I came across this deck twice at GP Boston, both times played by really nice guys who were talented pilots, they both 2-0'd me and my 4c gifts deck handily. What does this deck fold to, whats the crippling hate? If I was mulling to hand of something, in the abstract which is better abrupt decay or path to exile? As a deck that hold off the hivemind combo and pay for more pacts than any other deck, I feel like I should be able to have more game against this deck than I do. I don't think its worth metagaming against specifically given the % of the meta playing against, but I did feel I was coming up really short in effective ways to interact even outside of my unfamiliarity with a number of the interactions.
I know its an unorthodox question, but outside of also hosing myself with a blood moon I got nothing.
is sakura-tribe scout possibly better than azusa since you can drop it turn 1?
- is running 3 pact of negation too much in the md?
how do you sideboard against the rock, and twin?
against twin i brought in nature's claim and swansong that seemed adaquet but i forgot to make my sideboard have combust which i always prefer.
against rock i got no clue, i only brought in engineered explosives so i could kill his tarmogoyfs.
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It's a shame you never got any early Amulets though. Maybe you were having bad luck? Did you end up running Serum Visions and/or Ancient Stirrings? because those are essential in finding that early Amulet.
I actually only run 1 pact md. I've found you rarely need more than 1 in g1. We run 3 Tolaria West, so it's easy to fetch a Pact or Cavern of Souls if you need it.
Against BG/x i usually just side in Leyline of Sanctity and that's about it. I think it's important to note how amazing Khalni Garden is in that match though. I saw in another post you where going to take it out, which i advise against. Garden lets you play around Liliana and other edict effects. Being able to grab a Garden with Titan can be a life saver.
Against Twin i side in Pact of Negations, Slaughter Pacts, and Seal of Primordium.
Don't give up on the deck though. I know i was losing a lot at first.. Mostly just because the deck is so unique. It's hard to see all the lines that are available right away.
i'm just not sure how to handle that situation since titan is your main play at 6 mana, but your vulnerable to be flown over or outraced before you can get titan pumped for 10/6 double strike the following turn.
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Also, TheRogue, in that situation I'd not go for the haste but go get two lifegain lands, gain 4, and try to live through the turn. On my next turn the Titan attack can go fetch mana + Sunhome, or whatever. Most of them aren't running many shocklands, so they're not likely to be in a situation where they are forced to put their team in front of a 10/6 double striker just to survive, so going all out is unlikely to save you. But then, how much is the Titan even able to block? Affinity is full of flyers that can wear Plating or Ensoul Artifact.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
also would it be worth while to run the flying land? Soaring Seacliff?
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I know Leyline isn't the greatest but getting destroyed by discard is no fun. I actually run into a lot of burn and 8-Rack, and even the occasional Mill deck so i don't mind playing the Leylines, but i could see them maybe being unnecessary in the right meta. Right now, with the resurgence of BGx though, they seem pretty decent.
As for Affinity, i agree, i take out Hivemind and Cavern, for Seals, Chalice, and Sweepers. Chalice though, i actually only bring in if i'm on the play, and try to drop it on 0. Otherwise i leave it in the board.
i played the list i've linked before for the most part with only a 1 or 2 card difference.
I made my sideboard in haste and it might look like crap at first glance, but some how worked for me tonight. I could use some advice to make a real sideboard for the deck.
2 wurmcoil engine
2 combust
1 tectonic edge
1 relic or progenitus
4 seal of primordium
2 anger of the gods
1 trickbind
1 dispel
1 swansong
may match ups were tron, Bug control/agro, red blue storm, and Junk.
game 1 I raced tron to death killing them, game 2 sided in 4 seals but didn't see a single one, slow but i got a amulet out for comboing only to have it nature's claimed, so i threw in the towel when karn hit, game 3, i swapped out some of the seals for the 1 dispel and 1 swansong and same situation as game 2 but this time i had the dispel to stop natures claim.
the BUG deck wrecked my hand game 1 by making me discard azusa and amulet with them being on the play, I assume this is a common problem for any of the match ups what have BlaCk discard spells? lost game 1
games 2 and game 3 i got good starting hands, didn't use amulet but managed to get titan to go off for game 2 and game 3 hive mind for the wins, but both of these games he didn't have an opener of black discard.
this match up has me wondering if I should change the sideboard to run a number of leyline of sanctity? opinions?
against storm I didn't get any fast hands but game 1 i land a azusa and a courser of kruphix i got so many land drops off i pumped my life total to 35 and he had to double grapeshot for 20 to kill me, took him a while to build up, wish i had a pact of negation to stop his first ritual.
game 2 i put in 4 seal of primordium and the random trickbind and 1 dispel. took out coursers. not sure what is considered decent sideboard for this match up. all i could think of was he was siding in blood moon so i needed to have seal ready to bomb it or even his pyromancer's ascension. his deck didn't work this game at all.
i think the 1 of dispel will become another swansong as that can hit critical enchantments.
4th match up was against junk, finally had something to board those combusts in for as I saw he had pridemage in the main and knight of the reliquary. i got double amulet game 1 for over kill after landing azusa into primtime. game 2, he got stuck on mana, I landed a hivemind, cast a second summer's bloom and pact of negationed targeting bloom on the stack, the hivemind copies allowing the trigger to kill him on his upkeep.
combust isn't for this match up but i see enough splinter twin and blue white red control running celestial colonnade and restoration angel i think its a useful sideboard card for any deck running red.
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