Yeah I think I'm gonna play rug because a lot of my testing has shown that I really want a threat on t2 or t4 with a counterspell and while tasigir is higher card, my deck really wants the turn 2 er/threat. I know you're grixis but does anyone wanna work on a list later?
Hey guys, I played the Grixis version yesterday in my LGS, went 2-2. Won against Gifts Midrange and Abzan, lost to Mardu Tokens and Bogles. I was wondering, how integral do you guys think the Cryptics are to our strategy? I played a removal heavy version with no Shackles (lot's of decks with Kolaghan's Command in my store), and the Cryptics make the mana of the deck really taxing. I was thinking in removing them completely and bringing the Shackles back. For reference, the list I played (the sideboard is atrocious, I pieced together in the last minute, I had to leave in a rush to not be late):
By the way, did you guys see the Gerry Thompson articles where he discuss his deck choices for the upcoming Invitational? He considers Grixis Control, just cutting the Shackles. And his tech against the mirror and Grixis Delver (which he thinks will be extremely popular) is 3 copies of Leyline of the Void in the sideboard, which sounds good.
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One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
Is there any reason we don't play all snow lands and skred? Seems better than roast! Could also play a swan or 2 but that's 100% way too cute its be a board card
Skred is worse than Lightning Bolt until turn 4 even if you play a snow land every turn. It can't kill what Roast can kill until turn 5 at best. It is not a good card.
I just came from a local modern tournament, playing almost Jessup's 75 (added terminate to MD). I went 0-2 after playing UW Tron (1-2 loss), and RG Tron(0-2 loss) in rounds one and two, respectively. I feel like the matchup isn't as good for for URb list as I had originally thought. I will break down what happened, in each game, and some sideboard advice/advice on the matchup in general would be appreciated.
Round 1: UW Gifts Tron
Game 1 I never see bloodmoon, but his hand seems to be pretty bad. I try to race him with Tasigur and Snap bolts, as I never drew any counter magic, except for one spell snare, so this was my only option. I got him to 6, then he resolves a gifts flashes back unburial rites to get elesh norn, wipes my snapcaster, and after some running bricks off the top, I quickly die to Elesh+Colonnade.
Sideboard plan: *I did not have access to graveyard hate in my board due to last minuteness*
-manaleak x3
-roast x1
-remand x1
+Vclique x2
+Keranos x1
+Jace AoT x1
Game 2 I land turn 2 Tasigur, turn 3 blood moon, turn 4 Jace, turn 5 vclique and close the game out swiftly.
Game 3 Again, I never see blood moon. After grinding, he resolves a gifts into Aiona, naming black. I am unable to draw cryptic to remove it, and the terminate in my hand is dead. I die in 2 swings.
In hindsight, if I had spellbombs, or Leyline of the Void, this matchup probably would have been a lot easier.
Round 2: RG Tron
Game 1: He mulligans to 5, and I keep a hand (on the play) of double thought scour, sulfur falls, blood moon, serum visions, bolt x2. I did this because I knew he was on RG Tron, and if I hit land drops I could close the game with blood moon. Turn 1, tapped land pass, turn 2 visions, finding a 2nd land and scrying one on top. Turn 3 I slam moon with 1 island, 1 swamp, sulfur falls in play. After a few turns of pinging with snaps and bolts, I get him to 5. He has been hitting land drops this whole time, and hard casts wurmcoil. I have no way over it. He then resolves Karn and locks the game up.
Sideboard Plan:
-shackles x2
-Roast x1
-Remand x1
+Vclique x2
+Jace AoT x1
+ Kohlagan's command
Game 2: I play blood moon turn 3, he responds with assembling tron, popping a star into dig spell to find a Karn. I play Tasigur and pass turn turn 4 with 3 mana (UUR) up, and vclique in hand. At this point, I am feeling like the game is locked up. I cast vclique in his draw step, revealing a hand of double oblivion stone, karn, and 2 lands. I take the Karn. He casts O-stone. I fail to find Kohlagans command off the top, and he wipes the board, and follows up with Ugin. A series of useless draws later, and he wins.
Post game thoughts: I think this matchup is slightly in our favor (60-40), and is dependent upon being able to resolve blood moon, and then keeping them off of O-Stone, while simultaneously presenting a respectable clock. The issue that I have with the URb deck currently is its lack of consistency (I am used to playing Draw-Go Esper). Unlike the UR moon list, we don't get to play multiple remands, spreading seas, and 4 cryptics to buy time/ensure that we always see our cards early game. Which gives Tron a lot of time to just start hardcasting threats.
I would appreciate any feedback/advice concering the URb moon list and the Tron matchup.
Post game thoughts: I think this matchup is slightly in our favor (60-40), and is dependent upon being able to resolve blood moon, and then keeping them off of O-Stone, while simultaneously presenting a respectable clock. The issue that I have with the URb deck currently is its lack of consistency (I am used to playing Draw-Go Esper). Unlike the UR moon list, we don't get to play multiple remands, spreading seas, and 4 cryptics to buy time/ensure that we always see our cards early game. Which gives Tron a lot of time to just start hardcasting threats.
I would appreciate any feedback/advice concering the URb moon list and the Tron matchup.
How are you concluding that the matchup is slightly in your favor when you claim it's dependent on you resolving a Blood Moon and keeping them off Oblivion Stone and presenting a reasonable clock? If beating them is dependent on all of those things lining up, that sounds like a bad matchup... which, incidentally, it is. I play GR Tron and I've played against Blue Moon, and I've always felt like it was a great matchup for me. Note also that postboard they'll bring in Nature's Claims to destroy your Blood Moons, meaning even stopping Oblivion Stone won't necessarily protect your Blood Moons.
As for how to beat Tron... well, you basically gave the explanation there yourself. Beyond that, the tricky part is that there's some good cards, but they're only good against certain things. Bribery can grab Emrakul, but doesn't help if they have a way to get rid of it (Karn, Oblivion Stone) or if it's in their hand. There's of course the classic card of Sowing Salt, but ultimately its effect against Tron isn't that much more amazing than a permanent Blood Moon (though it does take out a land to delay the deck). I feel Sowing Salt is more impressive in decks that aren't running Blood Moon, though it still does do more to stop them than Blood Moon, albeit at the cost of an extra mana and the possibility of them just hitting their land with Ghost Quarter in response.
A very narrow card that nevertheless has considerable power against Tron is Essence Backlash. While most killer if used on an Emrakul (who cares if it doesn't counter it? You just hit them for 15 damage!), it will stop a Wurmcoil Engine and hit them for 6 damage in doing so. On the downside, it doesn't stop Karn, and is pretty irrelevant against other decks.
One card worth considering when you're in the Black splash is Slaughter Games. Tron generally has only a few win conditions (Karn Liberated, Wurmcoil Engine, Emrakul, and sometimes a Sundering Titan or Ulamog) so if you can get rid of enough of them you actually just win the game. With Thoughtseize and Vendilion Clique you can already know what's in their hand to take out with it (i.e. whether to name Wurmcoil Engine or Karn Liberated), and Snapcaster Mage gives you extra value by letting you cast it a second time. Slaughter Games also has game against combo decks dependent on resolving specific cards like Scapeshift or Living End, though admittedly you already have your ways to deal with them.
On the whole, though, it's just kind of an inherently bad matchup. You should probably either just hope to dodge it or pack some serious hate in the sideboard... or both.
Thanks for all of the insight. I don't know how I came to the conclusion that the matchup slightly favored the moon deck. I was very tired when I pieced that post together. On first glance, it seemed like the deck wouldn't be so bad vs Tron, but in practice it is quite difficult. I will have to seriously consider deck/card choice going forward in my preparation for Charlotte.
Thanks for all of the insight. I don't know how I came to the conclusion that the matchup slightly favored the moon deck. I was very tired when I pieced that post together. On first glance, it seemed like the deck wouldn't be so bad vs Tron, but in practice it is quite difficult. I will have to seriously consider deck/card choice going forward in my preparation for Charlotte.
Well, maybe the best way to think about it is this: Blue Moon is a control deck. The problem is that in the GR Tron vs. Blue Moon matchup, GR Tron is the control deck. Blue Moon won't win if it acts like a control deck any more than Zoo will win against you if it tries to act like a control deck. There are two main ways to try to beat it:
1) Try to force yourself back into the control deck.
2) Accept your role as the aggressive deck.
#1 is probably the harder one. To be the control deck, you have to somehow remove Emrakul, no ifs ands or buts. Emrakul is exactly why Tron is the control deck: It has the best endgame of anything in the format.
The best cards in your colors for this appear to be Bitter Ordeal, Slaughter Games, Thought Hemorrhage, and Bribery. Sadly, the best card for this, Hide//Seek, isn't in your colors. (note that Hide//Seek can remove lands, so taking out an Eye of Ugin can be useful).
Bitter Ordeal is the cheapest, but is basically only good at taking out Emrakul unless you can somehow get Gravestorm up, and only hits it when it's in a library. I've already discussed the potential issues with Bribery (one other being that it's rather unimpressive outside of being against GR Tron), but when things line up right it basically wins you the game on the spot. I do remember seeing a Blue Moon deck a while ago running three copies of this in the sideboard. I'll admit that I might be underestimating it, though, as I've never had anyone cast it against me. Still, in theory I have issues with it despite it, when things line up right, being an instant win.
This brings us to Slaughter Games and Thought Hemorrhage. The former is better in general (and is a particularly fun card against Scapeshift), the latter is better against GR Tron because the occasional extra damage is more relevant than being uncounterable. Slaughter Games takes out an Emrakul, no questions asked, and can be used afterwards to take out other win conditions. I have had a few games where people have actually managed to get rid of all win conditions in my deck (not solely through Slaughter Games, though). You don't have to SG all win conditions to win, incidentally, if you're able to stop the rest with counterspells and discard.
The obvious and unfortunate part about Slaughter Games, though, is that you have to tap out to cast it. Maybe you can discard/counter their cards before that point, but it leaves you open to possibly getting a Karn or something to deal with. Taking out Emrakul doesn't stop them from casting that Karn and taking control of the game with it, so it might be better to initially name something like Karn if you have another in hand or the ability to flash it back with Snapcaster Mage.
Basically, Slaughter Games/Thought Hemorrhage is your best friend if you want to take this route. Take out Emrakul and they don't have the inevitability anymore, so if you can handle their other threats (possibly with more castings of Slaughter Games), you can win as the control deck.
Another way to prevent Emrakul from being cast is Sowing Salt. While they theoretically can cast him without Tron (I actually once got very close to being able to hardcast Emrakul even after getting hit with Sowing Salt in a mirror match, but unfortunately we went to time so I'll never know if I would have done it), it's still going to take them a long time to do it. This also takes out a land, slowing them down from hardcasting threats. Sowing Salt does have the problem, though, of possibly being a bit slow, and being bad in basically every matchup other than sometimes Scapeshift (only works if they actually put a Valakut into play to be hit with it). Slaughter Games at least can help you against combo decks.
The other option, #2 is to simply try to go aggressive. Hit them with damage quickly while also disrupting them. One of the best cards I can think of for this is Molten Rain, a card I didn't mention before. You take out one of their lands, which slows them down from assembling Tron and slows them down from just hardcasting stuff. And, of course, you bring them closer to 0 by hitting them for 2 damage. I was thinking of suggesting Fulminator Mage, but you're not likely to get more than 2 damage against Tron with it anyway, so might as well go for the more guaranteed damage (Fulminator Mage is a little easier to cast, though). And Molten Rain helps you out in the corner cases where you actually want to take out their Forest so they don't have continual Green mana under a Blood Moon.
If you want the tl;dr version, I think the best cards for beating GR Tron for Grixis Moon would be:
Slaughter Games/Thought Hemorrhage (to remove threats, most noticeably Emrakul)
Sowing Salt (put down a Blood Moon they can't ever get rid and slow them down)
Molten Rain (slow them down and hit them for 2 damage, important when trying to get them down to 0 before they can take control)
Which one(s) you go with probably should depend on which you think would be most useful in matchups other than GR Tron (which you would probably know better than me--I'm mostly familiar with this because I play GR Tron, heh), particularly matchups that aren't covered by other cards in your sideboard.
The other possibility, of course, is to just say "I don't want to dedicate all this in my sideboard to handle this one bad matchup I could lose even with all this stuff, so I'll just hope to heck I don't encounter it." On the downside, I'm guessing that GP Charlotte will probably have a decent amount of GR Tron roaming around thanks to the presumed prevalence of Jund, Junk, and Collected Company.
I may end up just throwing a slaughter games in the board, because I don't feel as though I can just forfeit the Tron matchup at Charlotte. I have contemplated with playing a pyromancer list to help me close the game faster GR tron (and other control decks), but then pyroclasm would just be a blowout and my game 1 against the aggro decks would be more difficult. Hopefully, the odds will be in my favor and I'll only play against Tron once or twice.
I'm not set on my sideboard for tron yet. Ideally you're trying to end the game as quick as possible. Grixis wants an early tasigur and I'm trying to stick an early goyf. People are always siding out leaks and remands but I feel like those are useful enough at disrupting early game and countering spells with blood moon active.
I'm thinking of siding like this:
-2 spell snare
-2 electrolyze
-2 ????
+2 ancient grudge
+2 sower of temptation
+1 blood moon
+1 mystic snake
Note that it is important to mulligam the hand if you can't win with it. You need to actually win the game as they have inevitability
Hey guys. Since Grixis Moon plays lots of (1) instant-speed stuff, (2) relies on card quality to win, and also (3) plays some Delve stuff, have you guys considered running a couple of Mishra's Bauble?
Bauble cantrips for zero, obviously enabling faster Delving (3), virtually scries [combined with any fetchland effect] (2), and since it will often draw you instant speed stuff, you're not losing much tempo (1). Am I making sense?
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MODERN Blue Lantern, UBx Tezzerator. OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
I'm not set on my sideboard for tron yet. Ideally you're trying to end the game as quick as possible. Grixis wants an early tasigur and I'm trying to stick an early goyf. People are always siding out leaks and remands but I feel like those are useful enough at disrupting early game and countering spells with blood moon active.
I'm thinking of siding like this:
-2 spell snare
-2 electrolyze
-2 ????
+2 ancient grudge
+2 sower of temptation
+1 blood moon
+1 mystic snake
Note that it is important to mulligam the hand if you can't win with it. You need to actually win the game as they have inevitability
I would cut all shackles! They are just bad in this matchup and bring all dispells and Counterflux and Negate u got! My boarding was +1 Counterflux +2 Dispell +1 Sower +1 Ancient Grudge -2 Shackles -2 Electrolyze -1 Spell Snare ...
I was playing this Deck last weekend in Utrecht in the modern sideevents and my results are 10-0-1.
What are the dispels for against tron?
The real Questions for TFSS after a "Congratulations! great weekend!"
1. How was the mana? It looks a little sketchy with the moons!
2. How good were the shackles? Do they still deserve a spot main deck!
3. Where are you bringing in Olivia and Sword? Were they worth it?
Pack Rat seems like an excellent addition to the deck, and the adding of the 2nd swamp is probably a requirement as well. Nice to see such innovation! The only card slots I am not quite sold on are the 1 Thought Scour, 2 Serum visions, and the 3/1 Inq/Thoughtsieze. I will definitely be trying out the Pack Rat variant, and hope to be able to provide some feedback. Congrats on your great showing at GP Utrecht!
Ari Lax seemed pretty against Shackles as a card in modern atm.
I generally don't listen to Lax as I can't stand him, but what do you guys think.
In regards to grixis moon "Also, LOLOLOL Vedalken Shackles LOLOLOL. Kolaghan's Command, get two-for-one'd. Also nice control deck that can't play Creeping Tar Pit or any other manland because it is trying to brick Lightning Bolt."
I kind of agree that shackles are a weak card in the current meta (AD, Kohl Command, SB enchantment/art hate), but IMO they are quite necessary, and there isn't anything else that I could think of replacing them with.
In other news, I tried testing the pack rat version (without discard, and more counters/cantrips), and it felt wonderful. Always having something to do with your dead draws, and being able to present a more formidable clock is amazing. Pack Rat definitely steals games, even in modern.
@TFSS (and others) are you 100% sold on Olivia in the board? I feel skeptical of bringing it in against lightning bolt. However, I guess that Jund/Delver etc will be boarding out their bolts against us game 2, so I can see the reasoning for them. Also, are you confident boarding in sword into their abrubpt decays and Kohlagan's commands?
I have a question for the grixis moon players. Why isn't mainboard damnation included? Feels like the deck can use a sweeper, even if double black is not the easiest thing to do.
I have a question for the grixis moon players. Why isn't mainboard damnation included? Feels like the deck can use a sweeper, even if double black is not the easiest thing to do.
Double black is near impossible after blood moon comes down (you would also need a 2nd swamp to make this happen), and you want to try and get as many islands online for shackles/cryptic post blood moon. Also, if you have let their board get to a place where you need damnation, game is usually lost. Another important note is that you play your own threats (Tasiguar, Pack Rat, etc). In the midrange matchups you are more focused on answering single threats with removal and countermagic, getting your moon/threats online, and locking them out. In the aggro matchups, you just board into Anger of the God's. The only way I could see Damnation fitting into the deck is in the cryptic command slot.
Okay guys, I am back from Utrecht and after a fair amount of sleep, so lets begin:
First of all, I didn't get a chance to play much modern due to my pretty good performance in main event (I ended up 12-3 and 30th out of ca 3600 players, which feels pretty great), although I've been playing side events whole Thursday and Friday, and end up winning something like 75% of them, which is quite an amazing number. I also lend my deck to a friend of mine, and he managed to went 5-1 in the biggest modern side event, which is pretty nice result without a complete knowledge of matchups, sideboarding etc. I also mentioned I've been tesing particular 2-drop last week, and it really overperformed. So, without further ado, Ladies and Gentelmen, I am presenting to you...
A: Yes. It was actually quite viable like a year ago, when pack rat showed up in WB Deadguy Ale-esque deck designed by Craig Wescoe and in some Rock lists, Willy Edel's for example. After a whole lot of testing I came out with the conclusion that the best way to beat Jund/k is to pack a lot of haymakers in your deck, and Pack Rat beyond turn 5 is insane. With 3 Rats, 2 Jace, 2 Olivias and Sword (and also Tasigurs + Shackles) I'm pretty confident that my BG/x matchup is at least 50/50. Also, we can afford playing discard and a whoopin' amount of 24 lands.
Q: Why are you playing 2 Visions and 1 Thought Scour?
A: This seems odd at first, but with 24 lands we don't really need that much cantrips, and there are matchups like infect, burn, affinity or company, where cantripping is a waste of tempo, and you usually can't afford it. Splitting them seems reasonable to me, cause scour is better with snapcaster and tasigur, and serum visions is more powerful.
Q: Does discard really belong in control deck like this?
A: Although this list is more midrange oriented, I still perceive it as control deck. Discard tends to be bad in this type of decks, but we can utilize it via Pack Rat, which eliminates its greatest weakness.
Overall, this list looks really powerful to me, if you have any questions please don't hesitate, I'll definitely answer them all.
Best Regards & Much Love,
TFSS
Pack Rat seems like a great idea. Also, congrats on the finish!
Edit: If you ever went up to 3 Tasigurs I would switch to running 3 Thought Scours.
What do you guys think is better between shadow of doubt and spreading seas? Both have their own lists of pros and con's but I'd rather play a 2-0 split than a 1-1 split
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3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Keranos, God of Storms
6 Island
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Blood Crypt
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
2 Blood Moon
2 Cryptic Command
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
4 Thought Scour
4 Serum Visions
1 Sulfur Falls
3 Terminate
2 Remand
1 Electrolyze
1 Murderous Cut
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Blood Moon
2 Dispel
1 Rending Volley
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Dragon's Claw
1 Flashfreeze
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Vandalblast
By the way, did you guys see the Gerry Thompson articles where he discuss his deck choices for the upcoming Invitational? He considers Grixis Control, just cutting the Shackles. And his tech against the mirror and Grixis Delver (which he thinks will be extremely popular) is 3 copies of Leyline of the Void in the sideboard, which sounds good.
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
Skred is worse than Lightning Bolt until turn 4 even if you play a snow land every turn. It can't kill what Roast can kill until turn 5 at best. It is not a good card.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Blood Moon
2 Spreading Seas
1 Keranos, God of Storms
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Serum Visions
2 Spell Snare
3 Mana Leak
3 Remand
2 Shadow of Doubt
2 Electrolyze
3 Cryptic Command
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
1 Mountain
6 Island
1 Sulfur Falls
Sideboard would probably look like:
2 Dispel
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Rending Volley
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Roast
1 Mystic Snake
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Blood Moon
Round 1: UW Gifts Tron
Game 1 I never see bloodmoon, but his hand seems to be pretty bad. I try to race him with Tasigur and Snap bolts, as I never drew any counter magic, except for one spell snare, so this was my only option. I got him to 6, then he resolves a gifts flashes back unburial rites to get elesh norn, wipes my snapcaster, and after some running bricks off the top, I quickly die to Elesh+Colonnade.
Sideboard plan: *I did not have access to graveyard hate in my board due to last minuteness*
-manaleak x3
-roast x1
-remand x1
+Vclique x2
+Keranos x1
+Jace AoT x1
Game 2 I land turn 2 Tasigur, turn 3 blood moon, turn 4 Jace, turn 5 vclique and close the game out swiftly.
Game 3 Again, I never see blood moon. After grinding, he resolves a gifts into Aiona, naming black. I am unable to draw cryptic to remove it, and the terminate in my hand is dead. I die in 2 swings.
In hindsight, if I had spellbombs, or Leyline of the Void, this matchup probably would have been a lot easier.
Round 2: RG Tron
Game 1: He mulligans to 5, and I keep a hand (on the play) of double thought scour, sulfur falls, blood moon, serum visions, bolt x2. I did this because I knew he was on RG Tron, and if I hit land drops I could close the game with blood moon. Turn 1, tapped land pass, turn 2 visions, finding a 2nd land and scrying one on top. Turn 3 I slam moon with 1 island, 1 swamp, sulfur falls in play. After a few turns of pinging with snaps and bolts, I get him to 5. He has been hitting land drops this whole time, and hard casts wurmcoil. I have no way over it. He then resolves Karn and locks the game up.
Sideboard Plan:
-shackles x2
-Roast x1
-Remand x1
+Vclique x2
+Jace AoT x1
+ Kohlagan's command
Game 2: I play blood moon turn 3, he responds with assembling tron, popping a star into dig spell to find a Karn. I play Tasigur and pass turn turn 4 with 3 mana (UUR) up, and vclique in hand. At this point, I am feeling like the game is locked up. I cast vclique in his draw step, revealing a hand of double oblivion stone, karn, and 2 lands. I take the Karn. He casts O-stone. I fail to find Kohlagans command off the top, and he wipes the board, and follows up with Ugin. A series of useless draws later, and he wins.
Post game thoughts: I think this matchup is slightly in our favor (60-40), and is dependent upon being able to resolve blood moon, and then keeping them off of O-Stone, while simultaneously presenting a respectable clock. The issue that I have with the URb deck currently is its lack of consistency (I am used to playing Draw-Go Esper). Unlike the UR moon list, we don't get to play multiple remands, spreading seas, and 4 cryptics to buy time/ensure that we always see our cards early game. Which gives Tron a lot of time to just start hardcasting threats.
I would appreciate any feedback/advice concering the URb moon list and the Tron matchup.
As for how to beat Tron... well, you basically gave the explanation there yourself. Beyond that, the tricky part is that there's some good cards, but they're only good against certain things. Bribery can grab Emrakul, but doesn't help if they have a way to get rid of it (Karn, Oblivion Stone) or if it's in their hand. There's of course the classic card of Sowing Salt, but ultimately its effect against Tron isn't that much more amazing than a permanent Blood Moon (though it does take out a land to delay the deck). I feel Sowing Salt is more impressive in decks that aren't running Blood Moon, though it still does do more to stop them than Blood Moon, albeit at the cost of an extra mana and the possibility of them just hitting their land with Ghost Quarter in response.
A very narrow card that nevertheless has considerable power against Tron is Essence Backlash. While most killer if used on an Emrakul (who cares if it doesn't counter it? You just hit them for 15 damage!), it will stop a Wurmcoil Engine and hit them for 6 damage in doing so. On the downside, it doesn't stop Karn, and is pretty irrelevant against other decks.
One card worth considering when you're in the Black splash is Slaughter Games. Tron generally has only a few win conditions (Karn Liberated, Wurmcoil Engine, Emrakul, and sometimes a Sundering Titan or Ulamog) so if you can get rid of enough of them you actually just win the game. With Thoughtseize and Vendilion Clique you can already know what's in their hand to take out with it (i.e. whether to name Wurmcoil Engine or Karn Liberated), and Snapcaster Mage gives you extra value by letting you cast it a second time. Slaughter Games also has game against combo decks dependent on resolving specific cards like Scapeshift or Living End, though admittedly you already have your ways to deal with them.
On the whole, though, it's just kind of an inherently bad matchup. You should probably either just hope to dodge it or pack some serious hate in the sideboard... or both.
Thanks for all of the insight. I don't know how I came to the conclusion that the matchup slightly favored the moon deck. I was very tired when I pieced that post together. On first glance, it seemed like the deck wouldn't be so bad vs Tron, but in practice it is quite difficult. I will have to seriously consider deck/card choice going forward in my preparation for Charlotte.
1) Try to force yourself back into the control deck.
2) Accept your role as the aggressive deck.
#1 is probably the harder one. To be the control deck, you have to somehow remove Emrakul, no ifs ands or buts. Emrakul is exactly why Tron is the control deck: It has the best endgame of anything in the format.
The best cards in your colors for this appear to be Bitter Ordeal, Slaughter Games, Thought Hemorrhage, and Bribery. Sadly, the best card for this, Hide//Seek, isn't in your colors. (note that Hide//Seek can remove lands, so taking out an Eye of Ugin can be useful).
Bitter Ordeal is the cheapest, but is basically only good at taking out Emrakul unless you can somehow get Gravestorm up, and only hits it when it's in a library. I've already discussed the potential issues with Bribery (one other being that it's rather unimpressive outside of being against GR Tron), but when things line up right it basically wins you the game on the spot. I do remember seeing a Blue Moon deck a while ago running three copies of this in the sideboard. I'll admit that I might be underestimating it, though, as I've never had anyone cast it against me. Still, in theory I have issues with it despite it, when things line up right, being an instant win.
This brings us to Slaughter Games and Thought Hemorrhage. The former is better in general (and is a particularly fun card against Scapeshift), the latter is better against GR Tron because the occasional extra damage is more relevant than being uncounterable. Slaughter Games takes out an Emrakul, no questions asked, and can be used afterwards to take out other win conditions. I have had a few games where people have actually managed to get rid of all win conditions in my deck (not solely through Slaughter Games, though). You don't have to SG all win conditions to win, incidentally, if you're able to stop the rest with counterspells and discard.
The obvious and unfortunate part about Slaughter Games, though, is that you have to tap out to cast it. Maybe you can discard/counter their cards before that point, but it leaves you open to possibly getting a Karn or something to deal with. Taking out Emrakul doesn't stop them from casting that Karn and taking control of the game with it, so it might be better to initially name something like Karn if you have another in hand or the ability to flash it back with Snapcaster Mage.
Basically, Slaughter Games/Thought Hemorrhage is your best friend if you want to take this route. Take out Emrakul and they don't have the inevitability anymore, so if you can handle their other threats (possibly with more castings of Slaughter Games), you can win as the control deck.
Another way to prevent Emrakul from being cast is Sowing Salt. While they theoretically can cast him without Tron (I actually once got very close to being able to hardcast Emrakul even after getting hit with Sowing Salt in a mirror match, but unfortunately we went to time so I'll never know if I would have done it), it's still going to take them a long time to do it. This also takes out a land, slowing them down from hardcasting threats. Sowing Salt does have the problem, though, of possibly being a bit slow, and being bad in basically every matchup other than sometimes Scapeshift (only works if they actually put a Valakut into play to be hit with it). Slaughter Games at least can help you against combo decks.
The other option, #2 is to simply try to go aggressive. Hit them with damage quickly while also disrupting them. One of the best cards I can think of for this is Molten Rain, a card I didn't mention before. You take out one of their lands, which slows them down from assembling Tron and slows them down from just hardcasting stuff. And, of course, you bring them closer to 0 by hitting them for 2 damage. I was thinking of suggesting Fulminator Mage, but you're not likely to get more than 2 damage against Tron with it anyway, so might as well go for the more guaranteed damage (Fulminator Mage is a little easier to cast, though). And Molten Rain helps you out in the corner cases where you actually want to take out their Forest so they don't have continual Green mana under a Blood Moon.
If you want the tl;dr version, I think the best cards for beating GR Tron for Grixis Moon would be:
Slaughter Games/Thought Hemorrhage (to remove threats, most noticeably Emrakul)
Sowing Salt (put down a Blood Moon they can't ever get rid and slow them down)
Molten Rain (slow them down and hit them for 2 damage, important when trying to get them down to 0 before they can take control)
Which one(s) you go with probably should depend on which you think would be most useful in matchups other than GR Tron (which you would probably know better than me--I'm mostly familiar with this because I play GR Tron, heh), particularly matchups that aren't covered by other cards in your sideboard.
The other possibility, of course, is to just say "I don't want to dedicate all this in my sideboard to handle this one bad matchup I could lose even with all this stuff, so I'll just hope to heck I don't encounter it." On the downside, I'm guessing that GP Charlotte will probably have a decent amount of GR Tron roaming around thanks to the presumed prevalence of Jund, Junk, and Collected Company.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I'm thinking of siding like this:
-2 spell snare
-2 electrolyze
-2 ????
+2 ancient grudge
+2 sower of temptation
+1 blood moon
+1 mystic snake
Note that it is important to mulligam the hand if you can't win with it. You need to actually win the game as they have inevitability
Bauble cantrips for zero, obviously enabling faster Delving (3), virtually scries [combined with any fetchland effect] (2), and since it will often draw you instant speed stuff, you're not losing much tempo (1). Am I making sense?
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
What are the dispels for against tron?
The real Questions for TFSS after a "Congratulations! great weekend!"
1. How was the mana? It looks a little sketchy with the moons!
2. How good were the shackles? Do they still deserve a spot main deck!
3. Where are you bringing in Olivia and Sword? Were they worth it?
I generally don't listen to Lax as I can't stand him, but what do you guys think.
In regards to grixis moon "Also, LOLOLOL Vedalken Shackles LOLOLOL. Kolaghan's Command, get two-for-one'd. Also nice control deck that can't play Creeping Tar Pit or any other manland because it is trying to brick Lightning Bolt."
In other news, I tried testing the pack rat version (without discard, and more counters/cantrips), and it felt wonderful. Always having something to do with your dead draws, and being able to present a more formidable clock is amazing. Pack Rat definitely steals games, even in modern.
@TFSS (and others) are you 100% sold on Olivia in the board? I feel skeptical of bringing it in against lightning bolt. However, I guess that Jund/Delver etc will be boarding out their bolts against us game 2, so I can see the reasoning for them. Also, are you confident boarding in sword into their abrubpt decays and Kohlagan's commands?
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Double black is near impossible after blood moon comes down (you would also need a 2nd swamp to make this happen), and you want to try and get as many islands online for shackles/cryptic post blood moon. Also, if you have let their board get to a place where you need damnation, game is usually lost. Another important note is that you play your own threats (Tasiguar, Pack Rat, etc). In the midrange matchups you are more focused on answering single threats with removal and countermagic, getting your moon/threats online, and locking them out. In the aggro matchups, you just board into Anger of the God's. The only way I could see Damnation fitting into the deck is in the cryptic command slot.
Pack Rat seems like a great idea. Also, congrats on the finish!
Edit: If you ever went up to 3 Tasigurs I would switch to running 3 Thought Scours.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.