Thanks for all the responses and advice guys, seriously appreciated. I'm just finishing my deck on paper. I already own all the expensive stuff, but I just wanted to post a list
and see if I should do any last minute tweaks before I finish buying up all the last cards this week.
Lands are based off these two sources but added the hissing quagmire:
Dropping a hissing quagmire for a 9th fetch land or a twilight mire
Dropping a blooming marsh for a 9th fetch land or twilight mire
Dropping 2 blooming marshes to fit a fetch and mire
Dropping either Anafenza or Kalitas for a 4th Grim Flayer or to bring in a maelstrom pulse from the Sideboard
(Love Kalitas personally and been told quite good vs bant eldrazi, but if ppl think Anafenza is better, than I'll go with that!)
If I move the maelstrom pulse to the main deck, i'll add a zealous persecution to the SB.
Is Glissa, the traitor a card that might be good vs the eldrazi?
A big question I have is, are the Mishra's Bauble absolutely necessary when I have 3 Flayers? I understand it speeds up delerium, just wondering
if the 2 slots are worth it. I haven't seen any lists with the 2 Artifact slots when running this kind of flayer list, and I've seen 3-4 flayers
when they do run them. Or maybe cutting down to 1, not sure.
I've become recently a big fan of Nameless inversion for that "delirium-feed" spot. Bauble doesn't seem that great in general, for me it was not worth the spot. But having extra removal as well as feed for goyf and delirium is great. I often saw myself fetching turn 1 and play IOK or seize, then droping Flayer turn 2 and after that on turn 3 you could simply remove a creature with nameless inversion and attack for 4, or even attack for 7 by casting it on flayer itself. (it gets a +3/-3 from nameless inversion and as it resolves, GY provides delirium)
It also provides some extra stuff like for example it always kills whatever Merfolk is in play as long as it doesn't get countered. (doesn't matter if the merfolk is a 4/4 or bigger from other lords, as it looses all creature types and gets killed for sure then)
Concerning your manabase, I agree that you could drop Quagmire. I think 3 Manlands are enough. Its kinda devastating when you need your fourth land and happen to draw another manland which doesn't help there, by running only 3 this problem does also occur, but not that common as with running more.
I would keep Anafenza MB I think. Its just amazing and taking into acount how much dredge is goind around nowadays shes definetly worth playing MB.
I'd consider Tasigur, the Golden Fang over Kalitas actually. Since we don't run bobs it doesn't hurt that we play him and he is still amazing in grindy matchups. And getting to play an early 4/5 is also nice on its own actually.
@KeMT I like Golgari Charm for the reasons you stated, its a pet card of mine which pretty much always has a place in my sideboard. I think in this wide range meta it makes sense to play such cards, but I don't know if it is correct to play it nowadays.
@Pe7er89 I think you made a good point here about the Abzan Charm. If you face Eldrazi and have Painful Truths in the SB, you might as well exchange it with Abzan Charm. But I am not quite sure if I would play without Pulse entirely then (assuming you only play one Pulse in the side, since you said you want to exchange pulse and truths with abzan charms). Its still very versatile card, but jamming at least one Abzan Charm in the board seems reasonable.
Sweet thanks again everyone. I must say I've been in several other threads for other decks, and this one is by far been the most helpful in terms of responses!
From the sound of things what I'm going to do is start off with the 2 baubles, and see how it is and how often it ends up being a factor. From there i'll cut one then 2, and see how nameless inversion is. I play quite a bit on MTGO and pretty much have all the cards there, and I record and make notes on all my games so I think this is the best route to go for me, especially as I am new to the deck in general.
Updated the first list I'll be using. Cut the hissing quagmire, added twilight mire, and cut kalitas to bring in the maelstrom pulse from the Sideboard.
On a side note, anyone consider Ghostly Prison in the SB for Eldrazi? It is what I used for GW Tron during the Eldrazi winter and it was quite useful I found, might have some overlap for slowing Dredge as well. Also when i played Mardu for that short period, I used Runed Halo for Valakut, Infect, Combo decks in general and Eldrazi (naming TKS or Reality Smasher).
On a side note, anyone consider Ghostly Prison in the SB for Eldrazi? It is what I used for GW Tron during the Eldrazi winter and it was quite useful I found, might have some overlap for slowing Dredge as well. Also when i played Mardu for that short period, I used Runed Halo for Valakut, Infect, Combo decks in general and Eldrazi (naming TKS or Reality Smasher).
Ghostly Prison won't do much vs Eldrazi, they're not a swarm deck like BW tokens or Elves, nor need mana like infect, attacking with an exalted Smasher is often enough and they can afford to pay with the mana dorks, it might be ok vs dredge but they side in their flashback disenchant (forgot the name) to remove Rest in peace anyway, so Prison won't bother them that much.
Runed Halo for valakut seems pretty good to me, I can see valakut scoop to turn 2 runed halo, they can hope to kill with titan but we have 4 path to deal with their 4 titans we can block it easily with goyfs thanks to baubles and lili, Halo naming lightning storm vs ad nauseam or grapeshot vs storm can be a good sideboard tool.
I don't see Halo being very strong vs Eldrazi or infect, naming a creature and we'll still die to the others, infect is weak to discard and removal, we just need to have the right answers at the right moment, last resort in a meta heavy I'll put Curse of Death's Hold in my sideboard to close the game and play Zealous persecution main deck, there are no matchups where pumping our team is useless so it would (almost) never be a dead card, but overall it is not a matchup we should dedicate specific sideboard slots for.
Blessed alliance seems to be a decent spell for eldrazi, infect, burn, boggles (game 1) and even the mirror, untaping a creature might be useful, I still need to test the card tho
Fair enough! I was looking into Blessed Alliance for Mardu just before i switched to Abzan didn't get a chance to test it either. I've seen two recent decks on mtgotop8 running a single copy of worship. Seems like it would be good vs eldrazi, but not sure if it crosses over into any other matchups.
@Pe7er89 I think you made a good point here about the Abzan Charm. If you face Eldrazi and have Painful Truths in the SB, you might as well exchange it with Abzan Charm. But I am not quite sure if I would play without Pulse entirely then (assuming you only play one Pulse in the side, since you said you want to exchange pulse and truths with abzan charms). Its still very versatile card, but jamming at least one Abzan Charm in the board seems reasonable.
I actually meant that pulse and Thruths were cut out of my sideboard. There is still a pulse in my main. The pulse in the side used to be for Nahiri or Eldrazi, since there aren't much strategies that have multiple targets with the same name nowadays. Painful truths was actually meant for the same kind of decks. So with the versatility of Abzan Charm you can actually have two of these in both matchups.
But honestly i'm still not sure if i want to cut Pulse for it, i might cut EE instead since it's been meh lately.
The thing i am trying to say is, i think that versatile cards are quite important nowadays, since the meta is quite broad. With any charm being the most versatile cards we can get, i think playing some of them is necessary. They also let you have certain plays that are unexpected and outside of the box, which i personally like (like Nameless Inversion!!). Escalate cards are close to charms as well and we've seen the success of Collective Brutality. Maybe we should try Blessed Alliance too.
I'm not sure if i should play 2 Abzan Charms, and maybe one stance instead is good too. But they make sense to me since i've dedicated these slots to these kind of decks.
For reference here's my SB now.
Yeah I knew that Pulse and Truths were in your sideboard, but I didn't know you play one extra Pulse MB, assumed you only play 1 SB actually. By looking at your SB, I am thinking to myself: WHy don't you play a second Damnation over Flaying Tendrils? Damnation also hits Etched Champion, and deals much better with one of the biggest problems: Eldrazi. I know it comes down one turn earlier and exiles, but I am not sure you need that, its just a thought of mine, so, any perticular reason for no second Damnation over Tendrils?
What I also like to do is play some combination of Gideon and/or Elspeth, Suns Champion. Shes also good against Eldrazi, and amazing in grindy Matchups. But I don't know your meta, maybe you don't need it.
Runed Halo is good against Eldrazi because they run a ton of redundant creatures. They also run 1-2 spellskites typically, which means your removals are worse games 2 and 3. Also, one halo handles multiple of the same threats as well as prevent Thought Knot Seer from targeting you. Halo basically bypass these problems and you should be able to handle the other threats.
Worship is effective against Eldrazi but note that Eldrazi themselves also run 1-2 Worship in the side. So yeah...
While Eldrazi is not as broken as before (especially with Ugin + Mimic sheenanigans) it still has a lot of the broken elements (eldrazi temple, ancient stirrings, 2-for-1 creatures, cavern of souls, etc.). The fact that it's difficult to side against puts it over the top. I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes more oppressive than Splinter Twin (if it was ever).
Siege rhino and Vault of the Archangel are my pet cards on this list. They won me so many games that's why I am having a hard time removing them on my list.
BTW, any advise about our SB against:
1. Merfolk
2. Bant Eldrazi
3. Suicide Zoo
I agree with all points KeMT made there. Not less than 4 Lingering souls, especially if you run Sorin! I think 4 Rhinos is to many currently, I'd cut one for Lingering SOuls #4.
The rest is ok, but you could have issues with flayer, like KeMT said, it could happen that those will underperform.
If you expect ELdrazi, I'd consider Elspeth, Suns Champion. She is amazing, also pushes everything over the top in long grindy games. But since there is also merfolk and zoo (so a lot of aggro) she might not deserve a spot in the SB. But I just want to mention her nevertheless.
I agree with all points KeMT made there. Not less than 4 Lingering souls, especially if you run Sorin! I think 4 Rhinos is to many currently, I'd cut one for Lingering SOuls #4.
The rest is ok, but you could have issues with flayer, like KeMT said, it could happen that those will underperform.
If you expect ELdrazi, I'd consider Elspeth, Suns Champion. She is amazing, also pushes everything over the top in long grindy games. But since there is also merfolk and zoo (so a lot of aggro) she might not deserve a spot in the SB. But I just want to mention her nevertheless.
FWIW I ran 3 Souls yesterday, running Sorin, and top 8 a 60 person event. You don't need to have 4. But that many rhinos on 23 lands is probably not correct
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I agree with all points KeMT made there. Not less than 4 Lingering souls, especially if you run Sorin! I think 4 Rhinos is to many currently, I'd cut one for Lingering SOuls #4.
The rest is ok, but you could have issues with flayer, like KeMT said, it could happen that those will underperform.
If you expect ELdrazi, I'd consider Elspeth, Suns Champion. She is amazing, also pushes everything over the top in long grindy games. But since there is also merfolk and zoo (so a lot of aggro) she might not deserve a spot in the SB. But I just want to mention her nevertheless.
FWIW I ran 3 Souls yesterday, running Sorin, and top 8 a 60 person event. You don't need to have 4. But that many rhinos on 23 lands is probably not correct
What does this have to do with the fact that Soring has best synergy with Lingering Tokens (multiple and efficient/cheap creatures)? Merfolk, Suicide Zoo and Eldrazi was mentioned, for which it is assumed the meta to face is aggro heavy. Therefore 4 Lingering Souls is needed in my oppinion. Yeah you can surely run sorin with 3 copies of Lingering souls, but the meta has to be right for that. Different metas require different card selection, I count towards the people who cant stress this issue often enough.
I agree with all points KeMT made there. Not less than 4 Lingering souls, especially if you run Sorin! I think 4 Rhinos is to many currently, I'd cut one for Lingering SOuls #4.
The rest is ok, but you could have issues with flayer, like KeMT said, it could happen that those will underperform.
If you expect ELdrazi, I'd consider Elspeth, Suns Champion. She is amazing, also pushes everything over the top in long grindy games. But since there is also merfolk and zoo (so a lot of aggro) she might not deserve a spot in the SB. But I just want to mention her nevertheless.
FWIW I ran 3 Souls yesterday, running Sorin, and top 8 a 60 person event. You don't need to have 4. But that many rhinos on 23 lands is probably not correct
What does this have to do with the fact that Soring has best synergy with Lingering Tokens (multiple and efficient/cheap creatures)? Merfolk, Suicide Zoo and Eldrazi was mentioned, for which it is assumed the meta to face is aggro heavy. Therefore 4 Lingering Souls is needed in my oppinion. Yeah you can surely run sorin with 3 copies of Lingering souls, but the meta has to be right for that. Different metas require different card selection, I count towards the people who cant stress this issue often enough.
You're blocking islandwalk creatures with souls? or Temur-Battlerage-ed Death's shadow? I've never run 4x of that card (or Lili for that matter in any BGx I've played) and haven't felt like I missed the 4th copy. Yesterday I had one in hand against burn and got wrecked. I much rather have had anything that gains life.
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Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
I agree with all points KeMT made there. Not less than 4 Lingering souls, especially if you run Sorin! I think 4 Rhinos is to many currently, I'd cut one for Lingering SOuls #4.
The rest is ok, but you could have issues with flayer, like KeMT said, it could happen that those will underperform.
If you expect ELdrazi, I'd consider Elspeth, Suns Champion. She is amazing, also pushes everything over the top in long grindy games. But since there is also merfolk and zoo (so a lot of aggro) she might not deserve a spot in the SB. But I just want to mention her nevertheless.
FWIW I ran 3 Souls yesterday, running Sorin, and top 8 a 60 person event. You don't need to have 4. But that many rhinos on 23 lands is probably not correct
What does this have to do with the fact that Soring has best synergy with Lingering Tokens (multiple and efficient/cheap creatures)? Merfolk, Suicide Zoo and Eldrazi was mentioned, for which it is assumed the meta to face is aggro heavy. Therefore 4 Lingering Souls is needed in my oppinion. Yeah you can surely run sorin with 3 copies of Lingering souls, but the meta has to be right for that. Different metas require different card selection, I count towards the people who cant stress this issue often enough.
You're blocking islandwalk creatures with souls? or Temur-Battlerage-ed Death's shadow? I've never run 4x of that card (or Lili for that matter in any BGx I've played) and haven't felt like I missed the 4th copy. Yesterday I had one in hand against burn and got wrecked. I much rather have had anything that gains life.
And Ben Rubin made it to a GP Finals with a 64 cards deck once ...
You're blocking more creatures if islandwalk or temur battle rage are not in the equation, you're gaining time to draw your other answers and to reach your 4th-5th land drops, I drew Tarmogoyf instead of my lifegain vs burn and lost yet I won't state that I'd cut goyfs down to three.
Anyway consensus is that 4 Souls is the right number in this deck for aggro matchups, control and the mirror, the card has proven it strength already and there's no debate around it, as far I as read it still has the best synergy with Sorin/Vault of the Archangel, IMO only Bitterblossom is more synergistic with sorin.
I completely agree. Can't say more really, Sorin is best when run along 4 Souls in Abzan, and we don't have to argue that Souls is our best card against aggro and probably the best card in Abzan as well. It has often been stated that Lingering Souls is actually the reason to run Abzan in the first place.
@Draken: If running 3 Souls work for you its completely fine, like I said, certain metas require certain tweaks to the decks. But by saying that you lost to burn because you had lingering souls in hand is like saying I lost to burn because I kept drawing lands and eventually died through that. So according to your argumentation I shouldn't play lands then? This is not an argument against Lingering Souls to be honest.
And for the merfolk/suicide zoo case, what would have helped Siege Rhino #4 in that situation? (Note that I suggested to swap the fourth Siege Rhino for Souls for example) I bet overall, over time and over many games Souls would perform better against these decks than Siege Rhino. I clearly don't know what you are you trying to tell through all this, if you simply don't like Souls its ok, everyone has one's own playstyle.
Thanks for the input guys! Really appreciate it. Though sometimes I share the same sentiments as Draken does regarding lingering souls.
About siege rhino, I guess this is the time to really let it go even though I love using them since I want to go the Flayer path with my build.
BTW, I also run value jund so I was wondering if it would also work with junk? I tried using it once with only 22 lands and what I noticed is the lack of delirium enablers. I also don't like Kalitas on my list so I am planning to change it to anafenza the foremost.
Possible changes I am thinking based on inputs above:
> -1 Anafenza, +1 Lingering souls
> -1 Blooming Marsh, +1 Vault of the Archangel/+1 Gavony Township
> -1 Sorin, +1 Liliana the last hope
Inputs?
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Man you people seem to really hate Lingering Souls^^ Its just such an amazing card, can't get why you would run only a few copies of them. But nevertheless, yeah you are right about Kalitas, he is not great since we run Path to exile, so people don't play him in Abzan.
I really would cut Sorin in that low land list. I don't think this 4 drop is that great at all, its generally not really played in Abzan actually. I don't see the benefit of running him. I would also cut one Anafenza for Lingering Souls, which you suggested.
I don't know if this list would be viable or not, running Bobs is something Abzan players have tried in the past, but it never made it into the standard list really. And also simply because of Lingering Souls. People play Abzan mainly because of this card. If you wouldn't run it and want to run a value list with Bobs, why don't you just play Jund instead? Alone because of the fact, that it can support Bob better, for example.
I mean you could try it, it would be interesting if it performs well, but I actually doubt it. You basically cut the best cards in Abzan, Souls, to get into the same kind of mana curve distribution range like Jund, to support Bob basically. For me this means loss of consistancy. Also, the manabase seems kind of dangerous, you play potentially 8 taplands in only 22 lands total, I think that will cause problems. (For comparison: I worried about cutting the 24.land in jund for value jund as well and in jund you only run 7 potential taplands. The only real version which popped up was to cut a manland, going down to 6 potential taplands in 23 lands)
Overall though, I don't see the benefit in running Path/2 copies of Lingering Souls instead of Bolt plus terminate here. The rest is pretty much similar to Jund lists.
FWIW I ran 3 Souls yesterday, running Sorin, and top 8 a 60 person event. You don't need to have 4. But that many rhinos on 23 lands is probably not correct
What does this have to do with the fact that Soring has best synergy with Lingering Tokens (multiple and efficient/cheap creatures)? Merfolk, Suicide Zoo and Eldrazi was mentioned, for which it is assumed the meta to face is aggro heavy. Therefore 4 Lingering Souls is needed in my oppinion. Yeah you can surely run sorin with 3 copies of Lingering souls, but the meta has to be right for that. Different metas require different card selection, I count towards the people who cant stress this issue often enough.
You're blocking islandwalk creatures with souls? or Temur-Battlerage-ed Death's shadow? I've never run 4x of that card (or Lili for that matter in any BGx I've played) and haven't felt like I missed the 4th copy. Yesterday I had one in hand against burn and got wrecked. I much rather have had anything that gains life.
And Ben Rubin made it to a GP Finals with a 64 cards deck once ...
You're blocking more creatures if islandwalk or temur battle rage are not in the equation, you're gaining time to draw your other answers and to reach your 4th-5th land drops, I drew Tarmogoyf instead of my lifegain vs burn and lost yet I won't state that I'd cut goyfs down to three.
Anyway consensus is that 4 Souls is the right number in this deck for aggro matchups, control and the mirror, the card has proven it strength already and there's no debate around it, as far I as read it still has the best synergy with Sorin/Vault of the Archangel, IMO only Bitterblossom is more synergistic with sorin.
I completely agree. Can't say more really, Sorin is best when run along 4 Souls in Abzan, and we don't have to argue that Souls is our best card against aggro and probably the best card in Abzan as well. It has often been stated that Lingering Souls is actually the reason to run Abzan in the first place.
@Draken: If running 3 Souls work for you its completely fine, like I said, certain metas require certain tweaks to the decks. But by saying that you lost to burn because you had lingering souls in hand is like saying I lost to burn because I kept drawing lands and eventually died through that. So according to your argumentation I shouldn't play lands then? This is not an argument against Lingering Souls to be honest.
And for the merfolk/suicide zoo case, what would have helped Siege Rhino #4 in that situation? (Note that I suggested to swap the fourth Siege Rhino for Souls for example) I bet overall, over time and over many games Souls would perform better against these decks than Siege Rhino. I clearly don't know what you are you trying to tell through all this, if you simply don't like Souls its ok, everyone has one's own playstyle.
I don't hate the card. I like it quite a bit. I just don't see the need to blindly play 4x all the time just "because it is the consensus." 3 has always felt right and the above poster shouldn't be told "anything less than 4 is incorrect" becuause, for some people, it is. 4 copies may be more popular but people do have success with 3x
And @Aliyuss
Certainly you can't say Souls is the only reason to play Junk>Jund. Yes it is a fantastic card, but path gives Junk a better way to deal with things like Wurmcoil, for example. The addition of white SB is also a reason to play this style deck.
EDH:ShatterStax, Only The Strong Survive
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
What does this have to do with the fact that Soring has best synergy with Lingering Tokens (multiple and efficient/cheap creatures)? Merfolk, Suicide Zoo and Eldrazi was mentioned, for which it is assumed the meta to face is aggro heavy. Therefore 4 Lingering Souls is needed in my oppinion. Yeah you can surely run sorin with 3 copies of Lingering souls, but the meta has to be right for that. Different metas require different card selection, I count towards the people who cant stress this issue often enough.
You're blocking islandwalk creatures with souls? or Temur-Battlerage-ed Death's shadow? I've never run 4x of that card (or Lili for that matter in any BGx I've played) and haven't felt like I missed the 4th copy. Yesterday I had one in hand against burn and got wrecked. I much rather have had anything that gains life.
And Ben Rubin made it to a GP Finals with a 64 cards deck once ...
You're blocking more creatures if islandwalk or temur battle rage are not in the equation, you're gaining time to draw your other answers and to reach your 4th-5th land drops, I drew Tarmogoyf instead of my lifegain vs burn and lost yet I won't state that I'd cut goyfs down to three.
Anyway consensus is that 4 Souls is the right number in this deck for aggro matchups, control and the mirror, the card has proven it strength already and there's no debate around it, as far I as read it still has the best synergy with Sorin/Vault of the Archangel, IMO only Bitterblossom is more synergistic with sorin.
I completely agree. Can't say more really, Sorin is best when run along 4 Souls in Abzan, and we don't have to argue that Souls is our best card against aggro and probably the best card in Abzan as well. It has often been stated that Lingering Souls is actually the reason to run Abzan in the first place.
@Draken: If running 3 Souls work for you its completely fine, like I said, certain metas require certain tweaks to the decks. But by saying that you lost to burn because you had lingering souls in hand is like saying I lost to burn because I kept drawing lands and eventually died through that. So according to your argumentation I shouldn't play lands then? This is not an argument against Lingering Souls to be honest.
And for the merfolk/suicide zoo case, what would have helped Siege Rhino #4 in that situation? (Note that I suggested to swap the fourth Siege Rhino for Souls for example) I bet overall, over time and over many games Souls would perform better against these decks than Siege Rhino. I clearly don't know what you are you trying to tell through all this, if you simply don't like Souls its ok, everyone has one's own playstyle.
I don't hate the card. I like it quite a bit. I just don't see the need to blindly play 4x all the time just "because it is the consensus." 3 has always felt right and the above poster shouldn't be told "anything less than 4 is incorrect" becuause, for some people, it is. 4 copies may be more popular but people do have success with 3x
And @Aliyuss
Certainly you can't say Souls is the only reason to play Junk>Jund. Yes it is a fantastic card, but path gives Junk a better way to deal with things like Wurmcoil, for example. The addition of white SB is also a reason to play this style deck.
If you play Junk to have Path against threat like Wurmcoil, imo, you are on the wrong path (lul). Junk is still very very bad against Tron.
Well, you're right that Lingering Souls isn't the only reason to play Junk over Jund but cards like Stony Silence and some other also are but imo it is the biggest one and if there were no Lingering Souls I don't think there would be much reasons to play Junk but then again I prefer Jund so I'm probably a little biased here.
I actually disagree with any of the statements claimed by anyone so far as for why we choose Junk over Jund. Yes it is true that path and souls are the main things White has to offer over Red. Then there are indeed the sideboard cards that White has to offer. Honestly i think white has some of the best sideboard cards out of all colors. But that aside, i don't think specific cards are the reason.
Pointing out the the best cards from White over Red means you assume the decks are similar. However, because of the color change and switch in different cards, Junk becomes a completely different strategy from Jund. I started with Junk and after a while i tried Jund, and i figured that the deck plays completely different and i was actually quite bad at piloting at the beginning.
So what i'm saying is, we chose Junk over Jund because its strategy either worked better for us or for the current meta. The decks are not comparable to me except for a bunch of cards being the same. Hence the fact that Grim Flayer actually fits the deck, while not in Jund. The main difference in strategy is that Jund tries to clear the boardstate and look for answers to do so, then counter attack with (mostly) a single creature. Junk tries to outnumber the boardstate by clearing it partly and applying more pressure simultaneously. This seems a minor difference, but when you play a game with Jund and then the next with Junk, you can feel it is very different.
Aaaaanyway, the discussion was whether the deck can be played with less than 4 Souls. Personally, i don't think so, because souls plays a huge part in the strategy of Junk, which is outnumbering boardstate.
I agree with you. For me, that was the long answer for the question: "Whats the reason to play Abzan?". And by saying: "Lingering Souls is the reason to play Abzan" it actually meant to be the short answer here (at least when I said it), because Lingering Souls exactly stands for the kind of strategy you explained Junk tries to do, for which I exactly meant your long reason. Plus I think 4 is the best way to get maximum consistancy in that strategy.
And this is also the reason I think value Junk will not be viable here. Red provides better tools to go for that route, which white doesn't in my oppinion. Overall I think "Lingering Souls is the reason to play Junk" is still valid, if it was meant right.
Thanks for the constructive criticisms guys. About lingering souls, I made several top 8 in our local area running 3x lingering souls but that's just me. The problem I do get from running 4 of it is I sometimes find it a bit luck luster especially against merfolk, sui zoo and abzan coco which is huge in our meta. Like what darken has said, It is a bit useless when merfolk has islandwalk and death shadow's trample. But I do get your point of maximizing the card by running 4 because coz I also want drawing lingering souls against jeskai, naya zoo and bgx decks.
For the reason why I play junk, it is not just because of lingering souls, but also the sideboard that white has to offer just like what the others have said. Regarding our matchup against tron, it might just be me but I find that I play much comfortably using junk vs jund because of path to exile, stony silence and fulminator mage
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Modern WBG Abzan's Junk WBG BRG Jund BRG BRG Living End BRG BGU Sultai BGU
@naclmolecule I'm testing a list that's very very similar to yours. I'm playing 3 flayer and 3 copters but I'm not sure it's right (I also don't own 4). Also 1 Liliana the last Hope main. Card is super good in this kind of shell. With 3 copters I also run 2 timely reinforcements in SB over couple finks.
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Current Decks:
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange BWG Abzan value evolution BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
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and see if I should do any last minute tweaks before I finish buying up all the last cards this week.
Lands are based off these two sources but added the hissing quagmire:
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/kaladesh-in-modern/
https://twitter.com/bazardebagda/status/782290687870066689
4x Blooming Marsh
1x Forest
1x Godless Shrine
1x Hissing Quagmire
2x Marsh Flats
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
2x Shambling Vent
1x Stirring Wildwood
1x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
Creature (14)
1x Anafenza, the Foremost
3x Grim Flayer
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3x Noble Hierarch
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Collective Brutality
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
3x Thoughtseize
Planeswalker (4)
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
Artifact (2)
2x Mishra's Bauble
Instant (7)
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Murderous Cut
4x Path to Exile
1x Collective Brutality
1x Damnation
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Fulminator Mage
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Stony Silence
2x Surgical Extraction
Some changes I'm personally thinking about:
Dropping a hissing quagmire for a 9th fetch land or a twilight mire
Dropping a blooming marsh for a 9th fetch land or twilight mire
Dropping 2 blooming marshes to fit a fetch and mire
Dropping either Anafenza or Kalitas for a 4th Grim Flayer or to bring in a maelstrom pulse from the Sideboard
(Love Kalitas personally and been told quite good vs bant eldrazi, but if ppl think Anafenza is better, than I'll go with that!)
If I move the maelstrom pulse to the main deck, i'll add a zealous persecution to the SB.
Is Glissa, the traitor a card that might be good vs the eldrazi?
A big question I have is, are the Mishra's Bauble absolutely necessary when I have 3 Flayers? I understand it speeds up delerium, just wondering
if the 2 slots are worth it. I haven't seen any lists with the 2 Artifact slots when running this kind of flayer list, and I've seen 3-4 flayers
when they do run them. Or maybe cutting down to 1, not sure.
Thanks again!
It also provides some extra stuff like for example it always kills whatever Merfolk is in play as long as it doesn't get countered. (doesn't matter if the merfolk is a 4/4 or bigger from other lords, as it looses all creature types and gets killed for sure then)
Concerning your manabase, I agree that you could drop Quagmire. I think 3 Manlands are enough. Its kinda devastating when you need your fourth land and happen to draw another manland which doesn't help there, by running only 3 this problem does also occur, but not that common as with running more.
I would keep Anafenza MB I think. Its just amazing and taking into acount how much dredge is goind around nowadays shes definetly worth playing MB.
I'd consider Tasigur, the Golden Fang over Kalitas actually. Since we don't run bobs it doesn't hurt that we play him and he is still amazing in grindy matchups. And getting to play an early 4/5 is also nice on its own actually.
@Pe7er89 I think you made a good point here about the Abzan Charm. If you face Eldrazi and have Painful Truths in the SB, you might as well exchange it with Abzan Charm. But I am not quite sure if I would play without Pulse entirely then (assuming you only play one Pulse in the side, since you said you want to exchange pulse and truths with abzan charms). Its still very versatile card, but jamming at least one Abzan Charm in the board seems reasonable.
From the sound of things what I'm going to do is start off with the 2 baubles, and see how it is and how often it ends up being a factor. From there i'll cut one then 2, and see how nameless inversion is. I play quite a bit on MTGO and pretty much have all the cards there, and I record and make notes on all my games so I think this is the best route to go for me, especially as I am new to the deck in general.
Updated the first list I'll be using. Cut the hissing quagmire, added twilight mire, and cut kalitas to bring in the maelstrom pulse from the Sideboard.
4x Blooming Marsh
1x Forest
1x Godless Shrine
2x Marsh Flats
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
2x Shambling Vent
1x Stirring Wildwood
1x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
1x Twilight Mire
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
Creature (13)
1x Anafenza, the Foremost
3x Grim Flayer
3x Noble Hierarch
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Collective Brutality
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
3x Thoughtseize
1x maelstrom pulse
Planeswalker (4)
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
Artifact (2)
2x Mishra's Bauble
Instant (7)
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Murderous Cut
4x Path to Exile
1x Collective Brutality
1x Damnation
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Fulminator Mage
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Zealous Persecution
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Stony Silence
2x Surgical Extraction
On a side note, anyone consider Ghostly Prison in the SB for Eldrazi? It is what I used for GW Tron during the Eldrazi winter and it was quite useful I found, might have some overlap for slowing Dredge as well. Also when i played Mardu for that short period, I used Runed Halo for Valakut, Infect, Combo decks in general and Eldrazi (naming TKS or Reality Smasher).
Fair enough! I was looking into Blessed Alliance for Mardu just before i switched to Abzan didn't get a chance to test it either. I've seen two recent decks on mtgotop8 running a single copy of worship. Seems like it would be good vs eldrazi, but not sure if it crosses over into any other matchups.
EDIT:
Just saw this after I already posted, definitely thinking about trying it out though!
Yeah I knew that Pulse and Truths were in your sideboard, but I didn't know you play one extra Pulse MB, assumed you only play 1 SB actually. By looking at your SB, I am thinking to myself: WHy don't you play a second Damnation over Flaying Tendrils? Damnation also hits Etched Champion, and deals much better with one of the biggest problems: Eldrazi. I know it comes down one turn earlier and exiles, but I am not sure you need that, its just a thought of mine, so, any perticular reason for no second Damnation over Tendrils?
What I also like to do is play some combination of Gideon and/or Elspeth, Suns Champion. Shes also good against Eldrazi, and amazing in grindy Matchups. But I don't know your meta, maybe you don't need it.
Worship is effective against Eldrazi but note that Eldrazi themselves also run 1-2 Worship in the side. So yeah...
While Eldrazi is not as broken as before (especially with Ugin + Mimic sheenanigans) it still has a lot of the broken elements (eldrazi temple, ancient stirrings, 2-for-1 creatures, cavern of souls, etc.). The fact that it's difficult to side against puts it over the top. I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes more oppressive than Splinter Twin (if it was ever).
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Grim Flayer
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Anafenza, the Foremost
4x Siege Rhino
Spells: 22
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
4x Path to Exile
1x Collective Brutality
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Lingering Souls
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Marsh Flats
2x Windswept Heath
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Temple Garden
1x Godless Shrine
4x Blooming Marsh
2x Shambling Vent
2x Stirring Wildwood
1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Vault of the Archangel
1x Pithing Needle
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Batterskull
2x Stony Silence
2x Blessed Alliance
1x Wrath of God
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Collective Brutality
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Golgari Charm
3x Fulminator Mage
Siege rhino and Vault of the Archangel are my pet cards on this list. They won me so many games that's why I am having a hard time removing them on my list.
BTW, any advise about our SB against:
1. Merfolk
2. Bant Eldrazi
3. Suicide Zoo
WBG Abzan's Junk WBG
BRG Jund BRG
BRG Living End BRG
BGU Sultai BGU
EDH
R Purphoros, God of the Forge R
Pauper
RBGU Affinity RBGU
The rest is ok, but you could have issues with flayer, like KeMT said, it could happen that those will underperform.
If you expect ELdrazi, I'd consider Elspeth, Suns Champion. She is amazing, also pushes everything over the top in long grindy games. But since there is also merfolk and zoo (so a lot of aggro) she might not deserve a spot in the SB. But I just want to mention her nevertheless.
FWIW I ran 3 Souls yesterday, running Sorin, and top 8 a 60 person event. You don't need to have 4. But that many rhinos on 23 lands is probably not correct
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
Modern: Fish, JUND/Junk
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RIP Twin
What does this have to do with the fact that Soring has best synergy with Lingering Tokens (multiple and efficient/cheap creatures)? Merfolk, Suicide Zoo and Eldrazi was mentioned, for which it is assumed the meta to face is aggro heavy. Therefore 4 Lingering Souls is needed in my oppinion. Yeah you can surely run sorin with 3 copies of Lingering souls, but the meta has to be right for that. Different metas require different card selection, I count towards the people who cant stress this issue often enough.
You're blocking islandwalk creatures with souls? or Temur-Battlerage-ed Death's shadow? I've never run 4x of that card (or Lili for that matter in any BGx I've played) and haven't felt like I missed the 4th copy. Yesterday I had one in hand against burn and got wrecked. I much rather have had anything that gains life.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
Modern: Fish, JUND/Junk
--------
RIP Twin
I completely agree. Can't say more really, Sorin is best when run along 4 Souls in Abzan, and we don't have to argue that Souls is our best card against aggro and probably the best card in Abzan as well. It has often been stated that Lingering Souls is actually the reason to run Abzan in the first place.
@Draken: If running 3 Souls work for you its completely fine, like I said, certain metas require certain tweaks to the decks. But by saying that you lost to burn because you had lingering souls in hand is like saying I lost to burn because I kept drawing lands and eventually died through that. So according to your argumentation I shouldn't play lands then? This is not an argument against Lingering Souls to be honest.
And for the merfolk/suicide zoo case, what would have helped Siege Rhino #4 in that situation? (Note that I suggested to swap the fourth Siege Rhino for Souls for example) I bet overall, over time and over many games Souls would perform better against these decks than Siege Rhino. I clearly don't know what you are you trying to tell through all this, if you simply don't like Souls its ok, everyone has one's own playstyle.
About siege rhino, I guess this is the time to really let it go even though I love using them since I want to go the Flayer path with my build.
BTW, I also run value jund so I was wondering if it would also work with junk? I tried using it once with only 22 lands and what I noticed is the lack of delirium enablers. I also don't like Kalitas on my list so I am planning to change it to anafenza the foremost.
Here is my proposed value junk list:
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
4x Grim Flayer
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Anafenza, the Foremost
Spells: 22
4x Path to Exile
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
1x Collective Brutality
1x Nameless Inversion
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Lingering Souls
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Marsh Flats
2x Windswept Heath
4x Blooming Marsh
2x Shambling Vent
2x Stirring Wildwood
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Temple Garden
1x Godless Shrine
1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Plains
Possible changes I am thinking based on inputs above:
> -1 Anafenza, +1 Lingering souls
> -1 Blooming Marsh, +1 Vault of the Archangel/+1 Gavony Township
> -1 Sorin, +1 Liliana the last hope
Inputs?
WBG Abzan's Junk WBG
BRG Jund BRG
BRG Living End BRG
BGU Sultai BGU
EDH
R Purphoros, God of the Forge R
Pauper
RBGU Affinity RBGU
I really would cut Sorin in that low land list. I don't think this 4 drop is that great at all, its generally not really played in Abzan actually. I don't see the benefit of running him. I would also cut one Anafenza for Lingering Souls, which you suggested.
I don't know if this list would be viable or not, running Bobs is something Abzan players have tried in the past, but it never made it into the standard list really. And also simply because of Lingering Souls. People play Abzan mainly because of this card. If you wouldn't run it and want to run a value list with Bobs, why don't you just play Jund instead? Alone because of the fact, that it can support Bob better, for example.
I mean you could try it, it would be interesting if it performs well, but I actually doubt it. You basically cut the best cards in Abzan, Souls, to get into the same kind of mana curve distribution range like Jund, to support Bob basically. For me this means loss of consistancy. Also, the manabase seems kind of dangerous, you play potentially 8 taplands in only 22 lands total, I think that will cause problems. (For comparison: I worried about cutting the 24.land in jund for value jund as well and in jund you only run 7 potential taplands. The only real version which popped up was to cut a manland, going down to 6 potential taplands in 23 lands)
Overall though, I don't see the benefit in running Path/2 copies of Lingering Souls instead of Bolt plus terminate here. The rest is pretty much similar to Jund lists.
I don't hate the card. I like it quite a bit. I just don't see the need to blindly play 4x all the time just "because it is the consensus." 3 has always felt right and the above poster shouldn't be told "anything less than 4 is incorrect" becuause, for some people, it is. 4 copies may be more popular but people do have success with 3x
And @Aliyuss
Certainly you can't say Souls is the only reason to play Junk>Jund. Yes it is a fantastic card, but path gives Junk a better way to deal with things like Wurmcoil, for example. The addition of white SB is also a reason to play this style deck.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
Modern: Fish, JUND/Junk
--------
RIP Twin
If you play Junk to have Path against threat like Wurmcoil, imo, you are on the wrong path (lul). Junk is still very very bad against Tron.
I agree with you. For me, that was the long answer for the question: "Whats the reason to play Abzan?". And by saying: "Lingering Souls is the reason to play Abzan" it actually meant to be the short answer here (at least when I said it), because Lingering Souls exactly stands for the kind of strategy you explained Junk tries to do, for which I exactly meant your long reason. Plus I think 4 is the best way to get maximum consistancy in that strategy.
And this is also the reason I think value Junk will not be viable here. Red provides better tools to go for that route, which white doesn't in my oppinion. Overall I think "Lingering Souls is the reason to play Junk" is still valid, if it was meant right.
For the reason why I play junk, it is not just because of lingering souls, but also the sideboard that white has to offer just like what the others have said. Regarding our matchup against tron, it might just be me but I find that I play much comfortably using junk vs jund because of path to exile, stony silence and fulminator mage
WBG Abzan's Junk WBG
BRG Jund BRG
BRG Living End BRG
BGU Sultai BGU
EDH
R Purphoros, God of the Forge R
Pauper
RBGU Affinity RBGU
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster