As long as you have plenty of threats in your SB like Thrun, Sigarda, Kalitas, fulminator mage, and kitchen finks to bring in when you side out path/push, running 7 or 8 path/Pushes is fine. Modern is a creature format, and both of those cards are great, especially if you run Bob and are trying to run Junk like Jund, where you answer everything and then play a goyf, bob, lily, or souls.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Been Playing Jund/Abzan for a long time in modern though.
I'm going to be trying this list out (see below) - Any feedback/criticism is welcome!
**Note: My 1-of Bitterblossom is mainly to pitch to Liliana of the Veil, mill with Grim Flayer or add gas to Collective Brutality in order to Fuel Goyf. Also depending on the matchup, if you just
happen to have it in your opener it's actually a very powerful card.
I'm not so sure about my 1-of EE in the main, it's a flex slot. The 2x Finks Main is because Finks is a great beater, great vs Aggro, lower curve (I'm on 23 lands), and Finks doesn't care about removal. I really really want to play Bob in the deck as well, could be dumb but I'm giving it a try.
I know it seems unorthodox, maybe even bad to not run any Scavenging Ooze, but I always felt it was a little slow, and with Fatal Push coming out I think I'm going to try running without. Ooze was never enough for me to win vs Dredge anyway, and with the Grave Troll ban I'm going to try and just stick with 3x surgical and 1x Spellbomb in the side - should probably be a 2/2 split between the two but we'll see (the extra surgical is for more Tron/Valakut)
I think in your configuration you can easily play the full playset of Bob. Maybe cut the Bitterblossom and EE for it. This would mean more consistancy, which I would like more in this list. You could also try a 3/3 split with Flayer and keep the two flex cards in. But I would actually, if you want Finks MB and no Ooze, just Cut EE and Blossom, then put in another two Bobs, remove one Flayer and also add 1 Maelstrom Pulse. This then would look like this:
Hey folks, new to this archetype. I'm still amassing the cards for the deck, but I'm wondering if 3 or 4 Liliana of the Veil is standard? I ask because I have 3 already, and I'd rather spend the $100 on other crucial deck parts.
Hey folks, new to this archetype. I'm still amassing the cards for the deck, but I'm wondering if 3 or 4 Liliana of the Veil is standard? I ask because I have 3 already, and I'd rather spend the $100 on other crucial deck parts.
The 4th Liliana is pretty much optional. She obviously shines against control and (some) combo, so it will be meta dependant. It could be even a 1-of Liliana, the Last Hope.
Guys. What's the closest replancement for Gideon, Ally of Zendikar? I've tested him in Junk's sb and he's really good specially against the mirror or Midrange matchups and/or control. People seem to be holding unto them in my place rn. I want to run 2 in my sb. Is Sorin, Solemn Visitor still viable? One of the reason why I like Gideon is coz he stays at 4 loyalty and dodges bolt. I want a copy before GP Vanc. Might just run 1x Gideon and 1x Sorin/Garruk Relentess or just run 1 Gideon and put in another Nihil Spellbomb.
Btw, this is the list that I'm currently testing. Any inputs are greatly appreciated.
So this post is probably going to go against people’s preferences but from my testing, this is what I have concluded. With the printing of Fatal Push, I thought the deck can be lower to the ground and run Dark Confidant. My list ran 3 Pushes, 3 Confidant, 2 Rhinos, 2 Decays, 3 Paths, 1 Pulse, 3 Lillys. I literally could not beat infect or affinity with that list. It might be just me but I do not like Dark Confidant in Abzan. The curve of 3 drops is too high and bolting myself is a death sentence. Even against infect, it got to the point in some games where Hierarch could have swung for lethal with some pump spells.
I can see your issue. Bob is hard to enable in Junk, but remember, Junk has been running this kind of approach right before Siege Rhino has been printed. Here is a sample list before Siege Rhino:
This list runs 1 4-drop and 10 3-drops. To be fair though, you'd have to link this to the meta which was present at that time, so this may not say something meaningful, but I wanted to state it nevertheless
In regards to sideboarding, from what I’ve heard, Dredge is still going to be a deck, but not tier 1. I’ll probably cut the endless amount of dredge hate and go with more of an anti tron/ valakut package. The way the meta goes, Aggro will probably die down, midrange will rise, which will in turn, cause in increase in Tron and Scapeshift variants. Sad to say, but I think the Fulminator Mages are coming back in. Before, I felt like Fulminators were too slow against tron. Plus, since it was an aggro heavy meta, you can just hope to dodge those respective matchups. Now, I don’t think we can dodge Urza’s Tower.dec. That being said, Noble Hierarchs can power out turn 2 Fulminators which is REALLY good. When I previously ran Fulminators, I didn’t have a mana dork and always came out turn 3, which can be too slow on the draw. Now with Hierarchs, they can kind of work together and make each other worth running.
Turn 2 Fulminator is an argument. But I am very hesitant to run Nobles in Junk, Turn 2 Fulminator must be insanely good and the real way to beat Tron in order to make me run Nobles. Concerning Dredge though, I think its gonna be Tier 2 at best. Golgari Grave troll let them hard cast an incredibly big threat, which shined especially against decks like us. Not having the option doing this anymore, will really weaken it significantly I think. Its no mistake to still prepare for it though and see what happens.
Now for Siege Rhino. Unless Fatal Push truly drives <5 drops out (I highly doubt that), I’m still going with 3 Siege Rhinos. It gives the deck reach, a big body, and tramples. Rhinos have gotten me out of so many holes, I refuse to cut them until they really are bad in the meta. And even if it dies on the way out, draining for 3 can’t be underestimated. That being said, if Push is as good as we think it is, I can see cutting 1 Rhino for a Tasigur. Until then, 3 Rhinos for me.
Overall, my changes will be very minimal, once Aether Revolt is released. At least for the main deck. I have been winning a lot with the deck and I don’t see why I should make drastic changes unless otherwise needed. I will go -1 Abrupt Decay, -1 Path to Exile, +2 Fatal Push. My sideboard will be reconfigured a lot since Dredge will hopefully die off. Here will be my list post Aether Revolt.
I am personally not sold on Rhino, I have mixed feelings about him. In a slower metagame, which I expect, it will be better though. Won't be a mistake to run him for shure.
I really like the Fulminator + Surgical plan against tron as well as Valakut.
Surgical as GY hate on its own is fine. But I have said it before, do you really think Fulminator + Surgical will align consistantly against Tron/Valakut decks? In theory it sounds like a good plan, but needing a 2 card combo in order to beat a very bad MU doesn't feel like a good option. Its neither happening often enough nor is it helping for other MUs. I'd rather free up some SB slots and focus on something different.
1) I wouldn't run Grim Flayers without Noble Hierarchs. IMO theyre kind of a package. Hierarch helps fuel Flayers in two ways. It's a early mana dork and people always "bolt the bird", helping enable delirium. The exalted is also huge in helping Flayer connect. I wouldn't run 1 without the other. Plus the opportunity cost of running Hierarchs are so low. She takes over land slots so she isn't taking over any valuable deck space.
2) Regarding rhinos, they do feel clunky at times. However, Hierarchs also help ramp into him which feels great and the draining for 3 is just so huge in this format. One of Abzan's downsides compared to Jund is the fact that Jund has reach with Bolt. Rhinos provide that same reach.
3) I've tested against Tron with the 3/2 Fulminator Surgical Split and it is quite effective. I agree it does take up A LOT of sideboard space. But all that space that was dedicated to dredge can at least FOR NOW be dedicated to tron until the meta fully settles down after the ban/new cards. I am not saying the Fulminator/Surgical package is here to stay but I don't think it's a bad option now with the meta all unsettled at the moment.
And again, I know my list is very against the grain. However, it's the list I'm having the most success with so I'm just rolling with whats working.
Jund player here (mostly) but decided that I want to run Abzan in a competitive event on Sunday. I would love some feedback from more experienced players on the following list I'm thinking of registering
I'm expecting a lot of mirror matches, I also know there will be some number of Tron (meh...) decks, some control (UWx and Grixis), maybe burn and a couple of graveyard strategy decks (grishoalbrand, Living End and maybe a "Thug"-dredge).
So you really want GY hate cards since you expect Grixis and GY decks. 2 Nihil Spellbomb might not be sufficient enough, maybe you should run a Grafdigger's Cage as extra hate, or play 3 Leylines, or go up to 3 Spellbombs. I would go for 3 Leylines or 3 Spellbombs I think. Next I would recommend running 24 lands, you have 3 4-drops and Junk generally has a higher curve, you need that 24th land. I don't know what Zealous Persecution does here other than a little bit for the mirror MU, against the other MUs you posted, its not going to be great. I would cut that with something more impactful. I'd try Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, he is amazing.
Concerning your considerations: Bob won't be good in your list, your curve is to high, Collective Brutality is a good card, going up to 3 copies in your 75 is surely not a bad thing for Burn.
So this post is probably going to go against people’s preferences but from my testing, this is what I have concluded. With the printing of Fatal Push, I thought the deck can be lower to the ground and run Dark Confidant. My list ran 3 Pushes, 3 Confidant, 2 Rhinos, 2 Decays, 3 Paths, 1 Pulse, 3 Lillys. I literally could not beat infect or affinity with that list. It might be just me but I do not like Dark Confidant in Abzan. The curve of 3 drops is too high and bolting myself is a death sentence. Even against infect, it got to the point in some games where Hierarch could have swung for lethal with some pump spells.
I can see your issue. Bob is hard to enable in Junk, but remember, Junk has been running this kind of approach right before Siege Rhino has been printed. Here is a sample list before Siege Rhino:
This list runs 1 4-drop and 10 3-drops. To be fair though, you'd have to link this to the meta which was present at that time, so this may not say something meaningful, but I wanted to state it nevertheless
In regards to sideboarding, from what I’ve heard, Dredge is still going to be a deck, but not tier 1. I’ll probably cut the endless amount of dredge hate and go with more of an anti tron/ valakut package. The way the meta goes, Aggro will probably die down, midrange will rise, which will in turn, cause in increase in Tron and Scapeshift variants. Sad to say, but I think the Fulminator Mages are coming back in. Before, I felt like Fulminators were too slow against tron. Plus, since it was an aggro heavy meta, you can just hope to dodge those respective matchups. Now, I don’t think we can dodge Urza’s Tower.dec. That being said, Noble Hierarchs can power out turn 2 Fulminators which is REALLY good. When I previously ran Fulminators, I didn’t have a mana dork and always came out turn 3, which can be too slow on the draw. Now with Hierarchs, they can kind of work together and make each other worth running.
Turn 2 Fulminator is an argument. But I am very hesitant to run Nobles in Junk, Turn 2 Fulminator must be insanely good and the real way to beat Tron in order to make me run Nobles. Concerning Dredge though, I think its gonna be Tier 2 at best. Golgari Grave troll let them hard cast an incredibly big threat, which shined especially against decks like us. Not having the option doing this anymore, will really weaken it significantly I think. Its no mistake to still prepare for it though and see what happens.
Now for Siege Rhino. Unless Fatal Push truly drives <5 drops out (I highly doubt that), I’m still going with 3 Siege Rhinos. It gives the deck reach, a big body, and tramples. Rhinos have gotten me out of so many holes, I refuse to cut them until they really are bad in the meta. And even if it dies on the way out, draining for 3 can’t be underestimated. That being said, if Push is as good as we think it is, I can see cutting 1 Rhino for a Tasigur. Until then, 3 Rhinos for me.
Overall, my changes will be very minimal, once Aether Revolt is released. At least for the main deck. I have been winning a lot with the deck and I don’t see why I should make drastic changes unless otherwise needed. I will go -1 Abrupt Decay, -1 Path to Exile, +2 Fatal Push. My sideboard will be reconfigured a lot since Dredge will hopefully die off. Here will be my list post Aether Revolt.
I am personally not sold on Rhino, I have mixed feelings about him. In a slower metagame, which I expect, it will be better though. Won't be a mistake to run him for shure.
I really like the Fulminator + Surgical plan against tron as well as Valakut.
Surgical as GY hate on its own is fine. But I have said it before, do you really think Fulminator + Surgical will align consistantly against Tron/Valakut decks? In theory it sounds like a good plan, but needing a 2 card combo in order to beat a very bad MU doesn't feel like a good option. Its neither happening often enough nor is it helping for other MUs. I'd rather free up some SB slots and focus on something different.
1) I wouldn't run Grim Flayers without Noble Hierarchs. IMO theyre kind of a package. Hierarch helps fuel Flayers in two ways. It's a early mana dork and people always "bolt the bird", helping enable delirium. The exalted is also huge in helping Flayer connect. I wouldn't run 1 without the other. Plus the opportunity cost of running Hierarchs are so low. She takes over land slots so she isn't taking over any valuable deck space.
2) Regarding rhinos, they do feel clunky at times. However, Hierarchs also help ramp into him which feels great and the draining for 3 is just so huge in this format. One of Abzan's downsides compared to Jund is the fact that Jund has reach with Bolt. Rhinos provide that same reach.
3) I've tested against Tron with the 3/2 Fulminator Surgical Split and it is quite effective. I agree it does take up A LOT of sideboard space. But all that space that was dedicated to dredge can at least FOR NOW be dedicated to tron until the meta fully settles down after the ban/new cards. I am not saying the Fulminator/Surgical package is here to stay but I don't think it's a bad option now with the meta all unsettled at the moment.
And again, I know my list is very against the grain. However, it's the list I'm having the most success with so I'm just rolling with whats working.
I can agree with that, that are good points. In the long run though, I think Fulminator + Surgical is not our go to answer for Tron, it may work like it did for you, but its seems so unlikely. I don't quite like that. We'll see how it turns out.
I'm also wondering about Dark Confidant: is it absolutely necessary for the deck to function? Or are there Bob-less versions as well?
In fact, most lists don't run Bob. Before Siege Rhino and Tasigur have been printed, Bob was all over the place in Junk, but since Rhino Bob kind of was gone. Just recently we see more low to the ground lists with Bob included. However, Grim Flayer was an immediate inclusion for the deck as he came out. He just is the "Junk-Bob". The end of the story: You can run Junk with and without bob right now. There has not yet been a concensus about which configuration is best.
KoDiamonds: you said that you think that you can't play Grim Flayer without noble Hierarch since they go well together. What would you do if you don't run Noble Hierach? I mean I don't like her in Junk at all but Bob seems a bit too risky with Tasigur who will definitely see lots of play in the future due to Fatal Push. Would you still play Grim Flayer or not? I think you can play him without Hierach and it shouldn't be a problem but would like to hear your opinion since you're more familiar with Junk than me. To the side note: as you probably know (if you read my posts) I don't like Flayer as a card very much but with Tasigur I'm afraid that I can't play Bob-with one Tasigur is still fine probably but if I'll go up to two, which is very possible if Fatal Push will be as played as expected, then I think Bob is no go.
I agree with that generally. The syngergy with Noble is surely a thing, but not the reason to not run Flayer without Nobles I think. I have the same issue, I want to run Bob, but Tasigur is a problem, which, on its own, seems to be a great card now. And skipping Tasigurs seems like a wrong idea in my opinion, simply because of Push. Maybe one copy will be sufficient enough, I don't know. You could maybe run a Bob list with Goyf, Ooze, 1 Tasigur and some Finks MB? Not only do you lower your curve, you also have more lifegain to compensate for Tasigur. Maybe something like this as creature base:
Concerning Tasigur: why play him over Gurmag Angler? Does his ability actually get used here? Rather, is Tasigur intended to correspond with Grim Flayer to kind of reset Delirium, or are they anti-synergistic?
Might I also ask: what does the creature package look like in the non-Bob lists?
Concerning Tasigur: why play him over Gurmag Angler? Does his ability actually get used here? Rather, is Tasigur intended to correspond with Grim Flayer to kind of reset Delirium, or are they anti-synergistic?
Might I also ask: what does the creature package look like in the non-Bob lists?
Oh, Gurmag angler does need one mroe card to delve and is simply a creature. Tasigurs ability is maybe the only real reason to run him in the first place. This ability gets activated a lot, believe me.
In Noble Hierach lists there are also 3 Nobles in it. Sometimes ther are more Rhinos, sometimes less. Sometimes there are also less Flayers. Its all a bit preference topic and no rule topic right now.
But Xenago's list had exactly 0 4drops so I'm not sure how that really follows. If anything that means Jund would take more damage as it has actual 4 drops.
I am not saying you can't run Bobs, thats just the reason Bob isn't that much played in Junk and is somewhat out of favour. Xentagos Bob list looks perfectly fine.
Ok, a random question: Has Tombstalker ever been tried out in junk/jund?
Not really. And if yes, certainly not alongside Bob. The benefit isn't that high compared to Tasigur, Tombstalker is just worse. Flying is ok, but its just one power more than Tasigur and can't grind like him. Tasigurs ability is the real deal. Lastly, double black is a thing sometimes as you need at least two mana to cast him.
KoDiamonds: you said that you think that you can't play Grim Flayer without noble Hierarch since they go well together. What would you do if you don't run Noble Hierach? I mean I don't like her in Junk at all but Bob seems a bit too risky with Tasigur who will definitely see lots of play in the future due to Fatal Push. Would you still play Grim Flayer or not? I think you can play him without Hierach and it shouldn't be a problem but would like to hear your opinion since you're more familiar with Junk than me. To the side note: as you probably know (if you read my posts) I don't like Flayer as a card very much but with Tasigur I'm afraid that I can't play Bob-with one Tasigur is still fine probably but if I'll go up to two, which is very possible if Fatal Push will be as played as expected, then I think Bob is no go.
If I was forced to cut Nobles, then I am not sure what I would do. My first draft with Push had Bobs, Flayers, Tasigurs, but no Hierarchs and it just didn't flow at all. When was the last time you tried Noble Hierarchs in Abzan? I originally had her a long time ago (maybe a year agoish) and she was bad. Like really bad. Now with Grim Flayer and some 4 drops in Rhinos to ramp into, she really does gel the deck together. When play testing my nobleless list, I really missed the exalted trigger on top of just have access to more creatures in the list. More creatures = more likely one of them dies = easier to hit delirium. Not to mention, that extra damage helps matchups where I need to race on top of being able to connect with Flayer.
We'll see how the meta settles post-Aether Revolt but ever since Grim Flayer was printed and I jammed Hierarchs, my winning percentage has shot through the roof at my LGS. (2-1, 3-0, 3-0, 2-1, 3-0, 3-0, 2-1, 2-1, 2-1, 2-1, 3-0, 2-1, 3-0, 2-1, 2-1. Totalling 36-9). It might be different with a different meta after the ban but I have had a lot of success with a Hierarch+Flayer+Rhino+NoBob build that I don't think I should drastically change my list unless I need to.
That being said, it's coming to a point where there are going to be too many "good-stuff" cards to jam into our decks. Eventually somethings going to get cut and it's all going to come down to personal preference and finding what specific build you like. Some people like Hierarch+Flayer builds. Others like Rhino builds. I like Both. Some people prefer Bob builds. It's going to all mix and match and something I like is something totally different than what you will like.
And I wouldn't rule out Tasigur in bob builds. I mean, Jund ran him with 4 bobs before Kalitas was printed so I don't think you should fear in Abzan.
@KorDiamonds I agree that ramping into Siege Rhino on turn 3 or into Lingering Souls turn 2 with Nobles seems really good. Nobles just seem like somewhat a bad topdeck later in the game I fear. How often did that happen to you KorDiamonds?
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Been Playing Jund/Abzan for a long time in modern though.
I'm going to be trying this list out (see below) - Any feedback/criticism is welcome!
**Note: My 1-of Bitterblossom is mainly to pitch to Liliana of the Veil, mill with Grim Flayer or add gas to Collective Brutality in order to Fuel Goyf. Also depending on the matchup, if you just
happen to have it in your opener it's actually a very powerful card.
I'm not so sure about my 1-of EE in the main, it's a flex slot. The 2x Finks Main is because Finks is a great beater, great vs Aggro, lower curve (I'm on 23 lands), and Finks doesn't care about removal. I really really want to play Bob in the deck as well, could be dumb but I'm giving it a try.
I know it seems unorthodox, maybe even bad to not run any Scavenging Ooze, but I always felt it was a little slow, and with Fatal Push coming out I think I'm going to try running without. Ooze was never enough for me to win vs Dredge anyway, and with the Grave Troll ban I'm going to try and just stick with 3x surgical and 1x Spellbomb in the side - should probably be a 2/2 split between the two but we'll see (the extra surgical is for more Tron/Valakut)
4x Blooming Marsh
1x Forest
1x Godless Shrine
3x Marsh Flats
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
2x Shambling Vent
1x Stirring Wildwood
2x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
[Sorcery]
1x Collective Brutality
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
3x Thoughtseize
2x Dark Confidant
4x Grim Flayer
2x Kitchen Finks
4x Tarmogoyf
[Instant]
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Fatal Push
3x Path to Exile
[Artifact]
1x Engineered Explosives
[Planeswalker]
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
[Enchantment]
1x Bitterblossom
2x Blessed Alliance
1x Collective Brutality
1x Damnation
3x Fulminator Mage
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Stony Silence
3x Surgical Extraction
4x Blooming Marsh
1x Forest
1x Godless Shrine
3x Marsh Flats
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
2x Shambling Vent
1x Stirring Wildwood
2x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
[Sorcery]
1x Collective Brutality
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
3x Thoughtseize
1x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Dark Confidant
3x Grim Flayer
2x Kitchen Finks
4x Tarmogoyf
[Instant]
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Fatal Push
3x Path to Exile
[Planeswalker]
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Blessed Alliance
1x Collective Brutality
1x Damnation
3x Fulminator Mage
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Stony Silence
3x Surgical Extraction
The 4th Liliana is pretty much optional. She obviously shines against control and (some) combo, so it will be meta dependant. It could be even a 1-of Liliana, the Last Hope.
Btw, this is the list that I'm currently testing. Any inputs are greatly appreciated.
4x Dark Confidant
3x Grim Flayer
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
Instants
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Path to Exile
4x Fatal Push
1x Collective Brutality
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Lingering Souls
Planeswalker
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Nihil Spellbomb
3x Fulminator Mage
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
3x Stony Silence
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Collective Brutality
1x Damnation
Modern.
GBW Junk
GBR Jund
UG Infect
1) I wouldn't run Grim Flayers without Noble Hierarchs. IMO theyre kind of a package. Hierarch helps fuel Flayers in two ways. It's a early mana dork and people always "bolt the bird", helping enable delirium. The exalted is also huge in helping Flayer connect. I wouldn't run 1 without the other. Plus the opportunity cost of running Hierarchs are so low. She takes over land slots so she isn't taking over any valuable deck space.
2) Regarding rhinos, they do feel clunky at times. However, Hierarchs also help ramp into him which feels great and the draining for 3 is just so huge in this format. One of Abzan's downsides compared to Jund is the fact that Jund has reach with Bolt. Rhinos provide that same reach.
3) I've tested against Tron with the 3/2 Fulminator Surgical Split and it is quite effective. I agree it does take up A LOT of sideboard space. But all that space that was dedicated to dredge can at least FOR NOW be dedicated to tron until the meta fully settles down after the ban/new cards. I am not saying the Fulminator/Surgical package is here to stay but I don't think it's a bad option now with the meta all unsettled at the moment.
And again, I know my list is very against the grain. However, it's the list I'm having the most success with so I'm just rolling with whats working.
So you really want GY hate cards since you expect Grixis and GY decks. 2 Nihil Spellbomb might not be sufficient enough, maybe you should run a Grafdigger's Cage as extra hate, or play 3 Leylines, or go up to 3 Spellbombs. I would go for 3 Leylines or 3 Spellbombs I think. Next I would recommend running 24 lands, you have 3 4-drops and Junk generally has a higher curve, you need that 24th land. I don't know what Zealous Persecution does here other than a little bit for the mirror MU, against the other MUs you posted, its not going to be great. I would cut that with something more impactful. I'd try Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, he is amazing.
Concerning your considerations: Bob won't be good in your list, your curve is to high, Collective Brutality is a good card, going up to 3 copies in your 75 is surely not a bad thing for Burn.
I can agree with that, that are good points. In the long run though, I think Fulminator + Surgical is not our go to answer for Tron, it may work like it did for you, but its seems so unlikely. I don't quite like that. We'll see how it turns out.
I'm imagining Painful Truths working in a similar capacity, but I could be totally wrong.
In fact, most lists don't run Bob. Before Siege Rhino and Tasigur have been printed, Bob was all over the place in Junk, but since Rhino Bob kind of was gone. Just recently we see more low to the ground lists with Bob included. However, Grim Flayer was an immediate inclusion for the deck as he came out. He just is the "Junk-Bob". The end of the story: You can run Junk with and without bob right now. There has not yet been a concensus about which configuration is best.
I agree with that generally. The syngergy with Noble is surely a thing, but not the reason to not run Flayer without Nobles I think. I have the same issue, I want to run Bob, but Tasigur is a problem, which, on its own, seems to be a great card now. And skipping Tasigurs seems like a wrong idea in my opinion, simply because of Push. Maybe one copy will be sufficient enough, I don't know. You could maybe run a Bob list with Goyf, Ooze, 1 Tasigur and some Finks MB? Not only do you lower your curve, you also have more lifegain to compensate for Tasigur. Maybe something like this as creature base:
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tasigur, the golden Fang
2 Kitchen Finks
Siege Rhino on the other hand is great as well. Hard to find a compromise...
Might I also ask: what does the creature package look like in the non-Bob lists?
The problem is maybe not the average CMC, I've talked about this before, have a look: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/tier-1-modern/511600-abzan-midrange-junk-bgw-souls-bg-rock?comment=4364
Oh, Gurmag angler does need one mroe card to delve and is simply a creature. Tasigurs ability is maybe the only real reason to run him in the first place. This ability gets activated a lot, believe me.
Creature package usually looks somethign like:
4 Grim Flayer
2 Scavenging Oozes
2 Siege Rhino
1 Tasigur
In Noble Hierach lists there are also 3 Nobles in it. Sometimes ther are more Rhinos, sometimes less. Sometimes there are also less Flayers. Its all a bit preference topic and no rule topic right now.
The noble creature base is generally:
4 Grim Flayer
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Siege Rhino
3 Noble Hierach
I am not saying you can't run Bobs, thats just the reason Bob isn't that much played in Junk and is somewhat out of favour. Xentagos Bob list looks perfectly fine.
Not really. And if yes, certainly not alongside Bob. The benefit isn't that high compared to Tasigur, Tombstalker is just worse. Flying is ok, but its just one power more than Tasigur and can't grind like him. Tasigurs ability is the real deal. Lastly, double black is a thing sometimes as you need at least two mana to cast him.
If I was forced to cut Nobles, then I am not sure what I would do. My first draft with Push had Bobs, Flayers, Tasigurs, but no Hierarchs and it just didn't flow at all. When was the last time you tried Noble Hierarchs in Abzan? I originally had her a long time ago (maybe a year agoish) and she was bad. Like really bad. Now with Grim Flayer and some 4 drops in Rhinos to ramp into, she really does gel the deck together. When play testing my nobleless list, I really missed the exalted trigger on top of just have access to more creatures in the list. More creatures = more likely one of them dies = easier to hit delirium. Not to mention, that extra damage helps matchups where I need to race on top of being able to connect with Flayer.
We'll see how the meta settles post-Aether Revolt but ever since Grim Flayer was printed and I jammed Hierarchs, my winning percentage has shot through the roof at my LGS. (2-1, 3-0, 3-0, 2-1, 3-0, 3-0, 2-1, 2-1, 2-1, 2-1, 3-0, 2-1, 3-0, 2-1, 2-1. Totalling 36-9). It might be different with a different meta after the ban but I have had a lot of success with a Hierarch+Flayer+Rhino+NoBob build that I don't think I should drastically change my list unless I need to.
That being said, it's coming to a point where there are going to be too many "good-stuff" cards to jam into our decks. Eventually somethings going to get cut and it's all going to come down to personal preference and finding what specific build you like. Some people like Hierarch+Flayer builds. Others like Rhino builds. I like Both. Some people prefer Bob builds. It's going to all mix and match and something I like is something totally different than what you will like.
And I wouldn't rule out Tasigur in bob builds. I mean, Jund ran him with 4 bobs before Kalitas was printed so I don't think you should fear in Abzan.
A long time ago, yes. Don't think it was any lists that had major success though.
Modern Junk Primer
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