We are looking here for options against tron, so far the card that has been chosen to fight this matchup was Tezzeret. We can't tutor Tezzeret and if we get lucky seeing it on the game we may need a few turns to have 10 artifacts in game.
Ward of the bones is tutorable and make the tron player unable to play Ulamog/worldbraker, usually we can fight the rest of the deck with ours needle/mill rocks.
Not sure if you are on Twitter, but if you are I would suggest following Zac Elsik (if you don't already). A few days ago he was discussing that the reason Tron is a bad match up for Lantern is because of one singular card:
For the uninitiated, the 'Draw a card' effect on Chromatic Sphere doesn't use the stack since it is part of a mana ability. This means the Tron is able to draw what they need through our lock provided they have a Sphere. This makes the match up difficult because if our opponent needs a specific card to do well against us, they usually will hold up a Sphere until that card is on top, and then they will draw the card and we will have no way to prevent it.
If the problem with Tron as a match up was them casting big things like Karn, Ugin, Ulamog, etc. then Eldrazi Tron would also be a problem match up. However our Eldrazi Tron match up is infinitely better than standard Tron, specifically because Eldrazi Tron does not run Chromatic Sphere.
So if you want to try to figure out ways to make the Tron match up better, the first place I would start is Phyrexian Revoker. Not only is it much cheaper than Ward, and can be tutored for with Whir, but it is able to turn off mana abilities, and thus fix our Chromatic Sphere problem. If you still want cards to fight along the angle of dealing with their lands, than I would suggest Crumble to Dust since it's cheaper, and while it can't be tutored for with Whir, you can grab it off of an Ancient Stirrings because it is colourless.
Lantern as a deck came into being long after Ward of Bones was released. If it was any good, people would have tested it and used it a long time ago. The fact remains that it costs 6 mana so it comes down way too late for it to do anything. You talk about it stopping them from casting World Breaker or Ulamog, but a good Tron draw can play World Breaker on turn 3, and an Ulamog on turn 4. Hell an average Tron draw will play Breaker on 4 and an Ulamog on 5. So if we are on the draw, there is a 0% chance of us landing Ward of Bones before they cast World Breaker, and the only way we play it before they cast Ulamog is if we get lucky, and get 4 land and 2 Opals for turn 4. Hell maybe we can get suuuuuper crazy lucky and have 3 Opals and 3 land we can maybe play a Ward on turn 3. However hedging on these is not being reasonable. You don't play a card because of the 1% of the time it can be good.
If we are trying to lean on Whir to get Ward of Bones in play, we need at a minimum 3 blue mana sources alongside 6 artifacts. Again, this is a nigh impossibility on actually being able to land the card before a reasonable Tron opponent can play their World Breaker or Ulamog. If we want to land Ward on Turn 3 (So we can stop them from casting World Breaker), we need, as stated before, 3 lands, 6 artifacts, and a Whir of Invention. That is 10 cards. Let me repeat that. That is TEN cards. By Turn 3, if we are on the play we've only seen 9 cards so it is literally physically impossible for us to play the card. If we are on the draw we need exactly 6 Artifacts, 3 Blue Sources, and Whir. Do you see why I am saying Ward of Bones is bad? You can only reasonably play it once you are so late in the game it doesn't even matter. If you've made it to a point in the card where you can play Ward of Bones, you should be in a good enough situation where you can just win the game. And if you are in a position where you would still want some more cards to help seal the match, Phyrexian Revoker would literally be 1000x better than getting a Ward of Bones into play.
I am usually open to trying new things and expanding what the deck can do, but this card is literally a dead end. It does nothing.
I agree that Chromatic Sphere is a huge problem in the Gx Tron matchup, but I would disagree that it's the sole deciding factor, or even then most significant factor, between why the Gx Tron matchup is harder than the Eldrazitron matchup. The reason why the Eldrazitron matchup is so much easier is that we only need, basically, one Ensnaring Bridge and maybe a Pithing Needle or two to win that match. The lock isn't even necessarily very important, as two Needles and a Bridge is often enough, and we only then need to not allow them to get Ulamog or Karn after that (if it isn't Needled already). Essentially, the Eldrazitron matchup now is similar to how the Gx Tron matchup used to be.
The Gx Tron matchup, however, is not like this at all. An Ensnaring Bridge doesn't stop World Breaker or Ulamog's cast trigger, nor does it stop an Oblivion Stone. A Pithing Needle only shuts off either Karn, Oblivion Stone, World Breaker coming back, or Ugin, and doesn't help against a cast World Breaker, Ulamog, or Wurmcoil Engine. On top of all of this, Gx Tron runs more instant-speed draw effects (plus the mana-speed draw effect of Chromatic Sphere), and many more shuffle effects. And that's just pre-board. Postboard, they run more cards that actually remove our permanents rather than Chalice of the Void, which only delays us at best if we're running the Whir version (and only stops further 1cmc cards from being cast, not helping if we have a turn 1-2 lock in place already). And then there's Ancient Stirrings, which can grab a diverse number of threats, which Eldrazitron doesn't run.
I'm looking to build lantern control here soon. I already play control at my lgs, I'm the only one that does.(W/U and esper draw go) I've faced lantern at some pptq and scg events and it looks like a blast. I'm really only missing a few opals, bridges and the academy ruins to build it. But I guess my question is which version is better? B/G or the whirl build? My meta is mainly aggro with a few combo decks floating around.
So I just tried Mindshrieker in the sideboard for funsies, and brought it in against Abzan. In G3 I had no Bridge and no millrocks, but I landed the bird on T2 and had lots of lands. It got really good at 4+ lands, where I was able to mill their creatures and swing in for 3-7 dmg a turn. I'm surprised at how well it did at both racing, blocking, and draw control.
I need to do lots more testing of course, but this might be a pretty good idea to run a couple in the side or something.
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I have an idea for tron and Titan shift we could try 2 disdainful strokes sideboard for them because even if they are in our hand with a bridge it really doesn't matter.
The problem with Tron is even countering there worldbreaker or Ulamog does not help since their on cast triggers already happened and did the damage. Against Titanshift we have Orb which i think improves that matchup drastically.
Maybe Jester's Cap is the best way to battle tron, has anyone tested this card in that matchup yet?
Also thank you Skitzafreak for your analysis on why ward of bones is not good. I think you are right about that card. Although i feel that your tron MU analysis stating that chromatic sphere is the most problematic card is a little bit of. Yes chromatic sphere is a problem, but so are the other 30 options that tron can draw which results in them breaking the lock, by getting to an ulamog/worldbreaker. It is probably still a good idea to have a 1 of revoker in the sideboard, but I feel that is not enough to make the matchup even for the whir list.
I've tested a little bit with Jester's Cap, and it did wonders. I do think that it still needs more testing. I've also considered running Revoker over Needle in the side.
Please take all ban talk to the The State of Modern Thread. This is a warning to the entire thread. If you have questions heck over the subforum rules or feel free to PM the mods.
Thank you Torpf. This happens every time Ban season rolls around T_T
Anyway, getting back on topic, I have a question.
Has anyone been trying out Search for Azcanta in the side or the main? How has it been working for you? I need to get a few copies for another deck, but can't seem to find any anywhere. If they're super good I'll just order them online.
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
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Great write up. Honestly, Mindshrieker is a card I have been wanting to test because it just seems hilarious in Lantern. My of my biggest deterrents however is that Shrieker turns on our opponents removal. Yet this also makes it a great sideboard card, since our opponents will take out said removal.
Shrieker seems like a card that would be great in grindy match-ups, which just so happen to be match ups that usually involve our opponent's boarding in Stony Silence.
Personally, I want to see if this card does anything for the Tron match up. I feel like it becomes a real clock especially if we are milling things like Karn Liberated and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon with it.
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I have tested this vs Tron... and let's just say hitting your opponent with an 11/11 turdburd is an awesome way to close a game. That's another benefit to using it against grindy or big decks; its power level goes up as your opponent's average CMC increases.
The extra draw control is handy too. Tron is still not easy, but 4-5 activations instead of 2-3 a turn makes it loads better... if you survive to T4/5 with everything intact that is.
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I have also compared it to Search for Azcanta, since the two are usually brought in for similar matchups and have the same mana cost.
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I was just playing against a GWx creature toolbox/valuetown deck featuring Eldritch Evolution, CoCo, Chord, and all the goodstuff. Sided in Shriekers G2... After some trading, I had Lantern + Jars + Shrieker + 3 mana in play (no Bridge yet), and they had Voice + Resto in play.
I saw Eldritch Evolution on top their deck, so on their upkeep I used Shrieker to mill them. This both fixed their topdeck and buffed Shrieker to a 4/4, preventing them from attacking profitably and buying me time to find Bridge.
It seems like every time I play with Mindshrieker, I find a new game-winning use for it... I think I might really be onto something here.
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I will be attending an SCG Modern Invitational Qualifier tournament this Saturday. I will hopefully be able to make a good tournament report when I return. I am planning on using Mindshriekers in the sideboard (considering 2) and will at least be testing them in a small Modern FNM on Friday.
With any luck, the 2 Decays with the Shreikers should be enough ways to get around or deal with Stony Silence.
I only have the 1 Search because my god they are impossible to find where I live O_O
Any thoughts, questions, or criticisms are welcome.
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Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
So I am not normally the guy who goes gaga over spoilers. But one just showed up that looked extremely interesting to me:
Mastermind's Acquisition 2BB
Sorcery
Choose One:
Search your library for a card, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library
Choose a card you own from outside the game and put it into your hand
My first thought with this, is that for those people still running BG Lantern, this gives you a way to essentially have silver bullet answers in the main, the same way the Whir build does with say Cage, and Witchbane. If you need something specific in your deck, then you can Diabolic Tutor for it. However if there is a card in your sideboard that you desperately need, you can Death Wish for it without the life loss. Not that seems great to me.
For those of us on the Whir build, it'll probably be less useful. However I'm willing to try it out as a 1-of. Being able to maybe grab one of the Tezzerets out of my board in game 1 can be a quick way to lock up an otherwise stalled out game.
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Hmmmmmmm... you may be onto something. I will throw it in Infernal Tutor's spot and see what happens...
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I agree that Chromatic Sphere is a huge problem in the Gx Tron matchup, but I would disagree that it's the sole deciding factor, or even then most significant factor, between why the Gx Tron matchup is harder than the Eldrazitron matchup. The reason why the Eldrazitron matchup is so much easier is that we only need, basically, one Ensnaring Bridge and maybe a Pithing Needle or two to win that match. The lock isn't even necessarily very important, as two Needles and a Bridge is often enough, and we only then need to not allow them to get Ulamog or Karn after that (if it isn't Needled already). Essentially, the Eldrazitron matchup now is similar to how the Gx Tron matchup used to be.
The Gx Tron matchup, however, is not like this at all. An Ensnaring Bridge doesn't stop World Breaker or Ulamog's cast trigger, nor does it stop an Oblivion Stone. A Pithing Needle only shuts off either Karn, Oblivion Stone, World Breaker coming back, or Ugin, and doesn't help against a cast World Breaker, Ulamog, or Wurmcoil Engine. On top of all of this, Gx Tron runs more instant-speed draw effects (plus the mana-speed draw effect of Chromatic Sphere), and many more shuffle effects. And that's just pre-board. Postboard, they run more cards that actually remove our permanents rather than Chalice of the Void, which only delays us at best if we're running the Whir version (and only stops further 1cmc cards from being cast, not helping if we have a turn 1-2 lock in place already). And then there's Ancient Stirrings, which can grab a diverse number of threats, which Eldrazitron doesn't run.
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
I need to do lots more testing of course, but this might be a pretty good idea to run a couple in the side or something.
MODERN – LANTERN (aka Fateseal or Barbershop)
Primer – Subreddit – Facebook – Decklist – Gameplay
Thnkr's Content: Gameplay – Datasheet
Each eye sees a different possibility for tomorrow.
CWUBBCCCCCCCBGBGBGCCCCCCCGGURC
Here is a link to the playlist.
Feel free to offer me harsh criticisms on my play ability (or inability in some instances lol)
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Maybe Jester's Cap is the best way to battle tron, has anyone tested this card in that matchup yet?
Also thank you Skitzafreak for your analysis on why ward of bones is not good. I think you are right about that card. Although i feel that your tron MU analysis stating that chromatic sphere is the most problematic card is a little bit of. Yes chromatic sphere is a problem, but so are the other 30 options that tron can draw which results in them breaking the lock, by getting to an ulamog/worldbreaker. It is probably still a good idea to have a 1 of revoker in the sideboard, but I feel that is not enough to make the matchup even for the whir list.
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
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StaffMTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Anyway, getting back on topic, I have a question.
Has anyone been trying out Search for Azcanta in the side or the main? How has it been working for you? I need to get a few copies for another deck, but can't seem to find any anywhere. If they're super good I'll just order them online.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
MODERN – LANTERN (aka Fateseal or Barbershop)
Primer – Subreddit – Facebook – Decklist – Gameplay
Thnkr's Content: Gameplay – Datasheet
Each eye sees a different possibility for tomorrow.
CWUBBCCCCCCCBGBGBGCCCCCCCGGURC
Great write up. Honestly, Mindshrieker is a card I have been wanting to test because it just seems hilarious in Lantern. My of my biggest deterrents however is that Shrieker turns on our opponents removal. Yet this also makes it a great sideboard card, since our opponents will take out said removal.
Shrieker seems like a card that would be great in grindy match-ups, which just so happen to be match ups that usually involve our opponent's boarding in Stony Silence.
Personally, I want to see if this card does anything for the Tron match up. I feel like it becomes a real clock especially if we are milling things like Karn Liberated and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon with it.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
The extra draw control is handy too. Tron is still not easy, but 4-5 activations instead of 2-3 a turn makes it loads better... if you survive to T4/5 with everything intact that is.
MODERN – LANTERN (aka Fateseal or Barbershop)
Primer – Subreddit – Facebook – Decklist – Gameplay
Thnkr's Content: Gameplay – Datasheet
Each eye sees a different possibility for tomorrow.
CWUBBCCCCCCCBGBGBGCCCCCCCGGURC
MODERN – LANTERN (aka Fateseal or Barbershop)
Primer – Subreddit – Facebook – Decklist – Gameplay
Thnkr's Content: Gameplay – Datasheet
Each eye sees a different possibility for tomorrow.
CWUBBCCCCCCCBGBGBGCCCCCCCGGURC
I saw Eldritch Evolution on top their deck, so on their upkeep I used Shrieker to mill them. This both fixed their topdeck and buffed Shrieker to a 4/4, preventing them from attacking profitably and buying me time to find Bridge.
It seems like every time I play with Mindshrieker, I find a new game-winning use for it... I think I might really be onto something here.
MODERN – LANTERN (aka Fateseal or Barbershop)
Primer – Subreddit – Facebook – Decklist – Gameplay
Thnkr's Content: Gameplay – Datasheet
Each eye sees a different possibility for tomorrow.
CWUBBCCCCCCCBGBGBGCCCCCCCGGURC
Currently this is the list I plan on using:
4x Glimmervoid
4x Mox Opal
4x Spire of Industry
3x Botanical Sanctum
3x Darkslick Shores
1x Academy Ruins
1x Inventors' Fair
2x Island
Spells - 15
4x Ancient Stirrings
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Whir of Invention
3x Thoughtseize
4x Codex Shredder
4x Lantern of Insight
4x Mishra's Bauble
3x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Pithing Needle
2x Pyxis of Pandemonium
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Pyrite Spellbomb
1x Witchbane Orb
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Collective Brutality
1x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Mindshrieker
1x Porphyry Nodes
1x Pyroclasm
1x Search for Azcanta
2x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2x Welding Jar
With any luck, the 2 Decays with the Shreikers should be enough ways to get around or deal with Stony Silence.
I only have the 1 Search because my god they are impossible to find where I live O_O
Any thoughts, questions, or criticisms are welcome.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Mastermind's Acquisition 2BB
Sorcery
Choose One:
My first thought with this, is that for those people still running BG Lantern, this gives you a way to essentially have silver bullet answers in the main, the same way the Whir build does with say Cage, and Witchbane. If you need something specific in your deck, then you can Diabolic Tutor for it. However if there is a card in your sideboard that you desperately need, you can Death Wish for it without the life loss. Not that seems great to me.
For those of us on the Whir build, it'll probably be less useful. However I'm willing to try it out as a 1-of. Being able to maybe grab one of the Tezzerets out of my board in game 1 can be a quick way to lock up an otherwise stalled out game.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
MODERN – LANTERN (aka Fateseal or Barbershop)
Primer – Subreddit – Facebook – Decklist – Gameplay
Thnkr's Content: Gameplay – Datasheet
Each eye sees a different possibility for tomorrow.
CWUBBCCCCCCCBGBGBGCCCCCCCGGURC
For Whir variant, has anyone considered Sunken Ruins for mana fixing ?