I'd say it could replace a cantrip like sleight of hand or serum visions and the 3rd Pact of Negation, I've been finding it better with 2 instead of 3. Could even replace 1 spoils of the vault.
And have you never lost a game because you didn't have a bloom in your starting hand?
To be able to not have bloom in your starting hand but instant speed it out at the end of their turn 3 seems good imo.
The fact that it's instant speed is why it's worth considering.
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When the task spilled over into undeath, he stopped calling it his life's work.
Decks
Standard: GBGB EnergyGB GRGR EnergyGR
Modern: RBUWAd NauseamRBUW GRGR TitanshiftGR UBLUE STEEEEEELU UR Storm U Turbo Turns
What does it replace? What does playing 1-2 copies of "UUU, get Lotus Bloom" add to this deck?
It adds redundancy, which is important. I doubt I'd want to play more than 1 - 2 copies, but it gets very exciting once you start considering what other SB cards it can be used to fetch to protect the combo or force it through.
Whir is too expensive to build toolbox around it in sideboard. And searching Bloom on end of turn 3 is nice but in my opinion too cute - you need to have 3 blue mana open (which can be hard with plains and dreadship main, also temples don't play well with it) and you don't want to play Phyrexian Unlife. If you want additional ramp play Coalition Relic
Fatal Push could become a staple in Modern, but in Legacy for sure. This is the best removal since Abrupt Decay (it doesn't compare, but has some raw power for us running black). This could deal with Infect, but again, with other problematic matchups. Infect has lots of ways of being countered and I feel this has been covered for years now (it's all over the thread). Maybe 2 in the side could do the work, but Spellskite is still the best all-around card you want in the sideboard for aggro matchups and Infect particularly.
Whir is too expensive to build toolbox around it in sideboard. And searching Bloom on end of turn 3 is nice but in my opinion too cute - you need to have 3 blue mana open (which can be hard with plains and dreadship main, also temples don't play well with it) and you don't want to play Phyrexian Unlife. If you want additional ramp play Coalition Relic
Thats why you'd only want it as a 1 or 2-off, I only run one non blue land.
I'd probably never consider coalition relic, I don't want extra ramp I just want a way of instantly chucking bloom out after they've tapped out etc as some people will counter your bloom coming off suspend etc etc...
It's a little situational so maybe whir won't see play but its the only new card I can consider in Ad Nauseam, I still prefer slaughter pact over the new removal in here
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When the task spilled over into undeath, he stopped calling it his life's work.
Decks
Standard: GBGB EnergyGB GRGR EnergyGR
Modern: RBUWAd NauseamRBUW GRGR TitanshiftGR UBLUE STEEEEEELU UR Storm U Turbo Turns
Thoughts on Fatal Push as a replacement for our fog effects? Seems very strong against infect and death aggro variants. The only problem I have with it is the fact that it could potentially push infect out of the meta, which mean that we may need to bring in tools that are better against Jund instead. Maybe grave titan will be better if midrange becomes more popular.
Thoughts on Fatal Push as a replacement for our fog effects? Seems very strong against infect and death aggro variants. The only problem I have with it is the fact that it could potentially push infect out of the meta, which mean that we may need to bring in tools that are better against Jund instead. Maybe grave titan will be better if midrange becomes more popular.
The fog effects are much better at buying time than Fatal Push IMHO. If Dredge gets banned then Push is likely a better option, but as the meta stands right now blanking the opponent's board for a turn is better than one-mana spot removal. It's worth noting that Push is worse here than in most decks since we don't generally play fetchlands.
Fatal Push could become a staple in Modern, but in Legacy for sure. This is the best removal since Abrupt Decay (it doesn't compare, but has some raw power for us running black). This could deal with Infect, but again, with other problematic matchups. Infect has lots of ways of being countered and I feel this has been covered for years now (it's all over the thread). Maybe 2 in the side could do the work, but Spellskite is still the best all-around card you want in the sideboard for aggro matchups and Infect particularly.
Cheers!
If the format slows down because of a great new removal spell--presumably infect's good match ups flourish and we can shift our build for a slower meta...pretty ideal if you ask me for a list like yours over the spoils builds.
I think Fatal push basically already is a staple, but I'm more excited about secret salvage at this point.
Fatal push is excellent for ad nauseam. I'm going to run zero of them but all the other decks packing it will reduce infect's share of the meta. I think fogs are just better for us because they are more versatile but push will get played in a lot of other decks. I think I'll be shelving my spoils of the vault as well. If the meta slows mystical teachings is where it's at. I'm going to need to get used to playing that version again. While the basic strategy remains the same, many of the intricacies are different.
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Modern: UBWAd NauseamWBU URStormRU
EDH: BMikaeus the UnhallowedB RWAurelia, the WarleaderWR
I think I'll be shelving my spoils of the vault as well. If the meta slows mystical teachings is where it's at. I'm going to need to get used to playing that version again. While the basic strategy remains the same, many of the intricacies are different.
If Fatal Push truly is the hero Modern needs to slow the meta down, I'm going back to the Glittering Wish version of Ad Nauseam. The deck has always been solid, with more consistency and Game 1 interaction than the standard versions, but just about a half a turn slower. If Modern becomes a true turn 4 format, I think that version of the deck has a chance to shine.
Fatal push is excellent for ad nauseam. I'm going to run zero of them but all the other decks packing it will reduce infect's share of the meta. I think fogs are just better for us because they are more versatile but push will get played in a lot of other decks. I think I'll be shelving my spoils of the vault as well. If the meta slows mystical teachings is where it's at. I'm going to need to get used to playing that version again. While the basic strategy remains the same, many of the intricacies are different.
There is more of a trade off. Infect will become worse, but black will become a much more common color, meaning discard effects will also be more common. We will need to start boarding against BGx midrange more and other decks with discard effects with more than just Leylines. Which raises the question, which BGx answer is overall better, Grave Titan, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, or another card I haven't mentioned?
Fatal Push could become a staple in Modern, but in Legacy for sure. This is the best removal since Abrupt Decay (it doesn't compare, but has some raw power for us running black). This could deal with Infect, but again, with other problematic matchups. Infect has lots of ways of being countered and I feel this has been covered for years now (it's all over the thread). Maybe 2 in the side could do the work, but Spellskite is still the best all-around card you want in the sideboard for aggro matchups and Infect particularly.
Cheers!
If the format slows down because of a great new removal spell--presumably infect's good match ups flourish and we can shift our build for a slower meta...pretty ideal if you ask me for a list like yours over the spoils builds.
I think Fatal push basically already is a staple, but I'm more excited about secret salvage at this point.
I just feel that Mystical Teachings is as fast as Spoils, maybe half a turn slower, but with Infect / Suicide Zoo being at the edge with Fatal Push, definitely a classic list will be the way to go : Modern being a true turn 4 format, it'll be easier to fetch for what's really needed in the deck and I can definitely see a major impact on the builds.
We'll see BG/x being more of a thing again, meaning tech lands such as Oboro and Mikokoro will be needed (even Nephalia Academy). In the sideboard, 4 Leyline, 2 Thoughtseize, Celestial Purge and even Pure Intentions will be needed. I think discard and BG/x can be won with the correct Tools and a classic build with Peer / Teachings has all that. The matchup comes close to 45/55 after game 1, so it's much better than Infect which is like 10/90 all the time...
For the longest time (I've changed it up), I had a mystical in my flex slot over the 21st land or 4th unlife--otherwise just running a stock spoils list with a conflagrate over lab man. I think mystical is super good and its stock goes up a lot against BGx which I expect to be pretty prominent. I've totally debated running two in the past. I've still rarely ever been happy with a peer--but I leave that card to say 'to each their own'.
I think typically both lists are as fast as each other--we spend a lot of time as a community of pilots on this deck talking about spoils and stuff, I don't really cast them all that often. So speed differences are really only relevant in the games where you need the mystical/spoils...ultimately the difference is negligible to me, I like the relability of one, the speed and ability to hold up extra angel's graces from the other, and the alt combo potential of spoils. I think the best list is probably somewhere in between....now that I've talked this out, I'm going to cut a spoils for a mystical and keep rocking 4 unlifes (they work well together--I didn't like needing to have 6 mana in sideboard games where it matters to have a darkness AND mystical--though spoils/darkness is quite easy).
Over the last couple of weeks, I've quietly gone 9 and 2 with one split in a finals, mostly stock but I'm really happy with my sideboard--I'll post it later.
What does it replace? What does playing 1-2 copies of "UUU, get Lotus Bloom" add to this deck?
It adds redundancy, which is important. I doubt I'd want to play more than 1 - 2 copies, but it gets very exciting once you start considering what other SB cards it can be used to fetch to protect the combo or force it through.
Depending on your meta, it may or may not be significant, but it pushes Lotus Bloom onto the battlefield through a Chalice on 0. There are a decent number of players on Eldrazi in my area, and sometimes being able to jam that much mana into play might give you the window you need to steal a win. Whether it's better than other answers in that matchup, I'm not sure. I disagree with those who SB Leyline for the 4 TKS, as that seems to be a downgrade overall. Worth investigating I would think.
If the format slows down because of a great new removal spell--presumably infect's good match ups flourish and we can shift our build for a slower meta...pretty ideal if you ask me for a list like yours over the spoils builds.
I think Fatal push basically already is a staple, but I'm more excited about secret salvage at this point.
I'm not sure less infect would push me towards the fetch build again, but I could be very wrong about that, many of you here have more experience with the deck than I do. I love Spoils, the number of dirty crazy bs wins you can pull out of nowhere with that card is just incredible. That said, I'm totally biased towards intricate combos.
Where would you like to see Secret Salvage used? SB Games vs Jund? Seems interesting, though it is very expensive, AND a Sorcery.
So the deck is as spicy as it can get and I changed my regular list a bit to surprise people for a large tournament (they know me and pretty much the 75 I run):
Report:
- RD 1, 2-1 against Jund on the play. Tech lands were great, Oboro, Palace in the Clouds and Mikokoro, Center of the Sea made a difference against Liliana of the Veil. It gave me 2 turns on game 1 to win it. Thoughtseize helped a lot in game 3 to take IoK.
- RD 2, 2-0 against Hatebears on the play.Mystical Teachings helped me with Ad Nauseam for value. Slaughter Pact was huge.
- RD 3, 2-1 against Burn on the draw. Here, Snapcaster Mage helped me post-board to flashback Angel's Grace. I used Drown in Sorrow to wrath the board and clear Nacatl and Guide of the way.
- RD 4, 1-2 against Affinity on the play. Not much to say, usual game 1 with Nexus on his side, so I lost that. Post-board, it got better, but Cranial Plating and Nexus is pretty much GG...
- RD 5, 2-0 against UWR Control on the draw. Tolaria West fetching for Creeping Tar Pit and using it for beatdown was awesome. Mystical Teachings was great and Boseiju, Who Shelters All also.
- RD 6, 2-1 against Scapeshift on the draw. Easy matchup, combo on turn 4-5.
- RD 7, 2-0 against RG Tron. Easy.
Quarters :2-1 against Grixis Control on the play. This was a rough game 1, Tasigur got to me hard and I couldn't face up the counterspells. Game 2, I used Snapcaster Mage to flashback Ad Nauseam for value to find tools I needed for the long run : Tolaria West fetching for Boseiju, Who Shelters All notably. Game 3, I used Creeping Tar Pit to block and Mystical Teachings with its flashback to find both pices of the combo!
Semis:2-0 against Abzan. I had the combo naturally on game 1. I used Supreme Verdict to wrath the board and win on game 2.
Finals:Split against Dredge.
Creeping Tar Pit and Snapcaster Mage are very good cards. They were great when they showed up. The list looks really like an old one, just like the ones Rubin Snijdewind and Jared Boettcher ran back in the days lol.
How good is the tarpit over for example a temple scry? How essential was it to use?
Same with Snappy, how good was he over Silence (a card I love)
How did the other 3 cards that you put in, did they perform at all?
My odd change recently has been a one off slaughter games in the sideboard (can't remember what I replaced) for the mirror match and other combo decks etc
Private Mod Note
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When the task spilled over into undeath, he stopped calling it his life's work.
Decks
Standard: GBGB EnergyGB GRGR EnergyGR
Modern: RBUWAd NauseamRBUW GRGR TitanshiftGR UBLUE STEEEEEELU UR Storm U Turbo Turns
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And have you never lost a game because you didn't have a bloom in your starting hand?
To be able to not have bloom in your starting hand but instant speed it out at the end of their turn 3 seems good imo.
The fact that it's instant speed is why it's worth considering.
Decks
Standard:
GBGB EnergyGB
GRGR EnergyGR
Modern:
RBUWAd NauseamRBUW
GRGR TitanshiftGR
UBLUE STEEEEEELU
UR StormU Turbo TurnsFatal Push is super fantastic removal for any format it's so good!
Decks
Standard:
GBGB EnergyGB
GRGR EnergyGR
Modern:
RBUWAd NauseamRBUW
GRGR TitanshiftGR
UBLUE STEEEEEELU
UR StormU Turbo TurnsIt adds redundancy, which is important. I doubt I'd want to play more than 1 - 2 copies, but it gets very exciting once you start considering what other SB cards it can be used to fetch to protect the combo or force it through.
Cheers!
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
Thats why you'd only want it as a 1 or 2-off, I only run one non blue land.
I'd probably never consider coalition relic, I don't want extra ramp I just want a way of instantly chucking bloom out after they've tapped out etc as some people will counter your bloom coming off suspend etc etc...
It's a little situational so maybe whir won't see play but its the only new card I can consider in Ad Nauseam, I still prefer slaughter pact over the new removal in here
Decks
Standard:
GBGB EnergyGB
GRGR EnergyGR
Modern:
RBUWAd NauseamRBUW
GRGR TitanshiftGR
UBLUE STEEEEEELU
UR StormU Turbo TurnsThe fog effects are much better at buying time than Fatal Push IMHO. If Dredge gets banned then Push is likely a better option, but as the meta stands right now blanking the opponent's board for a turn is better than one-mana spot removal. It's worth noting that Push is worse here than in most decks since we don't generally play fetchlands.
If the format slows down because of a great new removal spell--presumably infect's good match ups flourish and we can shift our build for a slower meta...pretty ideal if you ask me for a list like yours over the spoils builds.
I think Fatal push basically already is a staple, but I'm more excited about secret salvage at this point.
UBWAd NauseamWBU
URStormRU
EDH:
BMikaeus the UnhallowedB
RWAurelia, the WarleaderWR
If Fatal Push truly is the hero Modern needs to slow the meta down, I'm going back to the Glittering Wish version of Ad Nauseam. The deck has always been solid, with more consistency and Game 1 interaction than the standard versions, but just about a half a turn slower. If Modern becomes a true turn 4 format, I think that version of the deck has a chance to shine.
There is more of a trade off. Infect will become worse, but black will become a much more common color, meaning discard effects will also be more common. We will need to start boarding against BGx midrange more and other decks with discard effects with more than just Leylines. Which raises the question, which BGx answer is overall better, Grave Titan, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, or another card I haven't mentioned?
I just feel that Mystical Teachings is as fast as Spoils, maybe half a turn slower, but with Infect / Suicide Zoo being at the edge with Fatal Push, definitely a classic list will be the way to go : Modern being a true turn 4 format, it'll be easier to fetch for what's really needed in the deck and I can definitely see a major impact on the builds.
We'll see BG/x being more of a thing again, meaning tech lands such as Oboro and Mikokoro will be needed (even Nephalia Academy). In the sideboard, 4 Leyline, 2 Thoughtseize, Celestial Purge and even Pure Intentions will be needed. I think discard and BG/x can be won with the correct Tools and a classic build with Peer / Teachings has all that. The matchup comes close to 45/55 after game 1, so it's much better than Infect which is like 10/90 all the time...
Cheers!
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
I think typically both lists are as fast as each other--we spend a lot of time as a community of pilots on this deck talking about spoils and stuff, I don't really cast them all that often. So speed differences are really only relevant in the games where you need the mystical/spoils...ultimately the difference is negligible to me, I like the relability of one, the speed and ability to hold up extra angel's graces from the other, and the alt combo potential of spoils. I think the best list is probably somewhere in between....now that I've talked this out, I'm going to cut a spoils for a mystical and keep rocking 4 unlifes (they work well together--I didn't like needing to have 6 mana in sideboard games where it matters to have a darkness AND mystical--though spoils/darkness is quite easy).
Over the last couple of weeks, I've quietly gone 9 and 2 with one split in a finals, mostly stock but I'm really happy with my sideboard--I'll post it later.
Depending on your meta, it may or may not be significant, but it pushes Lotus Bloom onto the battlefield through a Chalice on 0. There are a decent number of players on Eldrazi in my area, and sometimes being able to jam that much mana into play might give you the window you need to steal a win. Whether it's better than other answers in that matchup, I'm not sure. I disagree with those who SB Leyline for the 4 TKS, as that seems to be a downgrade overall. Worth investigating I would think.
I'm not sure less infect would push me towards the fetch build again, but I could be very wrong about that, many of you here have more experience with the deck than I do. I love Spoils, the number of dirty crazy bs wins you can pull out of nowhere with that card is just incredible. That said, I'm totally biased towards intricate combos.
Where would you like to see Secret Salvage used? SB Games vs Jund? Seems interesting, though it is very expensive, AND a Sorcery.
Mainboard:
+1 Creeping Tar Pit for -1 Island.
+1 Desperate Ritual for -1 Simian Spirit Guide
Sideboard
+1 Snapcaster Mage for -1 Silence
+1 Drown in Sorrow for -1 Ethereal Haze
+1 Path to Exile for -1 Patrician's Scorn
So the deck is as spicy as it can get and I changed my regular list a bit to surprise people for a large tournament (they know me and pretty much the 75 I run):
3 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Laboratory Maniac
Lands (20)
2 Flooded Strand
2 City of Brass
2 Polluted Delta
2 Temple of Deceit
2 Temple of Enlightenment
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Island
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Plains
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Swamp
1 Tolaria West
1 Watery Grave
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Angel's Grace
4 Lotus Bloom
4 Pentad Prism
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
3 Pact of Negation
3 Phyrexian Unlife
2 Peer Through Depths
1 Desperate Ritual
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Lightning Storm
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Darkness
2 Thoughtseize
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Drown in Sorrow
1 Echoing Truth
1 Path to Exile
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Supreme Verdict
Report:
- RD 1, 2-1 against Jund on the play. Tech lands were great, Oboro, Palace in the Clouds and Mikokoro, Center of the Sea made a difference against Liliana of the Veil. It gave me 2 turns on game 1 to win it. Thoughtseize helped a lot in game 3 to take IoK.
- RD 2, 2-0 against Hatebears on the play. Mystical Teachings helped me with Ad Nauseam for value. Slaughter Pact was huge.
- RD 3, 2-1 against Burn on the draw. Here, Snapcaster Mage helped me post-board to flashback Angel's Grace. I used Drown in Sorrow to wrath the board and clear Nacatl and Guide of the way.
- RD 4, 1-2 against Affinity on the play. Not much to say, usual game 1 with Nexus on his side, so I lost that. Post-board, it got better, but Cranial Plating and Nexus is pretty much GG...
- RD 5, 2-0 against UWR Control on the draw. Tolaria West fetching for Creeping Tar Pit and using it for beatdown was awesome. Mystical Teachings was great and Boseiju, Who Shelters All also.
- RD 6, 2-1 against Scapeshift on the draw. Easy matchup, combo on turn 4-5.
- RD 7, 2-0 against RG Tron. Easy.
Quarters : 2-1 against Grixis Control on the play. This was a rough game 1, Tasigur got to me hard and I couldn't face up the counterspells. Game 2, I used Snapcaster Mage to flashback Ad Nauseam for value to find tools I needed for the long run : Tolaria West fetching for Boseiju, Who Shelters All notably. Game 3, I used Creeping Tar Pit to block and Mystical Teachings with its flashback to find both pices of the combo!
Semis: 2-0 against Abzan. I had the combo naturally on game 1. I used Supreme Verdict to wrath the board and win on game 2.
Finals: Split against Dredge.
Creeping Tar Pit and Snapcaster Mage are very good cards. They were great when they showed up. The list looks really like an old one, just like the ones Rubin Snijdewind and Jared Boettcher ran back in the days lol.
Cheers!
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
Same with Snappy, how good was he over Silence (a card I love)
How did the other 3 cards that you put in, did they perform at all?
My odd change recently has been a one off slaughter games in the sideboard (can't remember what I replaced) for the mirror match and other combo decks etc
Decks
Standard:
GBGB EnergyGB
GRGR EnergyGR
Modern:
RBUWAd NauseamRBUW
GRGR TitanshiftGR
UBLUE STEEEEEELU
UR StormU Turbo Turns