I usually have the desire to have a 5th red mana effect after a night of casting bad spoils--but inevitably it always gets cut.
Since adding the 4th unlife and no longer cutting it week to week, the desire for the fifth ritual effect has gone away--since if you get to unlife, its kind of like ramping yourself a mana in the combo turn.
Played yesterday with the deck and had some fun interactions I want to share. Went 4-0 against Livind End, Affinity, Scapeshift and Griselbrand :
- I had Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir in play against Living End and guess what? No more cascade triggers. It pretty much is the only card I can think of that stops that, so on turn 4, I was pretty happy to see it coming!
- I saw Fateful Showdown being played and it was like a worse Lightning Storm, but a better Conflagrate. The guy was running 3 Simian Spirit Guide and 1 Desperate Ritual, so I was interested. It was his second win condition in a 3 Spoils of the Vault build.
- I also had a funny interaction with griselbrand where Ethereal Haze finally served something more than just Holy Day or Darkness : Borborygmos Enraged pitched me a bunch of cards, but with Haze, he pretty much scooped himself up
Question: if i play fateful showdown, with Unlife in play (after comboing) , is it a draw?
I mean, when the card finishes resolution, my opponent is dead with the damage from showdown, but im also trying to draw cards wiht an empty library, so im losing the game there.
It does more damage than lightning storm and can't get pithing needled--its instant speed over conflagrate (which does as much damage basically and isn't soft to surprise graveyard hate). \
It doesn't seem better game 1 than just a second lightning storm, it costs more, and it doesn't beat spellskite/kira at all like conflagrate can. Doesn't beat infinite life or leyline of sanctity--so it requires extra cards to do what you'd want it to over stuff that already gets played.
Lastly, might kill you with the wheel effect at the end. I just don't get it any which way--how many games are we really losing to pithing needle or not having enough lands in the deck that the card is worth playing?
104.3b If a player’s life total is 0 or less, he or she loses the game the next time a player would receive priority. (This is a state-based action. See rule 704.)
104.3c If a player is required to draw more cards than are left in his or her library, he or she draws the remaining cards, and then loses the game the next time a player would receive priority. (This is a state-based action. See rule 704.)
104.4a If all the players remaining in a game lose simultaneously, the game is a draw.
So both players lose and the game is a draw. In a sanctioned tournament the goal of a match is to be the first to 2 wins. This is usually a best of 3, but in the event that a game is a draw, both players start a new game and play games until a) one player has 2 wins or b) time limit is reached.
Each thing that each player would die from happen at the same time, so regardless of the order of what happens on the card, it's all checked at the same time.
I'm planning on attending a scg in Baltimore soon for a team legacy/modern/standard event. Been playing this deck for about 1 year now and feel like I have a good grasp on its intricacies. I'm expecting less linear aggro(DSZ, infect, dredge) and more jund , Eldrazi, tron, affinity, burn. Also not worried about as many bad matchups this event since I'm hoping my team will pull me through in those rounds. Decklist is pretty standard labman/spoils w/ 20 lands....
Need sideboard suggestions for this meta....Was thinking something like this...
I'm thinking of picking up the deck but am still deciding whether I want to run Spoils or not. Can someone break down the advantages and disadvantages as well as how to play it correctly? Or, if this has been discussed before, could you link me to it please? Thanks in advance.
I'm thinking of picking up the deck but am still deciding whether I want to run Spoils or not. Can someone break down the advantages and disadvantages as well as how to play it correctly? Or, if this has been discussed before, could you link me to it please? Thanks in advance.
I'm thinking of picking up the deck but am still deciding whether I want to run Spoils or not. Can someone break down the advantages and disadvantages as well as how to play it correctly? Or, if this has been discussed before, could you link me to it please? Thanks in advance.
Well I haven't built the deck yet so I can still make that choice. With the meta supposedly slowing down a bit, the more consistent but slower version doesn't sound like a bad choice, does it?
Each thing that each player would die from happen at the same time, so regardless of the order of what happens on the card, it's all checked at the same time.
Thats fair, thank you for clearing that up for me.
I still think the cards great, we don't need to draw out entire deck especially against a deck that uses shocks we could just draw 15 cards and discard our hand and draw 15-20 cards and not deck out but win.
Regarding infinite life from stuff like abzan company I always go the lab man route against them even if they don't have the combo on the board in case they respond by fetching the combo out so fateful showdown can't be ruled out over that as it also beats lightning storm as does leyline.
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When the task spilled over into undeath, he stopped calling it his life's work.
Decks
Standard: GBGB EnergyGB GRGR EnergyGR
Modern: RBUWAd NauseamRBUW GRGR TitanshiftGR UBLUE STEEEEEELU UR Storm U Turbo Turns
I'm thinking of picking up the deck but am still deciding whether I want to run Spoils or not. Can someone break down the advantages and disadvantages as well as how to play it correctly? Or, if this has been discussed before, could you link me to it please? Thanks in advance.
The bolded part is not correct. Spoils makes the deck faster and MORE consistent. You have an instant speed tutor for the piece of the combo you are missing. That's an increase in consistency as far as assembling the combo is concerned. However, it does add a level of variance to your match play because whenever you cast the card you have a slight percent chance of killing yourself (either through damage or exiling too many win cons) which while dangerous can be mitigated through better decision making.
Basically you need to know when to cast spoils and when not to, and if you are only casting spoils when you are dead on board anyway, then the times it kills you doesn't matter because you were already losing that game. The times it wins you the game when you were otherwise facing lethal is where it really shines, however, and is the reason we play the card. (It's not insignificant that the Spoils + Laboratory Maniac alternative win con exists for the times they remove Ad Nauseam. I have won this way before.)
More to the point, Fururikkeru, did you bother to read the primer? (It's the first post on this thread) It's one of the better primers on MTGSal (or in Magic, really) and includes a lengthy 11-paragraph discussion of Spoils of the Vault, its uses and its drawbacks, which will help you decide whether to play it or not.
It should be noted that the most successful tournament finishes with Ad Nauseam were with decks playing spoils.
I've read most of the primer but apparently missed that part. Thanks for the elaborate explanation, Spoils seems to be worth playing for the do-or-die situations, so I will go with that version.
Has everybody written off whir of invention? As in it's not even worth testing?
I've been playtesting this with friends and having quite a bit of success as opposed to the spoils version i was playing previously. Just wondering if I'm the only player in the world even trying out whir lol. There's nothing i hate more than turn 3+ drawing a bloom. It also gives you another hit for peer, and can be fetched with teachings if you need mana.
About how to play with Spoils of the Vault :
Here's my rational about Spoils of the Vault and the main arguments advocating for it: I'm with you all along I'd say, but there are couple of things that I find too risky. I found that Spoils of the Vault is a last resort card. If you have it in hand with Angel's Grace or either Phyrexian Unlife on the board, wait! It's the ultimate move when you're about to lose when you have 7 mana with Angel's Grace or 6 mana with Phyrexian Unlife. If the situation is under control, wait and keep sculpting your hand with the usual cantrips such as Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand to get to Ad Nauseam. It's really an Ad Nauseam no 5-7.
So the main argument to me is that taking out 4 Peer through Dephts/Anticipate for 1 Lightning Storm (running 2 in the mainboard as pointed out) and 3 Spoils of the Vault is worth it because Spoils of the Vault to me can be used in three situations:
1) As a last resort to assemble the combo : if you lose by exiling lands or Simian Spirit Guide (you can also wait to have 8 mana with Angel's Grace or 7 with Phyrexian Unlife and exiling one Simian Spirit Guide isn't a big deal) Remember, you would have lost anyway if you exile win conditions or lands. It works more often than the other way around.
2) In combination with a scry land to draw a card.
3) To win with Laboratory Maniac : if you draw during the game or have Laboratory Maniac in the starting hand, you may play it and try to protect it during your turn with a Pact of Negation. Then at the upkeep, cast Spoils of the Vault naming whatever card that is not in your deck. You will mill yourself. Then at the drawing step you win.
So:
- If you exile 2 Simian Spirit Guide, it could matter if you don't have mana left to cast the rest of the combo, but if you do have the mana, then it's no big deal.
- If you exile 1 Lightning Storm, you're all right. You exile 2 and your done. Remember, you would have lost anyway if you exile win conditions, lands or Simian Spirit Guides because it should be a last resort card!
For Peer/Teachings:
Manabase:
The manabase is out of this world! It is so elegant, yet so efficient. Aside the 4 temples that come into play tapped, the 16 other lands come into play untapped which is why you never get mana screwed. Also, velocity is the most important asset of this manabase : it is so fast with fetchlands, shocklands and legendary lands. Knowing that the meta is fast and aggro, I feel really good early game getting the mana I need and also late game especially because fastlands might be problematic in the long run when needing mana. Some of these lands are awesome:
1) Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth has amazing synergies with the 4 fetchlands (which can be tapped for black) as well as the 2 Gemstone Mine, which are now eternal (can be tapped for black without using a counter).
2) Mikokoro, Center of the Sea is a great drawing engine.
3) Gemstone Caverns gives you more velocity on the draw and that is quite useful.
4) Minamo, School at Water's Edge is great for corner cases : it can untap Mikokoro, Center of the Sea late game to draw cards, it can untap Gemstone Caverns on the draw for mana fixing and even Boseiju, Who Shelters All.
Maindeck:
Several things are really relevant here:
1) 2 Mystical Teachings is really safe. It's surprising that in a really aggro meta how this card be relevant : CMC is slow, but it helps you having hands without the combo pieces but lots of mana rocks or useful cards coming from the sideboard. I've been keeping different starting hands with both Mystical Teachings in the deck : it needs more mana and I've been mulliganing to keep hands that are fast to increase the velocity of this tutor.
2) 2 Anticipate help really against Chalice of the Void to ensure that we still have cantrips. Also, digging less than Peer Through Depths, it can grab you a land!
3) Slaughter Pact becomes more and more useful with the heavy creatures meta environment.
Sideboard:
The idea of the sideboard is to find the cards. You virtualy have 3 copies of each instant cards because Mystical Teachings can find them, which is an amazing thing. Redundancy is way better than it seems and the sideboard covers a large spectrum of matchups. Mortify is surprisingly good.
Which one you should choose :
About the Spoils of the Vault version, I think that running Spoils of the Vault is the way to go with this deck. It has yielded incredible results such as top 4 by Darien Elderfield at GP Charlotte in June. This is the best result for the deck so far.
However, a lot of players are still running a version without Spoils of the Vault and it has been powerful too. Just hink about top 8 by Derk Chad at SCG Premier IQ in Los Angeles (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/266614#paper) in February 2015 or 26th place by Garrak Matheson (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/315206#paper) at SCG Open Charlotte in September 2015. Even pre-Birthing Pod banning, Jarred Boettcher ended up 9th at Pro Tour Born of the Gods with Peer Through Depths as a cantrip in place of Spoils of the Vault. They were even running fetches, which is insane to me in a deck where you're digging for stuff (I just find that completely absurd), but hey, they topped so it must work.
So I'd say : play what you're comfortable with. I think that Spoils of the Vault gives more ways of winning and has more upsides than anything else, but you have to be confident about your 75. Spoils of the Vault is the second most difficult card to play in Modern (Gift Ungiven being the hardest one in my opinion), so either way, you'll have to practice a lot and know the deck inside out.
About how to play with Spoils of the Vault :
Even pre-Birthing Pod banning, Jarred Boettcher ended up 9th at Pro Tour Born of the Gods with Peer Through Depths as a cantrip in place of Spoils of the Vault. They were even running fetches, which is insane to me in a deck where you're digging for stuff (I just find that completely absurd), but hey, they topped so it must work.
Cheers!
Quick note about Jarred Boettcher. He was later banned for cheating so take that result with a grain of salt.
Tom makes a lot of important points. Spoils is an extremely powerful magic card, but you need to know your deck and the match up very well when utilizing it.
About the Spoils of the Vault version, I think that running Spoils of the Vault is the way to go with this deck. It has yielded incredible results such as top 4 by Darien Elderfield at GP Charlotte in June. This is the best result for the deck so far.
I think you're forgetting that Andreas Ganz won GP Charlotte (2400 people) in May 2016. He was running a very traditional 3-spoils, fetchless-temple build.
Elderfield's top 4 was in 2015.
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Since adding the 4th unlife and no longer cutting it week to week, the desire for the fifth ritual effect has gone away--since if you get to unlife, its kind of like ramping yourself a mana in the combo turn.
- I had Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir in play against Living End and guess what? No more cascade triggers. It pretty much is the only card I can think of that stops that, so on turn 4, I was pretty happy to see it coming!
- I saw Fateful Showdown being played and it was like a worse Lightning Storm, but a better Conflagrate. The guy was running 3 Simian Spirit Guide and 1 Desperate Ritual, so I was interested. It was his second win condition in a 3 Spoils of the Vault build.
- I also had a funny interaction with griselbrand where Ethereal Haze finally served something more than just Holy Day or Darkness : Borborygmos Enraged pitched me a bunch of cards, but with Haze, he pretty much scooped himself up
Cheers!
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
I mean, when the card finishes resolution, my opponent is dead with the damage from showdown, but im also trying to draw cards wiht an empty library, so im losing the game there.
It does more damage than lightning storm and can't get pithing needled--its instant speed over conflagrate (which does as much damage basically and isn't soft to surprise graveyard hate). \
It doesn't seem better game 1 than just a second lightning storm, it costs more, and it doesn't beat spellskite/kira at all like conflagrate can. Doesn't beat infinite life or leyline of sanctity--so it requires extra cards to do what you'd want it to over stuff that already gets played.
Lastly, might kill you with the wheel effect at the end. I just don't get it any which way--how many games are we really losing to pithing needle or not having enough lands in the deck that the card is worth playing?
104.3b If a player’s life total is 0 or less, he or she loses the game the next time a player would receive priority. (This is a state-based action. See rule 704.)
104.3c If a player is required to draw more cards than are left in his or her library, he or she draws the remaining cards, and then loses the game the next time a player would receive priority. (This is a state-based action. See rule 704.)
104.4a If all the players remaining in a game lose simultaneously, the game is a draw.
So both players lose and the game is a draw. In a sanctioned tournament the goal of a match is to be the first to 2 wins. This is usually a best of 3, but in the event that a game is a draw, both players start a new game and play games until a) one player has 2 wins or b) time limit is reached.
I gotta say...case closed.
Decks
Standard:
GBGB EnergyGB
GRGR EnergyGR
Modern:
RBUWAd NauseamRBUW
GRGR TitanshiftGR
UBLUE STEEEEEELU
UR StormU Turbo TurnsEach thing that each player would die from happen at the same time, so regardless of the order of what happens on the card, it's all checked at the same time.
I'm planning on attending a scg in Baltimore soon for a team legacy/modern/standard event. Been playing this deck for about 1 year now and feel like I have a good grasp on its intricacies. I'm expecting less linear aggro(DSZ, infect, dredge) and more jund , Eldrazi, tron, affinity, burn. Also not worried about as many bad matchups this event since I'm hoping my team will pull me through in those rounds. Decklist is pretty standard labman/spoils w/ 20 lands....
Need sideboard suggestions for this meta....Was thinking something like this...
4*leyline
3*fog
1*echoing truth
1*thoughtseize
1*wrath
1*pithing needle
1*spellskite
1*ghostly prison
2*grave titan
What's your manabase like? The fetchless manabase typically uses Spoils of the Vault, while a fetch-shock manabase plays Mystical Teachings and Peer Through Depths. Basically Spoils of the Vault makes the deck faster but less consistent.
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
Well I haven't built the deck yet so I can still make that choice. With the meta supposedly slowing down a bit, the more consistent but slower version doesn't sound like a bad choice, does it?
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
Thats fair, thank you for clearing that up for me.
I still think the cards great, we don't need to draw out entire deck especially against a deck that uses shocks we could just draw 15 cards and discard our hand and draw 15-20 cards and not deck out but win.
Regarding infinite life from stuff like abzan company I always go the lab man route against them even if they don't have the combo on the board in case they respond by fetching the combo out so fateful showdown can't be ruled out over that as it also beats lightning storm as does leyline.
Decks
Standard:
GBGB EnergyGB
GRGR EnergyGR
Modern:
RBUWAd NauseamRBUW
GRGR TitanshiftGR
UBLUE STEEEEEELU
UR StormU Turbo TurnsThe bolded part is not correct. Spoils makes the deck faster and MORE consistent. You have an instant speed tutor for the piece of the combo you are missing. That's an increase in consistency as far as assembling the combo is concerned. However, it does add a level of variance to your match play because whenever you cast the card you have a slight percent chance of killing yourself (either through damage or exiling too many win cons) which while dangerous can be mitigated through better decision making.
Basically you need to know when to cast spoils and when not to, and if you are only casting spoils when you are dead on board anyway, then the times it kills you doesn't matter because you were already losing that game. The times it wins you the game when you were otherwise facing lethal is where it really shines, however, and is the reason we play the card. (It's not insignificant that the Spoils + Laboratory Maniac alternative win con exists for the times they remove Ad Nauseam. I have won this way before.)
More to the point, Fururikkeru, did you bother to read the primer? (It's the first post on this thread) It's one of the better primers on MTGSal (or in Magic, really) and includes a lengthy 11-paragraph discussion of Spoils of the Vault, its uses and its drawbacks, which will help you decide whether to play it or not.
It should be noted that the most successful tournament finishes with Ad Nauseam were with decks playing spoils.
I've been playtesting this with friends and having quite a bit of success as opposed to the spoils version i was playing previously. Just wondering if I'm the only player in the world even trying out whir lol. There's nothing i hate more than turn 3+ drawing a bloom. It also gives you another hit for peer, and can be fetched with teachings if you need mana.
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Laboratory Maniac
Lands (20)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Seachrome Coast
2 Temple of Deceit
1 Temple of Enlightenment
2 Island
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Plains
1 Watery Grave
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Angel's Grace
2 Lotus Bloom
4 Pentad Prism
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
3 Pact of Negation
3 Phyrexian Unlife
2 Peer Through Depths
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Lightning Storm
4 Whir of Invention
Here's my rational about Spoils of the Vault and the main arguments advocating for it: I'm with you all along I'd say, but there are couple of things that I find too risky. I found that Spoils of the Vault is a last resort card. If you have it in hand with Angel's Grace or either Phyrexian Unlife on the board, wait! It's the ultimate move when you're about to lose when you have 7 mana with Angel's Grace or 6 mana with Phyrexian Unlife. If the situation is under control, wait and keep sculpting your hand with the usual cantrips such as Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand to get to Ad Nauseam. It's really an Ad Nauseam no 5-7.
So the main argument to me is that taking out 4 Peer through Dephts/Anticipate for 1 Lightning Storm (running 2 in the mainboard as pointed out) and 3 Spoils of the Vault is worth it because Spoils of the Vault to me can be used in three situations:
1) As a last resort to assemble the combo : if you lose by exiling lands or Simian Spirit Guide (you can also wait to have 8 mana with Angel's Grace or 7 with Phyrexian Unlife and exiling one Simian Spirit Guide isn't a big deal) Remember, you would have lost anyway if you exile win conditions or lands. It works more often than the other way around.
2) In combination with a scry land to draw a card.
3) To win with Laboratory Maniac : if you draw during the game or have Laboratory Maniac in the starting hand, you may play it and try to protect it during your turn with a Pact of Negation. Then at the upkeep, cast Spoils of the Vault naming whatever card that is not in your deck. You will mill yourself. Then at the drawing step you win.
So:
- If you exile 2 Simian Spirit Guide, it could matter if you don't have mana left to cast the rest of the combo, but if you do have the mana, then it's no big deal.
- If you exile 1 Lightning Storm, you're all right. You exile 2 and your done. Remember, you would have lost anyway if you exile win conditions, lands or Simian Spirit Guides because it should be a last resort card!
For Peer/Teachings:
Manabase:
The manabase is out of this world! It is so elegant, yet so efficient. Aside the 4 temples that come into play tapped, the 16 other lands come into play untapped which is why you never get mana screwed. Also, velocity is the most important asset of this manabase : it is so fast with fetchlands, shocklands and legendary lands. Knowing that the meta is fast and aggro, I feel really good early game getting the mana I need and also late game especially because fastlands might be problematic in the long run when needing mana. Some of these lands are awesome:
1) Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth has amazing synergies with the 4 fetchlands (which can be tapped for black) as well as the 2 Gemstone Mine, which are now eternal (can be tapped for black without using a counter).
2) Mikokoro, Center of the Sea is a great drawing engine.
3) Gemstone Caverns gives you more velocity on the draw and that is quite useful.
4) Minamo, School at Water's Edge is great for corner cases : it can untap Mikokoro, Center of the Sea late game to draw cards, it can untap Gemstone Caverns on the draw for mana fixing and even Boseiju, Who Shelters All.
Maindeck:
Several things are really relevant here:
1) 2 Mystical Teachings is really safe. It's surprising that in a really aggro meta how this card be relevant : CMC is slow, but it helps you having hands without the combo pieces but lots of mana rocks or useful cards coming from the sideboard. I've been keeping different starting hands with both Mystical Teachings in the deck : it needs more mana and I've been mulliganing to keep hands that are fast to increase the velocity of this tutor.
2) 2 Anticipate help really against Chalice of the Void to ensure that we still have cantrips. Also, digging less than Peer Through Depths, it can grab you a land!
3) Slaughter Pact becomes more and more useful with the heavy creatures meta environment.
Sideboard:
The idea of the sideboard is to find the cards. You virtualy have 3 copies of each instant cards because Mystical Teachings can find them, which is an amazing thing. Redundancy is way better than it seems and the sideboard covers a large spectrum of matchups. Mortify is surprisingly good.
Which one you should choose :
About the Spoils of the Vault version, I think that running Spoils of the Vault is the way to go with this deck. It has yielded incredible results such as top 4 by Darien Elderfield at GP Charlotte in June. This is the best result for the deck so far.
However, a lot of players are still running a version without Spoils of the Vault and it has been powerful too. Just hink about top 8 by Derk Chad at SCG Premier IQ in Los Angeles (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/266614#paper) in February 2015 or 26th place by Garrak Matheson (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/315206#paper) at SCG Open Charlotte in September 2015. Even pre-Birthing Pod banning, Jarred Boettcher ended up 9th at Pro Tour Born of the Gods with Peer Through Depths as a cantrip in place of Spoils of the Vault. They were even running fetches, which is insane to me in a deck where you're digging for stuff (I just find that completely absurd), but hey, they topped so it must work.
So I'd say : play what you're comfortable with. I think that Spoils of the Vault gives more ways of winning and has more upsides than anything else, but you have to be confident about your 75. Spoils of the Vault is the second most difficult card to play in Modern (Gift Ungiven being the hardest one in my opinion), so either way, you'll have to practice a lot and know the deck inside out.
Cheers!
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
Quick note about Jarred Boettcher. He was later banned for cheating so take that result with a grain of salt.
I think you're forgetting that Andreas Ganz won GP Charlotte (2400 people) in May 2016. He was running a very traditional 3-spoils, fetchless-temple build.
Elderfield's top 4 was in 2015.