I think you're right about the stock spoils list being faster. I am interested in trying out a BtL list, though, but maybe with just 3 BtL in the main. I'm not sure if I can get behind running a full playset of Glittering Wish alongside it. When I used to run Wish Nauseam, we did it with Glittering Wish main and a single BtL in the board to grab with Wish as needed.
I’m new to the thread, but have been playing Ad Nauseam for a while now. At first, I loved the deck for the flavor and the complicated nature of the combo. Something about going into negative life totals and still winning is right up my alley. Then, I kept getting crushed with the deck. I mean, simple green Stompy decks without much more tech than a Rancor or two would be beating me down and I just sat there and did nothing. So, I was discouraged. Then, I see that it wins a major event (or comes in 2nd), and my faith is renewed! Then I take it out and get smashed… So, I took it as a personal challenge to learn and become proficient at piloting this deck… I’m making headway, having a 4-0 day last Wednesday at my LGS (no cut to top 8 due to small amount of players), and my first win was 2-0 vs Infect!
The reason I brought all that up, was because I noticed that this deck (much like Storm), is more about the pilot of the deck, rather than the deck itself. Anyone can pick it up and understand how the combo works, but it takes someone who intimately knows the deck to take it to the top of a main event. That’s why I joined the thread here. I want to know and be better with the intricate workings of the deck. Some of the technical details that aren’t obvious to newer pilots of the deck
Like making sure you know how many SSGs are in your graveyard before comboing off!! I was playing an Eggs (ya I know… Eggs…) player and he was about to combo, and started by activating his Codex Shredder, in response, I Ad Nauseamed for value (had something like 2 cards in hand after a double mulligan), and drew something like 10-15 cards… The spell resolved and I had everything I needed to combo off EOT or Upkeep, but the Codex milled over my 2nd SSG and I didn’t realize there was 1 in the yard already. Point is, I had just enough mana to cast Angel’s Grace & Ad Nauseam (played my 5th land w/ a Prism with 1 counter), and realized I didn’t have the mana to cast Lab Man, and not enough SSGs left to Lightning Storm…
Once I started testing a lot, I started with 1 Mystical Teachings and 2 Peer Through Depths in lieu of 3 Spoils of the Vault. It worked well, but peer was an okay dig spell, but just not as versatile as Spoils. You can’t hit lands, Unlife, SSG, or anything other than Grace, AN, Pact or more dig spells… I DID like Teachings because a turn 3-4 Teachings getting that Angel’s Grace at EOT or Ad Nauseam, or a Pact is great. No BS. Just go get what you want! Problem was that 4cc… Sometimes you needed to play the tutor mid steps and you just don’t have the mana for it… So, I played with 2 Spoils / 1 Teachings for quite a while now, and finally am on the 3 spoils gameplan.
It wasn’t until I started watching the new YouTube channel that I got to SEE some plays with Spoils to see its value. Naming the card scryed to the top with Serum Visions or a Temple is a great use of the card, for example. Why not use it as a quick cantrip, especially if you have multiples in hand. Pay B and draw a card at instant speed. Not bad. Didn’t realize interactions like these (or I did, but never utilized them until now), which is the technical know-how I’m talking about.
As for lands, I’m still messing with the numbers, but these have been working well for me. I like the 21 land version, over the 20 land / 1 Slaughter Pact plan because that 1 extra land is very easily swapped out for a SB card in Game 2, and the extra kill spell in Pact is never really missed by me for game 1.
Some thoughts on lands:
Tolaria West – The tutoring is nice, but goes against the “I don’t need to shuffle so all my stuff bottomed will stay there,” plan, but when you side in the Slaughter Pact, Pact of Negation or Boseiju, it’s nice to be able to get them when you need them. I am thinking about cutting it for another basic or utility land. There are a lot of games when it’s just an annoying ETB tapped land.
3 City of Brass / 2 Gemstone Mine – Not sure if this is best, or flip it and go 2 City /3 Mine. Same goes with eliminating one or the other entirely. I’m still messing with the numbers on these two.
Dreadship Reef – Didn’t like it in the beginning, like it more now. Worst case, it’s a land that adds 1. Best case, you don’t have a ramp spell (Bloom / Prism), but you’ve got the combo in hand… instead of praying for a Prism off the top, you can at least store the counters for when you can combo… it’s more proactive than a basic.
Sideboard Logic :
These are basically staying where they’re at. The only one I may change is Darkness -> Ethereal Haze or another anti Aggro card. For right now, they’re fine at 3. The rest most ppl run and are self-explanatory.
1 Echoing Truth - *WILDCARD* Catch all for any permanent blocking the combo
4 Leyline of Sanctity - Discard / Burn / Targeted Combo decks
1 Slaughter Pact - Any aggro matchup / specific non-blackcreature disrupting the combo
3 Darkness - Any aggro matchup
1 Pact of Negation - Control / Combo decks
2 Thoughtseize - Control / Combo decks
These are the ones I’m debating leaving in or changing:
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All - Counter based control / combo decks
1 Gigadrowse - Counter based control / combo decks
1 Patrician’s Scorn - Enchantments (Blood Moon, Bogles decks, Leyline of
Boseiju, Who Shelters All – I’ve played too many counter based decks with Ghost Quarter / Tectonic Edge in the main. It is a HUGE waste of time pulling strings to get a land that ETB tapped, just to make 1 of the spells uncounterable. I’d rather have another Pact over a Boseiju.
Gigadrowse – Also against counter heavy decks. Can be used vs aggro as a pseudo-Fog effect, but seems VERY situational. Seems like a better card should be here.
Patrician’s Scorn – This is a useful card against Blood Moon, Leylines and Bogles; but I feel like each can be taken care of without wasting a SB space. I’ve gotten out of Blood Moons before with Blooms and Prisms. Leylines are fine and Echoing Truth takes care of them just as well as Scorn… More useful than Scorn as well. As for Bogles, I don’t care about a tier 3-4 deck that can be won / lost as easy as any aggro matchup. I’m thinking this is another wasted spot.
Wonder if this would be a better Infect matchup than just running Darkness and Slaughter Pact. Still debating.
So, if anyone has a good article, video (I’m already watching the new series put on YouTube by one of your subscribers and it’s helping a ton), or source that focuses on PILOTING the deck, or the intimate aspects of playing the deck; that’d be great!
As for our current discussion: I’ve played with Bring to Light in a 5-color Gifts deck, and it worked well as a Gifts Ungiven 5-7, or as a silver bullet like playing it for Sigarda, Host of Herons or Damnation. In this type of deck, I am not sure it translates as well as with Gifts decks / Scapeshift decks. Seems like faster dig spells (Sleight of Hand / Serum Visions) and Spoils / Teachings is just a better (less mana intensive) way our deck can dig for the combo. Other than a 40-something-ith place finish, has anyone else tested this version? I like the idea of it, but not sure it’s fast enough…
As for Crovax in the SB… Is it JUST for the Infect matchup? Or against any / all aggro decks? If so, isn’t the 6cc just too high to be effective? Seems like you wouldn’t be able to get it out fast enough to do much… Heck, I’m worried about dying before a Bloom resolves let alone have 4WW mana that fast… Like, I’ve been researching Infect tech, and cards like Night of Souls’ Betrayal costs 2 less and is hard to get rid of (without a Nature’s Claim), and I know that Crovax can be saved via losing 2 life but recasting seems near impossible before you’re dead to poison. Please let me know if it’s working, and if it’s used in the way I think it is…
So, I’m determined to become a great Ad Nauseam player. Playing the deck is an art, and I love decks like that. Where, instead of wielding a club or sword and smashing or slashing your way to a victory; you have that crazy Whip Sword from India. The one where you can literally cut your own head off by using it… But watching that warrior wield that weapon makes you really stop and appreciate the skill and art of a weapon like that… The deck needs more finesse than most to play, and I want to master it. Please help where you can guys!
-Yawg
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From void evolved Phyrexia. Great Yawgmoth, Father of Machines, saw its perfection. Thus The Grand Evolution began. — Phyrexian Scriptures
Crovax is strictly for Infect. They are just dead if it resolves. Night of Soul's Betrayal can be destroyed by Nature's Claim which they are likely to bring in to destroy Prisms/Blooms/Unlife/Spellskites.
A lot of talk about SSG being banned. How hurtful would this be for our deck?
It would basically destroy it.
Considering the long list of cards that could be ripe for banning, though, I wouldn't worry that much about it. No decks running SSG are oppressive right now, and it's a better bet that WotC does nothing in January than actually addresses the Modern banliat.
I agree with JoJa. It would destroy the deck. It seems a bit unlikely though seeing as how Dredge and Infect are the big offenders in Modern. That didn't stop them from killing Seething Song though so who knows.
Crovax is strictly for Infect. They are just dead if it resolves. Night of Soul's Betrayal can be destroyed by Nature's Claim which they are likely to bring in to destroy Prisms/Blooms/Unlife/Spellskites.
Oh, I agree with you. The only card that will kill it is dismember, and even then, you can pay 2 life and return it. I guess I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the 4WW cost... if you get to 6 mana, you can just combo and win. The prob with this matchup is how fast the opponent can kill u. So, when I compare the two hate cards, NoSB can be cast turn 2 (2black and 2 SSG) and more reliably on turn 3 (3 land and SSG/Prism); Crovax can be played roughly around turn 4... so I guess I'm asking "is the extra 2 mana worth a better hate card?"
If the answer to all of this is Yes, how many would be recommended for a standard, NON-BTL build? 1, 2, or 3?
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From void evolved Phyrexia. Great Yawgmoth, Father of Machines, saw its perfection. Thus The Grand Evolution began. — Phyrexian Scriptures
A lot of talk about SSG being banned. How hurtful would this be for our deck?
Sinec WotC announced that Modern is not a Pro Tour format anymore we can assume that bans will only happen when absolutely necessary. My view on that matter is that SSG is not a necessary ban as no decks pklaying SSG are crushing the modern meta (far from that actually, I believe no SSG in Tier 1 decks). However I think the talks around banning SSG are legitimate since the card allow "unfair" gameplans and increase the variance in the deck. In a nutshell and to caricature a lot: a deck relying on SSG will either do nothing or do something absolutely unfair very quickly. Even though these types of decks are not oppressive it is not a good enough reason to let them be without questioning.
The fact that is some decks can cast a blood moon turn 1 or chalice with one counter turn 1. Even though they are not oppressive, I believe this is relevant to ask the question whether this is something good to have in the diversity of our format. And I would not be surprised to see SSG gone
@Deeprod Thanks for putting out regular Ad Nauseam content. I really appreciate being able to watch game play of the deck! In your latest video, I wanted to start a conversation on scry lands and Thoughtseize. This is something I remember being discussed back in Theros block.
You had a Thoughtseize and Temple of Enlightenment in hand. You can either scry first to set up your next turn and then Thoughtseize away whatever you are weak to, or you can Thoughtseize first and then scry for what you can't answer. In this situation, you knew you were looking for land, so it probably wasn't as critical, but I can imagine many instances where you may want perfect information before you scry.
I have no criticism of this particular play, I just wanted to start some discussion.
In your latest video, I wanted to start a conversation on scry lands and Thoughtseize. This is something I remember being discussed back in Theros block.
You had a Thoughtseize and Temple of Enlightenment in hand. You can either scry first to set up your next turn and then Thoughtseize away whatever you are weak to, or you can Thoughtseize first and then scry for what you can't answer. In this situation, you knew you were looking for land, so it probably wasn't as critical, but I can imagine many instances where you may want perfect information before you scry.
I have no criticism of this particular play, I just wanted to start some discussion.
Well that is a very interesting question but I would simply answer that it heavily depends on the context. I would not commit to a general answer to the question "Thoughtseize or Scry?". However, I could break down into two scenarios:
- Opponent is likely to be faster than you
- Opponent is not likely to be faster than you
Against infect for example, you will definitely turn 1 thoughtseize as you can potentially simply win the game on that single action if you remove their only creature and they can't top deck it fast enough. However against interactive/control deck, there is nothing really that you have to remove turn 1. Against decks that play slaugther games/blood moon etc..., you actually want to wait as long as possible before doing toughtseize so you can also monitor their first draws. Against pure control no rush, you simply want to thoughtseize a counter spell so it does not really matter when you do it.
As I mentioned it is difficult to enter the discussion without starting by setting up a very specific context. But I guess that's a start.
Will anyone critique my list?
I have yet to complete the sideboard
Ad Nauseam
4 Simian Spirit Guide, Planar Chaos
4 Lotus Bloom, 2 MMA 2 TSP
4 Ad Nauseam, Shards of Alara
4 Angel's Grace, 2 MMA 2 TSP
4 Sleight of Hand, 7ED
4 Serum Visions, 2 CN2 2 5th dawn
3 Spoils of the Vault, Mirrodin
4 Pentad Prism, 5th Dawn
4 Gemstone Mine, 3 Weatherlight 1 TSP
3 Phyrexian Unlife, New Phyrexia
1 Laboratory Maniac, ISD
1 Lightning Storm, Coldsnap
2 Silence, M14
1 Pact of Negation, MMA
3 Darkslick Shores, SOM
2 Seachrome Coast, SOM
2 Hallowed Fountain, RTR
3 Temple of Enlightenment, Born of the Gods
2 Temple of Deceit, Born of the Gods (One Japanese)
1 Ghost Quarter, Modern Event Deck
1 Nephalia Academy, EMN
2 Island
1 Plains
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Modern:
URB Grixis Delver URB
WUB Ad Nauseam WUB
(On Lantern Control)"A guy who literally just sits there and mills cards he doesn't like from your library while he slowly, slowly kills you this way."
"If a person's profile includes anime or My Little Pony, feel free to ignore everything they say."
Is the Glittering Wish version not a thing anymore? Been a while since I played the deck (sold it for Titanshift but am looking to pick up a second deck for christmas and I totally miss playing this!) and the wish version is what I played. However, I am considering switching back to the esper version. Also, is Grave Titan still tech?
Well that is a very interesting question but I would simply answer that it heavily depends on the context. I would not commit to a general answer to the question "Thoughtseize or Scry?". However, I could break down into two scenarios:
- Opponent is likely to be faster than you
- Opponent is not likely to be faster than you
Against infect for example, you will definitely turn 1 thoughtseize as you can potentially simply win the game on that single action if you remove their only creature and they can't top deck it fast enough. However against interactive/control deck, there is nothing really that you have to remove turn 1. Against decks that play slaugther games/blood moon etc..., you actually want to wait as long as possible before doing toughtseize so you can also monitor their first draws. Against pure control no rush, you simply want to thoughtseize a counter spell so it does not really matter when you do it.
As I mentioned it is difficult to enter the discussion without starting by setting up a very specific context. But I guess that's a start.
Let me rephrase that. It's not so much a question of what turn to scry as a question of sequencing scry land first or Thoughtsieze first. If you have an untapped black source and a scry land in hand, assuming it is the proper turn to Thoughtsieze, do you Thoughtsieze first giving yourself perfect information on what to scry to the top or bottom, or do you scry first and Thoughtsieze away a card based on what may be on the top of your deck?
You may be right though that it is difficult to discuss without specific context. I just find it interesting to think about.
Maybe I'm not wording it right. I'm not asking what turn is correct to thoughtseize. I understand that you want to maximize your chances of hitting their hate cards, so casting thoughtseize turn one to nab a stony silence or turn 3 to hit slaughter games is not lost on me. I was just pondering the complexity of setting up your future plays with the combination of thoughtseize and scrying on the same turn.
Do you get more value from scrying first and then thoughtseizing during the same turn? In this instance you have an idea of what your deck is going to give you, so this will influence what you take from your opponents hand. Or do you get more value from thoughtseizing first and scrying with perfect information to influence what you want your deck to give you.
In the part of the video that I pointed out, he scryed a gemstone mine to the top and then thoughtseized. Storm isn't bringing in any particularly devastating hate against us so you aren't necessarily trying to nab something that destroys our deck. You are trying to take away the most detrimental card in their hand at the time. I'm not saying one is better than the other, I'm just pointing out if he scryed a gemstone mine to the top and then saw blood moon and ascension in his opponents hand, he'd be more likely to take the blood moon than the ascension knowing another nonbasic is up next. If he thoughtseized first and saw blood moon and ascension and then took ascension, he'd be more likely to scry the gemstone mine to the bottom in hopes of hitting a basic.
Maybe I'm not wording it right. I'm not asking what turn is correct to thoughtseize. I understand that you want to maximize your chances of hitting their hate cards, so casting thoughtseize turn one to nab a stony silence or turn 3 to hit slaughter games is not lost on me. I was just pondering the complexity of setting up your future plays with the combination of thoughtseize and scrying on the same turn.
Do you get more value from scrying first and then thoughtseizing during the same turn? In this instance you have an idea of what your deck is going to give you, so this will influence what you take from your opponents hand. Or do you get more value from thoughtseizing first and scrying with perfect information to influence what you want your deck to give you.
In the part of the video that I pointed out, he scryed a gemstone mine to the top and then thoughtseized. Storm isn't bringing in any particularly devastating hate against us so you aren't necessarily trying to nab something that destroys our deck. You are trying to take away the most detrimental card in their hand at the time. I'm not saying one is better than the other, I'm just pointing out if he scryed a gemstone mine to the top and then saw blood moon and ascension in his opponents hand, he'd be more likely to take the blood moon than the ascension knowing another nonbasic is up next. If he thoughtseized first and saw blood moon and ascension and then took ascension, he'd be more likely to scry the gemstone mine to the bottom in hopes of hitting a basic.
Maybe the question is too abstract?
Hey dude, I know you weren't asking me but imo it is really a decision depending really on how you like to play the deck. It is a decision in which it is basically a 50/50 shot of having the tighter play. Personally, I'd thoughtseize then scary, just to try to grasp the hate cards ASAP, then try to set up the combo with the scry.
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Modern:
URB Grixis Delver URB
WUB Ad Nauseam WUB
(On Lantern Control)"A guy who literally just sits there and mills cards he doesn't like from your library while he slowly, slowly kills you this way."
"If a person's profile includes anime or My Little Pony, feel free to ignore everything they say."
I'm glad you answered. I directed at Deeprod, but I was hoping for anyone to chime in with their thoughts. It very well may be a 50/50 shot, but I just thought it was an interesting point in the match and could be used as for MTG philosophy discussion.
About Grave Titan, it's not really a tech, just an alternate win condition that makes you win by beating down, not the way to go in my opinion.
@ Thoughtseize : you use the card on turn 1. You want information about the opponent's hand and disrupt also his gameplan by taking the best card out of it (be it interaction or not). 2 points of life is an investment, we have to use it as a ressource and with many natural spells that keep us alive, using on turn 1 is almost the right play.
@ Thoughtseize : you use the card on turn 1. You want information about the opponent's hand and disrupt also his gameplan by taking the best card out of it (be it interaction or not). 2 points of life is an investment, we have to use it as a ressource and with many natural spells that keep us alive, using on turn 1 is almost the right play.
Cheers!
This isn't always the case as we've pointed out already. If the card that will disrupt you is a counter spell before you go off, or slaughter games naming ad nauseam then you cast it on the appropriate turn, meaning the turn before or the same turn you try to go off if you have enough mana or the turn before your opponent can cast slaughter games.
But my original post isn't even about what turn to cast thoughtseize. I feel like I keep repeating that haha. I was only trying to raise a question of philosophy on the sequencing of scry + thoughtseize or thoughtseize + scry on the same turn regardless of what turn that actually is. Scrying with perfect information, or plucking a card based on what is coming up in your next draw.
But my original post isn't even about what turn to cast thoughtseize. I feel like I keep repeating that haha. I was only trying to raise a question of philosophy on the sequencing of scry + thoughtseize or thoughtseize + scry on the same turn regardless of what turn that actually is. Scrying with perfect information, or plucking a card based on what is coming up in your next draw.
Thoughtseize is mainly turn 1 for me, I stand on that. About the sequencing, I think that scrying + Thoughtseize might be better most of the time because of the information that is given by the scry.
Has anyone played with Crovax, Ascendant Hero in a non BtL list? How was he?
Also, my question still stands if anyone has tested out Blessed Alliance. I hope to get to test it Monday vs. my buddy on Infect.
I’m new to the thread, but have been playing Ad Nauseam for a while now. At first, I loved the deck for the flavor and the complicated nature of the combo. Something about going into negative life totals and still winning is right up my alley. Then, I kept getting crushed with the deck. I mean, simple green Stompy decks without much more tech than a Rancor or two would be beating me down and I just sat there and did nothing. So, I was discouraged. Then, I see that it wins a major event (or comes in 2nd), and my faith is renewed! Then I take it out and get smashed… So, I took it as a personal challenge to learn and become proficient at piloting this deck… I’m making headway, having a 4-0 day last Wednesday at my LGS (no cut to top 8 due to small amount of players), and my first win was 2-0 vs Infect!
The reason I brought all that up, was because I noticed that this deck (much like Storm), is more about the pilot of the deck, rather than the deck itself. Anyone can pick it up and understand how the combo works, but it takes someone who intimately knows the deck to take it to the top of a main event. That’s why I joined the thread here. I want to know and be better with the intricate workings of the deck. Some of the technical details that aren’t obvious to newer pilots of the deck
3 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Seachrome Coast
3 Darkslick Shores
3 Temple of Deceit
2 Temple of Enlightenment
1 Dreadship Reef
1 Tolaria West
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Plains
Creatures 5
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Angel’s Grace
4 Ad Nauseam
3 Phyrexian Unlife
3 Spoils of the Vault
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Serum Visions
4 Lotus Bloom
4 Pentad Prism
3 Pact of Negation
1 Lightning Storm
1 Echoing Truth
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Slaughter Pact
3 Darkness
1 Pact of Negation
2 Thoughtseize
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Gigadrowse
1 Patrician’s Scorn
Maindeck Logic:
Once I started testing a lot, I started with 1 Mystical Teachings and 2 Peer Through Depths in lieu of 3 Spoils of the Vault. It worked well, but peer was an okay dig spell, but just not as versatile as Spoils. You can’t hit lands, Unlife, SSG, or anything other than Grace, AN, Pact or more dig spells… I DID like Teachings because a turn 3-4 Teachings getting that Angel’s Grace at EOT or Ad Nauseam, or a Pact is great. No BS. Just go get what you want! Problem was that 4cc… Sometimes you needed to play the tutor mid steps and you just don’t have the mana for it… So, I played with 2 Spoils / 1 Teachings for quite a while now, and finally am on the 3 spoils gameplan.
It wasn’t until I started watching the new YouTube channel that I got to SEE some plays with Spoils to see its value. Naming the card scryed to the top with Serum Visions or a Temple is a great use of the card, for example. Why not use it as a quick cantrip, especially if you have multiples in hand. Pay B and draw a card at instant speed. Not bad. Didn’t realize interactions like these (or I did, but never utilized them until now), which is the technical know-how I’m talking about.
As for lands, I’m still messing with the numbers, but these have been working well for me. I like the 21 land version, over the 20 land / 1 Slaughter Pact plan because that 1 extra land is very easily swapped out for a SB card in Game 2, and the extra kill spell in Pact is never really missed by me for game 1.
Some thoughts on lands:
Tolaria West – The tutoring is nice, but goes against the “I don’t need to shuffle so all my stuff bottomed will stay there,” plan, but when you side in the Slaughter Pact, Pact of Negation or Boseiju, it’s nice to be able to get them when you need them. I am thinking about cutting it for another basic or utility land. There are a lot of games when it’s just an annoying ETB tapped land.
3 City of Brass / 2 Gemstone Mine – Not sure if this is best, or flip it and go 2 City /3 Mine. Same goes with eliminating one or the other entirely. I’m still messing with the numbers on these two.
Dreadship Reef – Didn’t like it in the beginning, like it more now. Worst case, it’s a land that adds 1. Best case, you don’t have a ramp spell (Bloom / Prism), but you’ve got the combo in hand… instead of praying for a Prism off the top, you can at least store the counters for when you can combo… it’s more proactive than a basic.
Sideboard Logic :
These are basically staying where they’re at. The only one I may change is Darkness -> Ethereal Haze or another anti Aggro card. For right now, they’re fine at 3. The rest most ppl run and are self-explanatory.
1 Echoing Truth - *WILDCARD* Catch all for any permanent blocking the combo
4 Leyline of Sanctity - Discard / Burn / Targeted Combo decks
1 Slaughter Pact - Any aggro matchup / specific non-black creature disrupting the combo
3 Darkness - Any aggro matchup
1 Pact of Negation - Control / Combo decks
2 Thoughtseize - Control / Combo decks
These are the ones I’m debating leaving in or changing:
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All - Counter based control / combo decks
1 Gigadrowse - Counter based control / combo decks
1 Patrician’s Scorn - Enchantments (Blood Moon, Bogles decks, Leyline of
Boseiju, Who Shelters All – I’ve played too many counter based decks with Ghost Quarter / Tectonic Edge in the main. It is a HUGE waste of time pulling strings to get a land that ETB tapped, just to make 1 of the spells uncounterable. I’d rather have another Pact over a Boseiju.
Gigadrowse – Also against counter heavy decks. Can be used vs aggro as a pseudo-Fog effect, but seems VERY situational. Seems like a better card should be here.
Patrician’s Scorn – This is a useful card against Blood Moon, Leylines and Bogles; but I feel like each can be taken care of without wasting a SB space. I’ve gotten out of Blood Moons before with Blooms and Prisms. Leylines are fine and Echoing Truth takes care of them just as well as Scorn… More useful than Scorn as well. As for Bogles, I don’t care about a tier 3-4 deck that can be won / lost as easy as any aggro matchup. I’m thinking this is another wasted spot.
I was thinking that instead of these 3, running:
1 Night of Souls’ Betrayal
2 Spellskite
Wonder if this would be a better Infect matchup than just running Darkness and Slaughter Pact. Still debating.
As for our current discussion: I’ve played with Bring to Light in a 5-color Gifts deck, and it worked well as a Gifts Ungiven 5-7, or as a silver bullet like playing it for Sigarda, Host of Herons or Damnation. In this type of deck, I am not sure it translates as well as with Gifts decks / Scapeshift decks. Seems like faster dig spells (Sleight of Hand / Serum Visions) and Spoils / Teachings is just a better (less mana intensive) way our deck can dig for the combo. Other than a 40-something-ith place finish, has anyone else tested this version? I like the idea of it, but not sure it’s fast enough…
As for Crovax in the SB… Is it JUST for the Infect matchup? Or against any / all aggro decks? If so, isn’t the 6cc just too high to be effective? Seems like you wouldn’t be able to get it out fast enough to do much… Heck, I’m worried about dying before a Bloom resolves let alone have 4WW mana that fast… Like, I’ve been researching Infect tech, and cards like Night of Souls’ Betrayal costs 2 less and is hard to get rid of (without a Nature’s Claim), and I know that Crovax can be saved via losing 2 life but recasting seems near impossible before you’re dead to poison. Please let me know if it’s working, and if it’s used in the way I think it is…
So, I’m determined to become a great Ad Nauseam player. Playing the deck is an art, and I love decks like that. Where, instead of wielding a club or sword and smashing or slashing your way to a victory; you have that crazy Whip Sword from India. The one where you can literally cut your own head off by using it… But watching that warrior wield that weapon makes you really stop and appreciate the skill and art of a weapon like that… The deck needs more finesse than most to play, and I want to master it. Please help where you can guys!
-Yawg
U B Faeries
U B Mill
G W B Bant Eldrazi
It would basically destroy it.
Considering the long list of cards that could be ripe for banning, though, I wouldn't worry that much about it. No decks running SSG are oppressive right now, and it's a better bet that WotC does nothing in January than actually addresses the Modern banliat.
If the answer to all of this is Yes, how many would be recommended for a standard, NON-BTL build? 1, 2, or 3?
Sinec WotC announced that Modern is not a Pro Tour format anymore we can assume that bans will only happen when absolutely necessary. My view on that matter is that SSG is not a necessary ban as no decks pklaying SSG are crushing the modern meta (far from that actually, I believe no SSG in Tier 1 decks). However I think the talks around banning SSG are legitimate since the card allow "unfair" gameplans and increase the variance in the deck. In a nutshell and to caricature a lot: a deck relying on SSG will either do nothing or do something absolutely unfair very quickly. Even though these types of decks are not oppressive it is not a good enough reason to let them be without questioning.
The fact that is some decks can cast a blood moon turn 1 or chalice with one counter turn 1. Even though they are not oppressive, I believe this is relevant to ask the question whether this is something good to have in the diversity of our format. And I would not be surprised to see SSG gone
This is the moment I'm talking about https://youtu.be/GNVw0B7qHWM?t=19m30s
You had a Thoughtseize and Temple of Enlightenment in hand. You can either scry first to set up your next turn and then Thoughtseize away whatever you are weak to, or you can Thoughtseize first and then scry for what you can't answer. In this situation, you knew you were looking for land, so it probably wasn't as critical, but I can imagine many instances where you may want perfect information before you scry.
I have no criticism of this particular play, I just wanted to start some discussion.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
Always glad to hear that! thanks a lot!
Well that is a very interesting question but I would simply answer that it heavily depends on the context. I would not commit to a general answer to the question "Thoughtseize or Scry?". However, I could break down into two scenarios:
- Opponent is likely to be faster than you
- Opponent is not likely to be faster than you
Against infect for example, you will definitely turn 1 thoughtseize as you can potentially simply win the game on that single action if you remove their only creature and they can't top deck it fast enough. However against interactive/control deck, there is nothing really that you have to remove turn 1. Against decks that play slaugther games/blood moon etc..., you actually want to wait as long as possible before doing toughtseize so you can also monitor their first draws. Against pure control no rush, you simply want to thoughtseize a counter spell so it does not really matter when you do it.
As I mentioned it is difficult to enter the discussion without starting by setting up a very specific context. But I guess that's a start.
I have yet to complete the sideboard
Ad Nauseam
4 Simian Spirit Guide, Planar Chaos
4 Lotus Bloom, 2 MMA 2 TSP
4 Ad Nauseam, Shards of Alara
4 Angel's Grace, 2 MMA 2 TSP
4 Sleight of Hand, 7ED
4 Serum Visions, 2 CN2 2 5th dawn
3 Spoils of the Vault, Mirrodin
4 Pentad Prism, 5th Dawn
4 Gemstone Mine, 3 Weatherlight 1 TSP
3 Phyrexian Unlife, New Phyrexia
1 Laboratory Maniac, ISD
1 Lightning Storm, Coldsnap
2 Silence, M14
1 Pact of Negation, MMA
3 Darkslick Shores, SOM
2 Seachrome Coast, SOM
2 Hallowed Fountain, RTR
3 Temple of Enlightenment, Born of the Gods
2 Temple of Deceit, Born of the Gods (One Japanese)
1 Ghost Quarter, Modern Event Deck
1 Nephalia Academy, EMN
2 Island
1 Plains
Let me rephrase that. It's not so much a question of what turn to scry as a question of sequencing scry land first or Thoughtsieze first. If you have an untapped black source and a scry land in hand, assuming it is the proper turn to Thoughtsieze, do you Thoughtsieze first giving yourself perfect information on what to scry to the top or bottom, or do you scry first and Thoughtsieze away a card based on what may be on the top of your deck?
You may be right though that it is difficult to discuss without specific context. I just find it interesting to think about.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
Do you get more value from scrying first and then thoughtseizing during the same turn? In this instance you have an idea of what your deck is going to give you, so this will influence what you take from your opponents hand. Or do you get more value from thoughtseizing first and scrying with perfect information to influence what you want your deck to give you.
In the part of the video that I pointed out, he scryed a gemstone mine to the top and then thoughtseized. Storm isn't bringing in any particularly devastating hate against us so you aren't necessarily trying to nab something that destroys our deck. You are trying to take away the most detrimental card in their hand at the time. I'm not saying one is better than the other, I'm just pointing out if he scryed a gemstone mine to the top and then saw blood moon and ascension in his opponents hand, he'd be more likely to take the blood moon than the ascension knowing another nonbasic is up next. If he thoughtseized first and saw blood moon and ascension and then took ascension, he'd be more likely to scry the gemstone mine to the bottom in hopes of hitting a basic.
Maybe the question is too abstract?
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
Hey dude, I know you weren't asking me but imo it is really a decision depending really on how you like to play the deck. It is a decision in which it is basically a 50/50 shot of having the tighter play. Personally, I'd thoughtseize then scary, just to try to grasp the hate cards ASAP, then try to set up the combo with the scry.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
About Grave Titan, it's not really a tech, just an alternate win condition that makes you win by beating down, not the way to go in my opinion.
@ Thoughtseize : you use the card on turn 1. You want information about the opponent's hand and disrupt also his gameplan by taking the best card out of it (be it interaction or not). 2 points of life is an investment, we have to use it as a ressource and with many natural spells that keep us alive, using on turn 1 is almost the right play.
Cheers!
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
This isn't always the case as we've pointed out already. If the card that will disrupt you is a counter spell before you go off, or slaughter games naming ad nauseam then you cast it on the appropriate turn, meaning the turn before or the same turn you try to go off if you have enough mana or the turn before your opponent can cast slaughter games.
But my original post isn't even about what turn to cast thoughtseize. I feel like I keep repeating that haha. I was only trying to raise a question of philosophy on the sequencing of scry + thoughtseize or thoughtseize + scry on the same turn regardless of what turn that actually is. Scrying with perfect information, or plucking a card based on what is coming up in your next draw.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
Ignorant Bliss
Bottled Cloister
Thoughtseize is mainly turn 1 for me, I stand on that. About the sequencing, I think that scrying + Thoughtseize might be better most of the time because of the information that is given by the scry.
Cheers!
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R