Thanks MaxeKu for the input : I'm flooded with Affinity all over, but I've been running 3 fogs most of the times I went into a competition. I'll go with this sideboard :
I like having Disenchant to take care of problematic permanent and to bring it in agaisnt artifact-based decks like Affinity, Lantern Control, etc. Scorn is really a card that gets in to clear away Leyline of Sanctity or other problematic permanent like Stony Silence after an Ad Nauseam resolved. It's very useful and I wouldn't scratch it out of the sideboard.
Regarding Spellskite, I don't own a single one! I could borrow 2, that would be good, but I'm not so sure it helps the Infect matchup that much. I'd rather have something in place of Disenchant like Night of Souls' Betrayal or anything that could disrupt them directly while serving in other matchups (BW Tokens, Zoo, Affinity, etc.).
Can people explain why you are playing 1 Maniac/1 Storm in the mainboard and not just 2x Storm and the Maniac in the SB? With Spoils I always play 2 Storm as I want to be able to combo off at instant speed and with 2 Storm even if I exile one off Spoils I can still combo.
In Game 1, I just don't see any relevant scenario's where Maniac is that good. Dredge, Infect, Jund, and Burn are the most popular decks and you don't want Maniac in any of those. Some people will say Spellskite but I've rarely had problems combo'ing off with Storm against Spellskite, even without a Slaughter Pact. It's not like Abzan Company is even popular anymore.
Maniac just seems like more of a SB card when decks bring in Leyline or against decks with lifegain.
Can people explain why you are playing 1 Maniac/1 Storm in the mainboard and not just 2x Storm and the Maniac in the SB? With Spoils I always play 2 Storm as I want to be able to combo off at instant speed and with 2 Storm even if I exile one off Spoils I can still combo.
In Game 1, I just don't see any relevant scenario's where Maniac is that good. Dredge, Infect, Jund, and Burn are the most popular decks and you don't want Maniac in any of those. Some people will say Spellskite but I've rarely had problems combo'ing off with Storm against Spellskite, even without a Slaughter Pact. It's not like Abzan Company is even popular anymore.
Maniac just seems like more of a SB card when decks bring in Leyline or against decks with lifegain.
Maniac can pick free wins without Ad Nauseam for 2UUBW, comboing with Angel's Grace + Spoils of the Vault (naming a card not in the deck) + Serum Visions. There are occasions where your opponent taps out and you just win, even without the AN. The mana required sometimes is less, as if you have a Phyrexian Unlife active you just need 2UUB and if you already played the labman because you know the coast is safe you just win in your upkeep with WB or just B (if you have an unlife active), then passing priority to win at draw step. Another bonus is that the labman doesn't target nor requires dealing damage, nor making life total change (good in fringe scenarios like MB Leyline of Sanctity, Pithing Needle/Phyrexian Revoker naming Lightning Storm, or Madcap Experiment combo), it also often requires less mana investment and cards in hand to win.
Albeit more fragile, sometimes in G1 the labman window opens and it's insanely good to take advantage of it. Another plus is that people not experienced with AN think that's your sole wincon and keep in removal for sideboard games, although this is barely a real thing it sometimes just happens (especially at LGS level).
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Can people explain why you are playing 1 Maniac/1 Storm in the mainboard and not just 2x Storm and the Maniac in the SB? With Spoils I always play 2 Storm as I want to be able to combo off at instant speed and with 2 Storm even if I exile one off Spoils I can still combo.
In Game 1, I just don't see any relevant scenario's where Maniac is that good. Dredge, Infect, Jund, and Burn are the most popular decks and you don't want Maniac in any of those. Some people will say Spellskite but I've rarely had problems combo'ing off with Storm against Spellskite, even without a Slaughter Pact. It's not like Abzan Company is even popular anymore.
Maniac just seems like more of a SB card when decks bring in Leyline or against decks with lifegain.
Too me, the fact that Maniac allow you an alternative win con (Spoils+Maniac+Grace/Unlife) without Ad Nauseam (!) is a good enough explanation for having a Maniac main instead of doubling storm. However, even if you are not running spoils, Here are a few corner cases where Mania is good in the MAIN (as you are already convinced that it is necessary in the side):
- Merfolks (Kira redirect tech cannot be answered with main deck tools, maniac is the only way)
- Affinity (Vault Skirge/Cranial Plating can put your storm out of the game)
- Abzan Company
- Soul Sisters (for obvious reason of heavy life gain)
- Boggles (Daybreak Coronet)
- BW Tokens (Auriok Champion/Timely reinforcement)
- Ad Nauseam (Lightning storm kill can be cancelled by angel's grace, Maniac kill can be cancelled but only for one turn)
- Lantern Control (Pithing needle in the main)
All together, I believe it outweighs the fact that it loses the instant speed feat. Which is mostly relevant against pure control decks.
Can people explain why you are playing 1 Maniac/1 Storm in the mainboard and not just 2x Storm and the Maniac in the SB? With Spoils I always play 2 Storm as I want to be able to combo off at instant speed and with 2 Storm even if I exile one off Spoils I can still combo.
In Game 1, I just don't see any relevant scenario's where Maniac is that good. Dredge, Infect, Jund, and Burn are the most popular decks and you don't want Maniac in any of those. Some people will say Spellskite but I've rarely had problems combo'ing off with Storm against Spellskite, even without a Slaughter Pact. It's not like Abzan Company is even popular anymore.
Maniac just seems like more of a SB card when decks bring in Leyline or against decks with lifegain.
Too me, the fact that Maniac allow you an alternative win con (Spoils+Maniac+Grace/Unlife) without Ad Nauseam (!) is a good enough explanation for having a Maniac main instead of doubling storm. However, even if you are not running spoils, Here are a few corner cases where Mania is good in the MAIN (as you are already convinced that it is necessary in the side):
- Merfolks (Kira redirect tech cannot be answered with main deck tools, maniac is the only way)
- Affinity (Vault Skirge/Cranial Plating can put your storm out of the game)
- Abzan Company
- Soul Sisters (for obvious reason of heavy life gain)
- Boggles (Daybreak Coronet)
- BW Tokens (Auriok Champion/Timely reinforcement)
- Ad Nauseam (Lightning storm kill can be cancelled by angel's grace, Maniac kill can be cancelled but only for one turn)
- Lantern Control (Pithing needle in the main)
All together, I believe it outweighs the fact that it loses the instant speed feat. Which is mostly relevant against pure control decks.
The spoils w/ maniac kill (spoils naming a card you don't have in your deck on upkeep, then go to drawstep and win) is also relevant vs deck that don't play a lot of removal (or in g2/3 when they sided out removals)
Also most of the things you guys say makes no sense.
I have played hundred of games with nauseam. And I have faced 0 times g1 leyline.
And conflagrate does mores damage and dosnt care about spellskite.
If you want a win con like maniac md. then just play conflagrate. Its more eficient. Lab man is a decent sb card.
Also the maniac kill happens 1/50 games. Wich is not a real reason to play it.
This is why I ultimately am giving up on this sub--it's all new people, no veterans testing. (not that I really suspected anything different). Some of the sideboarding plans you guys talk about are hot garbage and basically the total opposite of what is good, then it's justified with...no good experience that led to that conclusion to begin with.
I admit to being one of those new people to the deck, but I always assumed that the MD LabMan was not there because it was the BEST alt-win con for game one, but because it was good enough G1 if Storm is offline, and having it main over Conflagrate bought you another precious sideboard slot. Right?
Since Lightning Storm is enough in 90+% of game ones, and you frequently want a non-damage win condition post-sideboard, the question may actually be whether Conflagrate is enough better that it's worth its own deck building cost.
You could also just skip playing LabMan entirely for the two fireball effects, but that's it's own non-zero opportunity cost, too. Just some thoughts.
Also most of the things you guys say makes no sense.
I have played hundred of games with nauseam. And I have faced 0 times g1 leyline.
And conflagrate does mores damage and dosnt care about spellskite.
If you want a win con like maniac md. then just play conflagrate. Its more eficient. Lab man is a decent sb card.
Also the maniac kill happens 1/50 games. Wich is not a real reason to play it.
I think the Lab Man in the main cropped up when Abzan CoCo was everywhere (I know that's when I started using it). In a meta that's heavy in that deck having it main doesn't hurt and gives you an out to a game 1 infinite life. And then it just stuck around when that deck went away because lists don't change that often, especially for decks like this that aren't played as heavily.
My meta has a bunch of decks that can gain enough life to make lightning storm not work and sometimes even conflag. It's nice to be able to attack another axis. I have spoils killed through slaughter games a few times now too
I think lab man doe a few good things--namely it buys you space in your sideboard for...what is turning into cute *****, and not actually saving people too many slots.
No decks in the format are gaining infinite life right now, especially game 1. Congflagrate has game as removal, is cheaper to cast than lab man, and has a whole host of upsides against BGx that I've described in previous arguments for the card.
It's ok to be new, make mistakes, or theorize incorrectly--but at some point we have to be honest about the games you're winning/not winning and adjust the plans.
Can I direct the discussion for a second to illustrate the point I'm after:
HOW DO YOU GUYS SIDEBOARD AGAINST JUND AND WHY? PLEASE NOTE ANYTHING RELEVANT TO YOUR LIST THAT ISN'T STOCK.
I'm not 100% sure that my sideboard plan is correct but it's worked OK for me OK. It's possible that spoils should be out instead of prism/unlife but my experience has mostly been that if I stick a leyline I win, and sometimes I get a good 7 and win.
In the Jund matchup spoils mostly gets used as a bad cycler with scry, but I have used it before.
Thoughtseize has been far better than I expected in the matchup, as Jund is often light on threats or I can take their Liliana which buys me a long time to durdle around.
Generally the theory is that pentad prism and unlife are more likely to fuel a goyf than do much else in this matchup and that's generally been right to me. You rarely want to try to combo out with unlife because they always have decay, but with this model you can try to protect it with thoughtseize too.
I have not tested Crovax, but my initial thoughts are that he is two turns slower which probably means by the time you can cast it you're alread dead against the decks you want to bring it in against. Also, in most cases where you want -1/-1 effects the effect itself is enough to win the game and doesn't necessarily need the body attached to it. But maybe someone else can shed some light on the choice?
Can someone give me some example combo scenarios where Laboratory Maniac can win us the game?
* Abzan company gains infinite life
* Soul Sisters gets to 35-50
* Allies gets to 35-50 with ondu clerics? wtf but this has happened to me twice now
* Mono blue tron sticks a Platinum Angel
* Platinum Emperion/Madcap Experiment
* Opponent has a spellskite g1 (before you have slaughter pact).
* Opponent has Kira and you think they have a land to gank you
* Opponent has extracted your ad nauseams, you can win with Spoils+Lab Man. Happens more often than I thought (about 2 of my last 30 games).
It comes up with some frequency, especially the more your meta plays janky random stuff.
Dont sideboard out Phryexian Unlife. It gives u more turns against goyf and for the most part, u can combo of with just one topdeck. It happens often, that u have zero cards in hand but got a unlife and just find ADN. Jund players for example dont have that many enchantremovals. Even after boarding ist kind of maximum of 2-3 decay, 1-2 maelstorm pulse
Dont sideboard out Phryexian Unlife. It gives u more turns against goyf and for the most part, u can combo of with just one topdeck. It happens often, that u have zero cards in hand but got a unlife and just find ADN. Jund players for example dont have that many enchantremovals. Even after boarding ist kind of maximum of 2-3 decay, 1-2 maelstorm pulse
Both junds in my meta run 4 decays and 2 pulse because our meta is extremely low to the ground. I've found that unlife is usually a liability as they know one of their outs is holding a decay for it.
That said, I could see cutting 2 spoils instead of 2 unlife and may try that in the future just because of how generally questionable spoils is in the match.
4 leyline
1 nephalias academy
1 boseiju
2 thoughseize
1 lab man
3 darkness
1 pact of negation
2 other cards depending what I feel.
You realize holy day is a strict upgrade over darkness as it non combat damage too (grim lavamancer etc).
Also Sun and Moon is playing maindeck leylines at the moment so a non targeting win con is good, affinty can gain enough life to get out of range as can some other fringe decks like boggles.
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Darkness
2 Thoughtseize
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Disenchant
1 Echoing Truth
1 Patrician's Scorn
1 Silence
1 Supreme Verdict
I like having Disenchant to take care of problematic permanent and to bring it in agaisnt artifact-based decks like Affinity, Lantern Control, etc. Scorn is really a card that gets in to clear away Leyline of Sanctity or other problematic permanent like Stony Silence after an Ad Nauseam resolved. It's very useful and I wouldn't scratch it out of the sideboard.
Regarding Spellskite, I don't own a single one! I could borrow 2, that would be good, but I'm not so sure it helps the Infect matchup that much. I'd rather have something in place of Disenchant like Night of Souls' Betrayal or anything that could disrupt them directly while serving in other matchups (BW Tokens, Zoo, Affinity, etc.).
Cheers!
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
In Game 1, I just don't see any relevant scenario's where Maniac is that good. Dredge, Infect, Jund, and Burn are the most popular decks and you don't want Maniac in any of those. Some people will say Spellskite but I've rarely had problems combo'ing off with Storm against Spellskite, even without a Slaughter Pact. It's not like Abzan Company is even popular anymore.
Maniac just seems like more of a SB card when decks bring in Leyline or against decks with lifegain.
Maniac can pick free wins without Ad Nauseam for 2UUBW, comboing with Angel's Grace + Spoils of the Vault (naming a card not in the deck) + Serum Visions. There are occasions where your opponent taps out and you just win, even without the AN. The mana required sometimes is less, as if you have a Phyrexian Unlife active you just need 2UUB and if you already played the labman because you know the coast is safe you just win in your upkeep with WB or just B (if you have an unlife active), then passing priority to win at draw step. Another bonus is that the labman doesn't target nor requires dealing damage, nor making life total change (good in fringe scenarios like MB Leyline of Sanctity, Pithing Needle/Phyrexian Revoker naming Lightning Storm, or Madcap Experiment combo), it also often requires less mana investment and cards in hand to win.
Albeit more fragile, sometimes in G1 the labman window opens and it's insanely good to take advantage of it. Another plus is that people not experienced with AN think that's your sole wincon and keep in removal for sideboard games, although this is barely a real thing it sometimes just happens (especially at LGS level).
Too me, the fact that Maniac allow you an alternative win con (Spoils+Maniac+Grace/Unlife) without Ad Nauseam (!) is a good enough explanation for having a Maniac main instead of doubling storm. However, even if you are not running spoils, Here are a few corner cases where Mania is good in the MAIN (as you are already convinced that it is necessary in the side):
- Merfolks (Kira redirect tech cannot be answered with main deck tools, maniac is the only way)
- Affinity (Vault Skirge/Cranial Plating can put your storm out of the game)
- Abzan Company
- Soul Sisters (for obvious reason of heavy life gain)
- Boggles (Daybreak Coronet)
- BW Tokens (Auriok Champion/Timely reinforcement)
- Ad Nauseam (Lightning storm kill can be cancelled by angel's grace, Maniac kill can be cancelled but only for one turn)
- Lantern Control (Pithing needle in the main)
All together, I believe it outweighs the fact that it loses the instant speed feat. Which is mostly relevant against pure control decks.
The spoils w/ maniac kill (spoils naming a card you don't have in your deck on upkeep, then go to drawstep and win) is also relevant vs deck that don't play a lot of removal (or in g2/3 when they sided out removals)
Its just because conflagrate is another win condition that requires targeting and dealing dmg. Maniac avoiding this completly.
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This is why I ultimately am giving up on this sub--it's all new people, no veterans testing. (not that I really suspected anything different). Some of the sideboarding plans you guys talk about are hot garbage and basically the total opposite of what is good, then it's justified with...no good experience that led to that conclusion to begin with.
I played this list last night and easily 4-0'd:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=109301
It's basically go no frills, no spice. Sometimes things don't need to change.
Since Lightning Storm is enough in 90+% of game ones, and you frequently want a non-damage win condition post-sideboard, the question may actually be whether Conflagrate is enough better that it's worth its own deck building cost.
You could also just skip playing LabMan entirely for the two fireball effects, but that's it's own non-zero opportunity cost, too. Just some thoughts.
I think the Lab Man in the main cropped up when Abzan CoCo was everywhere (I know that's when I started using it). In a meta that's heavy in that deck having it main doesn't hurt and gives you an out to a game 1 infinite life. And then it just stuck around when that deck went away because lists don't change that often, especially for decks like this that aren't played as heavily.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
No decks in the format are gaining infinite life right now, especially game 1. Congflagrate has game as removal, is cheaper to cast than lab man, and has a whole host of upsides against BGx that I've described in previous arguments for the card.
It's ok to be new, make mistakes, or theorize incorrectly--but at some point we have to be honest about the games you're winning/not winning and adjust the plans.
Can I direct the discussion for a second to illustrate the point I'm after:
HOW DO YOU GUYS SIDEBOARD AGAINST JUND AND WHY? PLEASE NOTE ANYTHING RELEVANT TO YOUR LIST THAT ISN'T STOCK.
-3 pact of negation -2 pentad prism -2 phyrexian unlife -1 laboratory maniac
I'm not 100% sure that my sideboard plan is correct but it's worked OK for me OK. It's possible that spoils should be out instead of prism/unlife but my experience has mostly been that if I stick a leyline I win, and sometimes I get a good 7 and win.
In the Jund matchup spoils mostly gets used as a bad cycler with scry, but I have used it before.
Thoughtseize has been far better than I expected in the matchup, as Jund is often light on threats or I can take their Liliana which buys me a long time to durdle around.
Generally the theory is that pentad prism and unlife are more likely to fuel a goyf than do much else in this matchup and that's generally been right to me. You rarely want to try to combo out with unlife because they always have decay, but with this model you can try to protect it with thoughtseize too.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
U B Faeries
U B Mill
G W B Bant Eldrazi
* Abzan company gains infinite life
* Soul Sisters gets to 35-50
* Allies gets to 35-50 with ondu clerics? wtf but this has happened to me twice now
* Mono blue tron sticks a Platinum Angel
* Platinum Emperion/Madcap Experiment
* Opponent has a spellskite g1 (before you have slaughter pact).
* Opponent has Kira and you think they have a land to gank you
* Opponent has extracted your ad nauseams, you can win with Spoils+Lab Man. Happens more often than I thought (about 2 of my last 30 games).
It comes up with some frequency, especially the more your meta plays janky random stuff.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Dont sideboard out Phryexian Unlife. It gives u more turns against goyf and for the most part, u can combo of with just one topdeck. It happens often, that u have zero cards in hand but got a unlife and just find ADN. Jund players for example dont have that many enchantremovals. Even after boarding ist kind of maximum of 2-3 decay, 1-2 maelstorm pulse
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Both junds in my meta run 4 decays and 2 pulse because our meta is extremely low to the ground. I've found that unlife is usually a liability as they know one of their outs is holding a decay for it.
That said, I could see cutting 2 spoils instead of 2 unlife and may try that in the future just because of how generally questionable spoils is in the match.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Holy Day only prevents combat damage. I think you meant Ethereal Haze.
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles