Thoughts on this sideboard for the standard spoils of the vault version? Its mostly standard with the exception of disenchant and collective brutality: the former which has its uses against any deck running stony silence or blood moon as well as affinity and collective brutality as a means of discard against combo and control decks as well as having utility against infect and death and taxes.
Thoughts on this sideboard for the standard spoils of the vault version? Its mostly standard with the exception of disenchant and collective brutality: the former which has its uses against any deck running stony silence or blood moon as well as affinity and collective brutality as a means of discard against combo and control decks as well as having utility against infect and death and taxes.
Echoing Truth, as it's just a catch-all. Also blood moon isn't that big of an issue with our mana rocks.
I'd also add a 2nd Lightning Storm(or Lab Maniac if you don't have 1 mainboard). Some matchups you just can win with Maniac, and you want two Storms so you don't exile 1 with Spoils.
I see people with 1 storm/maniac in the main, but never a 2nd storm in the SB and it doesn't make sense. Against decks like Jund/Abzan you aren't going to win with Maniac. With their discard sometimes taking a storm or you just exiling it with Spoils I always want 2 Storm/1 Maniac in my 75.
Thoughts on this sideboard for the standard spoils of the vault version? Its mostly standard with the exception of disenchant and collective brutality: the former which has its uses against any deck running stony silence or blood moon as well as affinity and collective brutality as a means of discard against combo and control decks as well as having utility against infect and death and taxes.
Echoing Truth, as it's just a catch-all. Also blood moon isn't that big of an issue with our mana rocks.
I'd also add a 2nd Lightning Storm(or Lab Maniac if you don't have 1 mainboard). Some matchups you just can win with Maniac, and you want two Storms so you don't exile 1 with Spoils.
I see people with 1 storm/maniac in the main, but never a 2nd storm in the SB and it doesn't make sense. Against decks like Jund/Abzan you aren't going to win with Maniac. With their discard sometimes taking a storm or you just exiling it with Spoils I always want 2 Storm/1 Maniac in my 75.
I thought this was true--about lab man against BGx. If they haven't blown it on a mana rock or a phyrexian unlife already, they probably don't have it. I won back to back games 2 and 3 this last weekend against a Jund opponent who named LS with pithing needle. He made me sweat like was going to blow the maniac with ANY removal game 2 (didn't have any pacts left in the deck game 2), and after he got burned by it the first time he pithing needled again and still didn't have removal (though this time I had a pact just in case of bolt/terminate). This is the first time I think ever in a year of playing the deck that I've actually been needled--but also the first time I took a lab man to a big event over conflagrate (which would have been a far less stressful win-con against BGx. It can even be discarded to liliana no sweat).
Great job man! You faced a friend of mine in top4 mirror match!
Anyway really weird mainlist : 20 lands, no maniac, fetchlands, etc...anyway if u won, it means it worked!
Thanks, I had found Bob's article, but Andreas' was a good read as well.
I just find curious there's no consensus about the sb past the typical slots (2 Pacts, 1 Boseiju, 2 Seizes, 4 Leyline): 3 solution spells (bounces of some sort usually), 3 spellskite, 3 fogs. What's the majority trend around here?
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Thought of the Month: I gave up from trying to require the 'i' on my name: SolesticIo
Hey all. I just wrote an article on my Ad Nauseam list and some cards im considering running. I have had some success with the deck and I have been playing it for years. Let me all know your thoughts. I have seen some great Ad Nauseam discussion in this thread and I can't wait to see it continue.
Been playing this deck for 2 years and I think I'm finally going to start playing something else. Played in a PPTQ 2 weeks ago and played Infect, Bant Eldrazi, and Grixis Delver all of which are terrible matchups.
I just don't see what decks are a good matchup for us. Infect, Affinity, Bant Eldrazi, Grixis Delver are all bad matchups. Jund is a bad matchup. Suicide Zoo is a bad matchup.
The only decks we are good against are Jeskai Nahiri, Kiki-Chord, Burn/Zoo, Merfolk, Scapeshift, and Tron.
The only thing is the format is so proactive right now and I'd much rather be playing one of those decks than this.
Ad Nauseam is the definition of a proactive deck. I dont think that a lot of the decks you listed are that bad. With the right build and sideboard, I think the deck is well positioned against the greater Modern meta. We have removal, bounce spells, fog effects in my board that help deal with all of the "bad" matchups you listed. Games can be close and nail biters, but not that bad.
Been playing this deck for 2 years and I think I'm finally going to start playing something else. Played in a PPTQ 2 weeks ago and played Infect, Bant Eldrazi, and Grixis Delver all of which are terrible matchups.
I just don't see what decks are a good matchup for us. Infect, Affinity, Bant Eldrazi, Grixis Delver are all bad matchups. Jund is a bad matchup. Suicide Zoo is a bad matchup.
The only decks we are good against are Jeskai Nahiri, Kiki-Chord, Burn/Zoo, Merfolk, Scapeshift, and Tron.
The only thing is the format is so proactive right now and I'd much rather be playing one of those decks than this.
I'd love other people's thoughts.
What is giving you trouble with Bant Eldrazi, Grixis? I'm still thinking of all the decks you listed that we're only a dog to infect. Everything else I'd put at 50/50. I'm having trouble with sui-zoo but I'm considering trying engineered explosives for it, which helps out against the other aggro lists too.
Normally I try and have a stony silence proof sideboard, but I've been feeling otherwise lately.
Been playing this deck for 2 years and I think I'm finally going to start playing something else. Played in a PPTQ 2 weeks ago and played Infect, Bant Eldrazi, and Grixis Delver all of which are terrible matchups.
I just don't see what decks are a good matchup for us. Infect, Affinity, Bant Eldrazi, Grixis Delver are all bad matchups. Jund is a bad matchup. Suicide Zoo is a bad matchup.
The only decks we are good against are Jeskai Nahiri, Kiki-Chord, Burn/Zoo, Merfolk, Scapeshift, and Tron.
The only thing is the format is so proactive right now and I'd much rather be playing one of those decks than this.
I'd love other people's thoughts.
What is giving you trouble with Bant Eldrazi, Grixis? I'm still thinking of all the decks you listed that we're only a dog to infect. Everything else I'd put at 50/50. I'm having trouble with sui-zoo but I'm considering trying engineered explosives for it, which helps out against the other aggro lists too.
Normally I try and have a stony silence proof sideboard, but I've been feeling otherwise lately.
not sure if you're biased cause you want the deck to be better, but Bant and Grixis Delver are bad matchups.
Both decks put a fast clock on you and have counters. Bant can take cards with TKS, race you with Reality Smasher, plus have Stubborn Denial. Stony Silence is also rough.
Grixis Delver also puts a clock on you and backs it up with counters.
Bant isn't that unfavorable, but I still think its. 55-45 in there favor. Delver is probably closer to 60-40.
After reading both sb guides, I'd like to bring up the sb discussion, since the main deck seems to be consensual and pretty fixed, except for maybe number of temples and Reefs (edit: and 4th unlife vs 21st land).
The sb looks like:
1 Pact of Negation
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Thoughtseize
1 Boseiju
+ 6 flex slots which usually contain a mix of the following: Fog effect (Darkness or Ethereal Haze), Bounce effects (Hurkyl's Recall and Echoing Truth), and Spellskite.
After seeing a few guides, it seems to me there are many different views in how to approach each matchup. I can't even understand if someone is right or wrong, or if it's just a philosophy in how the players see the deck. For example, Andreas played 0 fogs, whereas Bob lists 0 spellskites and 0 Recalls (1 Truth), and Scapeshift84 above played 0 spellskite and 2+2 of the others.
Also, what players side out in each MU is quite interesting. Again, maybe it's how they see the deck operating, but here are a few examples:
Q: To add or remove Unlifes?
D: I think Andreas' point is that it's decayable, so you're better off comboing with spells. Bob's argument is that Unlife gives you a shot to combo from the top of the deck against lili.
Q: What to take out first, Bloom or Unlife?
D: I'd say the second one.
Tron
Andreas: -3 Spoils, +1 Pact of Negation, +2 Thoughtseize
Bob: -3 Pact of Negation, +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Slaughter Pact, +1 Unlife
Scapeshift84: -2 Phyrexian Unlife, -1 Pact Of Negation, -1 Pentad Prism, +2 Thoughtseize +2 Hurkyl’s Recall
Q: Do you need spoils? To add or remove Pact of Negation? And Unlife?
D: Adreas' makes the point the MU is so good you don't need the risk to spoil your win (see what I did there?).
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Thought of the Month: I gave up from trying to require the 'i' on my name: SolesticIo
Hey guys, been playing Ad Nauseam for about half a year or so. I decided to put the deck away after casting Spoils of the Vault and pounding myself for 20 points of life loss. (To be fair, if Ad Nauseam wasn't in the top 20 of my deck, I wasn't gonna hit it anyway). Anyways, I switched up the deck shortly after Oath of the Gatewatch, and have been seeing significant results with Bring to Light, and Glittering Wish. I'd like to know if anyone else has had success with this?
.....Bring to Light, and Glittering Wish. I'd like to know if anyone else has had success with this?
Played that version for a while, lots of fun. Wouldn't consider it the best version currently because of how fast the meta is but the list has its merits against slower decks where you can find time to Glittering Wish for powerful cards like Supreme Verdict, Dromoka, or Fracturing Gust.
ok, you're saying he is right but aren't backing it up with any reason. I'd love to hear why you think Bant and Grixis Delver are good matchups.
You gave anecdotal commentary, so my anecdotal commentary is that I'm 100-0 against Bantdrazi, and have a roughly 60-40 MU against Grixis Delver. Fortunately I don't believe these results to be perfectly indicative of how the matchup should play out because they're small-ish samples and they're only my personal experiences (The Grixis delver one is probably around 20 matches but the Bantdrazi one is only 4). As mentioned before I'm in the process of typing out a longer expression of my thoughts on the meta and our matchups but my general reasoning is this: Bantdrazi only has ~9 relevant cards in their 75 (4 TKS, 3 Counters, 2 Stony) They're a linear aggro deck and we're pretty good against linear aggro decks (Fogs, Unlife, Grace). All it takes to win a game against Grixis Delver is a decent hand with a Pact, they don't run too much hand disruption and so while the matchup is certainly not terrible (likely not 60-40) it is a bit coin-flip based.
.....Bring to Light, and Glittering Wish. I'd like to know if anyone else has had success with this?
Played that version for a while, lots of fun. Wouldn't consider it the best version currently because of how fast the meta is but the list has its merits against slower decks where you can find time to Glittering Wish for powerful cards like Supreme Verdict, Dromoka, or Fracturing Gust.
I think what this version has done for me is that it's taken out a bunch of fishing for stall cards and combo pieces. Usually I go for T1 Serum Visions, T2 Glittering Wish for Wargate, T3 Wargate X=0 for Lotus Bloom, then have the 6 mana to go off on turn 4. Otherwise, Wish for whatever combo piece I'm missing.
Went 4-0 and 3-1 with it last two times I played, but I'd attribute it more to catching the playgroup off guard with the list. Many of the players hadn't seen Glittering Wish before, and didn't seem to know what the deck did until it was too late.
I'd keep Unlife in against Jund following Bob's reasoning, Board Unlife out because it does so little against Infect, and definitely keep spoils against Tron. There's some more commentary on SB'ing below.
So there's 3 lists I'm interested in looking at for now, because they bring up some interesting talking points and proofs of concept.
But first, some general metagame and matchup commentary.
As it stands today, the top 8 decks according to MTGGoldfish are Jund and 7 Aggro decks. After that we get into a slew of good matchups for us; Jeskai Nahiri, RG Tron, Living End, and Scapeshift. At this point we’ve covered every deck with >2% metagame share (except us/the mirror)and 53% of the total meta. The considerable chunk of remaining decks shouldn’t be ignored but for the most part they can be looked at like control decks that aren’t quite as good as Jeskai, midrange decks that aren’t quite as good as Jund, and so on. Notably in that group is one of our other considerably poorer matchups in Death and Taxes. However, there’s only so much I want to talk about in one post so I’ll be glazing over the latter half of the meta.
Let’s start with the good matchups: Jeskai Nahiri, RG Tron, Living End, and Scapeshift. Jeskai Nahiri
Nahiri does make the control Match slightly less one-sided, but the fact remains that we are still quite well positioned against them. Instant speed combo and MD Pacts are still powerful, but more care needs to be exercised about giving them a window to play Nahiri. Boseiju still puts this matchup away solidly, and anything else is really overkill. RG Tron
Sideboarding out Spoils is an interesting choice here, but more on that later. The only thing they can do is stick a T3 Karn, which despite the deck being able to do relatively consistently, doesn’t even guarantee a win. No list I’ve seen has a SB with any dedicated Tron hate, and I feel that this is a reasonable trend. Worldbreaker and the increase in MD Spellskites and SB Sudden Shocks is worrying. Living End
Land destruction can be annoying, Ingot Chewer is a nuisance, and Slaughter games is kinda scary. Fortunately Slaughter Games isn’t overly common in these lists yet, so the matchup still ends up being fairly easy. Dredge being a relevant deck makes graveyard hate a bit more appealing but I don’t think it is truly warranted yet. Scapeshift
Bring to Light is a huge card if they have Slaughter Games, but again it isn’t overly common. Leyline is still really good here, and we can put lots of pressure on them to make tapping out for a BTL much less appealing. Boseiju also does good things here.
So in summary, the only thing that I think makes enough of a difference in our good matchups is Boseiju, and maybe a Scorn/Truth to help against some of the Leyline of Sanctity’s that even Living End apparently can run? The less slots that get used on good matchups though the better, as we then have more slots for the bad or 50-50 matchups.
Out of the top 8 the two stand-out decks are Infect and Jund, for being a terrible matchup and the only non-aggro deck respectively.
Infect
There are plenty of things you can sideboard against it, but I still believe that it’s just a waste to go for anything too narrow. Spellskite for example is too narrow, but more on that later. Melira is even more narrow and ugh, Fogs are at least a bit broader, and Wall of Shards is similarly broad. Thoughtsieze/Duress are also broad, but their broad applications tend to overlap more with good matchups like Control, Tron, and Scapeshift. I would prefer to avoid hand attack for now. Don’t waste slots on a matchup that will never go about 30-70. Jund
Andreas had some interesting perspective on the matchup, and I feel like I’m on board with believing this to be a matchup quite close to 50-50. I do really like my Celestial Purges, but overall I think it is important to not overboard in this MU. Leyline is really the most important card and you’ll get along fine with it as your only card. The reason I feel as though this MU is closer to 50-50 is that we have hands that can beat a Lili or beat discard, and there’s an awkward spot for them where they are dissuaded from mulling to hand disruption when we might have Leyline. Overall I think it is a matchup that is heavily dependant on what hands are kept, and one that is really not as bad as it is made out to be.
Now the rest are all pretty much just aggro, Affinity is the largest of them but I still think it’s silly to play Hurkyls when it’s just blank against any other matchup. The most important consideration here, is to look at how many counters/discard cards are really coming out of these decks: Bantdrazi has 3 counter in the SB and a couple Stony Silence, Affinity has 1-3 counters and 2 Thoughseize, Merfolk is going to have somewhere between 3-5 counters in their whole deck. I don’t understand why people play it up like these decks are running huge numbers of counters and interaction, they’re linear aggro decks with a very small reactive element. As such I will address them with the rest of the linear aggro decks
The Rest
Most of you SB in this meta really should be anti-aggro. That’s not a terribly insightful statement, but it is a very important one. Fogs are huge, Slaughter Pact is entirely reasonable. I used to think Wall of Shards was pretty underwhelming but after seeing the kind of work it can put in against the top decks I’m convinced it’s worth a slot. Removal spells like the Gut Shots and Lose Hope’s in Mario’s list and the Sudden Shocks in aeaddy97’s are strong against the smaller creatures in Affinity, Dredge and Infect but do little against Suicide Zoo, Bantdrazi, and Merfolk. Path to Exile used to be a relevant SB card in early modern, and I think it’s probably worth another look. Sideboard aside I think running 4 Unlife is also very important in this meta, as having a card MD that is so strong against Aggro is an advantage we should try to exploit.
Tl;Dr: Board minimally for good MU’s, I like Boseiju. Board heavily for Aggro, there are lots of options to consider.
Options
Sudden Shock, Spellskite (Wall of Shards), Hurkyl’s, Gut Shot, Lose Hope, Melira, Explosives, Slaughter Pact, Fogs, Sweepers, Path.
Sudden Shock
Good against small aggro, good against mirror. Costing two mana can be annoying, don’t know if it warrants a slot when you could just play 1 mana removal. This is better against Infect but like I said above I don’t like things that are narrow for Infect. Cute way of getting around this card with Lab Man on our side is Chromatic Sphere (It’s a mana ability so they can’t respond). Spellskite v Wall of Shards
Both are good against aggro on the basis of just being walls. Wall of Shards is much much bigger though. Spellskite ability is good against Infect and Burn and Suicide Zoo(kinda) but Infect is hopeless and Burn is good anyways. Wall of Shards hoses Suicide Zoo, is good against any sort of creature based aggro even big eldrazi, and can kill things that it blocks. It does mandate running Lab Man to get around the lifegain but almost everyone is running Labman main at this point anyway. Hurkyl’s
Narrow, very narrow. But on that same token once you’ve got a bunch of other anti-aggro hate running this as your 8th/9th/10th piece seems reasonable with Affinity being the second biggest deck in the meta. I’d definitely run multiples of Haze and other options first though. Gut Shot and Lose Hope
One damage isn’t a lot. But free one damage is nice, and one damage that scrys and kills through pump is also nice. These cards are unfortunately dead against bigger creatures like Eldrazi or Goyfs though. Melira
Hard lock with Unlife means you can’t die. Until someone just keeps in some removal and then you are sad. Also does nothing without Unlife which is awkward. Running super narrow cards is not the way to go. Explosives
The flexibility in this card is pretty awesome, and it’s still an entirely reasonable boardwipe. I’m very tempted to test a copy or two. Sweepers
Drown and Pyroclasm don’t kill big things and Supreme is slower than you’d like a lot of the time. When they’re good they’re really good, but perhaps they aren’t really good often enough. I’m thinking I’ll test Explosives before moving back to these. Slaughter Pact
Despite the fact that you can play around ‘Skite in other ways, the ease of just killing it with Pact feels really nice. As mentioned above being able to kill big creatures is also relevant when compared to smaller removal. If I only have 1 slot left I think this’ll be the card to fill it. Path
Unconditionally getting rid of a thing is pretty sweet, especially against something like Suicide Zoo where they run almost no basics. I think this card is really quite well positioned right now and I like it a bit more than Lose Hope overall since it hits the bigger creatures too. Fogs
Still good, there are still many matchups where they are heavily influenced by play/draw or the difference of one turn. Being able to manipulate that and pull off some pseudo Time Walking is awesome.
List Analysis and Impressions
aeaddy97
Very typical assessment of Spoils, but also worded well.
I like the way that Mikokoro was looked at here, and think that I need to reassess the card too. Andreas Ganz
A case of very good players playing SB cards that I personally disagree with. I'd be curious to see their impressions of some of the above options.
His Sideboarding though is very interesting, while a large amount of it makes sense I personally don’t like taking out Spoils against Tron. Though the MU is favourable it is considerably worse if we give them more time. Taking Unlife out against Nahiri seems a bit silly to me, as this is the MU where I feel like we have more time and can afford to board out Spoils. Unlife Lets us represent a threat with only 5 mana and can serve as a multiple-use Grace where we can AN on their endstep and then again on our turn. I really like Unlife in the matchup and am uncertain about boarding it out. Mario Augusto
Running 3 wincons in the 75 is a topic that I’m not sure whether I think it’s wasteful or safe. I do understand the reasoning behind it but that reasoning seems similar to worrying about losing the game to Spoils.
Shuffling vs No Shuffling seems pretty clear to me at this point. I like no shuffle because the stuff you’re putting on the bottom is best left there more often than not. Bottoming a LS/Simian/Land is definitely relevant to leave it there. Mystical Teachings is what makes me doubt it though, as the effect is so strong that it makes a compelling argument for shuffling (Fetch mana is also nice).
I have a lot of trouble sideboarding when i'm playing this deck... I always know what I want to board in, but what to take out is very hard. What do you gays typically take out? The only card that i feel comfortable in boarding out is Pact of Negation vs none control decks..
There've been 3 SB guides posted recently and this same question was asked just last page.
Hi Everyone, top 8'd a 31 man pptq in our LGS this past weekend, playing the 75 I mentioned on page 157. Lost top 8 to burn. My matches were as follows.
R1 win 2-0 Abzan coco
Won game 1 on turn 4 off turn 1 Bloom quickly. Didn't see the combo from him, just beaters then combo'd off in response to kitchen finks to ensure he's tapped down.
SB: - 1 Prism, 1 boseiju, 2 pact for 1 Slaughter pact, 2 seize, and 1 echoing truth.
Won game 2 on turn 4 again off turn 1 bloom with him on infinite life. He didn't have a mana dork so he was 1 mana/turn short of killing me.
RI win 2-0 Jund
Won on my turn 4 off spoils for ad naus on his eot for 16 to 18 life because I was 1 mana short to do it under grace.
SB: - 2 Prism, 1 lab man, 1 boseiju for 4 leyline of sanctity.
Mulled 7 hand with too much lands, 6 hand with no lands into 5 card hand with leyline, lands and a cantrip. We had a game play violation where my opponent drew a card while on the play. Judge ruling was a "vendilion clique" where I had him shuffle away liliana. Was able to draw into business and acceleration to win before he got a leyline.
R3 win 2-0 grixis delver
Drawn out game 1 where my opponent had a lot of counters but no clock. I eventually was able to draw/scry into 6 lands and a double grace, 1 Ad naus hand with ad naus on top. Attempted to combo on his eot to tap him out then won on my turn.
SB: - 2 prism, 1 lab man for 1 PoN and 2 seize
Game 2 was long as well as he didn't have a clock early. Was able to draw into boseiju and go off with bloom at 4 life after an 5/6 life spoils for grace.
R4 1-1 unintentional draw BTL scapeshift
With 3 players at 3-0, I was surprisingly paired down to a 2-0-1 player who needed to play this round. Won game 1 handily as he was slow to find his win. I spoiled for ad naus for 12 to 14 life in response to a scapeshift to tap him out with pact back up.
SB: - 4 Bloom for 1 Pon, 2 seize, 1 truth
Dragged out game 2 despite being hit by 2 Slaughter games on ad naus and PoN. He was again slow to find his win so I didn't concede yet given I still had lab man in for a spoils kill. He hit me with a scapeshift of upwards of 40 damage with unlife in play which 1 promptly just graced. We played draw go until he was able to surgically extract my graces then btl into clique and snap for some beats. He eventually found his cryptic to bounce my unlife at - 2 life just as time was called. We played game 3 with me needing just 1 more turn to win at turn 4.
R5 ID with Jund
Top 8 loss 0-2 burn
Was on the draw here. Lost game 1 to a spoils for grace at 8 life in response to a boros charm that tapped him out, needing 3 more life to get there. Not sure if it mattered if I spoiled 1 turn earlier. He had a guide out so I was trying to maximize getting deeper into the deck by having him give me lands. Oh well, it happens.
SB: - 2 Pon, 1 boseiju, 1 lab man, 1 dreadship Reef for 4 leyline and 1 truth.
Started with leyline with 3 lands 2 cantrips and unlife. He started with swiftspear then turn 2 revelry my leyline. Then played another swiftspear. And another revelry on unlife. Then won the next turn with atarka's command for lethal. He started with 2 revelry in hand as a foil to my good vs burn hand. Oh well, variance happens especially in modern. No big deal. Oddly enough, all top seeds lost in the top 8 with boggles losing to bantdrazi, jund losing to btl scapeshift and grixis delver losing to br vengeance.
Not sure if I could have played better to improve my chances but all in all my 75 was great and I felt like I couldn't lose a game all day. I wouldn't change anything for now as I don't feel like I need anything particularly new on my 75. 4 fogs are a must where I play since it's littered with infect, merfolk, and more recently the breakout deck of our local wmcq, bushwhacker zoo. I'd probably try testing a fourth unlife in place of the 2nd MD Lightning storm to see if it makes a difference in the aggressive match-ups though the 2nd storm saved me twice that day since 2 of the spoils wins ended up exiling a storm. I really like 2 storm MD especially today when the meta is fast and we are forced to spoils more to try and win earlier.
As always feedback is always welcome. More power to ad nauseam!
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3 Ethereal Haze
3 Collective Brutality
2 Disenchant
1 Pact of Negation
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
Echoing Truth, as it's just a catch-all. Also blood moon isn't that big of an issue with our mana rocks.
I'd also add a 2nd Lightning Storm(or Lab Maniac if you don't have 1 mainboard). Some matchups you just can win with Maniac, and you want two Storms so you don't exile 1 with Spoils.
I see people with 1 storm/maniac in the main, but never a 2nd storm in the SB and it doesn't make sense. Against decks like Jund/Abzan you aren't going to win with Maniac. With their discard sometimes taking a storm or you just exiling it with Spoils I always want 2 Storm/1 Maniac in my 75.
I thought this was true--about lab man against BGx. If they haven't blown it on a mana rock or a phyrexian unlife already, they probably don't have it. I won back to back games 2 and 3 this last weekend against a Jund opponent who named LS with pithing needle. He made me sweat like was going to blow the maniac with ANY removal game 2 (didn't have any pacts left in the deck game 2), and after he got burned by it the first time he pithing needled again and still didn't have removal (though this time I had a pact just in case of bolt/terminate). This is the first time I think ever in a year of playing the deck that I've actually been needled--but also the first time I took a lab man to a big event over conflagrate (which would have been a far less stressful win-con against BGx. It can even be discarded to liliana no sweat).
Thought of the Month:
I gave up from trying to require the 'i' on my name: SolesticIo
Thanks, I had found Bob's article, but Andreas' was a good read as well.
I just find curious there's no consensus about the sb past the typical slots (2 Pacts, 1 Boseiju, 2 Seizes, 4 Leyline): 3 solution spells (bounces of some sort usually), 3 spellskite, 3 fogs. What's the majority trend around here?
Thought of the Month:
I gave up from trying to require the 'i' on my name: SolesticIo
https://spellsnare.com/2016/08/01/my-ad-nauseam-list-and-analysis/
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/436395#paper
I just don't see what decks are a good matchup for us. Infect, Affinity, Bant Eldrazi, Grixis Delver are all bad matchups. Jund is a bad matchup. Suicide Zoo is a bad matchup.
The only decks we are good against are Jeskai Nahiri, Kiki-Chord, Burn/Zoo, Merfolk, Scapeshift, and Tron.
The only thing is the format is so proactive right now and I'd much rather be playing one of those decks than this.
I'd love other people's thoughts.
What is giving you trouble with Bant Eldrazi, Grixis? I'm still thinking of all the decks you listed that we're only a dog to infect. Everything else I'd put at 50/50. I'm having trouble with sui-zoo but I'm considering trying engineered explosives for it, which helps out against the other aggro lists too.
Normally I try and have a stony silence proof sideboard, but I've been feeling otherwise lately.
not sure if you're biased cause you want the deck to be better, but Bant and Grixis Delver are bad matchups.
Both decks put a fast clock on you and have counters. Bant can take cards with TKS, race you with Reality Smasher, plus have Stubborn Denial. Stony Silence is also rough.
Grixis Delver also puts a clock on you and backs it up with counters.
Bant isn't that unfavorable, but I still think its. 55-45 in there favor. Delver is probably closer to 60-40.
Take a break if you need to, playing other things is definitely good if you aren't enjoying AN.
EDIT: I'm going to probably end up writing a long one up soon, I also wish we could have more focused discussions sometimes....
The sb looks like:
1 Pact of Negation
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Thoughtseize
1 Boseiju
+ 6 flex slots which usually contain a mix of the following: Fog effect (Darkness or Ethereal Haze), Bounce effects (Hurkyl's Recall and Echoing Truth), and Spellskite.
After seeing a few guides, it seems to me there are many different views in how to approach each matchup. I can't even understand if someone is right or wrong, or if it's just a philosophy in how the players see the deck. For example, Andreas played 0 fogs, whereas Bob lists 0 spellskites and 0 Recalls (1 Truth), and Scapeshift84 above played 0 spellskite and 2+2 of the others.
Also, what players side out in each MU is quite interesting. Again, maybe it's how they see the deck operating, but here are a few examples:
Jund (4 Leyline)
Andreas: -2 Unlife, -2 Pact
Bob/Scapeshift84: -3 Prism, -3 Pact (brings 1 Unlife)
Q: To add or remove Unlifes?
D: I think Andreas' point is that it's decayable, so you're better off comboing with spells. Bob's argument is that Unlife gives you a shot to combo from the top of the deck against lili.
Infect (1 Pact, discard, fog/spellskite)
Andreas: -4 Unlife, -2 Sleight of Hand
Bob: -4 Lotus Bloom, -1 Unlife, -2 Reef
Scapeshift84: -3 Bloom, -3 Unlife
Q: What to take out first, Bloom or Unlife?
D: I'd say the second one.
Tron
Andreas: -3 Spoils, +1 Pact of Negation, +2 Thoughtseize
Bob: -3 Pact of Negation, +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Slaughter Pact, +1 Unlife
Scapeshift84: -2 Phyrexian Unlife, -1 Pact Of Negation, -1 Pentad Prism, +2 Thoughtseize +2 Hurkyl’s Recall
Q: Do you need spoils? To add or remove Pact of Negation? And Unlife?
D: Adreas' makes the point the MU is so good you don't need the risk to spoil your win (see what I did there?).
Thought of the Month:
I gave up from trying to require the 'i' on my name: SolesticIo
ok, you're saying he is right but aren't backing it up with any reason. I'd love to hear why you think Bant and Grixis Delver are good matchups.
Played that version for a while, lots of fun. Wouldn't consider it the best version currently because of how fast the meta is but the list has its merits against slower decks where you can find time to Glittering Wish for powerful cards like Supreme Verdict, Dromoka, or Fracturing Gust.
You gave anecdotal commentary, so my anecdotal commentary is that I'm 100-0 against Bantdrazi, and have a roughly 60-40 MU against Grixis Delver. Fortunately I don't believe these results to be perfectly indicative of how the matchup should play out because they're small-ish samples and they're only my personal experiences (The Grixis delver one is probably around 20 matches but the Bantdrazi one is only 4). As mentioned before I'm in the process of typing out a longer expression of my thoughts on the meta and our matchups but my general reasoning is this: Bantdrazi only has ~9 relevant cards in their 75 (4 TKS, 3 Counters, 2 Stony) They're a linear aggro deck and we're pretty good against linear aggro decks (Fogs, Unlife, Grace). All it takes to win a game against Grixis Delver is a decent hand with a Pact, they don't run too much hand disruption and so while the matchup is certainly not terrible (likely not 60-40) it is a bit coin-flip based.
If you need a break from the deck, take a break.
I think what this version has done for me is that it's taken out a bunch of fishing for stall cards and combo pieces. Usually I go for T1 Serum Visions, T2 Glittering Wish for Wargate, T3 Wargate X=0 for Lotus Bloom, then have the 6 mana to go off on turn 4. Otherwise, Wish for whatever combo piece I'm missing.
This is what I've been working with:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
3 Seachrome Coast
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
Getting there
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Angel's Grace
4 Phyrexian Unlife
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Bloom
4 Pentad Prism
4 Serum Visions
4 Glittering Wish
3 Bring to Light
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Conjurer's Bauble
1 Lightning Storm
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Holy Day
1 Conflagrate
1 Bring to Light
1 Detention Sphere
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Firespout
1 Slaughter Games
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wargate
1 Vexing Shusher
Went 4-0 and 3-1 with it last two times I played, but I'd attribute it more to catching the playgroup off guard with the list. Many of the players hadn't seen Glittering Wish before, and didn't seem to know what the deck did until it was too late.
Okay, I'm going to preface this with resources:
MTG Goldfish Metagame
Andreas Ganz
Mario Augusto
aeaddy97
So there's 3 lists I'm interested in looking at for now, because they bring up some interesting talking points and proofs of concept.
But first, some general metagame and matchup commentary.
As it stands today, the top 8 decks according to MTGGoldfish are Jund and 7 Aggro decks. After that we get into a slew of good matchups for us; Jeskai Nahiri, RG Tron, Living End, and Scapeshift. At this point we’ve covered every deck with >2% metagame share (except us/the mirror)and 53% of the total meta. The considerable chunk of remaining decks shouldn’t be ignored but for the most part they can be looked at like control decks that aren’t quite as good as Jeskai, midrange decks that aren’t quite as good as Jund, and so on. Notably in that group is one of our other considerably poorer matchups in Death and Taxes. However, there’s only so much I want to talk about in one post so I’ll be glazing over the latter half of the meta.
Let’s start with the good matchups: Jeskai Nahiri, RG Tron, Living End, and Scapeshift.
Jeskai Nahiri
Nahiri does make the control Match slightly less one-sided, but the fact remains that we are still quite well positioned against them. Instant speed combo and MD Pacts are still powerful, but more care needs to be exercised about giving them a window to play Nahiri. Boseiju still puts this matchup away solidly, and anything else is really overkill.
RG Tron
Sideboarding out Spoils is an interesting choice here, but more on that later. The only thing they can do is stick a T3 Karn, which despite the deck being able to do relatively consistently, doesn’t even guarantee a win. No list I’ve seen has a SB with any dedicated Tron hate, and I feel that this is a reasonable trend. Worldbreaker and the increase in MD Spellskites and SB Sudden Shocks is worrying.
Living End
Land destruction can be annoying, Ingot Chewer is a nuisance, and Slaughter games is kinda scary. Fortunately Slaughter Games isn’t overly common in these lists yet, so the matchup still ends up being fairly easy. Dredge being a relevant deck makes graveyard hate a bit more appealing but I don’t think it is truly warranted yet.
Scapeshift
Bring to Light is a huge card if they have Slaughter Games, but again it isn’t overly common. Leyline is still really good here, and we can put lots of pressure on them to make tapping out for a BTL much less appealing. Boseiju also does good things here.
So in summary, the only thing that I think makes enough of a difference in our good matchups is Boseiju, and maybe a Scorn/Truth to help against some of the Leyline of Sanctity’s that even Living End apparently can run? The less slots that get used on good matchups though the better, as we then have more slots for the bad or 50-50 matchups.
Out of the top 8 the two stand-out decks are Infect and Jund, for being a terrible matchup and the only non-aggro deck respectively.
Infect
There are plenty of things you can sideboard against it, but I still believe that it’s just a waste to go for anything too narrow. Spellskite for example is too narrow, but more on that later. Melira is even more narrow and ugh, Fogs are at least a bit broader, and Wall of Shards is similarly broad. Thoughtsieze/Duress are also broad, but their broad applications tend to overlap more with good matchups like Control, Tron, and Scapeshift. I would prefer to avoid hand attack for now. Don’t waste slots on a matchup that will never go about 30-70.
Jund
Andreas had some interesting perspective on the matchup, and I feel like I’m on board with believing this to be a matchup quite close to 50-50. I do really like my Celestial Purges, but overall I think it is important to not overboard in this MU. Leyline is really the most important card and you’ll get along fine with it as your only card. The reason I feel as though this MU is closer to 50-50 is that we have hands that can beat a Lili or beat discard, and there’s an awkward spot for them where they are dissuaded from mulling to hand disruption when we might have Leyline. Overall I think it is a matchup that is heavily dependant on what hands are kept, and one that is really not as bad as it is made out to be.
Now the rest are all pretty much just aggro, Affinity is the largest of them but I still think it’s silly to play Hurkyls when it’s just blank against any other matchup. The most important consideration here, is to look at how many counters/discard cards are really coming out of these decks: Bantdrazi has 3 counter in the SB and a couple Stony Silence, Affinity has 1-3 counters and 2 Thoughseize, Merfolk is going to have somewhere between 3-5 counters in their whole deck. I don’t understand why people play it up like these decks are running huge numbers of counters and interaction, they’re linear aggro decks with a very small reactive element. As such I will address them with the rest of the linear aggro decks
The Rest
Most of you SB in this meta really should be anti-aggro. That’s not a terribly insightful statement, but it is a very important one. Fogs are huge, Slaughter Pact is entirely reasonable. I used to think Wall of Shards was pretty underwhelming but after seeing the kind of work it can put in against the top decks I’m convinced it’s worth a slot. Removal spells like the Gut Shots and Lose Hope’s in Mario’s list and the Sudden Shocks in aeaddy97’s are strong against the smaller creatures in Affinity, Dredge and Infect but do little against Suicide Zoo, Bantdrazi, and Merfolk. Path to Exile used to be a relevant SB card in early modern, and I think it’s probably worth another look. Sideboard aside I think running 4 Unlife is also very important in this meta, as having a card MD that is so strong against Aggro is an advantage we should try to exploit.
Tl;Dr: Board minimally for good MU’s, I like Boseiju. Board heavily for Aggro, there are lots of options to consider.
Options
Sudden Shock, Spellskite (Wall of Shards), Hurkyl’s, Gut Shot, Lose Hope, Melira, Explosives, Slaughter Pact, Fogs, Sweepers, Path.
Sudden Shock
Good against small aggro, good against mirror. Costing two mana can be annoying, don’t know if it warrants a slot when you could just play 1 mana removal. This is better against Infect but like I said above I don’t like things that are narrow for Infect. Cute way of getting around this card with Lab Man on our side is Chromatic Sphere (It’s a mana ability so they can’t respond).
Spellskite v Wall of Shards
Both are good against aggro on the basis of just being walls. Wall of Shards is much much bigger though. Spellskite ability is good against Infect and Burn and Suicide Zoo(kinda) but Infect is hopeless and Burn is good anyways. Wall of Shards hoses Suicide Zoo, is good against any sort of creature based aggro even big eldrazi, and can kill things that it blocks. It does mandate running Lab Man to get around the lifegain but almost everyone is running Labman main at this point anyway.
Hurkyl’s
Narrow, very narrow. But on that same token once you’ve got a bunch of other anti-aggro hate running this as your 8th/9th/10th piece seems reasonable with Affinity being the second biggest deck in the meta. I’d definitely run multiples of Haze and other options first though.
Gut Shot and Lose Hope
One damage isn’t a lot. But free one damage is nice, and one damage that scrys and kills through pump is also nice. These cards are unfortunately dead against bigger creatures like Eldrazi or Goyfs though.
Melira
Hard lock with Unlife means you can’t die. Until someone just keeps in some removal and then you are sad. Also does nothing without Unlife which is awkward. Running super narrow cards is not the way to go.
Explosives
The flexibility in this card is pretty awesome, and it’s still an entirely reasonable boardwipe. I’m very tempted to test a copy or two.
Sweepers
Drown and Pyroclasm don’t kill big things and Supreme is slower than you’d like a lot of the time. When they’re good they’re really good, but perhaps they aren’t really good often enough. I’m thinking I’ll test Explosives before moving back to these.
Slaughter Pact
Despite the fact that you can play around ‘Skite in other ways, the ease of just killing it with Pact feels really nice. As mentioned above being able to kill big creatures is also relevant when compared to smaller removal. If I only have 1 slot left I think this’ll be the card to fill it.
Path
Unconditionally getting rid of a thing is pretty sweet, especially against something like Suicide Zoo where they run almost no basics. I think this card is really quite well positioned right now and I like it a bit more than Lose Hope overall since it hits the bigger creatures too.
Fogs
Still good, there are still many matchups where they are heavily influenced by play/draw or the difference of one turn. Being able to manipulate that and pull off some pseudo Time Walking is awesome.
List Analysis and Impressions
aeaddy97
Very typical assessment of Spoils, but also worded well.
I like the way that Mikokoro was looked at here, and think that I need to reassess the card too.
Andreas Ganz
A case of very good players playing SB cards that I personally disagree with. I'd be curious to see their impressions of some of the above options.
His Sideboarding though is very interesting, while a large amount of it makes sense I personally don’t like taking out Spoils against Tron. Though the MU is favourable it is considerably worse if we give them more time. Taking Unlife out against Nahiri seems a bit silly to me, as this is the MU where I feel like we have more time and can afford to board out Spoils. Unlife Lets us represent a threat with only 5 mana and can serve as a multiple-use Grace where we can AN on their endstep and then again on our turn. I really like Unlife in the matchup and am uncertain about boarding it out.
Mario Augusto
Running 3 wincons in the 75 is a topic that I’m not sure whether I think it’s wasteful or safe. I do understand the reasoning behind it but that reasoning seems similar to worrying about losing the game to Spoils.
Shuffling vs No Shuffling seems pretty clear to me at this point. I like no shuffle because the stuff you’re putting on the bottom is best left there more often than not. Bottoming a LS/Simian/Land is definitely relevant to leave it there. Mystical Teachings is what makes me doubt it though, as the effect is so strong that it makes a compelling argument for shuffling (Fetch mana is also nice).
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/ad-nauseam-deck-guide/
http://www.blackborder.com/q/node/19785
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/tier-2-modern/221735-ad-nauseam?comment=4003
R1 win 2-0 Abzan coco
Won game 1 on turn 4 off turn 1 Bloom quickly. Didn't see the combo from him, just beaters then combo'd off in response to kitchen finks to ensure he's tapped down.
SB: - 1 Prism, 1 boseiju, 2 pact for 1 Slaughter pact, 2 seize, and 1 echoing truth.
Won game 2 on turn 4 again off turn 1 bloom with him on infinite life. He didn't have a mana dork so he was 1 mana/turn short of killing me.
RI win 2-0 Jund
Won on my turn 4 off spoils for ad naus on his eot for 16 to 18 life because I was 1 mana short to do it under grace.
SB: - 2 Prism, 1 lab man, 1 boseiju for 4 leyline of sanctity.
Mulled 7 hand with too much lands, 6 hand with no lands into 5 card hand with leyline, lands and a cantrip. We had a game play violation where my opponent drew a card while on the play. Judge ruling was a "vendilion clique" where I had him shuffle away liliana. Was able to draw into business and acceleration to win before he got a leyline.
R3 win 2-0 grixis delver
Drawn out game 1 where my opponent had a lot of counters but no clock. I eventually was able to draw/scry into 6 lands and a double grace, 1 Ad naus hand with ad naus on top. Attempted to combo on his eot to tap him out then won on my turn.
SB: - 2 prism, 1 lab man for 1 PoN and 2 seize
Game 2 was long as well as he didn't have a clock early. Was able to draw into boseiju and go off with bloom at 4 life after an 5/6 life spoils for grace.
R4 1-1 unintentional draw BTL scapeshift
With 3 players at 3-0, I was surprisingly paired down to a 2-0-1 player who needed to play this round. Won game 1 handily as he was slow to find his win. I spoiled for ad naus for 12 to 14 life in response to a scapeshift to tap him out with pact back up.
SB: - 4 Bloom for 1 Pon, 2 seize, 1 truth
Dragged out game 2 despite being hit by 2 Slaughter games on ad naus and PoN. He was again slow to find his win so I didn't concede yet given I still had lab man in for a spoils kill. He hit me with a scapeshift of upwards of 40 damage with unlife in play which 1 promptly just graced. We played draw go until he was able to surgically extract my graces then btl into clique and snap for some beats. He eventually found his cryptic to bounce my unlife at - 2 life just as time was called. We played game 3 with me needing just 1 more turn to win at turn 4.
R5 ID with Jund
Top 8 loss 0-2 burn
Was on the draw here. Lost game 1 to a spoils for grace at 8 life in response to a boros charm that tapped him out, needing 3 more life to get there. Not sure if it mattered if I spoiled 1 turn earlier. He had a guide out so I was trying to maximize getting deeper into the deck by having him give me lands. Oh well, it happens.
SB: - 2 Pon, 1 boseiju, 1 lab man, 1 dreadship Reef for 4 leyline and 1 truth.
Started with leyline with 3 lands 2 cantrips and unlife. He started with swiftspear then turn 2 revelry my leyline. Then played another swiftspear. And another revelry on unlife. Then won the next turn with atarka's command for lethal. He started with 2 revelry in hand as a foil to my good vs burn hand. Oh well, variance happens especially in modern. No big deal. Oddly enough, all top seeds lost in the top 8 with boggles losing to bantdrazi, jund losing to btl scapeshift and grixis delver losing to br vengeance.
Not sure if I could have played better to improve my chances but all in all my 75 was great and I felt like I couldn't lose a game all day. I wouldn't change anything for now as I don't feel like I need anything particularly new on my 75. 4 fogs are a must where I play since it's littered with infect, merfolk, and more recently the breakout deck of our local wmcq, bushwhacker zoo. I'd probably try testing a fourth unlife in place of the 2nd MD Lightning storm to see if it makes a difference in the aggressive match-ups though the 2nd storm saved me twice that day since 2 of the spoils wins ended up exiling a storm. I really like 2 storm MD especially today when the meta is fast and we are forced to spoils more to try and win earlier.
As always feedback is always welcome. More power to ad nauseam!