There is a lot of talk right now of SSG getting a ban. Some people say it's an essential four-of in our deck (I only run 3x) but what do you guys think if it gets banned?
I am going to be a mess if it gets banned, but it is that good. I say 4 of always. It quite a lot better in other decks though, which is why it may get ban hammered.
If it does happen, it's going to hurt us a lot as it provided a lot of power for the list. It can be replaced by more cyclers but it's going to inherently make your deck that much slower. It also makes land destruction much worse because you cannot threaten a turn 2 fulminator. We also may have to up the land count at least a few to compensate. The deck will have a better late game, but thats not what it needs.
The only upside is that the other decks a ban would hurt get hurt much more than us. I can imagine belcher style stuff just not existing after a ban, so even if our decks powerlevel goes down the formats power goes down and we will still have game against any creature based deck, its just burn becomes SO MUCH worse for us.
Why would it get a ban? Just perusing modernnexus and mtggoldfish, the first deck on the tier list that actually plays SSG is ad naus. The deck itself is a solid tier 2 representing about 2% of the overall metagame, i'd be hardpress to call for a ban based on this.
While fast mana can be tricky to keep around as it enables combo decks, the meta seems very much equipped to deal with them and historically the decks that abuse the fast mana are very much glass cannon style decks.
I mean I guess Wizards could ban SSG to shake up the meta but that doesn't make sense because if they wanted to shake up the meta, they'd ban something in the top tier decks.
But if it somehow did get the ban, we'd just play more shriekmaw mainboard to give us some element of interaction against fast aggro decks that used to be dealt with an SSG enabled early living end.
The fear with any fast mana is of course combo. SSG can easily show up in any storm style deck, but also has place in things like Pyromancer, Breach, Grishoalbrand, or tinfins. The issue with it is not that there is anything wrong with it right now, but that with any fast free mana when things go wrong they tend to go wrong out of control.
SSG as a free mana in a format that is heavily limited to the 1 mana a turn rule can literally be the equivalent of a timewalk in some cases. It's a free 1 turn accelerant, which has a fair cost (-1 card) if you get to the subsequent turns, but often you don't because the format is pretty fast.
I mean I hate to say it because I love playing it, but it is a broken card. Its been tame up until now because the format has not be able to utilize it, but in theory it enables so much for so little, I would not be surprised to see a ban at all.
Why would it get a ban? Just perusing modernnexus and mtggoldfish, the first deck on the tier list that actually plays SSG is ad naus. The deck itself is a solid tier 2 representing about 2% of the overall metagame, i'd be hardpress to call for a ban based on this.
This was my thought exactly. There's just nothing in the meta that warrants attention to SSG.
I think the talk, then, is mostly centered around the class of effects (fast mana) rather than SSG itself, i.e. WotC has banned other fast mana effects therefore they will ban SSG. But then it seems that they would be equally likely to ban any card with Phyrexian mana or any card with the Dredge mechanic as they would SSG. I just don't see it happening absent an over-performing deck that abuses it.
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Its been tame up until now because the format has not be able to utilize it, but in theory it enables so much for so little, I would not be surprised to see a ban at all.
It's not that the format wasn't able to utilize it, it was because answers existed and once the initial hype/shock factor wore off, people starting prepping to see those cards. I'd wager that as long as targeted discard/counterspells/surgical effects exist in modern, SSG and mox opal are fine because while they might enable combo decks, they will not make them resilient.
I think the talk, then, is mostly centered around the class of effects (fast mana) rather than SSG itself, i.e. WotC has banned other fast mana effects therefore they will ban SSG. But then it seems that they would be equally likely to ban any card with Phyrexian mana or any card with the Dredge mechanic as they would SSG. I just don't see it happening absent an over-performing deck that abuses it.
I know, I just think that the people in favor of banning all fast mana don't understand that there are differences between the various fast mana cards. Mox opal and SSG are fine and even healthy for the format i'd argue, seething song is not.
I know, I just think that the people in favor of banning all fast mana don't understand that there are differences between the various mana cards. Mox opal and SSG are fine and even healthy for the format i'd argue, seething song is not.
We are on the same page. My quote in your post is in response to my own somewhat rhetorical question from earlier.
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It's not that the format wasn't able to utilize it, it was because answers existed and once the initial hype/shock factor wore off, people starting prepping to see those cards. I'd wager that as long as targeted discard/counterspells/surgical effects exist in modern, SSG and mox opal are fine because while they might enable combo decks, they will not make them resilient.
This format still does not have an answer for a consistent T1 win. Vintage has Force of Will and Mental Misstep, modern has Disrupting Shoal (maybe) if it comes down to it.
I can easily imagine that any T1 combo that could arise would be because of fast mana enabled by SSG, which has a lot of unique factors - 0 mana, not cast and not counterable, I don't think it can be stifled, etc. Compared to other rituals in red it is kinda the best, and a lot of the reason seething song was so good was in part because of SSG helping to make it happen.Opal is good too, but a little restrictive when compared, and Chrome is already banned.
It is not impossible to imagine that with enough time and enough sets we actually will be able to grapeshot for 20 turn one. Technically right now SSG enables some kinda dirty t2 wins in bushwacker decks (Fetch, SSG, Hidden Herbalists, Burning Tribe, Bushwacker is 9 damage t1 with six on board.) They are not consistently T2 yet, but in the future that could change.
Just as a reminder, let's try to keep ban talk to a minimal in threads outside of the State of the Meta. While discussing potential bans to this deck specifically in this thread is okay in certain contexts, let's not let it derail the thread to the point where we are debating what is and is not safe in the format.
*Now back to your regularly scheduled cycling*
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How do you guys feel about Desert Cerodon? I cut all of the 2 mana cyclers for the playset as well as an architects of will (I run the SSG version so no land cyclers in the deck)
It seems very strong giving us a higher number of 1 mana cyclers and letting us churn through our deck quicker (I have 19 1 mana cyclers in my deck including street wraith)
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Modern Decks: C: Affinity, WUB: Esper Draw-Go UR: Blood Moon Delver, UBR: Grixis Control/Delver GWUR: Allies, UBR: Cruel Control RGB: Living End, GWB: Wilt-Leaf Abzan GU: Infect, GWR: Naya Liege WU: Emeria Control
I myself completely cut SSG. The only matchups where it's really crucial are Bushwacker Zoo and Infect, especially on the draw. Otherwise it's mostly decent (for example against blue control), but I replaced my 3 SSG with 2 lands and a 1 mana cycler. SSG is also really bad against Discard decks. I also cut all of the flex spots, I now run no Faeries, Avalanche Riders, or Shriekmaw in my Maindeck, and went down to 2 Beast Within. So basically, my deck is now 16 1-mana cyclers, 4 Wraiths, 1 Recluse, 2 Archfiend, 2 Beast Within, 4 Mages, 11 combo pieces and 20 lands.
Faeries is less needed, one of its appeal being that it stops tarmogoyfs from coming back in the BGx matchup. Now that we have 8 bigger creatures, we can brawl with Tarmo without much problem. It was also very good in the matchups where Archfiend should shine, for example Affinity or Abzan Coco.
Shriekmaw never felt necesserary, and Avalanche Rider was cool, but felt cuttable.
I might go down on the number of cycler after some testing, but I want to see if the added consistency will make the deck better. Maybe I can afford a 3rd Archfiend in the maindeck instead of one of the remaining Minotaurs or Architects. 20 lands plus a Recluse might also be 1 too much now that we have 20 cheap cyclers.
Anyone mention Travis Woo's San Antonio videos that have been coming out the last few weeks on Youtube "Travis Wizard?" No SSG, 4 maindeck leylines, 4 grove of the burnwillows. I've been playing something close to his list and beating Death's Shadow a lot. He gives a fair amount of tips and tricks as well for that matchup and a few others.
so a few years back i had living end built and with the new set im looking to build it again, can anyone help me with some decklists to start with by chance?
So I have spent a lot of time trying to figure out where moon LE goes after Amonkhet is released. I think not playing Archfiend in any iteration might be a mistake. For simplicity of mana, I have only chosen creatures that cycle for red or colorless. I have not decided whether SSG is a must in the deck, but it definitely makes the moon version better; however, I could easily see playing without it and going up on the number of Shriekmaw main from 0 to 2 and adding another land cycler. I think even though we play moon, 3-4 Grove is best right now since Death Shadow is such a prevalent deck. I also don't think we can afford to drop Faerie Macabre at least in the next few weeks since people tend to play more affinity when the format is new and its pretty good against people trying to kill you with Viscera Seer and nabs opposing Street Wraith.
Here is the list I think I have settled on. I decided I am going to experiment with Dead//Gone since rules changes and tapping a single red to kill their mana dork or scooze seems strong, not to mention we can kill creatures shriekmaw couldn't - although the downside is shriekmaw actually killed our opponent. The other thing I like about this card is it can be an effective D. Dread and making one of their creatures not able to block so you can alpha them or even bounce their guy they just cheated into play (emrakul aside). I'll just be testing it so we will see how it goes - Hopefully I wont have to use it on many Eidolons since taking 2 when we used to take nothing b/c Shriekmaw is awesome.
Went 3-0-1 in a tourney last night with a list that's all-in on land hate (2x Blood Moon, 2x Avalanche Riders, and 4x Fulminators in the main). I've also been running Domri Rade as a fun-of, but I never saw him last night.
I'm thinking for my main building of going all in LD too. What do you think abSBB 1-2 copies Boom // Bust main or sbb starting tomorrow with the split change?
I've never played the card, so take this with a grain of salt:
Boom seems interesting. Good, even. Boom in multiples probably necessitates playing more lands than LE lists typically do--so between adding lands and new cards, I'd be curious to see what comes out--but it's worth exploring.
I'm not sure how to rate Bust. It's a huge hoser following a resolved LE, but it's rather counterintuitive when you're curving up toward it with spot removal on enemy lands via Fulminator and Riders. I'm not condfident that this is what we want in context of our usual LD plan. As a SB option in place of the usual plan, on the other hand, it seems more promising (but still obviously worse than Fulminator/Riders/Beast Within/Blood Moon).
My plan is to probably never play Bust.
A potential play would be something like
Turn 1: land - cycle
Turn 2: land - cycle
Turn 3: land - Fulminator (LD)
Turn 4: Fetch land - depending on tempo either prepare for LE or play Avalanche Riders
- Don't Fetch -
Turn 5: Boom target Fetch Land, fetch in response , then LE Returning LD creatures.
Result - up to 5 lands including 3 basics destroyed
Anyone mention Travis Woo's San Antonio videos that have been coming out the last few weeks on Youtube "Travis Wizard?" No SSG, 4 maindeck leylines, 4 grove of the burnwillows. I've been playing something close to his list and beating Death's Shadow a lot. He gives a fair amount of tips and tricks as well for that matchup and a few others.
Just because it took me a bit of hunting to find the clip, here it is for anyone interested.
And here's the Decklist (all credit to Travis Woo of course:
For simplicity of mana, I have only chosen creatures that cycle for red or colorless.
I think you're in the majority here (for those staying in Jund colors, anyway), but I'm going to be the contrarian and stake my money on the cycles-for-black-or-colorless dudes (with an exception for Cerodon). Why?
1) It opens up Horror and Architects. Horror's power should be obvious, and while Architects certainly have their downsides (no hardcasting them, toughness 3), their EtB trigger is still a game winner. I like them as a 2-of.
2) It's easier to find red with a black-centric mana base than the reverse thanks to Simian Spirit Guide.
3) By incentivizing the fetching of Swamps early on, we're less likely to be locked out of an important color by Blood Moon, be it friendly or foe.
@ZombieSleeve, that's an ambitious list. I like your changes, but the TWoo prototype seems very slow to me. It's hard to see it faring well against most of Modern's faster decks. What am I missing?
I think you're in the majority here (for those staying in Jund colors, anyway), but I'm going to be the contrarian and stake my money on the cycles-for-black-or-colorless dudes (with an exception for Cerodon). Why?
I debated this list as well for some time and have decided that I like it less than the mixed b/r or the straight red due to the fact that it makes playing Grove of the Burnwillows somewhat worse, and this is a card I think we need to be running 3-4 of atm
I am going to be a mess if it gets banned, but it is that good. I say 4 of always. It quite a lot better in other decks though, which is why it may get ban hammered.
If it does happen, it's going to hurt us a lot as it provided a lot of power for the list. It can be replaced by more cyclers but it's going to inherently make your deck that much slower. It also makes land destruction much worse because you cannot threaten a turn 2 fulminator. We also may have to up the land count at least a few to compensate. The deck will have a better late game, but thats not what it needs.
The only upside is that the other decks a ban would hurt get hurt much more than us. I can imagine belcher style stuff just not existing after a ban, so even if our decks powerlevel goes down the formats power goes down and we will still have game against any creature based deck, its just burn becomes SO MUCH worse for us.
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Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
While fast mana can be tricky to keep around as it enables combo decks, the meta seems very much equipped to deal with them and historically the decks that abuse the fast mana are very much glass cannon style decks.
I mean I guess Wizards could ban SSG to shake up the meta but that doesn't make sense because if they wanted to shake up the meta, they'd ban something in the top tier decks.
But if it somehow did get the ban, we'd just play more shriekmaw mainboard to give us some element of interaction against fast aggro decks that used to be dealt with an SSG enabled early living end.
SSG as a free mana in a format that is heavily limited to the 1 mana a turn rule can literally be the equivalent of a timewalk in some cases. It's a free 1 turn accelerant, which has a fair cost (-1 card) if you get to the subsequent turns, but often you don't because the format is pretty fast.
I mean I hate to say it because I love playing it, but it is a broken card. Its been tame up until now because the format has not be able to utilize it, but in theory it enables so much for so little, I would not be surprised to see a ban at all.
Http://www.fantasticneighborhood.com/
Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
This was my thought exactly. There's just nothing in the meta that warrants attention to SSG.
I think the talk, then, is mostly centered around the class of effects (fast mana) rather than SSG itself, i.e. WotC has banned other fast mana effects therefore they will ban SSG. But then it seems that they would be equally likely to ban any card with Phyrexian mana or any card with the Dredge mechanic as they would SSG. I just don't see it happening absent an over-performing deck that abuses it.
Modern: GW Elves; Living End
Pauper: Stompy; RW Tokens
Beer: Miller High Life
It's not that the format wasn't able to utilize it, it was because answers existed and once the initial hype/shock factor wore off, people starting prepping to see those cards. I'd wager that as long as targeted discard/counterspells/surgical effects exist in modern, SSG and mox opal are fine because while they might enable combo decks, they will not make them resilient.
I know, I just think that the people in favor of banning all fast mana don't understand that there are differences between the various fast mana cards. Mox opal and SSG are fine and even healthy for the format i'd argue, seething song is not.
We are on the same page. My quote in your post is in response to my own somewhat rhetorical question from earlier.
Modern: GW Elves; Living End
Pauper: Stompy; RW Tokens
Beer: Miller High Life
This format still does not have an answer for a consistent T1 win. Vintage has Force of Will and Mental Misstep, modern has Disrupting Shoal (maybe) if it comes down to it.
I can easily imagine that any T1 combo that could arise would be because of fast mana enabled by SSG, which has a lot of unique factors - 0 mana, not cast and not counterable, I don't think it can be stifled, etc. Compared to other rituals in red it is kinda the best, and a lot of the reason seething song was so good was in part because of SSG helping to make it happen.Opal is good too, but a little restrictive when compared, and Chrome is already banned.
It is not impossible to imagine that with enough time and enough sets we actually will be able to grapeshot for 20 turn one. Technically right now SSG enables some kinda dirty t2 wins in bushwacker decks (Fetch, SSG, Hidden Herbalists, Burning Tribe, Bushwacker is 9 damage t1 with six on board.) They are not consistently T2 yet, but in the future that could change.
Http://www.fantasticneighborhood.com/
Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
*Now back to your regularly scheduled cycling*
FWIW, I am on the wrong side of variance lately too.
Modern: GW Elves; Living End
Pauper: Stompy; RW Tokens
Beer: Miller High Life
It seems very strong giving us a higher number of 1 mana cyclers and letting us churn through our deck quicker (I have 19 1 mana cyclers in my deck including street wraith)
C: Affinity, WUB: Esper Draw-Go
UR: Blood Moon Delver, UBR: Grixis Control/Delver
GWUR: Allies, UBR: Cruel Control
RGB: Living End, GWB: Wilt-Leaf Abzan
GU: Infect, GWR: Naya Liege
WU: Emeria Control
Faeries is less needed, one of its appeal being that it stops tarmogoyfs from coming back in the BGx matchup. Now that we have 8 bigger creatures, we can brawl with Tarmo without much problem. It was also very good in the matchups where Archfiend should shine, for example Affinity or Abzan Coco.
Shriekmaw never felt necesserary, and Avalanche Rider was cool, but felt cuttable.
I might go down on the number of cycler after some testing, but I want to see if the added consistency will make the deck better. Maybe I can afford a 3rd Archfiend in the maindeck instead of one of the remaining Minotaurs or Architects. 20 lands plus a Recluse might also be 1 too much now that we have 20 cheap cyclers.
Here is the list I think I have settled on. I decided I am going to experiment with Dead//Gone since rules changes and tapping a single red to kill their mana dork or scooze seems strong, not to mention we can kill creatures shriekmaw couldn't - although the downside is shriekmaw actually killed our opponent. The other thing I like about this card is it can be an effective D. Dread and making one of their creatures not able to block so you can alpha them or even bounce their guy they just cheated into play (emrakul aside). I'll just be testing it so we will see how it goes - Hopefully I wont have to use it on many Eidolons since taking 2 when we used to take nothing b/c Shriekmaw is awesome.
4 Street Wraith
4 Monstrous Carabid
4 Desert Cerodon
2 Avalanche Riders
4 Fulminator Mage
3 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Twisted Abomination
1 Pale Recluse
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Archfiend of Ifnir
2 Blood Moon
3 Living End
4 Violent Outburst
3 Demonic Dread
1 Kari Zev's Expertise
2 Beast Within
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Beast Within
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Dead // Gone
2 Ricochet Trap
3 Pulse of Murasa
4 Ingot Chewer
My plan is to probably never play Bust.
A potential play would be something like
Turn 1: land - cycle
Turn 2: land - cycle
Turn 3: land - Fulminator (LD)
Turn 4: Fetch land - depending on tempo either prepare for LE or play Avalanche Riders
- Don't Fetch -
Turn 5: Boom target Fetch Land, fetch in response , then LE Returning LD creatures.
Result - up to 5 lands including 3 basics destroyed
Just because it took me a bit of hunting to find the clip, here it is for anyone interested.
And here's the Decklist (all credit to Travis Woo of course:
1 Blood Crypt
1 Forest
1 Godless Shrine
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Architects of Will
3 Captured Sunlight
4 Deadshot Minotaur
4 Demonic Dread
3 Jungle Weaver
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Living End
4 Monstrous Carabid
3 Pale Recluse
4 Street Wraith
3 Twisted Abomination
4 Violent Outburst
2 Blood Moon
1 Captured Sunlight
4 Fulminator Mage
3 Ingot Chewer
1 Leyline of the Void
3 Shriekmaw
1 Blood Crypt
1 Forest
1 Godless Shrine
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Archfiend of Ifnir
3 Architects of Will
3 Captured Sunlight
4 Demonic Dread
3 Desert Cerodon
4 Horror of the Broken Lands
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Living End
4 Monstrous Carabid
3 Pale Recluse
4 Street Wraith
4 Violent Outburst
2 Blood Moon
1 Captured Sunlight
4 Fulminator Mage
3 Ingot Chewer
1 Leyline of the Void
3 Shriekmaw
I think you're in the majority here (for those staying in Jund colors, anyway), but I'm going to be the contrarian and stake my money on the cycles-for-black-or-colorless dudes (with an exception for Cerodon). Why?
1) It opens up Horror and Architects. Horror's power should be obvious, and while Architects certainly have their downsides (no hardcasting them, toughness 3), their EtB trigger is still a game winner. I like them as a 2-of.
2) It's easier to find red with a black-centric mana base than the reverse thanks to Simian Spirit Guide.
3) By incentivizing the fetching of Swamps early on, we're less likely to be locked out of an important color by Blood Moon, be it friendly or foe.
@ZombieSleeve, that's an ambitious list. I like your changes, but the TWoo prototype seems very slow to me. It's hard to see it faring well against most of Modern's faster decks. What am I missing?
I debated this list as well for some time and have decided that I like it less than the mixed b/r or the straight red due to the fact that it makes playing Grove of the Burnwillows somewhat worse, and this is a card I think we need to be running 3-4 of atm