4 beast within main seems excessive since at some point you would rather draw another card especially in aggro matchup. i think 3 is the magic number. currently packing 2 beast within and 1 kolaghan's command in main.
horror of the broken lands is awkward sometimes but the additional power from cycling sometimes gets you there. there are situation when the opponent choose to kill desert cerodon only to get squashed by oversized horror. plus unlike the old man monstrous carabid, horror can block if necessary so that is a plus.
18-19 land is enough since simian spirit guide can be counted as a land. most deck packs 3 of the noble primate and most time we only need 3 mana to go off so safe to assume 21 mana source is enough most of the time.
I disagree with almost everything you are saying here.
1 - I would almost always rather have 4 beasts mainboard and side them out in an unknown meta, but even in a known meta I find that 4 is ideal. There is rarely a game where I do not want one in my hand, even against things like zoo.
2 - The situations where horror is well positioned come up far less often than the situations where I want to be able to cycle as much as I can and use up all my mana. It is not that it cannot be a good card, its just that I don't think the format is positioned as such and its better to have your manabase be as close to perfect as possible.
3 - Run 4 Guides. Games where I get 2 are almost always blowouts because they basically timewalk your opponent. I have had plenty of games where I was able to fulminator on 2 and then living end with 3-4 big dudes in my bin on turn 3 because I had 2 SSGs. It is literally backbreaking and the card disadvantage really should not matter for what this deck is doing.
Horror is best against Uxx decks. You can commit a single threat to board and he represents lethal. He’s also one of the best ways to end a combo opponent (storm, valakut) in multiples
4 Beast Within is not where you want to be, idk how long you’ve played the 4th but a hand of 2 land, SSG, 2 Beast Within, cycler, cascade spell is just abysmal. Especially in the 18 land version that most of us play. You’re not cascading optimally because they aren’t creatures, you’re taking extra damage, and if you don’t find more checkers then you’re hand is basically a forced board wipe on t4.
I’m back to 2 Beast Within 1 Kolaghans Command, which often reclaims a Fulminator mage while making them discard a card or shooting a hatebear/planeswalker.
Very little sound logic for the 4th Beast Within. Our deck is great, I also think it’s one of the best in the format and I’ve been jamming it twice a week plus premier events since June.
On another note: I tried the GPOKC list last week for TNM and FNM, I absolutely hated Archfiend just as much as I thought I would. In the games he was good, we were already favored — and in the games he was bad, he was miserable (storm, valakut, lantern, et al). He shores up with hedge points against Affinity, but that’s the only deck — id rather stay streamlined MB and have the 4 Ingot chewer in my SB for the Affinity MU.
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All of my successful runs with this deck, in very contrasting metas since the dawn of the format and even before it when extended was a thing, directly conflict with what you are saying. Now I do believe we are talking about the difference between marginal win percentages when you get a large enough sample size, and I assume that decks that run 3 beasts mainboard are also just running an addition cycler in place of the 4th, which shores up the numbers even closer since you on average see more cards. That additional cycler may also very well be Horror, if only because there are only so many viable 1 mana cyclers.
That being said, I very rarely have ever had a game where if I drew into a 3rd Beast it was either not welcome or actively bad. The first 2 are almost always good as you can go for the land denial strategy, and the 3rd one, while at that point is often superfluous, is often just a card stranded in your hand that does not matter because you comboed off. Living end often ends games with extra cascades or drawn LEs in hand.
There will be metas where the 4th beast is bad, in which case it will get boarded out game 2, but I feel as if you need to specifically know the breakdown of that meta to make that call, where as most larger tournament metas are somewhat unknown when you enter them. If they were known you would also know if LE was the deck you should be rocking in the first place. There will also be metas and match ups where all 4 fulminator mages are absolute garbage, but no one is advocating to remove those.
I do wholeheartedly agree with Archfiend being just subpar. The bar to entry for any 2 mana cycler since the release of Amonkhet is staggeringly high, and at this point the only one I use at all is Pale Recluse which is more for fixing than anything, and is typically the first thing I consider cutting. I've yet to see hollow one perform for this list, though I imagine a scenario in the future where it could be a divergent or transformitive sideboard strategy.
Let’s run through some MUs real quickly, and determine from there.
Deaths Shadow: operates fine on 1-2 lands, will already have a threat deployed by the time we start attacking their mana in earnest, plays 7-12 cantrips to find even more lands. (Not good)
Eldrazi Tron: ironically, land denial is pretty subpar against them because they play so many. We spend our turn destroying a land, they play another one and jam a threat. We destroy a land, they replace it. We also have to focus our Beast Within on their Chalices, so that’s moot anyway. (Not good)
Burn: I think we can all agree it’s bad here
UWx: really good here, as I said before it’s the only MU i want the full set of Beast Within against
Lantern: they play mana rocks and have several other permanents we’d rather be destroying. They also have an extremely low mana curve. (Not good)
Storm: yea, if you’re taking the turn off to nuke a land, you aren’t winning this game. Storm needs 2 lands to win the game. (Not good)
Dredge: attacking their lands is fine, a pretty fair strategy actually, but again... taking the turn off to nuke a land, not the way to beat a deck that puts a crap ton of power into play on repeat (Not good)
Valakut: hitting the 6th mountain in response to valakut triggers is cute, and if they aren’t very good this will happen often. However, good players will just wait until the last possible moment to go off — meaning that trick doesn’t work as well. They literally play 14-18 cards that go grab them more land, putting you down advantage. Don’t forget the beasts attacking you! (Decent)
Burn, affinity, GW combo, humans, elves, infect: all of these decks have extremely low curves and deploy their hand extremely efficiently. None of them are upset if you nuke their lands starting on t3.
Seriously buddy, I don’t think you get it. LD is great, but it’s not “8 slots in MB” great.
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I think your judgment is pretty harsh on Land Destruction : For each of the Matchups you talk about, other than Dredge , I've always won multiple games against them because of repetitive fulmi mages and beast withins. I could take all the MU you talk about and explain how land destruction is great against them (again, other than Dredge. I deeply believe LD is useless against them). I wouldn't play 4 Beast within either way but for consistency reasons.
As for the Archfiend, the more I play with and without it for testing, The less I really know how I feel about it. Sometimes it is crazy good and sometimes horribly bad.
What I believe is lacking here is a real deep analysis on the upsides and downsides of each possibilities that we have in those 4-6 flex slots. My feeling is, whatever we take, the deck will still be good because we're talking about 10% of the cards. But on the other way, as any spike wants to do, it is all about that tiny little edges we can grab. Therefore Here I will try to analyze and understand each upside and downside of what I believe are the 4 different cards that fit in these slots.
[u]Introduction to the analysis[/u]
I do not believe I have here the truth, neither do I believe that everything I write is 100% correct. I will forget some details and maybe write stupid things but I will update this post depending on your different answers and additions.
The goal of this analysis is to show the differences between four cards that are put in main board in the living end and that are often different in the decks. These cards are the most flexible slots and because people believe different things about different cards, it is a good idea to put all of that here to compare.
Note that Obviously, you can split your flexible spots between 2 or 3 different cards. You don't have to play 4 shriekmaws, 4 faerie macabre or 4 archfiends. but you also can do that If you want to.
Your opponent can't get rid of the LE in your graveyard if you have a faerie macabre in hand.
[u]Can be cast for 3cmc[/u]
This is especially relevant against control decks or decks without creatures when you have a Demonic Dread in hand. Happens more often that you'd think.
Rarely relevant, but I won games thanks to that possibility.
[u]Downsides(From greatest to least important)[/u]
[u]Doesn't cycle[/u]
This is by far the most annoying downside. I can't remember how any times I ended up drawing Faerie when I wish I could cycle that card to dig further into the deck.
[u]Small body[/u]
Okay it flies but that's a 2/2. Every other possibility here has a bigger body.
[u]Good against unaware opponents, less against those who anticipate it.[/u]
The surprise component of Faerie macabre is really important.
[u]General Conclusion[/u] Faerie macabre is a good card but has a body that is not that relevant. The amazing upside is the huge number of shenanigans you can do with it, from saving yourself from a surgical to removing past in flames from an opponent's storm deck. Note that if you play Leyline of the Void in the Sideboard, you may not want to play Faerie Macabre for obvious reasons.
the fact that archfiend flies is the main reason why it's played. Having a good creature with evasion really does wonders. It cuts the path to opponent's evasion (Mantis Rider) and can pass through opponent's board when they manage to put opposition post LE( Happens often if you use Demonic Dread)
[u]Very good ability[/u]
You can remove blockers easily by cycling multiple creatures, which clears the path to victory. Sometimes it is irrelevant but from my observations, after Resolving an LE thanks to Demonic Dread, this ability is quite useful. Better after Demonic Dread than Violent Outburst for sure.
[u]Amazing when hardcasted[/u]
For me, this is the main reason why I like Archfiend. Though hardcasting creatures should not be your priority at all, it does happen, and a giant flying body that clears the opponent's side is huge. That's why I would recommand playing more lands(19-20) if you have Archfiend in your deck, because you must face the possibility of having to hardcast it on turn 5-6 if you're unlucky or against a very controlling matchup.
[u]Cycles for colorless mana.[/u]
Of course the cost of 2 is a huge downside but hey, you can use your forest!
[u]Downsides(From greatest to least important)[/u]
[u]2 cycling[/u]
Here we are, the only reason why there is division about this card. It is a real downside, and for one good reason : what do you prefer between cycling paying two, binning two creatures and drawing two cards, or paying two, binning one creature, and drawing one card?
I believe this argument is valid, but has also flaws. For example, how many times will you really be able to cycle two creatures instead of one? and above that, we already play all the good 1 mana cycling creature, so what are the other cycling options? Architects of Will and Deadshot minotaur. I really don't like Deadshot because his ETB trigger happens so rarely and even kills your faeries, but Architects is a real option. So ask yourself: what would you prefer between cycling two architects or one archfiend? this is harder for me to answer and I don't know if there is one good answer to it.
If you use this slot for a non cycling option, then you must consider the fact that Archfiends lets you draw. If you compare it with Shriekmaw for example, you don't draw a card but kill a creature for the same cost in the end. Think about how many times you would prefer one option to the other, and you already have a lead about which option to take. Don't forget that you can also have 2 Archfiends AND 2 Shriekmaws for example.
[u]General Conclusion[/u]
the 2 cycling cost is a real downside but the upsides are also very good. from what I have been able to observe, Archfiend is good if you LE with Demonic Dread (removing the creatures your opponent may play on his turn before you can attack) and when hardcasted. When using violent outburst, it deals 5 damage, which is less than 6 with two architects for example.
May it be because your opponent is controlling a threatening fast creature(Goblin Guide), a creature that will win him the game if not answered( Baral, Chief of Compliance, Primeval Titan) or a creature that locks you from playing your Living End (Meddling Mage, Eidolon of Rethoric, Thalia Guardian of Thraben), Shriekmaw is a perfect 2cmc answer to these. For these reasons, it is sometimes a good MB card and overall a good SB card anyway. The fact that it can kill the same creature again after the Living End is what makes it really good.
[u]It has Evasion[/u]
Which means that your opponent can't wallbrick him nor kill him when you attack with it most of the times.
Cascading into LE then killing a blocker the next turn with a shriekmaw you have in hand for the victory is a valid strategy.
[u]with 5 mana, you can cast shriekmaw with evoke, put his sacrifice trigger first, let him die, then cast violent outburst to basically kill a card in the opponent's graveyard without having to use shriekmaw on the same target twice[u]
that's a funny shenanigan that doesn't appear that much but it can really steal games.
[u]Downsides(From greatest to least important)[/u]
[u]It doesn't cycle[/u]
This means that playing shriekmaw over a cyclers diminishes the consistency of finding a cascade spell. It is up to you to decide whether the upside is worth it or not.
[u]It is useless against some matchups[u]
Of course, any low creature deck, but also : Affinity, Original Tron, Death Shadow, any black creature, etc. it feels bad to have a useless shriekmaw in your hand. Think a lot about your meta before putting this card in your mainboard. Then, again, it is always good to have some in your sideboard.
[u]It only attacks for 3[u]
But At least it has evasion, which is a real upside.
[u]General Conclusion[/u] shriekmaw is always good in the sideboard, and really a meta call above anything else in your mainboard. look at your LGS, what people play in your FNM, or what you think the metagame will be in the next GP, because against the matchup when it does nothing, for sure every other option here is better.
Really, that's the only reason it is on this list while Archfiend of ifnir also is. 1 mana cycling is the bread and buter of Living End, so the more you have, the more consistent your deck is at cascading into LE.
[u]It manipulates your draws or your opponents'[/u]
this really depends on the opponent's deck, but against UW control or decks with damnation, being able to prevent your opponent from drawing Damnation or Supreme Verdict is the difference between win and loss. also, post sideboard you can try to grab your answers with this capacity.
[u]Downsides(From greatest to least important)[/u]
[u]bad body[/u]
when you cycle 6/4 cerodons for 1 mana, this sure looks like a weakling. it dies to bolt and to triggered fatal push.
[u]You can't hardcast it[u]
Of course, it is really the last card you would like to hardcast, but sometimes you need a blocker to survivre one more turn or because you need a target for Demonic Dread, and architects sure does not help you do that.
[u]General Conclusion[/u]
I like architects for its cool ETB ability, and I dislike it a lot for its easy-to-kill body and the fact that you can't cast it. Nevertheless, it cycles for 1, and that's important.
I hate the fact that it can kill your faeries and that it only has 3 attack, but it is the only creature that cycles for green and it can be hardcasted when architects of will cannot.
If you like destorying lands every time, sure, you can go up to 12 Land Destruction cards with this. but it is very slow and modern has some very fast decks. Avalanche rider will do nothing against most decks that will already have played their threats before you can slam that Rider on the battlefield.
It cycles for one mana and can be hardcasted, hits for 4, but that 2 endurance is... bad.
[u]General General Conclusion[/u]
From what we can see here, shriekmaw and, to some extent, faerie macabre are meta calls when in the main board. they will always, however, be good sideboard cards. On the other hand, Archfiend and Architects give your more consistency but do nothing outside of participating in your next Living End. The choice is completely up to you to put those cards how you want in your decks. I can't give you the perfect answer but at least I tried to give you the reasons for putting or leaving each of those cards!
Hope that did help you!
EDIT : I don't know why my html doesn't work... does anyone have an idea?
Let’s run through some MUs real quickly, and determine from there.
Eldrazi Tron: ironically, land denial is pretty subpar against them because they play so many. We spend our turn destroying a land, they play another one and jam a threat. We destroy a land, they replace it. We also have to focus our Beast Within on their Chalices, so that’s moot anyway. (Not good)
Storm: yea, if you’re taking the turn off to nuke a land, you aren’t winning this game. Storm needs 2 lands to win the game. (Not good)
Seriously buddy, I don’t think you get it. LD is great, but it’s not “8 slots in MB” great.
Adamantly disagree with you on these 2. In my last event I faced these 2 exact lists and the only reason I won either match up was because of Beast within.
Against storm, not only did I keep them on 0-1 land the entire game thanks to fulminator, beast, and SSG, but Beast token was fundamental to me being able to cascade with Demonic Dread. Yes they can go off with 2 lands, but I never let them have that. This is also one of the safest decks to use beast against, because they really don't have any subsequent creatures to follow up with to try to get incremental damage in.
Against eldrazi being able to take out specific tron lands kept them from landing any real threats until it was too late. I did specifically have a game last week where not only did I use 2 beast withins on their lands to keep them off threats, but at some point before I comboed out I beasted my own land to have a blocker to survive and subsequently win the game.
Those are very anecdotal cases. I’ve had countless games against eldrazi where t2 they play Chalice on 0, and now Beast Within is worthless to use on their land because you can’t cascade away the Beast.
Land destruction TYPICALLY won’t start until t3. On the draw, that means your opponent is extremely likely to already have deployed 1 threat, potentially 4 threats (worst case). Average they will have a Matter Reshaper and either Thought Knot or Smasher. They don’t rely on tron because their curve doesn’t really need 7 mana, their temple does just fine.
Sure you’ve managed to win a game against storm when you catch them stumbling. I also own Storm, I also own affinity, I also own Jund, I also own UW control. UW control is the only deck I’m worried about losing my land in.
T3 fulminator against storm is too slow on the draw, on the play it just means they go right back to 2 lands on their turn and proceed to go off. I lost my LCQ win-and-in with Living End against storm that went off t2 and killed me. It’s not hard. Your best bet is putting lethal into play and keeping their reducer off the field (Beast Within is better for this than for destroying lands)
Corner cases aside, LD is not the best plan for them.
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Land destruction is a great plan to fall into when your opponent misses an early land drop, but it's never plan A for me unless I'm playing UWx. I've LD'd a Valakut deck into the Stone Age before with 5 Fulminator activations and a Beast. He still ended the game on 5 lands. I was able to win, and it was due to the LD, but not because I mana screwed him. It just bought me enough time to beat down with a Ceradon and Wraith.
Played the deck at FNM and I would give a full report, but the games were fairly uninteresting.
R1 - Goblins
I win 2-0. Young kid who had never played vs Living End and played out his hand into my Living End twice.
R2 - Elves
I win 2-0. Young kid who had never played vs Living End and played out his hand into my Living End twice.
There was one interesting spot where my opponent had four mana up in the form of Elvish Archdruid and one card. I Beast Within his Archdruid which prompted him to cast the CoCo he was holding. I wiped his board on my turn.
R3 - Merfolk
Apparently it was tribal night (which is fine, I was on Cycling tribal). I got crushed 2-0 on the back of early Cursecatchers.
Again, one interesting spot was when my opponent had 1 land and a Vial on 1. I had 2 lands, SSG and Violent, so when he activated Vial for 1 I responded with my Cascade spell hoping to return Ceradon and Street Wraith x2. Unfortunately, he had main deck Spell Pierce and blew me out, but I don't think I could have played around it.
R4 - Bogles
Another player who hadn't played vs Living Wnd before. In fact, he was so new he left Rest In Peace in his board. I won easily 2-0.
3-1, 6-2 with no competitive matches all night. It just serves as a reminder that we eat most creature decks do breakfast other than Merfolk and Faeries.
Again, one interesting spot was when my opponent had 1 land and a Vial on 1. I had 2 lands, SSG and Violent, so when he activated Vial for 1 I responded with my Cascade spell hoping to return Ceradon and Street Wraith x2. Unfortunately, he had main deck Spell Pierce and blew me out, but I don't think I could have played around it.
This was likely still the proper play game one. I think post board when you know more maybe you want to allow him the vial drop first, see if its cursecatcher, and then either try to force him to sac it or wait and force him to do it later.
I only see UG Merfolk these days in my shop, and they’ve foregone cursecatcher altogether. My favorite plan for that MU is waiting until the last possible moment because they’re able to refill their board very quickly if they have the chance — and they usually have island walk, meaning a 4 turn clock probably won’t get you there
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I've been playing the blue version lately, and I figured I could share my thoughts on Archfiend with you guys too. The problem with Archfiend is twofold. 1) Actually casting him is too slow for his ability to be relevant most likely. 2) Putting him into play with Living End also means his ability is likely also irrelevant.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
I only see UG Merfolk these days in my shop, and they’ve foregone cursecatcher altogether. My favorite plan for that MU is waiting until the last possible moment because they’re able to refill their board very quickly if they have the chance — and they usually have island walk, meaning a 4 turn clock probably won’t get you there
I happened to see his deck a round earlier and saw he was mono U.
Game 1 - He is on the play, he managed to quickly use spreading sea to screwing my manabase, I have 2 Living End on my hand =/......then once he is up to 4 land, I cast my outburst, attempt to cast my last Living End, he used Cryptic and countered, on well.
Game 2 - This game was just unlucky as well, I never been able to draw my green mana base for some reason, it is like swamp, swamp, 2 blackcleave cliffs, never saw any Groves or Verdant to get that green mana, he also used spreading sea to make my mana even worse (eww >.<), once I got that green mana to cast my cascade spell, he had Negate to stop my Living End, sigh.
Round 2: Abzan, won
Game 1 - He is on the play, He won due early disruption, Grim Flayer, he also had a Ooze, I must use Beast Within to stop it, his clock was too fast, I can't find my cascade spell.
Game 2 - I won due to 2 quick Fulminator Mage to disrupt his mana base, then got few creatures in with cascade Living End, he can't cast any of his spells. He had a early spellbomb but I respond with a Ingot Chewer.
Game 3 - He had 2 mana early game, used Thoughtseize to take away my Ingot Chewer, then put down a spellbomb to blow up my graveyard, but I had a Fulminator Mage to slow him down, once I got to 5 mana and up, I was keep casting huge threats like Archfiend and Ceradon, he cannot stop it.
Round 3 - Abzan, won
Game 1 - The opponent is quite new playing against Living End, he used Thoughtseize to take away my Fulminator Mage instead of Violent Outburst, then on turn 3 I combo out.
Game 2 - This time he used Thoughtseize on my Living End, but I have too much Fulminator Mage to disrupt his mana base, He can't stop my combo after that.
Round 4 - Abzan, won.
Game 1 - He used his Thoughtseize/Inquisition on my cascade spell, but however I draw one later on, then I comboed out, his clock was too slow.
Game 2 - He had early Ooze, but I quickly respond with Beast Within, then I used Fulminator Mage to attack his mana base, he wasn't able to draw any lands, and I comboed out.
I guess there is way too much BGx at this store now... The U/W Control matchup will be better if I never draw 2 Living End and didn't mana screwed game 2.
The only MU I’ve been for Archfiend was against affinity, he’s a bomb there. Otherwise I’m not a fan. I’d rather SB him and swap directly for the fulminator mages in that MU
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My best advice against UW control is suspend a LE, let it tick down. If they counter it, then it signals they don’t have the wrath - so cascade into LE when they counter it and hope they don’t rip it off the top.
Otherwise my best advice is cycle more conservatively, start hardcasting on t5 and then use your LE to catch back up later in the game. It’s a very hard MU for them if you can follow through with that.
I also play Blood Moon and Ricochet Trap in the SB, so my Gameplan centers more on those - EOT cascade for a couple guys is great but I’m hoping they counter so I can slam down a Blood Moon my turn, or eat their counter spell with a Trap.
Attacking mana is also a great way to combat control strategies
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Hey, I wanted to point something out that came up while playing against Mono-Red Prison at a Modern tourney tonight. If a player gets greedy and tries to double up on their Chalice of the Void with x=0, the first Chalice will counter the second. I know that it’s obvious, but in the moment it’s possible to miss it. Just something to think about.
Also, can someone give me some pointers on the Storm MU? I think more than anything I just need to study up on “priority”, but I was wondering if anyone could give me some quick tips on the MU. For instance, I saw someone post a couple of pages back that if they cast Gifts Ungiven you put Past in Flames and Grapeshot in the yard and Macabre them. But if they hold priority then they can still cast their PiF before you get a chance to Macabre, right? I dunno.
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MODERN: BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG EDH: BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
Yes they hold priority after resolution but it effectively forces them to cast PiF first, without putting the rituals they grabbed into the yard first. Most of the time they’ll be greedy and cast the rituals first, leaving them open to Macabre
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They rarely will Gifts main phase, almost always doing it on your end step. So they can hold priority all they want, but they can't PiF on your turn.
Now, if they do GU on your turn, you have the option to exile the important cards in response to PiF. For example, I blew out a Storm player who used their sole Blue source to pay for Gifts with double Manamorohose in the yard. Once they cast the PiF, I responded by exiling those two cards leaving them a bunch of useless red mana.
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Modern RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH UFblthpU BRXantchaRB BGVarolzGB URWZedruuWRU
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RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU
I disagree with almost everything you are saying here.
1 - I would almost always rather have 4 beasts mainboard and side them out in an unknown meta, but even in a known meta I find that 4 is ideal. There is rarely a game where I do not want one in my hand, even against things like zoo.
2 - The situations where horror is well positioned come up far less often than the situations where I want to be able to cycle as much as I can and use up all my mana. It is not that it cannot be a good card, its just that I don't think the format is positioned as such and its better to have your manabase be as close to perfect as possible.
3 - Run 4 Guides. Games where I get 2 are almost always blowouts because they basically timewalk your opponent. I have had plenty of games where I was able to fulminator on 2 and then living end with 3-4 big dudes in my bin on turn 3 because I had 2 SSGs. It is literally backbreaking and the card disadvantage really should not matter for what this deck is doing.
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4 Beast Within is not where you want to be, idk how long you’ve played the 4th but a hand of 2 land, SSG, 2 Beast Within, cycler, cascade spell is just abysmal. Especially in the 18 land version that most of us play. You’re not cascading optimally because they aren’t creatures, you’re taking extra damage, and if you don’t find more checkers then you’re hand is basically a forced board wipe on t4.
I’m back to 2 Beast Within 1 Kolaghans Command, which often reclaims a Fulminator mage while making them discard a card or shooting a hatebear/planeswalker.
Very little sound logic for the 4th Beast Within. Our deck is great, I also think it’s one of the best in the format and I’ve been jamming it twice a week plus premier events since June.
On another note: I tried the GPOKC list last week for TNM and FNM, I absolutely hated Archfiend just as much as I thought I would. In the games he was good, we were already favored — and in the games he was bad, he was miserable (storm, valakut, lantern, et al). He shores up with hedge points against Affinity, but that’s the only deck — id rather stay streamlined MB and have the 4 Ingot chewer in my SB for the Affinity MU.
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That being said, I very rarely have ever had a game where if I drew into a 3rd Beast it was either not welcome or actively bad. The first 2 are almost always good as you can go for the land denial strategy, and the 3rd one, while at that point is often superfluous, is often just a card stranded in your hand that does not matter because you comboed off. Living end often ends games with extra cascades or drawn LEs in hand.
There will be metas where the 4th beast is bad, in which case it will get boarded out game 2, but I feel as if you need to specifically know the breakdown of that meta to make that call, where as most larger tournament metas are somewhat unknown when you enter them. If they were known you would also know if LE was the deck you should be rocking in the first place. There will also be metas and match ups where all 4 fulminator mages are absolute garbage, but no one is advocating to remove those.
I do wholeheartedly agree with Archfiend being just subpar. The bar to entry for any 2 mana cycler since the release of Amonkhet is staggeringly high, and at this point the only one I use at all is Pale Recluse which is more for fixing than anything, and is typically the first thing I consider cutting. I've yet to see hollow one perform for this list, though I imagine a scenario in the future where it could be a divergent or transformitive sideboard strategy.
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Deaths Shadow: operates fine on 1-2 lands, will already have a threat deployed by the time we start attacking their mana in earnest, plays 7-12 cantrips to find even more lands. (Not good)
Eldrazi Tron: ironically, land denial is pretty subpar against them because they play so many. We spend our turn destroying a land, they play another one and jam a threat. We destroy a land, they replace it. We also have to focus our Beast Within on their Chalices, so that’s moot anyway. (Not good)
Burn: I think we can all agree it’s bad here
UWx: really good here, as I said before it’s the only MU i want the full set of Beast Within against
Lantern: they play mana rocks and have several other permanents we’d rather be destroying. They also have an extremely low mana curve. (Not good)
Storm: yea, if you’re taking the turn off to nuke a land, you aren’t winning this game. Storm needs 2 lands to win the game. (Not good)
Dredge: attacking their lands is fine, a pretty fair strategy actually, but again... taking the turn off to nuke a land, not the way to beat a deck that puts a crap ton of power into play on repeat (Not good)
Valakut: hitting the 6th mountain in response to valakut triggers is cute, and if they aren’t very good this will happen often. However, good players will just wait until the last possible moment to go off — meaning that trick doesn’t work as well. They literally play 14-18 cards that go grab them more land, putting you down advantage. Don’t forget the beasts attacking you! (Decent)
Burn, affinity, GW combo, humans, elves, infect: all of these decks have extremely low curves and deploy their hand extremely efficiently. None of them are upset if you nuke their lands starting on t3.
Seriously buddy, I don’t think you get it. LD is great, but it’s not “8 slots in MB” great.
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As for the Archfiend, the more I play with and without it for testing, The less I really know how I feel about it. Sometimes it is crazy good and sometimes horribly bad.
What I believe is lacking here is a real deep analysis on the upsides and downsides of each possibilities that we have in those 4-6 flex slots. My feeling is, whatever we take, the deck will still be good because we're talking about 10% of the cards. But on the other way, as any spike wants to do, it is all about that tiny little edges we can grab. Therefore Here I will try to analyze and understand each upside and downside of what I believe are the 4 different cards that fit in these slots.
[u]Introduction to the analysis[/u]
I do not believe I have here the truth, neither do I believe that everything I write is 100% correct. I will forget some details and maybe write stupid things but I will update this post depending on your different answers and additions.
The goal of this analysis is to show the differences between four cards that are put in main board in the living end and that are often different in the decks. These cards are the most flexible slots and because people believe different things about different cards, it is a good idea to put all of that here to compare.
Note that Obviously, you can split your flexible spots between 2 or 3 different cards. You don't have to play 4 shriekmaws, 4 faerie macabre or 4 archfiends. but you also can do that If you want to.
[u]1st : Faerie Macabre[/u]
[u]Upsides(From strongest to least important)[/u]
[u]Downsides(From greatest to least important)[/u]
[u]General Conclusion[/u]
Faerie macabre is a good card but has a body that is not that relevant. The amazing upside is the huge number of shenanigans you can do with it, from saving yourself from a surgical to removing past in flames from an opponent's storm deck. Note that if you play Leyline of the Void in the Sideboard, you may not want to play Faerie Macabre for obvious reasons.
[u]2nd : Archfiend of Ifnir[/u]
[u]Upsides(From strongest to least important)[/u]
[u]Downsides(From greatest to least important)[/u]
I believe this argument is valid, but has also flaws. For example, how many times will you really be able to cycle two creatures instead of one? and above that, we already play all the good 1 mana cycling creature, so what are the other cycling options? Architects of Will and Deadshot minotaur. I really don't like Deadshot because his ETB trigger happens so rarely and even kills your faeries, but Architects is a real option. So ask yourself: what would you prefer between cycling two architects or one archfiend? this is harder for me to answer and I don't know if there is one good answer to it.
If you use this slot for a non cycling option, then you must consider the fact that Archfiends lets you draw. If you compare it with Shriekmaw for example, you don't draw a card but kill a creature for the same cost in the end. Think about how many times you would prefer one option to the other, and you already have a lead about which option to take. Don't forget that you can also have 2 Archfiends AND 2 Shriekmaws for example.
[u]General Conclusion[/u]
the 2 cycling cost is a real downside but the upsides are also very good. from what I have been able to observe, Archfiend is good if you LE with Demonic Dread (removing the creatures your opponent may play on his turn before you can attack) and when hardcasted. When using violent outburst, it deals 5 damage, which is less than 6 with two architects for example.
[u]3rd : Shriekmaw[/u]
[u]Upsides(From strongest to least important)[/u]
[u]Downsides(From greatest to least important)[/u]
[u]General Conclusion[/u]
shriekmaw is always good in the sideboard, and really a meta call above anything else in your mainboard. look at your LGS, what people play in your FNM, or what you think the metagame will be in the next GP, because against the matchup when it does nothing, for sure every other option here is better.
[u]4th : Architects of Will[/u]
[u]Upsides(From strongest to least important)[/u]
[u]Downsides(From greatest to least important)[/u]
[u]General Conclusion[/u]
I like architects for its cool ETB ability, and I dislike it a lot for its easy-to-kill body and the fact that you can't cast it. Nevertheless, it cycles for 1, and that's important.
[u]Honorable mentions[/u]
[u]General General Conclusion[/u]
From what we can see here, shriekmaw and, to some extent, faerie macabre are meta calls when in the main board. they will always, however, be good sideboard cards. On the other hand, Archfiend and Architects give your more consistency but do nothing outside of participating in your next Living End. The choice is completely up to you to put those cards how you want in your decks. I can't give you the perfect answer but at least I tried to give you the reasons for putting or leaving each of those cards!
Hope that did help you!
EDIT : I don't know why my html doesn't work... does anyone have an idea?
Adamantly disagree with you on these 2. In my last event I faced these 2 exact lists and the only reason I won either match up was because of Beast within.
Against storm, not only did I keep them on 0-1 land the entire game thanks to fulminator, beast, and SSG, but Beast token was fundamental to me being able to cascade with Demonic Dread. Yes they can go off with 2 lands, but I never let them have that. This is also one of the safest decks to use beast against, because they really don't have any subsequent creatures to follow up with to try to get incremental damage in.
Against eldrazi being able to take out specific tron lands kept them from landing any real threats until it was too late. I did specifically have a game last week where not only did I use 2 beast withins on their lands to keep them off threats, but at some point before I comboed out I beasted my own land to have a blocker to survive and subsequently win the game.
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Land destruction TYPICALLY won’t start until t3. On the draw, that means your opponent is extremely likely to already have deployed 1 threat, potentially 4 threats (worst case). Average they will have a Matter Reshaper and either Thought Knot or Smasher. They don’t rely on tron because their curve doesn’t really need 7 mana, their temple does just fine.
Sure you’ve managed to win a game against storm when you catch them stumbling. I also own Storm, I also own affinity, I also own Jund, I also own UW control. UW control is the only deck I’m worried about losing my land in.
T3 fulminator against storm is too slow on the draw, on the play it just means they go right back to 2 lands on their turn and proceed to go off. I lost my LCQ win-and-in with Living End against storm that went off t2 and killed me. It’s not hard. Your best bet is putting lethal into play and keeping their reducer off the field (Beast Within is better for this than for destroying lands)
Corner cases aside, LD is not the best plan for them.
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RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU
R1 - Goblins
I win 2-0. Young kid who had never played vs Living End and played out his hand into my Living End twice.
R2 - Elves
I win 2-0. Young kid who had never played vs Living End and played out his hand into my Living End twice.
There was one interesting spot where my opponent had four mana up in the form of Elvish Archdruid and one card. I Beast Within his Archdruid which prompted him to cast the CoCo he was holding. I wiped his board on my turn.
R3 - Merfolk
Apparently it was tribal night (which is fine, I was on Cycling tribal). I got crushed 2-0 on the back of early Cursecatchers.
Again, one interesting spot was when my opponent had 1 land and a Vial on 1. I had 2 lands, SSG and Violent, so when he activated Vial for 1 I responded with my Cascade spell hoping to return Ceradon and Street Wraith x2. Unfortunately, he had main deck Spell Pierce and blew me out, but I don't think I could have played around it.
R4 - Bogles
Another player who hadn't played vs Living Wnd before. In fact, he was so new he left Rest In Peace in his board. I won easily 2-0.
3-1, 6-2 with no competitive matches all night. It just serves as a reminder that we eat most creature decks do breakfast other than Merfolk and Faeries.
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
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This was likely still the proper play game one. I think post board when you know more maybe you want to allow him the vial drop first, see if its cursecatcher, and then either try to force him to sac it or wait and force him to do it later.
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I happened to see his deck a round earlier and saw he was mono U.
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
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Round 1: U/W Control, lost
Game 1 - He is on the play, he managed to quickly use spreading sea to screwing my manabase, I have 2 Living End on my hand =/......then once he is up to 4 land, I cast my outburst, attempt to cast my last Living End, he used Cryptic and countered, on well.
Game 2 - This game was just unlucky as well, I never been able to draw my green mana base for some reason, it is like swamp, swamp, 2 blackcleave cliffs, never saw any Groves or Verdant to get that green mana, he also used spreading sea to make my mana even worse (eww >.<), once I got that green mana to cast my cascade spell, he had Negate to stop my Living End, sigh.
Round 2: Abzan, won
Game 1 - He is on the play, He won due early disruption, Grim Flayer, he also had a Ooze, I must use Beast Within to stop it, his clock was too fast, I can't find my cascade spell.
Game 2 - I won due to 2 quick Fulminator Mage to disrupt his mana base, then got few creatures in with cascade Living End, he can't cast any of his spells. He had a early spellbomb but I respond with a Ingot Chewer.
Game 3 - He had 2 mana early game, used Thoughtseize to take away my Ingot Chewer, then put down a spellbomb to blow up my graveyard, but I had a Fulminator Mage to slow him down, once I got to 5 mana and up, I was keep casting huge threats like Archfiend and Ceradon, he cannot stop it.
Round 3 - Abzan, won
Game 1 - The opponent is quite new playing against Living End, he used Thoughtseize to take away my Fulminator Mage instead of Violent Outburst, then on turn 3 I combo out.
Game 2 - This time he used Thoughtseize on my Living End, but I have too much Fulminator Mage to disrupt his mana base, He can't stop my combo after that.
Round 4 - Abzan, won.
Game 1 - He used his Thoughtseize/Inquisition on my cascade spell, but however I draw one later on, then I comboed out, his clock was too slow.
Game 2 - He had early Ooze, but I quickly respond with Beast Within, then I used Fulminator Mage to attack his mana base, he wasn't able to draw any lands, and I comboed out.
I guess there is way too much BGx at this store now... The U/W Control matchup will be better if I never draw 2 Living End and didn't mana screwed game 2.
EDH: Xenagos, God of Revels.
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Otherwise my best advice is cycle more conservatively, start hardcasting on t5 and then use your LE to catch back up later in the game. It’s a very hard MU for them if you can follow through with that.
I also play Blood Moon and Ricochet Trap in the SB, so my Gameplan centers more on those - EOT cascade for a couple guys is great but I’m hoping they counter so I can slam down a Blood Moon my turn, or eat their counter spell with a Trap.
Attacking mana is also a great way to combat control strategies
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Also, can someone give me some pointers on the Storm MU? I think more than anything I just need to study up on “priority”, but I was wondering if anyone could give me some quick tips on the MU. For instance, I saw someone post a couple of pages back that if they cast Gifts Ungiven you put Past in Flames and Grapeshot in the yard and Macabre them. But if they hold priority then they can still cast their PiF before you get a chance to Macabre, right? I dunno.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
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Now, if they do GU on your turn, you have the option to exile the important cards in response to PiF. For example, I blew out a Storm player who used their sole Blue source to pay for Gifts with double Manamorohose in the yard. Once they cast the PiF, I responded by exiling those two cards leaving them a bunch of useless red mana.
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
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BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU