Thanks for the great tips for moving forward, I really appreciate it! Could you just give me a quick list of the ideal manabase with that procedure of obtaining said cards? like, do I still keep the 2 wooded foothills if I get the fourth windswept? And it looks like most people play 4 canopys?
And are there any preferred auras? Or is it all pretty much up to preferance at this point? are people using the white Cartouche?
Also, saw some people talking about running glistener? Sounds like an awesome game 2 trick! what would you take out for it? A hexproof? spiritdancer? mixture of things?
When I played before I wasn't super good, this deck is great at running itself, so I didn't really sideboard to play too intelligently, but that's kinda what I'm looking to change now.
Again, thanks for all the help!
This is the list I'm currently running; it's more/less representative of the typical Bogles build, however, there are notable exceptions:
-Kor Spiritdancer: While she can often be an all-star and win games on her own, I generally opt to run only two copies (2:2 split w/ Ledgwalker) as opposed to the full set, because creature removal has only gotten better in Modern.
-Glistener Elf: Two Elfs in the SB is a tactic I'll play around with every so often. In games 2/3, our opponent typically sides out the majority of targeted removal (sometimes all if you don't show Spiritdancer G1) and threatening w/ infect damage can throw them off balance and gives us another line of play.
-Unflinching Courage: Although being an OG part of Red Duke's championship deck, and therefore the archetype, I cut them long ago in favor of more 1-2 cmc auras.
-MB Leylines: This a pure meta call as lately I've encountered a metric ***** ton of decks running LotV, Blessed Alliance, hand disruption, etc. A full suite of Leylines has always been a staple in my SB, but having two in the main has saved my ass in many G1 situations. Chances of having it in an opening hand are obviously diminished G1, but it's a card that I'm often still happy to draw later and hard-cast.
-Other SB Choices: Dissenter's Deliverance & Krosan Grip are essentially there to combat Chalice. Gaddock Teeg is still my favorite card in the SB and it's surprising how many players continue to get caught off guard by him. A second spirit link is there to sure up Burn and other matchups where life-gain hoses. Spellskite is a "new old addition"; I used to carry two in the SB when Infect was at its peak, but they were cut once Probe was banned. Due to the resurgence of Infect decks running around, I've decided to re-add a singleton to my SB. Some other notable SB options to consider are: Sorcerous Spyglass, various other artifact/enchantment hate (YMMV), Torpor Orb, etc.
Answers to your questions:
1. Yes, you'll want to run a minimum of six fetch lands; the cheapest route would be 4x Windswept Heath and then Wooded Foothills. The non-Windswept fetches can basically be anything that fetches G. Canopies used to be a luxury for the deck, but thanks to it getting a reprint in IMA, they can be had for a fraction of what they used to cost and dramatically reduce the deck's overall cost of entry. I personally believe that Canopy has yet to hit its bottom, but I strongly recommend you pick them up sooner than later as you can't run an optimal build without them.
2. There aren't as many preferred auras as there are mandatory auras (Daybreak, Ethereal Armor, Rancor, & Umbras). These should almost always be ran as full sets, although some folks opt to run lesser amounts of one or both umbras. Personally, I run a play set of each of the aforementioned umbras which accounts for ~20 cards in the deck. After these auras, we typically have ~8-10 flex spots and those can be filled with whatever auras fill a need in your deck/meta. Spirit Link is great against Burn, Keen Sense is a card-draw options for budget builds/builds not running Canopies, Cartouche of Solidarity is fantastic (IMO) as it can't be stolen by a Spellskite and builds up our board with additional attackers, which can be sacked and save our Bogle from edict effects, Gryff's Boon is nice for getting over chump blockers, and Spirit Mantle is a personal favorite of mine that comes in handy during a number of scenarios.
3. See above re: Glistener. It's definitely a neat trick that can net you some easy wins, but not a strategy that you can re-use every week somewhere like FNM.
4. Re: Sideboarding - Stay tuned. A few of the active members of this thread are preparing to overhaul the Primer in the coming months in order to provide more relevant & recent information on the archetype. Sideboarding strategy and matchup analysis were two main areas discussed in regards to the updated Primer.
Right on man! I really appreciate this solid run down, and am looking forward to reading the matchup analysis, as being more present with the games I play and changing things up accordingly will be a big help in taking my game to the next level.
Thanks for the great tips for moving forward, I really appreciate it! Could you just give me a quick list of the ideal manabase with that procedure of obtaining said cards? like, do I still keep the 2 wooded foothills if I get the fourth windswept? And it looks like most people play 4 canopys?
My ideal manabase is:
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills (or other green fetch)
2 Temple Garden
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
I find 5 fetchable lands to be enough, it's extremely rare that you'd need the third Temple Garden and every chance to fetch Dryad Arbor helps. If you don't have Horizon Canopy I would replace them with 2 Temple Gardens, a 5th green fetch, and go down to 20 lands. Brushland is a decent alternative if you don't have all the Thickets, Fetches and Shocks. Sunpetal Groves and more basics are not recommended.
And are there any preferred auras? Or is it all pretty much up to preferance at this point? are people using the white Cartouche?
Previously I considered these auras to be mandatory:
4 Daybreak Coronet
4 Ethereal Armor
4 Rancor
4 Spider Umbra
4 Hyena Umbra
The remaining ~4 aura slots were metagame/preference. With the printing of Cartouche and the general lack of sweepers in the format, I feel that it's possible to shave a couple of Hyena Umbras, but the specifics come down to metagame variation and preference. My preference right now is to play 3 Spirit Mantles since they are generally good against many popular decks.
Also, saw some people talking about running glistener? Sounds like an awesome game 2 trick! what would you take out for it? A hexproof? spiritdancer? mixture of things?
I have never understood why people want to run Glistener Elf since it goes completely against the deck's strategy. The goal is normally to establish a creature that is larger than anything the opponent does and beat them down turn after turn while they can do nothing about it. One turn more or less is rarely going to matter. Against combo decks the game can sometimes come down to a race where the speed increase would be relevant, but in almost all of those cases you still can't really live without the Hexproof.
People often overestimate how much removal actually gets sided out against us. Some removal will go out yes, but almost every single deck keeps a healthy amount. Lightning Bolt/Galvanic Blast is kept to go face. Abrupt Decay/Kolaghan's Command are kept for their versatility. Even Path to Exile/Fatal Push/Dismember are often kept in simply because there's not enough relevant cards to bring in and there's always Kor Spiritdancer/Dryad Arbor to hit.
The only matchup where Glistener Elf actually sounds like a good plan is Ad Nauseam because of how it gets around Angel's Grace/Phyrexian Unlife, and that's just too narrow for a matchup where we already play ~10 sideboard cards for.
The only matchup where Glistener Elf actually sounds like a good plan is Ad Nauseam because of how it gets around Angel's Grace/Phyrexian Unlife, and that's just too narrow for a matchup where we already play ~10 sideboard cards for.
Glistener Elf with nearly any reasonable curve out of enchantments is a t3 kill. Which... can be a thing if your meta is full of combo decks you can't clock or reasonably out-life-gain such as storm, living end, ad nauseum. Glistener elf is a beating for Tron as well - Anecdotally, the one PPTQ I rolled out the Glistener Elf sideboard plan, I was able to blow the doors off of mono-u tron.
Also, it is becoming clear that spirit mantle is gaining traction among our small community. An unblockable infect creature is pretty intriguing. Good against Worship.
But yeah, while I am not particularly high on the Glistener Elf sideboard plan, I think it can be a reasonable Meta call.
*Just a few questions about anecdotal evidence. I played a PPTQ with Titanshift where the Living End opponent didn't have Living End on turn 3 in 2 games. Other than that, they have had Living End on turn 3 in at least 95% of the games. I don't want to do the math because I'm scared to know the answer, but does this happen quite often? Admittedly I'm only talking about fewer than 20 matches though, so probably in 15 or so matches.
It's not liste on my sig, but I'm also a Living End player. Yep, we have the LE on turn 3 most of the time. There are 8 cascade spells, and one mana cyclers to have a higher chance to draw into the cascade spells. Some lists even have that new red spell from Kaladesh that let's them cast the LE that is on hand.
Played in a 20 person FNM for 4 rounds. Been really struggling recently, no matter what deck I play.
Round 1 vs. Bring to Light Scapeshift. He does Remand into Cryptic on turn 3 into ramp and Bring to Light on turn 4 on the play. Game. In the next game, he has turn 3 Madcap Experiment, getting Platinum Emperion. Now, I literally have no out to this since I sided out 3 Path to Exile and even if I had them in, when he "cascaded" to find the Emperion, he only went through 1 Cryptic Command, so nothing is getting past that anyway. We stall out as I have a big blocker. He does Nature's Claim on my Leyline of Sanctity and Swan Song on another that I play the following turn. Then he Scapeshifts away. 0-2.
Round 2 vs. 8 Whack. This guy got me for my only loss last FNM (when I ran UW Gideon) with a Miracled Thunderous Wrath for exact lethal when I had somewhat stabilized. This time, I take a bunch of damage both games until MY turn 3 when I lifelink a bunch back and win easily. Both games were pretty much the same. Goblin Guide, Bushwhackers, other small creatures. 2-0.
Round 3 vs. Mono White Enchantments. Game 1 on the play for him, turn 3 Phyrexian Unlife. Turn 4, Solemnity. In the next game, I am on the play and get some creatures, but he has Porphyry Nodes. I do Seal of Primordium and am drawing a bunch of cards with Kor Spiritdancer and finishing quickly. In the last game, he starts with 2 pregame Leyline of Sanctity. I think, not a big deal...unless he has Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. I turn 3 get Gaddock Teeg with a Spider Umbra, which doesn't mean much against this deck. He goes to his turn 4 and Avacyn, Angel of Hope. He sided 1 in and I sided out Path to Exile again. 1-2.
Round 4 vs. Burn. Went how these matches usually go with lifelink and only 1 Skullcrack. 2-0.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
This is a super slow thread. I guess there's not much love for Bogles or at least the players who do run it don't post here. 14 person MNM.
Round 1 vs. Burn. The guy was a newer player and stood no chance regardless, as I got lifelink in time with Unflinching Courage in game 1. I'm not sure if he had Skullcrack in hand or not. In the next game, I got Daybreak Coronet and went to town. 2-0.
Round 2 vs. E Tron. I haven't played against this in quite a while, so I was excited. I get Bogle into Rancor and Ethereal Armor. He does turn 2 Chalice of the Void. He had mulled to 5, so he didn't play much else other than chump blockers. I win with that Bogle, eventually drawing some cards with useless 1 mana Auras after I drew Kor Spiritdancer. I seemingly make a mistake not attacking him with Dryad Arbor and he is at 1 life. But he doesn't draw All is Dust. He tells me that he had Ghost Quarter anyway, which I didn't even realize. I have Seal of Primordium for his turn 2 Chalice after a mull to 6 by him. I then get a large Bogle and go to work. He makes a mistaken block and loses his Endbringer, only able to draw 2 cards in the meantime. 2-0.
Round 3 vs. BR Hollow One. He had a painfully slow start and got run over by a Bogle. He bolted me 3 times this game and I was at 4 life from a Horizon Canopy that I kept using, but I survived. In the next game, he misses his 2nd land drop after 2 Faithless Looting, so my turn 2 Rest in Peace took out his 2 Bloodghast. He only had his turn 2 Hollow One and then later a Flamewake Adept. Not enough for 2 large Bogles. 2-0.
Round 4 vs. Merfolk. In the first game, I get a really big guy that gets there with Spirit Mantle. He has a painfully slow draw. I think he should have mulled since his opening 2 lands were Mutavault X 2. In the next game, I get Daybreak Coronet and despite 5 Lords, he can't get through for lethal. I end the game at 27 life when he scoops. He couldn't find his Spreading Seas, but at that point, I think I was still safe. If he had done it on turns 2 or 3, I couldn't have played Daybreak Coronet, as I only had 2 lands in play. 2-0.
Nice evening for me at 4-0. Breaking out of a slump where I was something like 9-13 in Modern recently felt good!
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I think the thread is on the slower side because there really isn't that much to discuss about the deck lol. It's all in aggro with only minor variations in lists
I think the thread is on the slower side because there really isn't that much to discuss about the deck lol. It's all in aggro with only minor variations in lists
This is true. I wish I saw more tournament reports though, which is part of the reason I do it myself.
I think Leyline of Sanctity mainboard is worth discussing more. I also saw some lists running 2 Spirit Link mainboard or Corey Burkhart running 2 Gryff's Boon main, which seems bad, outside of being able to block fliers if needed. And there's always matchup win percentages to discuss. I am curious how people do vs. E Tron since I rarely see the deck anymore.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I think the thread is on the slower side because there really isn't that much to discuss about the deck lol. It's all in aggro with only minor variations in lists
This is true. I wish I saw more tournament reports though, which is part of the reason I do it myself.
I think Leyline of Sanctity mainboard is worth discussing more. I also saw some lists running 2 Spirit Link mainboard or Corey Burkhart running 2 Gryff's Boon main, which seems bad, outside of being able to block fliers if needed. And there's always matchup win percentages to discuss. I am curious how people do vs. E Tron since I rarely see the deck anymore.
I like the second Gryff's Boon more than the first Unflinching Courage, if that means anything. Flying is sometimes really important and other times simply means unblockable. You could run anything else in it's spot, but it seems good enough.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
I will admit that Unflinching Courage has not been the most stellar card. In fact, it's rarely been good. But I feel nearly the same way about Gryff's Boon. Unflinching Courage dodges Chalice of the Void, but then I guess it may even be unreasonable to think that we can beat that card, especially on the draw. For what it's worth, I have beaten Chalice of the Void around 40% of the time, although Courage has never been drawn during those matches.
I just feel that it gives pseudo-evasion in Trample AND lifelink, while dodging Chalice. Gryff's Boon gives evasion and can come back, although that part has never been done by me. I really honestly only think Gryff's Boon is better against Affinity. Most anything else, you can argue that Unflinching Courage is better. Also, I don't need that many "unblockable" effects - I already run 3 Spirit Mantle.
I was considering trying out 3-4 Mana Tithe for *****s and giggles. Has anyone had experience with that card?
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I will admit that Unflinching Courage has not been the most stellar card. In fact, it's rarely been good. But I feel nearly the same way about Gryff's Boon. Unflinching Courage dodges Chalice of the Void, but then I guess it may even be unreasonable to think that we can beat that card, especially on the draw. For what it's worth, I have beaten Chalice of the Void around 40% of the time, although Courage has never been drawn during those matches.
I just feel that it gives pseudo-evasion in Trample AND lifelink, while dodging Chalice. Gryff's Boon gives evasion and can come back, although that part has never been done by me. I really honestly only think Gryff's Boon is better against Affinity. Most anything else, you can argue that Unflinching Courage is better. Also, I don't need that many "unblockable" effects - I already run 3 Spirit Mantle.
I was considering trying out 3-4 Mana Tithe for *****s and giggles. Has anyone had experience with that card?
I can vouch for the flying vs Humans and Taxes. I guess it depends on how much you expect to see Chalice. You likely aren't beating a Chalice on the draw whether you have Boon or Courage in your deck. Can't win them all.
I've played Mana Tithe in other decks, and it always feels sweet. The issue though is that you don't get to pick what you counter, you just hit whatever you can, because a lot of the time you can't.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
I was considering trying out 3-4 Mana Tithe for *****s and giggles. Has anyone had experience with that card?
I played with 2 Mana Tithe maindeck for quite a while and the card was great in some matchups. It is at its best when the opponent tries to play a lot on your turn. Countering a Cryptic Command or Mana Leak can be gamebreaking. It was at its best against UR Twin, RUG Scapeshift and UR(x) Control. Unfortunately, those matchups don't really exist anymore. Against fair decks that play mostly on their own turn it's pretty bad. If you hold up mana for Mana Tithe instead of playing things, you lose a lot of tempo and there's no guarantee that the opponent will tap out even if they don't know about Mana Tithe. If you play out everything first your opponent might have so much mana that Tithe does nothing. In the current meta it's really awful against Eldrazi Tron, Affinity and GBx decks and it's fairly weak against Death's Shadow decks as they will see it with discard spells. Against classic Tron decks it's pretty good since you can often predict their plays and catch a Karn or Ugin when they're expecting to just win. Against Burn it's quite good to stop Skullcrack type effects and also Deflecting Palm.
So my advice is that it's only a good card if you are expecting a lot of blue decks with counterspells (and especially Cryptic Command). If you are going to play it I recommend 1-2 copies as playing too many makes it easy and worth it to play around. Half the strength is that it scares the opponent into playing around it when they shouldn't, but if you play too many copies it's always correct to play around.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I will try to write a little report if I play boggles at modern tonight.
Re: mana tithe - love it but would say it is sort of so-so. It seems to work well enough against degenerate fast combo because those guys will almost always see us as shields down and jam asap. Or even against something like Lantern where I do my best to board into boggles control lol.
Re: 4 copies of leyline main... I have tried it and remember feeling punished because prioritizing game 1 hands gets way more complicated. In fairness to Burkhart, he has what seem to be hard rules on his keeps so that probably mitigates the issue. I do agree if you are going to run them, in the board or in the main, have the 4.
Forgetting about the U needed for the casting cost, are there any thoughts on Hadana's Climb and whether it could be a viable win-con? It doesn't help win via Bogle's plan A, but on paper it seems like it could be a solid plan B in grindier games; it can potentially be a slow play, but it still buffs our Bogle each turn which softens the blow of enchantment hate. It might be too cute and just me being eager to play a new toy in the deck, but I'm curious what you folks think.
Hey guys, wandering into this thread here as I am getting interested in sleeving up the ol' bogles, as the format seems to be moving towards a more dorky shadows/midrange/control meta, with big mana being the foil. I've jammed 20~ games with it and have been pretty impressed. I couldn't find a matchup section on page 1 - what are some good and bad matchups for Bogles? From my impression, any mid range and control shells without LotV seems to be very good including humans. linear combo like Storm and Ad Nauseam seems like a nightmare but I'm assuming that's why people pack RIPs/Rule of Laws for a variety of unfair GY decks/spell based combos. Shadows seems to be even-ish if you are maindecking leylines. I was curious about people disliking Gryff's Boons - can someone please elaborate? Seems like Flying is key in a field full of humans, GBx midrange, affinity, infect etc.
What is the motiviation behind running Spirit Mantle over Gryff's Boon? I mean, yes Boon can make us open to being chumped by Lingering Souls, but it's not THAT common in the meta at the moment. Secondly, it seems as though most lists have dropped Spirit Link.
Recently I just picked up the last of my Horizon Canopies. As some in this thread know, I've been experimenting with Cartouche of Strength to replace Unflinching Courage, but now the move from 3cmc auras to 2 and 1 has me guessing.
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This is the list I'm currently running; it's more/less representative of the typical Bogles build, however, there are notable exceptions:
-Kor Spiritdancer: While she can often be an all-star and win games on her own, I generally opt to run only two copies (2:2 split w/ Ledgwalker) as opposed to the full set, because creature removal has only gotten better in Modern.
-Glistener Elf: Two Elfs in the SB is a tactic I'll play around with every so often. In games 2/3, our opponent typically sides out the majority of targeted removal (sometimes all if you don't show Spiritdancer G1) and threatening w/ infect damage can throw them off balance and gives us another line of play.
-Unflinching Courage: Although being an OG part of Red Duke's championship deck, and therefore the archetype, I cut them long ago in favor of more 1-2 cmc auras.
-MB Leylines: This a pure meta call as lately I've encountered a metric ***** ton of decks running LotV, Blessed Alliance, hand disruption, etc. A full suite of Leylines has always been a staple in my SB, but having two in the main has saved my ass in many G1 situations. Chances of having it in an opening hand are obviously diminished G1, but it's a card that I'm often still happy to draw later and hard-cast.
-Other SB Choices: Dissenter's Deliverance & Krosan Grip are essentially there to combat Chalice. Gaddock Teeg is still my favorite card in the SB and it's surprising how many players continue to get caught off guard by him. A second spirit link is there to sure up Burn and other matchups where life-gain hoses. Spellskite is a "new old addition"; I used to carry two in the SB when Infect was at its peak, but they were cut once Probe was banned. Due to the resurgence of Infect decks running around, I've decided to re-add a singleton to my SB. Some other notable SB options to consider are: Sorcerous Spyglass, various other artifact/enchantment hate (YMMV), Torpor Orb, etc.
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Gladecover Scout
2 Kor Spiritdancer
2 Silhana Ledgewalker
Auras:
4 Rancor
4 Ethereal Armor
4 Hyena Umbra
4 Spider Umbra
1 Spirit Link
1 Gryff's Boon
2 Cartouche of Solidarity
2 Spirit Mantle
4 Daybreak Coronet
3 Path to Exile
Land:
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windwept Heath
3 Temple Garden
4 Horizon Canopy
1 Snow-covered Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Glistener Elf
1 Spellskite
1 Path to Exile
2 Stony Silence
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Rest in Peace
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Nature's Claim
1 Dissenter's Deliverance
1 Krosan Grip
Answers to your questions:
1. Yes, you'll want to run a minimum of six fetch lands; the cheapest route would be 4x Windswept Heath and then Wooded Foothills. The non-Windswept fetches can basically be anything that fetches G. Canopies used to be a luxury for the deck, but thanks to it getting a reprint in IMA, they can be had for a fraction of what they used to cost and dramatically reduce the deck's overall cost of entry. I personally believe that Canopy has yet to hit its bottom, but I strongly recommend you pick them up sooner than later as you can't run an optimal build without them.
2. There aren't as many preferred auras as there are mandatory auras (Daybreak, Ethereal Armor, Rancor, & Umbras). These should almost always be ran as full sets, although some folks opt to run lesser amounts of one or both umbras. Personally, I run a play set of each of the aforementioned umbras which accounts for ~20 cards in the deck. After these auras, we typically have ~8-10 flex spots and those can be filled with whatever auras fill a need in your deck/meta. Spirit Link is great against Burn, Keen Sense is a card-draw options for budget builds/builds not running Canopies, Cartouche of Solidarity is fantastic (IMO) as it can't be stolen by a Spellskite and builds up our board with additional attackers, which can be sacked and save our Bogle from edict effects, Gryff's Boon is nice for getting over chump blockers, and Spirit Mantle is a personal favorite of mine that comes in handy during a number of scenarios.
3. See above re: Glistener. It's definitely a neat trick that can net you some easy wins, but not a strategy that you can re-use every week somewhere like FNM.
4. Re: Sideboarding - Stay tuned. A few of the active members of this thread are preparing to overhaul the Primer in the coming months in order to provide more relevant & recent information on the archetype. Sideboarding strategy and matchup analysis were two main areas discussed in regards to the updated Primer.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
My ideal manabase is:
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills (or other green fetch)
2 Temple Garden
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
I find 5 fetchable lands to be enough, it's extremely rare that you'd need the third Temple Garden and every chance to fetch Dryad Arbor helps. If you don't have Horizon Canopy I would replace them with 2 Temple Gardens, a 5th green fetch, and go down to 20 lands. Brushland is a decent alternative if you don't have all the Thickets, Fetches and Shocks. Sunpetal Groves and more basics are not recommended.
Previously I considered these auras to be mandatory:
4 Daybreak Coronet
4 Ethereal Armor
4 Rancor
4 Spider Umbra
4 Hyena Umbra
The remaining ~4 aura slots were metagame/preference. With the printing of Cartouche and the general lack of sweepers in the format, I feel that it's possible to shave a couple of Hyena Umbras, but the specifics come down to metagame variation and preference. My preference right now is to play 3 Spirit Mantles since they are generally good against many popular decks.
I have never understood why people want to run Glistener Elf since it goes completely against the deck's strategy. The goal is normally to establish a creature that is larger than anything the opponent does and beat them down turn after turn while they can do nothing about it. One turn more or less is rarely going to matter. Against combo decks the game can sometimes come down to a race where the speed increase would be relevant, but in almost all of those cases you still can't really live without the Hexproof.
People often overestimate how much removal actually gets sided out against us. Some removal will go out yes, but almost every single deck keeps a healthy amount. Lightning Bolt/Galvanic Blast is kept to go face. Abrupt Decay/Kolaghan's Command are kept for their versatility. Even Path to Exile/Fatal Push/Dismember are often kept in simply because there's not enough relevant cards to bring in and there's always Kor Spiritdancer/Dryad Arbor to hit.
The only matchup where Glistener Elf actually sounds like a good plan is Ad Nauseam because of how it gets around Angel's Grace/Phyrexian Unlife, and that's just too narrow for a matchup where we already play ~10 sideboard cards for.
Glistener Elf with nearly any reasonable curve out of enchantments is a t3 kill. Which... can be a thing if your meta is full of combo decks you can't clock or reasonably out-life-gain such as storm, living end, ad nauseum. Glistener elf is a beating for Tron as well - Anecdotally, the one PPTQ I rolled out the Glistener Elf sideboard plan, I was able to blow the doors off of mono-u tron.
Also, it is becoming clear that spirit mantle is gaining traction among our small community. An unblockable infect creature is pretty intriguing. Good against Worship.
But yeah, while I am not particularly high on the Glistener Elf sideboard plan, I think it can be a reasonable Meta call.
It's not liste on my sig, but I'm also a Living End player. Yep, we have the LE on turn 3 most of the time. There are 8 cascade spells, and one mana cyclers to have a higher chance to draw into the cascade spells. Some lists even have that new red spell from Kaladesh that let's them cast the LE that is on hand.
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Round 1 vs. Bring to Light Scapeshift. He does Remand into Cryptic on turn 3 into ramp and Bring to Light on turn 4 on the play. Game. In the next game, he has turn 3 Madcap Experiment, getting Platinum Emperion. Now, I literally have no out to this since I sided out 3 Path to Exile and even if I had them in, when he "cascaded" to find the Emperion, he only went through 1 Cryptic Command, so nothing is getting past that anyway. We stall out as I have a big blocker. He does Nature's Claim on my Leyline of Sanctity and Swan Song on another that I play the following turn. Then he Scapeshifts away. 0-2.
Round 2 vs. 8 Whack. This guy got me for my only loss last FNM (when I ran UW Gideon) with a Miracled Thunderous Wrath for exact lethal when I had somewhat stabilized. This time, I take a bunch of damage both games until MY turn 3 when I lifelink a bunch back and win easily. Both games were pretty much the same. Goblin Guide, Bushwhackers, other small creatures. 2-0.
Round 3 vs. Mono White Enchantments. Game 1 on the play for him, turn 3 Phyrexian Unlife. Turn 4, Solemnity. In the next game, I am on the play and get some creatures, but he has Porphyry Nodes. I do Seal of Primordium and am drawing a bunch of cards with Kor Spiritdancer and finishing quickly. In the last game, he starts with 2 pregame Leyline of Sanctity. I think, not a big deal...unless he has Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. I turn 3 get Gaddock Teeg with a Spider Umbra, which doesn't mean much against this deck. He goes to his turn 4 and Avacyn, Angel of Hope. He sided 1 in and I sided out Path to Exile again. 1-2.
Round 4 vs. Burn. Went how these matches usually go with lifelink and only 1 Skullcrack. 2-0.
2-2.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Round 1 vs. Burn. The guy was a newer player and stood no chance regardless, as I got lifelink in time with Unflinching Courage in game 1. I'm not sure if he had Skullcrack in hand or not. In the next game, I got Daybreak Coronet and went to town. 2-0.
Round 2 vs. E Tron. I haven't played against this in quite a while, so I was excited. I get Bogle into Rancor and Ethereal Armor. He does turn 2 Chalice of the Void. He had mulled to 5, so he didn't play much else other than chump blockers. I win with that Bogle, eventually drawing some cards with useless 1 mana Auras after I drew Kor Spiritdancer. I seemingly make a mistake not attacking him with Dryad Arbor and he is at 1 life. But he doesn't draw All is Dust. He tells me that he had Ghost Quarter anyway, which I didn't even realize. I have Seal of Primordium for his turn 2 Chalice after a mull to 6 by him. I then get a large Bogle and go to work. He makes a mistaken block and loses his Endbringer, only able to draw 2 cards in the meantime. 2-0.
Round 3 vs. BR Hollow One. He had a painfully slow start and got run over by a Bogle. He bolted me 3 times this game and I was at 4 life from a Horizon Canopy that I kept using, but I survived. In the next game, he misses his 2nd land drop after 2 Faithless Looting, so my turn 2 Rest in Peace took out his 2 Bloodghast. He only had his turn 2 Hollow One and then later a Flamewake Adept. Not enough for 2 large Bogles. 2-0.
Round 4 vs. Merfolk. In the first game, I get a really big guy that gets there with Spirit Mantle. He has a painfully slow draw. I think he should have mulled since his opening 2 lands were Mutavault X 2. In the next game, I get Daybreak Coronet and despite 5 Lords, he can't get through for lethal. I end the game at 27 life when he scoops. He couldn't find his Spreading Seas, but at that point, I think I was still safe. If he had done it on turns 2 or 3, I couldn't have played Daybreak Coronet, as I only had 2 lands in play. 2-0.
Nice evening for me at 4-0. Breaking out of a slump where I was something like 9-13 in Modern recently felt good!
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Retired
Legacy:
GRUB Lands
Modern:
U Tron
RG Tron
RG Ponza
This is true. I wish I saw more tournament reports though, which is part of the reason I do it myself.
I think Leyline of Sanctity mainboard is worth discussing more. I also saw some lists running 2 Spirit Link mainboard or Corey Burkhart running 2 Gryff's Boon main, which seems bad, outside of being able to block fliers if needed. And there's always matchup win percentages to discuss. I am curious how people do vs. E Tron since I rarely see the deck anymore.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I like the second Gryff's Boon more than the first Unflinching Courage, if that means anything. Flying is sometimes really important and other times simply means unblockable. You could run anything else in it's spot, but it seems good enough.
I just feel that it gives pseudo-evasion in Trample AND lifelink, while dodging Chalice. Gryff's Boon gives evasion and can come back, although that part has never been done by me. I really honestly only think Gryff's Boon is better against Affinity. Most anything else, you can argue that Unflinching Courage is better. Also, I don't need that many "unblockable" effects - I already run 3 Spirit Mantle.
I was considering trying out 3-4 Mana Tithe for *****s and giggles. Has anyone had experience with that card?
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I can vouch for the flying vs Humans and Taxes. I guess it depends on how much you expect to see Chalice. You likely aren't beating a Chalice on the draw whether you have Boon or Courage in your deck. Can't win them all.
I've played Mana Tithe in other decks, and it always feels sweet. The issue though is that you don't get to pick what you counter, you just hit whatever you can, because a lot of the time you can't.
I played with 2 Mana Tithe maindeck for quite a while and the card was great in some matchups. It is at its best when the opponent tries to play a lot on your turn. Countering a Cryptic Command or Mana Leak can be gamebreaking. It was at its best against UR Twin, RUG Scapeshift and UR(x) Control. Unfortunately, those matchups don't really exist anymore. Against fair decks that play mostly on their own turn it's pretty bad. If you hold up mana for Mana Tithe instead of playing things, you lose a lot of tempo and there's no guarantee that the opponent will tap out even if they don't know about Mana Tithe. If you play out everything first your opponent might have so much mana that Tithe does nothing. In the current meta it's really awful against Eldrazi Tron, Affinity and GBx decks and it's fairly weak against Death's Shadow decks as they will see it with discard spells. Against classic Tron decks it's pretty good since you can often predict their plays and catch a Karn or Ugin when they're expecting to just win. Against Burn it's quite good to stop Skullcrack type effects and also Deflecting Palm.
So my advice is that it's only a good card if you are expecting a lot of blue decks with counterspells (and especially Cryptic Command). If you are going to play it I recommend 1-2 copies as playing too many makes it easy and worth it to play around. Half the strength is that it scares the opponent into playing around it when they shouldn't, but if you play too many copies it's always correct to play around.
Not sure which list you're looking at, but here's my list during the Twin era.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=11132&d=263319&f=MO
It hasn't changed much, so it's a good guideline. I would change 2 Hyena Umbra to 2 Cartouche of Solidarity for starters.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Re: mana tithe - love it but would say it is sort of so-so. It seems to work well enough against degenerate fast combo because those guys will almost always see us as shields down and jam asap. Or even against something like Lantern where I do my best to board into boggles control lol.
Re: 4 copies of leyline main... I have tried it and remember feeling punished because prioritizing game 1 hands gets way more complicated. In fairness to Burkhart, he has what seem to be hard rules on his keeps so that probably mitigates the issue. I do agree if you are going to run them, in the board or in the main, have the 4.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Recently I just picked up the last of my Horizon Canopies. As some in this thread know, I've been experimenting with Cartouche of Strength to replace Unflinching Courage, but now the move from 3cmc auras to 2 and 1 has me guessing.