What do you guys think of Chalice as a sideboard option for Burn/heavy hand disruption metas? Setting it at 1 really bork's Burn's day as well as Thoughtseize and Inquisition, plus any cantrips like Serum Visions.
What do you guys think of Chalice as a sideboard option for Burn/heavy hand disruption metas? Setting it at 1 really bork's Burn's day as well as Thoughtseize and Inquisition, plus any cantrips like Serum Visions.
Sounds pretty good if you've got the space. I'm not sure if it's worth it for a general metagame, though, because Delver isn't as one-drop heavy and it may be taking up space where more versatile cards could go.
I'm a big fan of Serum Visions, but couldn't find room for it in this build. I'm playing 3 Charms because I find it to be really powerful against Burn and gives additional cheap answers against Liliana of the Veil, which is pretty much your only way to lose to BGx.
My primary reason for playing Thragtusk is that it trades profitably with Siege Rhino while being as good (approximately) as Batterskull or Obstinate Baloth against Burn. My current counter/anti-blue suite is focused a bit more to beat Twin, but if you are preparing more for Abzan or combo decks I'd certainly find room for Counterflux. I really love Inferno Titan against any aggro decks, but once again if Abzan is your problem then Wurmcoil Engine is a better choice.
@sadmafloso I'm interested in your thoughts on Bolt in the main. I really, really hate maindecking that card because it always feels so bad to draw it without a Dig Through Time to catch me back up. I don't think it's worth playing given how bad the card is against Abzan and Twin. Your thoughts on my list would also be sweet.
Sure you can still combo with more lands, just poiting out that the combo becomes weaker on longer games.
Regarding the sideboard, the swan songs seem like a good counter trick, leave one island open, Amulet and Twin will think "haha he has a dispel, gg", the token thing really sucks, a 2/2 flyer does put you in a clock, especially with Vendilions and Pestermites.
About the creatures, i REALLY would like to see your list with Huntermasters on the MB, he is one of my favorite cards in MTG and i would love to use him more often, but since G1 we just want to combo ASAP he didin't seem to fit the theme.
Thragtusk seems loot slow for me, not sure if he is in there for Burn or some other stuff like Control too.
Inferno Titan is like Huntmaster, i just love to play him, the problem is that he is really easy to get rid off, but if the opponent can't you will probably win the game, i also agree on the Wurmocil, too many paths lately.
Not a big fan of Nature's Claim either but people always tell me it's better than Krosan because of CMC, there is like 1-2 Affinity decks on my meta so Ancient Grudge/Shatterstorm seemed unecessary.
I'm still brewing the SB so i'm open to all sorts of ideas, like i said, i expect a lot of Burn / Twin / Abzan variances on the next tournament (MM1 box as a prize).
No problem. My list looks like this (some slots still in flux):
I don't run Serum Visions since I despise the card in a deck full of shuffle effects. I do run a bit more "control elements" in the main such as the Bolts, Electrolyzes and Firespout, so I can grind out the games a bit more at the expense of having a sometimes harder to find Scapeshift. 24 lands always felt fine to me.
Repeal is a bit of a pet card, never phenomenal but ocasionaly quite useful. Firespout in the main is a concession to the fast decks that crop up. 3 Anticipates is something I tried last time I played with the deck (won a 6 round + top8 store credit event with reasonable players). The card felt ok, but 3 may be 1 too many. Its also possible I should be playing with Peer Through Depths, but given my higher than normal creature count in postboard games (and even preboard) I tend to not like it as much.
My sideboard is basically a ton of slots for BGx, some permission/boseiju/flash creatures for the blue matchups and then random cards depending on the particular field I expect (sometimes I add Shatterstorm and/or Grudge if I expect Affinity -- Grudge also great vs Infect). Clique is a bit of a liability at times since it turns on Electrolyze, but the information can be quite valuable. I don't dedicate a lot of slots for aggro matchups since I already run some amount of control elements in the main. Thragtusk is not slow in this deck because of the ramp. Its a viable strategy against Burn (combined with Huntmaster and Baloth). Huntmaster with ramp is also quite strong against a variety of decks. If I had to cut cards, Teferi is quite narrow but awesome against Twin; Clique, like I said, can be a bit meh at times.
The build runs a bit different than a lot of the blue-based Scapeshift decks in that it genuinely tries to play more like a control/ramp deck and less like a combo deck. It may be wrong to build it like this, but I like it (and Huntmaster is often a surprise if they don't see it game 1). I've worked on the list with a friend of mine (that recently won a MOCS monthly event and is a much better player than me), and at some point we even tried Keranos in the main -- I think he still has it there -- and Hornet Queen in the side.
How have you found huntmaster? Does it hedge effectively against fast aggro? Why is it in the main rather than the SB?
Firespout: This card does wonders against fast aggro. Going against an open field one can always expect a certain amount of decks trying to overwhelm you with Wild Nacatls, Tokens, or whathave you. Having three makes it easy to snag with cantrips. I could see going down to two, perhaps putting one in the main for something else in the board.
Obstinate Baloth: I've tried dicking around with all sorts of hedges against Abzan and Burn, but could never find a card that can do double duty quite as effectively as this big old 4/4. Having 4 turns Lili into a joke, helps a bit against Burn (which still feels unwinnable), and also helps against certain types discard heavy pox decks that you may encounter in early round of a tournament/FNM. Essentially, I recognize this card as a catch all and against our tough matchups and feel any number below two is a huge risk.
Nature's Claim: While it's 4 life clause can cause a game to be lost in every 1/100 games, it's utility and effectiveness as low CMC instant cannot be denied. Gravitating towards Krosan grip + Ancient grudge is something I've tried, but the flexibility of nature's claim I cant pull away from.
Dispel: Great against burn, great against twin. Simple and effective at forcing through a scape or deflecting a bolt to the face. A great generic answer.
Negate: I have been at one Negate for a long while, but with Burn and Twin so rampant I went up to two and have been loving it. Cheap countermagic is often underestimated. Also nice against Tron, but that's already nearly a guaranteed win. A third great generic answer.
Some people tend to gravitate towards a large number of killer one of's in their sideboard, and I have clearly opted for a board that is plump full of generic answers. Comments appreciated.
My personal philosophy with regards to sideboard building is this:
5ish fatties to bring in for various matchups. I always want at least a couple of Obstinate Baloth since it multitasks so well, but I also give consideration to Inferno Titan, Teferi, Thragtusk, Wurmcoil Engine, Keranos and more. Keranos seems really poor of late, as I always want Teferi more against Twin and against Abzan he just doesn't do quite enough to fit my liking.
5ish anti-control cards and counterspells. Dispel and especially Negate are sweet, but I am known to play Counterflux, Boseiju, Swan Song, Clique and gigadrowse from time to time.
The rest of the slots devoted to more aggressive matchups, including Affinity hate. I usually don't have room for Shatterstorm, but sweepers, Grudge, enchantment hate and random removal spells fall into this category.
I'm rather interested in trying out four Baloths, but losing a diverse range of options just seems bad to me. Engineered Explosives has been incredible in so many matchups in my experience, and I highly recommend playing one or two in the board.
basic sideboarding principle for scapeshift is to sideboard out bolts when they're bad (controlish match ups), and side out remands when they're bad (aggro match ups)
Grudge is excellent against Bloom, so if you're worried there I'd certainly find room for the second or a Nature's Claim if you want more answers to Blood Moon. If they're on the slow development plan, Counterflux becomes very good as well. There aren't any real hosers that we can seriously play.
Recently bought this deck online. Having good times, but I've suffered a bit of hosing from our dear friend Blood Moon.
My question is, should we pack hate for it in any matchup the opponent can cast it, or only when we have seen it/against known suspects like Twin?
I'm not totally cold to it mainboard, as I run 2x Repeal and the compulsory 4x Cryptic Command, and I have Krosan Grip and Back to Nature in the board.
TL:DR, side in Enchantment hate even when you aren't sure they are packing moons, or wait for confirmation?
Hope this stirs up a bit of chat back on this board too. Hugely valuable resource this thread is.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Fun is subjective; for some people it's Tarmogoyf, for others it's Lightning Bolt or Nephalia Drownyard or Emrakul, and the people who find fun in Past in Flames or Second Sunrise are just as correct as anyone else." u/ThisRedRock
TL:DR, side in Enchantment hate even when you aren't sure they are packing moons, or wait for confirmation?
I would say it depends on the MU in question. You certainly should for Twin, since those cards are also useful against the opposing combo. But against another deck that you think may side in Moon, it depends on how many viable targets you see game 1, and how many viable targets you think they kept in against you.
TL:DR, side in Enchantment hate even when you aren't sure they are packing moons, or wait for confirmation?
I would say it depends on the MU in question. You certainly should for Twin, since those cards are also useful against the opposing combo. But against another deck that you think may side in Moon, it depends on how many viable targets you see game 1, and how many viable targets you think they kept in against you.
Good advice, thanks.
I was caught out against Grixis Delver, not expecting to see the moon come down, being that he hosed himself off all his colours too, but I guess they can win through the moon whereas it's a lot harder for us.
Considering running a one of Vendilion Clique in the main, to give me that possibility of sometimes just beating someone to death with it, as well as being able to protect a Scapeshift and in some cases I guess even just Ambush Viper stuff.
I'm running a one-of Snapcaster Mage but considering going up to 2, in place of one of 2 Izzet Charms. Number of times I've cast Tiago targeting a Search for Tomorrow for the last land to 'shift is non-zero, and it's nice to have that flexibility.
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More than one Snappy is probably a good idea. Most lists run 2-3 because it's so versatile. Getting back Scapeshifts that were countered/discarded can be huge. I also tried Clique in the sb, but I never really liked it. It's not really great in any common matchups. I would also advise you keep Izzet Charm at 2. The card is incredible, as all 3 modes are useful to us, so it's never really dead.
More than one Snappy is probably a good idea. Most lists run 2-3 because it's so versatile. Getting back Scapeshifts that were countered/discarded can be huge. I also tried Clique in the sb, but I never really liked it. It's not really great in any common matchups. I would also advise you keep Izzet Charm at 2. The card is incredible, as all 3 modes are useful to us, so it's never really dead.
Thanks, I thought it was worth jamming Tiago in another slot, will probably go down a Repeal to fit him in.
Ok, I'll take your advice on Clique, I was thinking it probably only shines against Twin and other counterspell decks, and they tend to run Electrolyze which is the ultimate blowout.
On another note, I'm thinking about handing in my Valakuts. Got beaten by mono black devotion running Sadistic Sacrament. That one stung
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Is anyone running Primeval Titans in the main? I recently built a Jund Scapeshift list and top 4'd a pptq with 3 scapes and 3 titans (2 prime time, 1 inferno). It was a fun list but I love playing blue, so I'd like to go back to classic RUG. I would think the titan's fit in nicely as an alternative to scapeshift so you aren't as heavy in the combo. And usually connecting with a titan coupled with some valakut activations is lights out as it is. I'd like to know if anyone has any success with them
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Modern: UWR Breach, UWB Esper control
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Here to post my Modern Monday event stats. Prepare, I'm relatively new to the deck so they aren't great.
Round 1: Twin
Guy wasn't the nicest, but whatever. Game 1 I draw a ton of land but never see a Scapeshift, despite digging hard for it. Bolts and snaps get there. Game 2 I draw it out with a lot of burn and responses but never resolve a scapeshift. 0-2. I also mulligan to 5 both games.
Out:
-2 Repeal, -2 Anticipate, +2 Krosan Grip, +2 Baloth
Round 2: U/R Wildfire?
My buddy played against this guy in the first round so I had a vague idea of what I was up against. Game 1, he plays some mana rocks and mountains but can't do much else. Game 2, I remind him that Blood Moon will shut of Valakut (He told me he was going to board it out). He actually plays some stuff (Annex) and tries his hardest to resolve a Wildfire, but I had a counter for all but one. I still scapeshift for lethal.
Out: -4 Bolts, +2 Krosan Grip +2 Ancient Grudge
Round 3: B/W Zombies
Absolutely crushing matchup. Tore up my hand and played dudes that I had no removal for. 0-2
Round 4: Mono White D&T/Hatebears
Was a very interesting match. Game 1, he got there while I couldn't cast Scapeshift due to Leonin Arbiter and Thalia's immense presence. Game 2, He has a full board of dudes and I Scapeshift to clear the field (He was at 20, I was at 1.) I resolve a second Scapeshift later to clear the board again and put him at 14, leaving me with nothing in my deck but a Breeding Pool and Misty's. Sakura-Tribe Elder and eventually a Snapcaster beat him down to 0. Game 3 however, he plays an Arbiter on turns 2,3, and 4, and I scoop.
Out: -4 Remand +2 Firespout +2 Krosan Grip
Round 5 was a Bye.
Overall, I just need better experience with the aggresive matchups which I know are the worst. I also need to learn to Mulligan better haha.
Scapeshift has horrible burn, affinity, amulet, and infect match ups.
One of the better match ups in pod is gone.
For the deck to be better positioned, there need to be less turn 3/4 combo decks. The format needs to slow down, and it would help if the slow creature decks did not main deck thoughtseize. There needs to be more tron and control decks.
LOL Anyone else just skim this thread to read what rickster_ has to say? He's like a wise shepherd trying to herd cats.
Amulet is indeed a nightmare. So few truly relevant cards. And I'm sure everyone here has been spanked by burn multiple times. In fact, I'm getting desperate. I find myself waking in a cold sweat from dreams in which jank like Tree of Redemption saves me from the jaws of t4 death.
I still insist that affinity is not a hard matchup (unrelated note: it's a really FUN matchup). I'd put us somewhere around 50-60%. So many relevant cards, and it feels like the only matchup where RUG colors pack excellent hate.
The problem I'm currently having is figuring out how to beat all these zoo decks that keep popping up, without losing answers to the wackier aggro decks. I don't wanna play bolt at all, but I'm beginning to fear I'll have to...
Here to post my Modern Monday event stats. Prepare, I'm relatively new to the deck so they aren't great.
Round 1: Twin
Guy wasn't the nicest, but whatever. Game 1 I draw a ton of land but never see a Scapeshift, despite digging hard for it. Bolts and snaps get there. Game 2 I draw it out with a lot of burn and responses but never resolve a scapeshift. 0-2. I also mulligan to 5 both games.
Out:
-2 Repeal, -2 Anticipate, +2 Krosan Grip, +2 Baloth
Don't be boarding in the Baloths against Twin. I prefer just counterspells and enchantment hate.
----
What do people think of Mana Leak? The card has been playing well for me, as it hard answers Liliana without being as situational as IIzzet Charm. Opinions on Desolate Lighthouse would also be cool.
You need to post a decklist to see what cards you're playing to evaluate mana leak. There are a lot of flex slots in the deck. Hopefully you still have 4 remands main deck.
Mana leak is fine. But you can't run too many cards that don't work with scapeshift or cycle.
The deal with twin is that they can sometimes side out the combo, so baloth can be better than some other cards you have in your deck. Now how you know they took out the combo is another thing entirely.
UR Storm
RBG Dredge
EDH:
UR Mizzix
GB Gitrog
WB Daxos
Sounds pretty good if you've got the space. I'm not sure if it's worth it for a general metagame, though, because Delver isn't as one-drop heavy and it may be taking up space where more versatile cards could go.
2 Breeding Pool
2 Flooded Grove
2 Forest
3 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Mountain
4 Steam Vents
4 Stomping Ground
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Cryptic Command
4 Remand
4 Scapeshift
4 Search for Tomorrow
2 Electrolyze
2 Repeal
3 Izzet Charm
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Anticipate
1 Peer Through Depths
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Dispel
2 Firespout
1 Inferno Titan
1 Krosan Grip
2 Negate
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Shatterstorm
1 Swan Song
1 Teferi Mage of Zhalfir
1 Thragtusk
1 Vendilion Clique
I'm a big fan of Serum Visions, but couldn't find room for it in this build. I'm playing 3 Charms because I find it to be really powerful against Burn and gives additional cheap answers against Liliana of the Veil, which is pretty much your only way to lose to BGx.
My primary reason for playing Thragtusk is that it trades profitably with Siege Rhino while being as good (approximately) as Batterskull or Obstinate Baloth against Burn. My current counter/anti-blue suite is focused a bit more to beat Twin, but if you are preparing more for Abzan or combo decks I'd certainly find room for Counterflux. I really love Inferno Titan against any aggro decks, but once again if Abzan is your problem then Wurmcoil Engine is a better choice.
@sadmafloso I'm interested in your thoughts on Bolt in the main. I really, really hate maindecking that card because it always feels so bad to draw it without a Dig Through Time to catch me back up. I don't think it's worth playing given how bad the card is against Abzan and Twin. Your thoughts on my list would also be sweet.
RUGTemur ScapeshiftGUR
UWRJeskai ControlRWU
UGUG InfectGU
How have you found huntmaster? Does it hedge effectively against fast aggro? Why is it in the main rather than the SB?
I suppose the matchups we want to protect against the most in our SB are (in no particular order):
My current sideboard is looking something like this:
4 Obstinate Baloth
2 Dispel
2 Negate
2 Nature's Claim
2 Creeping Corrosion
My reasoning for each card:
Firespout: This card does wonders against fast aggro. Going against an open field one can always expect a certain amount of decks trying to overwhelm you with Wild Nacatls, Tokens, or whathave you. Having three makes it easy to snag with cantrips. I could see going down to two, perhaps putting one in the main for something else in the board.
Obstinate Baloth: I've tried dicking around with all sorts of hedges against Abzan and Burn, but could never find a card that can do double duty quite as effectively as this big old 4/4. Having 4 turns Lili into a joke, helps a bit against Burn (which still feels unwinnable), and also helps against certain types discard heavy pox decks that you may encounter in early round of a tournament/FNM. Essentially, I recognize this card as a catch all and against our tough matchups and feel any number below two is a huge risk.
Nature's Claim: While it's 4 life clause can cause a game to be lost in every 1/100 games, it's utility and effectiveness as low CMC instant cannot be denied. Gravitating towards Krosan grip + Ancient grudge is something I've tried, but the flexibility of nature's claim I cant pull away from.
Creeping Corrosion: Necessary Affinity hate.
Dispel: Great against burn, great against twin. Simple and effective at forcing through a scape or deflecting a bolt to the face. A great generic answer.
Negate: I have been at one Negate for a long while, but with Burn and Twin so rampant I went up to two and have been loving it. Cheap countermagic is often underestimated. Also nice against Tron, but that's already nearly a guaranteed win. A third great generic answer.
Some people tend to gravitate towards a large number of killer one of's in their sideboard, and I have clearly opted for a board that is plump full of generic answers. Comments appreciated.
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
For reference, my current 15:
1 Counterflux
1 Dispel
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Firespout
1 Inferno Titan
1 Nature's Claim
2 Negate
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Pyroclasm
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Thragtusk
1 Vendilion Clique
RUGTemur ScapeshiftGUR
UWRJeskai ControlRWU
UGUG InfectGU
RUGTemur ScapeshiftGUR
UWRJeskai ControlRWU
UGUG InfectGU
Recently bought this deck online. Having good times, but I've suffered a bit of hosing from our dear friend Blood Moon.
My question is, should we pack hate for it in any matchup the opponent can cast it, or only when we have seen it/against known suspects like Twin?
I'm not totally cold to it mainboard, as I run 2x Repeal and the compulsory 4x Cryptic Command, and I have Krosan Grip and Back to Nature in the board.
TL:DR, side in Enchantment hate even when you aren't sure they are packing moons, or wait for confirmation?
Hope this stirs up a bit of chat back on this board too. Hugely valuable resource this thread is.
u/ThisRedRock
I would say it depends on the MU in question. You certainly should for Twin, since those cards are also useful against the opposing combo. But against another deck that you think may side in Moon, it depends on how many viable targets you see game 1, and how many viable targets you think they kept in against you.
Good advice, thanks.
I was caught out against Grixis Delver, not expecting to see the moon come down, being that he hosed himself off all his colours too, but I guess they can win through the moon whereas it's a lot harder for us.
Considering running a one of Vendilion Clique in the main, to give me that possibility of sometimes just beating someone to death with it, as well as being able to protect a Scapeshift and in some cases I guess even just Ambush Viper stuff.
I'm running a one-of Snapcaster Mage but considering going up to 2, in place of one of 2 Izzet Charms. Number of times I've cast Tiago targeting a Search for Tomorrow for the last land to 'shift is non-zero, and it's nice to have that flexibility.
u/ThisRedRock
Modern
Value Town
Amulet Titan
Legacy
4C Loam
My Peasant Cube
http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/11667
Thanks, I thought it was worth jamming Tiago in another slot, will probably go down a Repeal to fit him in.
Ok, I'll take your advice on Clique, I was thinking it probably only shines against Twin and other counterspell decks, and they tend to run Electrolyze which is the ultimate blowout.
On another note, I'm thinking about handing in my Valakuts. Got beaten by mono black devotion running Sadistic Sacrament. That one stung
u/ThisRedRock
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Round 1: Twin
Guy wasn't the nicest, but whatever. Game 1 I draw a ton of land but never see a Scapeshift, despite digging hard for it. Bolts and snaps get there. Game 2 I draw it out with a lot of burn and responses but never resolve a scapeshift. 0-2. I also mulligan to 5 both games.
Out:
-2 Repeal, -2 Anticipate, +2 Krosan Grip, +2 Baloth
Round 2: U/R Wildfire?
My buddy played against this guy in the first round so I had a vague idea of what I was up against. Game 1, he plays some mana rocks and mountains but can't do much else. Game 2, I remind him that Blood Moon will shut of Valakut (He told me he was going to board it out). He actually plays some stuff (Annex) and tries his hardest to resolve a Wildfire, but I had a counter for all but one. I still scapeshift for lethal.
Out: -4 Bolts, +2 Krosan Grip +2 Ancient Grudge
Round 3: B/W Zombies
Absolutely crushing matchup. Tore up my hand and played dudes that I had no removal for. 0-2
Out: -4 Remand, -2 Repeal, +2 Baloth +2 Chalice +2 Firespout
Round 4: Mono White D&T/Hatebears
Was a very interesting match. Game 1, he got there while I couldn't cast Scapeshift due to Leonin Arbiter and Thalia's immense presence. Game 2, He has a full board of dudes and I Scapeshift to clear the field (He was at 20, I was at 1.) I resolve a second Scapeshift later to clear the board again and put him at 14, leaving me with nothing in my deck but a Breeding Pool and Misty's. Sakura-Tribe Elder and eventually a Snapcaster beat him down to 0. Game 3 however, he plays an Arbiter on turns 2,3, and 4, and I scoop.
Out: -4 Remand +2 Firespout +2 Krosan Grip
Round 5 was a Bye.
Overall, I just need better experience with the aggresive matchups which I know are the worst. I also need to learn to Mulligan better haha.
UR Storm
RBG Dredge
EDH:
UR Mizzix
GB Gitrog
WB Daxos
LOL Anyone else just skim this thread to read what rickster_ has to say? He's like a wise shepherd trying to herd cats.
Amulet is indeed a nightmare. So few truly relevant cards. And I'm sure everyone here has been spanked by burn multiple times. In fact, I'm getting desperate. I find myself waking in a cold sweat from dreams in which jank like Tree of Redemption saves me from the jaws of t4 death.
I still insist that affinity is not a hard matchup (unrelated note: it's a really FUN matchup). I'd put us somewhere around 50-60%. So many relevant cards, and it feels like the only matchup where RUG colors pack excellent hate.
The problem I'm currently having is figuring out how to beat all these zoo decks that keep popping up, without losing answers to the wackier aggro decks. I don't wanna play bolt at all, but I'm beginning to fear I'll have to...
Don't be boarding in the Baloths against Twin. I prefer just counterspells and enchantment hate.
----
What do people think of Mana Leak? The card has been playing well for me, as it hard answers Liliana without being as situational as IIzzet Charm. Opinions on Desolate Lighthouse would also be cool.
RUGTemur ScapeshiftGUR
UWRJeskai ControlRWU
UGUG InfectGU
Mana leak is fine. But you can't run too many cards that don't work with scapeshift or cycle.
The deal with twin is that they can sometimes side out the combo, so baloth can be better than some other cards you have in your deck. Now how you know they took out the combo is another thing entirely.