Pyroclasm seems a lot better than Path to Exile against all those Collected Company decks that are going around now.
It is. I played against a few. Ugin, the Spirit Dragon may also pick up in the meta game if Collected Company sees more and more play because -X kicks them down without persist being a factor and the +3 keeps them from rebuilding.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
as someone who plays the collected-elf deck, i can say the following things:
1) i don't care about pyroclasm. normally by the time the tron player can cast it, i've pumped my guys out of clasm range with lords.
2) ugin is an auto-lose. just simply "i win" for 8 mana.
3) don't care about spot removal or karn. the deck's too resilient.
the only games i've lost against tron have been when they resolve ugin. anything else is just a minor inconvenience.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Playing with Elves and Tron, sure, a Pyro here, an O Stone there will probably not be a hindrance to Elves. But all of those in conjunction is how I've been beating Elves pretty consistently. The only times I have lost to Elves is when they've had the nut hand and mine has been mediocre.
Otherwise a turn 2 Pyro, followed by a turn 4 O Stone into turn 5 Karn or turn 4 Ugin is largely game over.
How do we actually stop storm? I feel like its an auto lose against storm Do you guys mind if you share your sideboard?
Storm really needs one of two things to win via Grapeshot: Past In Flames or Pyromancer Ascension. If you can keep them from pulling those off, you win. Empty the Warrens can possibly end the game without those, but it takes longer and generally only is boarded in after the first game.
Your absolute best weapon against Storm is Relic of Progenitus. It completely cuts off Past In Flames as long as you keep a mana open. It isn't quite as good against Pyromancer Ascension, though, as it only takes out one card at a time and they can just exile their fetchlands. More frustratingly, the way priority works means that if they cast the same spell in succession, they get their trigger. For example, if they cast Serum Visions and it resolves, they can (as they still have priority) cast Serum Visions and trigger it before you get an opportunity to exile anything from their graveyard. This doesn't make it bad versus Pyromancer Ascension, it's actually still decent, particularly if you manage to get two Relics in play, but it doesn't completely stop it like it stops Past In Flames. Still, it still hurts Pyromancer Ascension, and completely cutting off Past In Flames is powerful enough by itself.
I really need to emphasize just how good Relic of Progenitus is here, especially if played maindeck. I actually had a Storm player complain about the GR Tron matchup due to them having to deal with Relic of Progenitus Game 1. The card is also easier to find thanks to Ancient Stirrings.
Pyromancer Ascension, meanwhile, can be hurt by Nature's Claim. Nature's Claim is very good in the Storm matchup for this reason (best time to use it is to wait until the trigger for the second counter is on the stack, then destroy the Ascension before they can get any use out of it), and it also will destroy the Blood Moons they'll sometimes board in.
Relic and Progenitus and Nature's Claim are probably your best general cards in this matchup because they hurt the most important cards: Pyromancer Ascension and Past In Flames.
Slaughter Games is also good against Storm, if sometimes a bit slow. Name Grapeshot and their best kill condition goes out the window, and they have to try to make do with Empty the Warrens or actually try to kill you with Lightning Bolt+Pyromancer Ascension (if they even have Lightning Bolt against you). Empty the Warrens is much less of a problem because it's a slower kill and can be killed by Pyroclasm, which you should be keeping in for this reason (also because it kills Goblin Electromancer).
Now, you asked for decklists and sideboarding thoughts. My current build is this:
Now, if I'm worried about Storm, the Relics would probably go to the mainboard, but I'm more fearful of Burn/Twin/Infect, hence the Spellskites. My sideboarding plan against Storm would be:
-2 Wurmcoil Engine
-3 Oblivion Stone
-4 Spellskite
-1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
-1 Ghost Quarter
+1 Llanowar Wastes
+4 Nature's Claim
+3 Relic of Progenitus
+3 Slaughter Games
-Wurmcoil Engine is generally unimpressive against Storm, but I still feel that keeping one in is useful for the cases where you want to put pressure on them but aren't at Emrakul mana yet. Also, if they end up pulling off a weakened Empty the Warrens, it can still for you. Speaking of Emrakul, while he is a bit slow, you do want a way to quickly seal up the game once you've managed to make them stumble, and Emrakul does that. Ugin and Oblivion Stone are too slow for obvious reasons; they're best used to take out a Goblin Electromancer or Pyromancer Ascension, but cost so much mana that by the time you can cast them, the game is generally over one way or the other. Spellskite is obviously dead. Ghost Quarter really doesn't do much of anything here, as they don't have any utility lands.
For the record, if I somehow had even more cards to bring in, my next card to remove would be Oblivion Stone #4 followed by some copies of Karn Liberated.
Thanks. I actually managed to land a wurmcoil engine on turn 3 and was beating him down to one life with 32 life. Unfortunately he still managed to go off despite me having such high life point. I guess I will start putting slaughter games back.
I can second everything LS just said; Relic is really huge against Storm. My friend runs it as his usual deck so I get to play against it pretty regularly. I still run 2 in my MD so whenever I hit a Relic it really puts the brakes on them just enough for me to get control of the game.
Post board I bring the other 2 Relics, some amount of Claims, and some extra Pyroclasms for any ETW shenanigans.
I see Slaughter Games in quite a few sideboards but I can't quite comprehend it. I've tried using it myself but it seems like you have to jump through too many hoops and dedicate a lot of sideboard space to do something which doesn't win you the game. Sure you can take out Splinter Twin for example but that's only IF you get the perfect Mana turn 4 or 5 and they couldn't go off yet. Then by casting it you're already way behind as Twin's tempo game is great and you're pretty dead regardless.
Also I can't think of other good decks that rely on specific cards enough to make Slaughter Games worth while.
All in all I'm having quite a bit of trouble deciding on sideboard cards. I'll probably make sure to go up to 4 Spellskite in total and some Rending Volleys.
Slaughter Games isn't really that good against twin. The card is mainly for Scapeshift, where it does actually win you the game in certain cases, unless the Scapeshift player boarded in an alternate wincon (Batterskull, Inferno Titan.) I'm not sure what other matchups I would bring it in for.
Slaughter Games isn't really that good against twin. The card is mainly for Scapeshift, where it does actually win you the game in certain cases, unless the Scapeshift player boarded in an alternate wincon (Batterskull, Inferno Titan.) I'm not sure what other matchups I would bring it in for.
A few decks that come to mind are:
Storm (name Grapeshot then Empty the Warrens)
Ad Nauseam (name Ad Nauseam)
Living End (name Living End)
Bloom Titan (name either Hivemind or Primeval Titan depending on the situation)
Griselcannon (highly dependent on the situation, but you should be naming Goryo's Vengeance, Through the Breach, Emrakul, or Griselbrand)
Eternal Command (name Cryptic Command to stop their lockout)
GR Tron (Karn Liberated then Emrakul)
Monoblue Tron (Mindslaver, which is basically their only way to beat you)
Eggs (name Krark-Clan Ironworks; in the unlikely event that it's in play and they haven't beaten you yet, name either Faith's Reward or Empty the Vaults)
With modern season coming soon and lacking of real Karn Tron list, I made some slight adjustment with a one card combo TNN. I had a very little success and very few experience in modern but with Tron lands, people did not expect the win con is TNN. My locals are full with Burn, Affinity, a few Jund and some Bogle.
I've been playing a fairly stock Gr Tron list for years now. I think the last new card I added to it was Slaughter Games during RTR, and I put it on the shelf for a while for an ill-fated fling with Pod. My interest in modern waned after the last round of bannings, but I'm ready to give it another shot and dust off Tron.
Looking at recent results, the main change lately appears to be 1-2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. I'm wondering what people's experiences are with that card?. I resisted picking them up at first, both to avoid shelling out standard prices for a flavor of the month card and because it seemed "win more" with Karn, Wurmcoil, etc. My games usually hinge on whether I find Tron and whether I have an o-stone or pyroclasm to survive to 7+. However, I have certainly had a few games where I get Tron online just in time to make Karn a very expensive Path to Exile, or where a Wurmcoil Engine eating a single attacker is not enough to survive an alpha strike. I can see where a repeatable All is Dust could be better for stabilizing when I'm on my back foot.
So basically, I'm wondering:
Is Ugin here to stay? An essential part of the deck?
What are people cutting for him? My first thought was Ulamog, but the lists I've seen keep Ulamog in. I've used my "flex" spots for a pair of main board Spellskite, and I'm hesitant to cut those with infect and burn being popular budget choices in my local meta.
I think Ugin x2 is going to be close to standard for the list for the foreseeable future. Against any deck that has to rely on playing regular dudes to win, a T4 Ugin is usually an instant loss for them. This happens more often than not.
My current lineup of "big colorless things" is 1 Emrakul, 3 Wurmcoil, 3 O-Stone, 4 Karn, 2 Ugin. People will probably say that it's more correct to play 4 Stone before considering Ugin but I find Ugin's repeatability to be worth the cost flexibility of a single Stone. I keep the fourth in the board so I still have access to it when I need it. I also have triple Spellskite in the MD. To make room, I have taken all of my Relics out of the MD and moved two to the SB. So 1 Stone, 4 Relic become 2 Ugin, 3 Spellskite. I'm also seeing some people move a single Pyro to the SB as a flex slot for Ugins or what have you.
In my list I run 3 ugins in place of 2 relics and 1 o stone. I have 1 relic in the sideboard to have access to them against the decks that I need them. Might consider dropping to 2 ugins for a relic but for what Ugin does I like having the control of three.
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Modern Decks: RGTron WRBurn (updating) UMerfolk (Testing and Finishing) UWR Jeskai Midrange (Planning stages)
First time i've played my tron list since... atleast a year ago or more.
I want to ask what you guys think of my mainboard + the sideboard i threw together when i had 10 minutes left before the buss arrived..
I went 1-3.
First match was UWR Burn control and i won 2-0.
Second match was Infect and i sideboarded wrong, should've kept pyroclasms.
lost 0-2
Third match i fought Splintertwin and i always feel like that matchup is impossible.
Managed to get out Torpor Orbs on turn 2 so he had to flood the board with creatures.
I play colorless when i can, i don't like affinity but i casting Karn on turn 3 is pretty good.
I love the deck and im planning to try it out next modern monday.
What new cards got released lately that i should run?
Well, you should make room for three Rending Volley in your sideboard. Very good sideboard option against Twin. I would advise probably removing the Chalice and two Surgical Extractions. 2-3 Spellskites in the main is also very good and helps against Infect and Twin.
I play colorless when i can, i don't like affinity but i casting Karn on turn 3 is pretty good.
I love the deck and im planning to try it out next modern monday.
What new cards got released lately that i should run?
Thank you in advance
I honestly think infect is Tron's worst matchup. There is very little you can do pre or post board to make it manageable. If you are looking for any tips, keep in the 4 pyroclasm, take one forest out of your MD and replace it with a second ghost quarter. You need to be able to fight their man-lands. Just hope they dont have a fantastic start and that you can match their Inkmoth Nexus' with your GQs.
Against Twin, you can bring in hate that hits other Matchups too: Rending Volley is a great tool to get them to commit to the combo and be tapped out so you can drop a threat and establish a board presence. I have always thought that the matchup is all about how well you know the other deck and what possible plays they can make. I may be biased, but I NEVER feel like Twin is out of reach. Pre-board it is difficult and probably favors them 60-40. You need a T3 Tron and they cannot have the T4 combo. Post board, I think the numbers are much much closer to 50-50 (and depending on your board, I might even say the numbers favor us post-board). This matchup will take a lot of practice and never just throw up your hands and admit defeat. Twin plays get cocky against Tron and I have blown many of them out because of it.
Final Twin note(s): If you are on the play, you can tap out for a T3 karn. They either have to remand it, or you can hit their land and they cannot combo the following turn. After Tron has been established, make ALL of your plays before dropping mana. It is nearly impossible for them to predict your next play if they are unsure or how much mana you have. For example: If you have T3 Tron and on T4 you have an O-stone, Karn, Tower, you play out ostone first. If they remand it, drop the tower and play Karn. Never show how much mana you can generate when you think they have a remand up make them work with as little info as possible and bait them into a non-ideal play. Of course, this can change if you expect something like mana leak.
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EDH RGOmnath, Locus of ManaRG URThe Locust godUR
Modern UWMiraclesUW
Legacy BGIce Station Zebra (Living Fins)BG UBRGrixis ControlUBR RGLandsRG
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candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
1) i don't care about pyroclasm. normally by the time the tron player can cast it, i've pumped my guys out of clasm range with lords.
2) ugin is an auto-lose. just simply "i win" for 8 mana.
3) don't care about spot removal or karn. the deck's too resilient.
the only games i've lost against tron have been when they resolve ugin. anything else is just a minor inconvenience.
Otherwise a turn 2 Pyro, followed by a turn 4 O Stone into turn 5 Karn or turn 4 Ugin is largely game over.
Your absolute best weapon against Storm is Relic of Progenitus. It completely cuts off Past In Flames as long as you keep a mana open. It isn't quite as good against Pyromancer Ascension, though, as it only takes out one card at a time and they can just exile their fetchlands. More frustratingly, the way priority works means that if they cast the same spell in succession, they get their trigger. For example, if they cast Serum Visions and it resolves, they can (as they still have priority) cast Serum Visions and trigger it before you get an opportunity to exile anything from their graveyard. This doesn't make it bad versus Pyromancer Ascension, it's actually still decent, particularly if you manage to get two Relics in play, but it doesn't completely stop it like it stops Past In Flames. Still, it still hurts Pyromancer Ascension, and completely cutting off Past In Flames is powerful enough by itself.
I really need to emphasize just how good Relic of Progenitus is here, especially if played maindeck. I actually had a Storm player complain about the GR Tron matchup due to them having to deal with Relic of Progenitus Game 1. The card is also easier to find thanks to Ancient Stirrings.
Pyromancer Ascension, meanwhile, can be hurt by Nature's Claim. Nature's Claim is very good in the Storm matchup for this reason (best time to use it is to wait until the trigger for the second counter is on the stack, then destroy the Ascension before they can get any use out of it), and it also will destroy the Blood Moons they'll sometimes board in.
Relic and Progenitus and Nature's Claim are probably your best general cards in this matchup because they hurt the most important cards: Pyromancer Ascension and Past In Flames.
Slaughter Games is also good against Storm, if sometimes a bit slow. Name Grapeshot and their best kill condition goes out the window, and they have to try to make do with Empty the Warrens or actually try to kill you with Lightning Bolt+Pyromancer Ascension (if they even have Lightning Bolt against you). Empty the Warrens is much less of a problem because it's a slower kill and can be killed by Pyroclasm, which you should be keeping in for this reason (also because it kills Goblin Electromancer).
Now, you asked for decklists and sideboarding thoughts. My current build is this:
4 Spellskite
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Karn Liberated
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
4 Expedition Map
4 Oblivion Stone
3 Pyroclasm
4 Sylvan Scrying
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Mountain
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
1 Feed the Clan
1 Life from the Loam
1 Llanowar Wastes
4 Nature's Claim
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Rending Volley
3 Slaughter Games
Now, if I'm worried about Storm, the Relics would probably go to the mainboard, but I'm more fearful of Burn/Twin/Infect, hence the Spellskites. My sideboarding plan against Storm would be:
-2 Wurmcoil Engine
-3 Oblivion Stone
-4 Spellskite
-1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
-1 Ghost Quarter
+1 Llanowar Wastes
+4 Nature's Claim
+3 Relic of Progenitus
+3 Slaughter Games
-Wurmcoil Engine is generally unimpressive against Storm, but I still feel that keeping one in is useful for the cases where you want to put pressure on them but aren't at Emrakul mana yet. Also, if they end up pulling off a weakened Empty the Warrens, it can still for you. Speaking of Emrakul, while he is a bit slow, you do want a way to quickly seal up the game once you've managed to make them stumble, and Emrakul does that. Ugin and Oblivion Stone are too slow for obvious reasons; they're best used to take out a Goblin Electromancer or Pyromancer Ascension, but cost so much mana that by the time you can cast them, the game is generally over one way or the other. Spellskite is obviously dead. Ghost Quarter really doesn't do much of anything here, as they don't have any utility lands.
For the record, if I somehow had even more cards to bring in, my next card to remove would be Oblivion Stone #4 followed by some copies of Karn Liberated.
Post board I bring the other 2 Relics, some amount of Claims, and some extra Pyroclasms for any ETW shenanigans.
Also I can't think of other good decks that rely on specific cards enough to make Slaughter Games worth while.
All in all I'm having quite a bit of trouble deciding on sideboard cards. I'll probably make sure to go up to 4 Spellskite in total and some Rending Volleys.
Modern
Value Town
Amulet Titan
Legacy
4C Loam
My Peasant Cube
http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/11667
Storm (name Grapeshot then Empty the Warrens)
Ad Nauseam (name Ad Nauseam)
Living End (name Living End)
Bloom Titan (name either Hivemind or Primeval Titan depending on the situation)
Griselcannon (highly dependent on the situation, but you should be naming Goryo's Vengeance, Through the Breach, Emrakul, or Griselbrand)
Eternal Command (name Cryptic Command to stop their lockout)
GR Tron (Karn Liberated then Emrakul)
Monoblue Tron (Mindslaver, which is basically their only way to beat you)
Eggs (name Krark-Clan Ironworks; in the unlikely event that it's in play and they haven't beaten you yet, name either Faith's Reward or Empty the Vaults)
1 Archetype of Endurance
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Platinum Angel
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
Planeswalker
2 Karn Liberated
Spells
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
4 Expedition Map
3 Oblivion Stone
4 Pyroclasm
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Tooth and Nail
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Eye of Ugin
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Stomping Ground
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
2 All Is Dust
1 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
4 Nature's Claim
2 Pithing Needle
3 Rending Volley
2 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
With modern season coming soon and lacking of real Karn Tron list, I made some slight adjustment with a one card combo TNN. I had a very little success and very few experience in modern but with Tron lands, people did not expect the win con is TNN. My locals are full with Burn, Affinity, a few Jund and some Bogle.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
Looking at recent results, the main change lately appears to be 1-2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. I'm wondering what people's experiences are with that card?. I resisted picking them up at first, both to avoid shelling out standard prices for a flavor of the month card and because it seemed "win more" with Karn, Wurmcoil, etc. My games usually hinge on whether I find Tron and whether I have an o-stone or pyroclasm to survive to 7+. However, I have certainly had a few games where I get Tron online just in time to make Karn a very expensive Path to Exile, or where a Wurmcoil Engine eating a single attacker is not enough to survive an alpha strike. I can see where a repeatable All is Dust could be better for stabilizing when I'm on my back foot.
So basically, I'm wondering:
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My current lineup of "big colorless things" is 1 Emrakul, 3 Wurmcoil, 3 O-Stone, 4 Karn, 2 Ugin. People will probably say that it's more correct to play 4 Stone before considering Ugin but I find Ugin's repeatability to be worth the cost flexibility of a single Stone. I keep the fourth in the board so I still have access to it when I need it. I also have triple Spellskite in the MD. To make room, I have taken all of my Relics out of the MD and moved two to the SB. So 1 Stone, 4 Relic become 2 Ugin, 3 Spellskite. I'm also seeing some people move a single Pyro to the SB as a flex slot for Ugins or what have you.
Modern
RGTron
Legacy
UBRDelver
Also Playing:
Dragon Ball Z TCG
RGTron
WRBurn (updating)
UMerfolk (Testing and Finishing)
UWR Jeskai Midrange (Planning stages)
First time i've played my tron list since... atleast a year ago or more.
I want to ask what you guys think of my mainboard + the sideboard i threw together when i had 10 minutes left before the buss arrived..
I went 1-3.
First match was UWR Burn control and i won 2-0.
Second match was Infect and i sideboarded wrong, should've kept pyroclasms.
lost 0-2
Third match i fought Splintertwin and i always feel like that matchup is impossible.
Managed to get out Torpor Orbs on turn 2 so he had to flood the board with creatures.
My big threats got remanded.
Lost 0-2
Fourth match i had to face Burn, and lets say Atarka's Command does not make the matchup easier.
After sideboard he brought in 4 Molten Rain, x Smash to Smithereensand 4 Destructive Revelry.
Lost 0-2
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Sundering Titan
1 Spellskite
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Pyroclasm
1 All is Dust
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Karn Liberated
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
4 Oblivion Stone
2 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Tower
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Batterskull
1 Beast Within
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Torpor Orb
3 Nature's Claim
1 Pithing Needle
I play colorless when i can, i don't like affinity but i casting Karn on turn 3 is pretty good.
I love the deck and im planning to try it out next modern monday.
What new cards got released lately that i should run?
Thank you in advance
Who needs Colours?
My most played EDH deck:
X Kozilek, the Great Distortion
UBR Nekusar, the Mindrazer
Modern
RGTron
Legacy
UBRDelver
Also Playing:
Dragon Ball Z TCG
If you want to make the UWR control MU better, run things like defense grid or Boil. Both hit the deck VERY hard.
Edit: This was in response to the Banefire suggestion.
RGOmnath, Locus of ManaRG
URThe Locust godUR
Modern
UWMiraclesUW
Legacy
BGIce Station Zebra (Living Fins)BG
UBRGrixis ControlUBR
RGLandsRG
I honestly think infect is Tron's worst matchup. There is very little you can do pre or post board to make it manageable. If you are looking for any tips, keep in the 4 pyroclasm, take one forest out of your MD and replace it with a second ghost quarter. You need to be able to fight their man-lands. Just hope they dont have a fantastic start and that you can match their Inkmoth Nexus' with your GQs.
Against Twin, you can bring in hate that hits other Matchups too: Rending Volley is a great tool to get them to commit to the combo and be tapped out so you can drop a threat and establish a board presence. I have always thought that the matchup is all about how well you know the other deck and what possible plays they can make. I may be biased, but I NEVER feel like Twin is out of reach. Pre-board it is difficult and probably favors them 60-40. You need a T3 Tron and they cannot have the T4 combo. Post board, I think the numbers are much much closer to 50-50 (and depending on your board, I might even say the numbers favor us post-board). This matchup will take a lot of practice and never just throw up your hands and admit defeat. Twin plays get cocky against Tron and I have blown many of them out because of it.
Final Twin note(s): If you are on the play, you can tap out for a T3 karn. They either have to remand it, or you can hit their land and they cannot combo the following turn. After Tron has been established, make ALL of your plays before dropping mana. It is nearly impossible for them to predict your next play if they are unsure or how much mana you have. For example: If you have T3 Tron and on T4 you have an O-stone, Karn, Tower, you play out ostone first. If they remand it, drop the tower and play Karn. Never show how much mana you can generate when you think they have a remand up make them work with as little info as possible and bait them into a non-ideal play. Of course, this can change if you expect something like mana leak.
RGOmnath, Locus of ManaRG
URThe Locust godUR
Modern
UWMiraclesUW
Legacy
BGIce Station Zebra (Living Fins)BG
UBRGrixis ControlUBR
RGLandsRG