MTG Salvation

Quote from Nemesis1989 »

How we survive to crumble to dust,yesterday a nahiri deck blow me twice with that *****,im thinking on ghost quarter or warping wail,wich is better?

After trying both I believe Warping Wail is better. In part because opponent typically doesn't know if you have it. Also Wail has other relevance such as countering their Bring to Light, killing their Snapcaster or whatever.

Alright, I know I'm a little late to the party, but I'll chime in with my thoughts on Emrakul2.
1. Emrakul2 is very close in power level to Newlamog. I don't know for sure whether it's slightly better or slightly worse, but anyone claiming that it's unplayable in the face of Newlamog is very mistaken.
2. I will be slightly bullish and say in fact, Emrakul2 will be slightly better than Newlamog, and I will say why below.

First of all, I want to go way back to when Tron was first being developed, and the modern Modern was still a very young format. The first builds of Tron did not run the Eye package, but 4 Mindslaver and (sometimes) the Ruins lock off of a playset of Prophetic Prisms. This competed with and eventually was replaced by the pre-BFZ builds that ran the Eye package. However, even more modern Tron builds often ran some number of Mindslavers in the SB. They weren't a mainstay by any means, but they were still very good in the MUs that were good.

Some discussion on the old Mindslaver builds: the power of Mindslaver in Gr Tron was never in the lock, but in the power of a single Mindslaver activation. Whenever you played and activated Mindslaver, one of two things would generally happen.
1. Your opponent conceded.
2. You emptied your opponent out of threatening cards, and you and your opponent would play draw-go until one of you hit something that could win you the game (hint: it was generally the Tron player)
Rarely, your opponent could stitch together a win before you could get your act together, or you would have the nuts and simply untap and win. But these were the exceptions and not the rule.

Now let's compare Emrakul2 to Mindslaver and Ulamog. They all cost roughly 10 mana. In a deck with ~6 must-deal-with planeswalkers ~3-4 instants, and even up to 2 creatures, Emrakul2's a card that realistically costs 10+/-1 mana. GY hate is pretty poor against us, and if our opponent is spending time playing GY hate, I'll gladly play more relevant cards.

1. Compared to Mindslaver, Emrakul2's generally a better card. The times when Mindslaver is the better card revolve around when you have the lock or some play that truly wins the game when you untap. However, Emrakul2 is like playing a Mindslaver, taking your next turn, and immediately tapping out for the Emrakul2 body. The Emrakul2 body is something that is worth spending a turn for, and the scenario of giving your opponent a single turn after Mindslavering them and slamming it is very reminiscent to me of when you would slam threats on a post-slaver turn; except in this case, you don't need both the Slaver and the threats to back it up. The cases where you'd play draw-go are no longer applicable; you have your long-term threat. Additionally, Mindslaver has historically been a card powerful against control decks, and against those decks Emrakul2 represents an uncounterable Mindslaver (regardless of whether they counter the body). Additionally, against non-control decks, the up-front threat means that Emrakul2 actually powers up your Slaver turn by providing a body to crash into.

2. With the manabases in Modern as well as the prevalence of Lightning Bolt (both on your opponent's side and potentially yours), the odds of you untapping and winning after giving your opponent a single turn are high. Most opponents will generally shock themselves to 14-16 life, and the fact that you can control that number further by their own shocks and fetches and their own Bolts means you will often get to untap with an opponent at 13 or less life.

3. In comparison to Newlamog, I think Emrakul2 stacks up quite favorably. There are certain popular matchups where Emrakul2's trigger wins the game, which have been noted (certain combo decks). However, what's been noted less are the matchups where Emrakul2's trigger doesn't win the game, but is still often better than Newlamog's. These include critical mass decks like Burn and Mill, where your opponent can often untap and kill you after losing a couple lands. What's harder for these decks is to untap and kill you after you spend all their spells. Additionally, Emrakul2's 13-power has the strong possibility of being a 1-turn clock, unlike Newlamog's mill ability that is mostly irrelevant outside of the combo decks that Emrakul2's cast trigger destroys anyway.

4. The only matchup I can think of where Newlamog's strictly better than Emrakul2 is Company. However, Company is still a good MU, and Emrakul2's still good vs Company. Even if they have the infinite life combo assembled, I generally see us winning those games. Because when you cast Emrakul2:
A. Your opponent has to put something you can't use against them on top (think something like Finks)
B. Your opponent has to sac their own Seer.
C. You untap and run them out of Chords/Companies (possibly Pathing their own creatures) and crash their most threatening creature into Emrakul2.
D. You probably still end up winning the long game with Karn.
Even in the mirrors, the MUs where Newlamog's trigger is often portrayed as the most breaking, Mindslaver's a card that absolutely tears apart the mirror in the same way. You can make the case for Newlamog being slightly better, but Slaver is usually just as good between Karn, their own Newlamogs, and even Maps and Scryings if they have GQ.

5. Last but not least, Emrakul2 is invulnerable to the premier removal spell in Modern: Path. Often, Path is so omnipresent that I view Newlamog as: Exile 2 permanents. Rampant Growth. A fine card, but not at the raw power level of Emrakul2. The only Modern-playable cards that can kill Emrakul2 are Pulse, Dreadbore, Liliana, and Wraths. In the case of the former 2 you'll generally be able to rip them out of their hands, and if your opponent has the Wrath they probably don't win post-Wrath post-Slaver, and it's a card they'll generally SB out anyways. Liliana can be dealt with unless it's at exactly 4 or 5 loyalty, and if you draw your opponent into ticking it to 6, you win on the spot. Given that, your opponent has a draw step to find a Dreadbore or Pulse, cards that are run with far less frequency than Path. Any Dreadbores/Pulses/Lillies they were holding become useless the moment they get Slavered.

Given all this, is there a strong argument for Newlamog over Emrakul2? I'm still cautious in my initial assessment, but I feel strongly that Emrakul2 is a very underrated card. I very fondly remember the days when Mindslaver was a mainstay in Tron, and this card in Mindslaver on steroids.

BONUS: I think that Emrakul2 opens up very interesting options for the mono-green Eldrazi Temple versions of Tron. I think that RG Tron will still be better, but Slaver Tron used to run cards like Explore and Talismans, and sometimes even cut red just to power out an early Slaver. Having "free" ramp, as well as additional creatures and Fogs to reduce Emrakul2's cost makes for a powerful combination. I don't think the deck becomes a powerhouse compared to RG Tron, but I feel it becomes far more playable with Emrakul2 than with Newlamog.

@Slivortal nice summary. What is your assessment of Savage Summoning with Nemrakul? Flash her into play uncounterably in opponent's end of turn, as a 14/14. Or will the +G mana cost entail too much delay?

Quote from vonklaude »

@Slivortal nice summary. What is your assessment of Savage Summoning with Nemrakul? Flash her into play uncounterably in opponent's end of turn, as a 14/14. Or will the +G mana cost entail too much delay?

The expensive creature slot in Tron is supposed to be a threat that ends the game in and of itself, and Emrakul2 excels at that. I don't think it particularly needs Savage Summoning to fulfill its role of finishing the game, and I feel that slot would be much better served by some sort of disruption, such as Fog or Lightning Bolt (that lets you get to the stage of the game in which you have 10 mana).

Quote from vonklaude »

@Slivortal nice summary. What is your assessment of Savage Summoning with Nemrakul? Flash her into play uncounterably in opponent's end of turn, as a 14/14. Or will the +G mana cost entail too much delay?

If you want a uncounterable Emrakul, the Promised End, Cavern of Souls is the better option.
Also very good summary by Slivortal.

Quote from SBurani »

Quote from vonklaude »

@Slivortal nice summary. What is your assessment of Savage Summoning with Nemrakul? Flash her into play uncounterably in opponent's end of turn, as a 14/14. Or will the +G mana cost entail too much delay?

If you want a uncounterable Emrakul, the Promised End, Cavern of Souls is the better option.
Also very good summary by Slivortal.

I don't want an uncounterable one (although that is a bonus), I want one cast in opponent's EOT. That limits their opportunity to prepare themselves. Then it is our turn: our 14/14 flying trampler can attack if desired. Then it is their turn under our control. Then finally they take a turn under their own control.

Quote from vonklaude »

Quote from SBurani »

Quote from vonklaude »

@Slivortal nice summary. What is your assessment of Savage Summoning with Nemrakul? Flash her into play uncounterably in opponent's end of turn, as a 14/14. Or will the +G mana cost entail too much delay?

If you want a uncounterable Emrakul, the Promised End, Cavern of Souls is the better option.
Also very good summary by Slivortal.

I don't want an uncounterable one (although that is a bonus), I want one cast in opponent's EOT. That limits their opportunity to prepare themselves. Then it is our turn: our 14/14 flying trampler can attack if desired. Then it is their turn under our control. Then finally they take a turn under their own control.

I mean, it's a cute interaction. Flash and pro-instants makes it a pseudo-Teferi in that your opponents never get a chance to answer it.

The primary problem is that Savage Summoning is a very niche card in that it's only good when you have your finisher and the mana to cast it. The secondary problem is that Emrakul2 is very resilient vs both removal and counters already, so it becomes even more difficult to justify the card's inclusion.

If there was a way to give it flash that was a little more flexible or intuitive, it would be a very tempting option. However, the payoff of Savage Summoning isn't worth the opportunity cost of including it in your 60, unfortunately.

Tested Newmrakul again last night--a bit against Burn, more against Ad Nauseam, more against Medium Naya Zoo and Bant Eldrazi, the most against Jund.

I'd still rather Conduit of Ruin for Kozilek, the Great Distortion against Burn. The one time I got to cast Newmrakul against Burn so far, I had to cast her after Turn 5, then I found that Burn had no spells in hand and topdecked a land. At least I killed both their creatures by slamming them into Newmrakul and Thought-Knot Seer, but dagnabbit, I was lucky against Burn, as I was one burn spell away from being dead at the time, yet still won.

The Ad Nauseam games generally went well (I either can't get Tron or I mana denial, Warping Wail, and TKS my way to stability), but I won my first game with Newmrakul and without Ad Nauseam or Pact of Negation (or Spoils of the Vault, which I don't test against). Turns out that burning up all their Angel's Graces, giving them garbage for Sleight of Hand, and burning up their Pentad Prism was good enough.

Only got off one Newmrakul against Zoo so far. I wasn't confident in her at the time because all they had was 1 Loxodon Smiter, but I drew another Smiter, Path to Exiled the drawn Smiter, crashed the older Smiter into Newmrakul, and won after that.

The one time I got against Bant Eldrazi was even worse. All I could do with Newmrakul's Slaver turn was cast Reality Smasher and crash it into her. I couldn't even cast Eldrazi Displacer or get rid of it, and thank goodness I eventually topdecked Ugin or Displacer would have locked her up for the rest of the game instead of just turns straight.

Surprisingly, Newmrakul performed the worst against Jund. Twice, I was only able to eliminate one of Jund's cards with her. The first time was smash-Goyf-into-Newmrakul, stare at lands in hand. The second time was -2 Liliana and kill Scavenging Ooze with it, then stare at lands in hand. ...Then Liliana still had enough loyalty to kill Newmrakul afterwards. I did get a good game where I Abrupt Decayed Goyf and Terminated Newlamog, but that was definitely the exception.

Overall, I'm finding that the first Newlamog is solidly better than the first Newmrakul (Scapeshift and Ad Nauseam often cannot recover from Newlamog, anyway) because it's cheaper and more reliable. In order to Conduit into Turn 4 Newmrakul, I need Turn 1 Chromatic Egg, Turn 2 Sylvan Scrying, Turn 3 Conduit, Turn 4 Tron land. Way too often, I don't get that sequence--I get Turn 1 Expedition Map or Turn 4 non-Tron land. (OK, I guess natural Tron, extra Tron land, Turn 1 Chromatic, and Turn 2 instant also works, but that's even rarer.)

And against Burn, I'm therefore Conduiting for New Kozi instead. I need Burn locked out as quickly as possible, and I can't lock them out with Newmrakul imprisoned in hand.

I do generally prefer the first Newmrakul over the second Newlamog, though, just for the extra percentage points against combo.

But if I could only pack 2 Eldrazi Titans in Tron, I'm picking Newlamog and New Kozi. I haven't found a matchup where Newmrakul is good, the other two suck, and I don't get LD'd into oblivion.

...Although I should test the Goryo's Vengeance match-up, as they can win on 2 lands instead of 4 and it's hilariously hard to counter Through the Breach or anything spliced onto Nourishing Shoal.

But how will you drop Oath of Nissa in your grave ? We need to remember that we will (if played) search Newrakul with Sanctum, and it has to be sacrificed. I see her costing 10 mana most of the time.

Hey everyone.im trying to make a move from utron to rg or gx tron and I'm having issues.I have only two burnwillows (one is foil) but other than that I have the mana base covered but I don't like eldrazzi so I've been running 2 s titans and ugins.And mindslaver combo.
I can't get a decent win with it.I follow the thread,have all the tricks but without counterspells that I'm used to having I'm getting wrecked.
I cant drop anything without it being removed one way or another.One thought was adding synod sanctum.It can save tron lands too.
So my question is with all the removal how am I supposed to get anything to resolve?
Do I really need ulamog or karn to solve this since I can still usually get tron online.

I have old karns not the new walker ones.Thats too bad.
I'll proxie a few for the kitchen table run and see how it fairs.
Thanks.

Played in a 4-round Modern event today with GR Tron today. My list was



Round 1 vs Grixis Control
Game 1 he had a quick Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Creeping Tar Pit and I wasn't able to assemble Tron quickly enough.
Game 2 I took out 1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger and 1 Oblivion Stone for 2 Warping Wail. I played horribly, probably the worst I've ever played with the deck. Missed Kozilek's Return triggers, forgot I could recur World Breaker, and sacrificed my lone Urza's Power Plant to get World Breaker back, taking me off Tron. I was able to Warping Wail a Crumble to Dust, which felt good. Definitely felt like I should have won that game.

0-1

Round 2 vs 5-color Tokens?
Game 1 my opponent led with Swamp into Inquisition of Kozilek, taking my Ancient Stirrings. Next turn he played Sylvan Caryatid. I assembled Tron on Turn 3 but my only threat was a World Breaker which I could't cast. My opponent had Lingering Souls and flashed it back before I drew a Grove of the Burnwillows and cast World Breaker. He recurred a Raven's Crime to keep making me discard. I discarded an Ancient Stirrings and Urza's Power Plant. He used Tectonic Edge on my Urza's Power Plant but I topdecked another one. Then my opponent played Siege Rhino and I was down to 3 with another World Breaker in my hand faced with 3 Lingering Souls tokens, 2 Sylvan Caryatid, and 1 Siege Rhino. I topdecked Wurmcoil Engine and played it. Next turn my opponent didn't attack and on my turn I played my second World Breaker and attacked with Wurmcoil Engine to go up to 9. On my next turn I attacked with Wurmcoil Engine again but it met a Path to Exile. I played Karn Liberated and after one more turn my opponent scooped. I thought he scooped a bit early because I didn't really have many threats on the board and he still had more life than me.
Game 2 I just sided in some Nature's Claim for Stony Silence, going down 2 Karn Liberated and 1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. my opponent mulliganed to 6 and kept what seemed to be a bad hand. He led with a tapped Creeping Tar Pit and passed. I played a Chromatic Sphere and next turn he played an Island and took my Ancient Stirrings. I still had an Expedition Map, though. On his next turn he played a tapped Godless Shrine and passed. On my turn I was able to assemble Tron. On my opponent's turn he didn't have anything and had to discard. On my turn I played World Breaker and he scooped.

1-1

Round 3 vs Affinity
Game 1 my opponent played Darksteel Citadel, Ornithopter, and Vault Skirge. Next turn he played another Vault Skirge, a Signal Pest, and Inkmoth Nexus and attacked for 1 with Vault Skirge. I had turn 3 Karn Liberated and exiled his Signal Pest. On my opponent's turn he animated Inkmoth Nexus and attacked Karn Liberated. On my turn I played Ugin, the Spirit Dragon and killed one of the Vault Skirges. My opponent played Cranial Plating, equipped it to a Vault Skirge and sent everything at Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. I killed another Vault Skirge with Ugin, the Spirit Dragon and played World Breaker exiling Cranial Plating. My opponent used Galvanic Blast on Ugin, the Spirit Dragon but wasn't able to kill it. Next turn I played Kozilek's Return and Karn Liberated and my opponent scooped.
Game 2 I brought in a few Warping Wail, Nature's Claim, and Vandalblast going down both Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, 1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, 1 Wurmcoil Engine, and 1 Oblivion Stone. My opponent mulliganed to six and had a slow start with two Ornithopter and a Blinkmoth Nexus. He played Signal Pest and Glimmervoid next turn. I took 6 damage before I drew a Kozilek's Return and a World Breaker the next turn to get the concession.

2-1

Round 4 vs Elves
My opponent hadn't seen my deck but I had seen his. Game 1 he got off to a fast start with turn 1 Elvish Mystic and Heritage Druid the next turn. I got turn 3 Karn Liberated and exiled his Heritage Druid but next turn he went off with Collected Company and got me down to 11 with Shaman of the Pack, playing all the cards in his hand. On my turn I played Oblivion Stone and cracked it. Next turn he played another Shaman of the Pack and I was at 10. I played another Oblivion Stone and cracked it when my opponent attacked. After I drew and played World Breaker my opponent scooped.
Game 2 I brought in 2 Warping Wail, going down 2 World Breaker. My hand was slow but I kept it since it had access to colored mana and Expedition Map. My opponent went down to 4 but had Elvish Mystic into Heritage Druid and I didn't draw any sweepers. On turn 3 after I played a Chromatic Star leaving up mana for activating Expedition Map, my opponent used Krosan Grip on it. I had two Tron pieces already so it felt pretty bad. However I had still had 3 Oblivion Stones in my hand. Next turn I played one after cracking my Chromatic Star to try to find a sweeper. At the end of my turn my opponent used Chord of Calling to get Phyrexian Revoker naming Oblivion Stone. My opponent attacked and put me down to 16. I drew a Chromatic Sphere and cracked it trying to find a sweeper but didn't so I just played another Oblivion Stone since I didn't have anything else to do. My opponent had Collected Company end of turn getting two Nettle Sentinel. On my opponent's turn he attacked and played Shaman of the Pack which put me at 6 but he was empty-handed. On my turn I drew a Kozilek's Return and played it. My opponent played an Elvish Mystic. At some point I put a fate counter on one of the Oblivion Stone and used one to kill the Elvish Mystic. With seven lands in play, I drew an Expedition Map and finally got the Urza's Mine I needed to play Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger and exile my opponent's two lands. He conceded after that.

Final record: 3-1

I think the colored mana requirement of World Breaker is definitely a drawback. There were a couple of times where I had turn 3 Tron but no Karn Liberated and no way of getting colored mana to play World Breaker. One game I didn't even see a single Chromatic Star or Chromatic Sphere. The single Wurmcoil Engine really made a difference in the second game. Maybe I should have sided in more against Grixis Control.

Interesting of note,

New emrakul can beat infinite life from a chord player if they have spellskite in the deck, if you catch them short with a chord in hand (or topdeck it in their stolen turn, or even have a skite in play already)

Just infinitely pay for something to be redirected to skite. Lol

Only works when they have even live though. You can't pay for the activation when he's at 1. Also Finks gains 2 so you need to ping him somehow

Quick comments:

* 2x Mana Cylix are replacements for the missing 2x Chromatic Star? If you can't get the Stars I think Prophetic Prism is a better replacement.
* Copperline Gorge enters tapped too often. Try to trade it for another Karplusan Forest or Stomping Ground.
* You may consider Scour from Existence instead of the Spine of Ish Sah as a "Pseudo T3 Karn" effect. Not sure if the instant speed is better than the recursion, but it's worth testing.
* Try to get a couple World Breakers and Sanctum of Ugins. Chaining threats with them is one of our best attack angles after the Eye ban.
* I suggest cutting at least one of the CMC10 Eldrazi for a smaller threats (like the World Breaker mentioned above). I think you shouldn't run more than 2-3 of them.

Quote from Phelpssan »

* You may consider Scour from Existence instead of the Spine of Ish Sah as a "Pseudo T3 Karn" effect. Not sure if the instant speed is better than the recursion, but it's worth testing.

Scour from Existence would be (and has been) my choice as a placeholder for more expensive cards since it is (i) instant speed, and (ii) exiles rather than destroys.

Quote from Emanuelbrad »

Question regarding World Breakers: do you feel they are worthy ? I mean, people run them (including Joe Losset) but I always thought they are overhyped, even in standard. I mean, they are basically a 7 mana acidic slime. What decks are they good against ? Is the interaction with Sanctum of Ugin so important that is worth playing them ?

I am pretty new to tron myself, and just got my world breakers a couple weeks ago. First impressions:
Pros:
Colorless and can be searched up with ancient stirrings/sanctum
They give you a 5/7 body to block with, and also have reach - huge against decks that employ flying finishers like affinity
They come back from the graveyard for 3
The exile effect is on cast (great against blue control) and always has at least 1 target (land). I played a lot last week against jund and grixis decks, and once you start attacking their mana base it is over for them.
They Trigger Sanctum of Ugin - World breaker into Ulamog is basically game over

Cons:
I really hate when it's the only threat I have and I dont have an egg to cast it on turn 3 after assembling tron

EDIT: my issue with Spine of Ish sah is that you have to find a way to get it back in your graveyard, which probably means maindeck nature's claim. Idk if that's where you want to be.

Quote from Emanuelbrad »

- No, I have all chromatic stars. I use 2 Mana cylix because becasue I run slightly more colored sources (bolts and pyroclasm MD). I often had situations where I had a hand filled with colored spells but no colored source. But maybe I should still run 4 stars...

You should definitely run all Chromatics if you have them. If you still need more sources you could run some other rocks, but I still recommend Prophetic Prism, the ability to quickly cycle throught the deck is important for us.

Quote from Emanuelbrad »

- I can get another Karplusan, but is it better ? Honestly I feel copperline is the best Grove replacement, since is painless. Enters untapped in the first 3 turns (the critical ones). Later enters tapped, but at that point I should already have Tron and life should be good

Karplusan is the best Grove replacement out there. Copperline may be situationally better, but we really need our lands coming into play untapped at all stages in the game.

Also, consider this: The optimal line for the deck is dropping only Urza lands on T1-T3, and in this setup Copperline will always comes into play tapped.

Quote from Emanuelbrad »

- Hmm, Scour being instant is good but the recursion of spine is so backbreaking that I don't know...

This is one I'm not sure about. I think it's worth considering.

Quote from Emanuelbrad »

Question regarding World Breakers: do you feel they are worthy ? I mean, people run them (including Joe Losset) but I always thought they are overhyped, even in standard. I mean, they are basically a 7 mana acidic slime. What decks are they good against ? Is the interaction with Sanctum of Ugin so important that is worth playing them ?

I highly recommend running him. You should think of World Breakers as smaller Ulamogs that can be dropped a turn or two earlier. It also works as additional triggers for Sanctum (searching another World Breaker or Ulamog), and he can be recurred from the graveyard late-game if you run out of threats.

Chaining Wurmcoil/Karn -> World Breaker -> Ulamog is insanely backbreaking, and can be easily be done with a couple Sanctums and land search spells.

Quote from dc4582 »

EDIT: my issue with Spine of Ish sah is that you have to find a way to get it back in your graveyard, which probably means maindeck nature's claim. Idk if that's where you want to be.

He's running Phyrexia's Core for that.

Quote from Phelpssan »

He's running Phyrexia's Core for that.

Ahhhhh - missed that. thnx!

not of this world can help against crumble.
If not running karn you can use colossus of akros,turn four it can swing as a 20/20 trampler.
kran-claw ironworks can help help a sac engine for for spine.