Maindeck lifelink is important because of all the burn, but Lightning Helix is very limited as removal because of all the 4+ toughness creatures. What about switching some of them out with Azorius charm? Removing a goyf etc. to the top is a one-for-one trade and the lifelink can often turn the tide against burn or another race.
Maindeck lifelink is important because of all the burn, but Lightning Helix is very limited as removal because of all the 4+ toughness creatures. What about switching some of them out with Azorius charm? Removing a goyfs etc. to the top is a one-for-one trade and the lifelink can often turn the tide against burn or another race.
I don't tend to worry that much about the big butt creatures to be honest. A bunch of remands, paths, and snap then path is plenty for me. I really like Helix. It's super important against Burn and Affinity which are popular decks, it's also fine against Twin and I don't mind it against Abzan. Kill Treetop, finish off Liliana, team up with a block to kill a 'goyf.
This is where I want to be right now. This list feels very good. Played it against all the match-ups you can think of this week and that lead to some refinements. As far as the manabase is concerned I removed a Colonade and added a second basic plains. Since the deck has gotten more threat dense the 4th manland becomes less important. The deck is also very light on blue so losing the blue source to gain another untapped basic seemed realistic. A lot of the thinking with this deck is fetching and playing your lands in a logical manner so as to be able to "be open" to drawing a diverse selection of cards. You don't want to draw your card and think "Crap, last tunr I should have fetched for Godless Shrine, what was I thinking??".
Dropped an electrolyze for the 4th Path to Exile, as someone else mentioned the cluttering of 3 CMC spells makes this card a little more expendable. and Path gives us more chance to play 2 spells per turn.
Moving over to the sideboard I removed the 2nd Stony Silence, it's just not so necessary in our deck. The Affinity match-up is already heavily in our favor, one stony is enough, fight Tron in others ways (if you even face it at all). I removed the second Wrath of God because we can usually play to the board as good as any creature deck and I felt the spot would be better suited fighting more unfair decks. Counterflux was added as a hard counter and just something to sideboard into when we want to be more reactive with the added bonus of hosing storm. Lastly a copy of Elspeth, Knight-Errant. Wanted one more card to bring in against Abzan/Jund, the card is awesome and I'm happy to have it back.
What meta should you play this build in?
Good Match-ups:
Burn G1 pretty even, after sideboard you should be well out in front.
Affinity We have too much strong interaction and a bunch of sideboard cards that wreck them pretty good; Wrath, Wear/Tear, Stony,etc.
U/R Delver This deck is actually still decent but our match-up is good.
Infect These type of decks tend to be favorable with us because they need to get damage through with one of a few creatures they will draw per game and we have a lot of interaction.
Fair match-ups:
Abzan This is fun and can go either way. You are not an underdog in this match-up. You can keep up with their lingering souls and have cards that are included to be good against them like Blade Splicer, Revelation, Remand, Tasigur, Souls, Hellkite and then good sideboard cards like planeswalkers and Clique.
Twin It's always been a fine match-up we both interact and the game usually comes down to who plays better. I like our position because we can put pressure on them to "go for it" at an inopportune time.
Less favorable:
Scapeshift Can be a lot better after sideboard with the Slaughter Games, Negates, Counterflux, Cliques, etc. I wouldn't be super worried but it can go bad.
Tron Not set-up that well to deal with the U version but both can be problematic. Have to try to sideboard in the hate against this deck.
Living End This one can be really challenging, for obvious reasons. They can just put a bunch of guys in the yard and then instant speed bring them all back. Thankfully I've only played one match in over a year against this deck. I'll be happy trying to dodge it in the pairings.
Zoo If they are on the play this match-up can be very tough. Some games have very little play to them.
Boggles I don't think this is a good match-up but others have told me they think it's ok. Personally I don't want to face it.
Faeries Again, not a popular choice but this deck is pretty solid against all the U/W/R variants.
That's all for now, I hope people can find the list useful. It's been a lot of work and I think it's pretty a pretty nice one to try at your next PPTQ or GP! Practice fetching in a smart way and you should be winning the battle!
[deck]
This is where I want to be right now. This list feels very good. Played it against all the match-ups you can think of this week and that lead to some refinements. As far as the manabase is concerned I removed a Colonade and added a second basic plains. Since the deck has gotten more threat dense the 4th manland becomes less important. The deck is also very light on blue so losing the blue source to gain another untapped basic seemed realistic. A lot of the thinking with this deck is fetching and playing your lands in a logical manner so as to be able to "be open" to drawing a diverse selection of cards. You don't want to draw your card and think "Crap, last tunr I should have fetched for Godless Shrine, what was I thinking??".
Actually you have 2UU there with Snapcaster + Remand (2RUU with Electrolyze and 2WUU for five mana Revelations)and Tasigurs ability, and you have 1UU and UUR with your sideboard cards Vendilion Clique and Counterflux. You don't have any double white in your mainboard, so two plains looks strange. In a four color deck you should probably switch it out with another fetchland (Scalding Tarn)to improve your mana consistency.
[deck]
This is where I want to be right now. This list feels very good. Played it against all the match-ups you can think of this week and that lead to some refinements. As far as the manabase is concerned I removed a Colonade and added a second basic plains. Since the deck has gotten more threat dense the 4th manland becomes less important. The deck is also very light on blue so losing the blue source to gain another untapped basic seemed realistic. A lot of the thinking with this deck is fetching and playing your lands in a logical manner so as to be able to "be open" to drawing a diverse selection of cards. You don't want to draw your card and think "Crap, last tunr I should have fetched for Godless Shrine, what was I thinking??".
Actually you have 2UU there with Snapcaster + Remand (2RUU with Electrolyze and 2WUU for five mana Revelations)and Tasigurs ability, and you have 1UU and UUR with your sideboard cards Vendilion Clique and Counterflux. You don't have any double white in your mainboard, so two plains looks strange. In a four color deck you should probably switch it out with another fetchland (Scalding Tarn)to improve your mana consistency.
I aggre. (No attacks nor criticisim Renowtac, counting Arid Mesa you only have 16 ways to get U in your manabase, and that is quite risky because needing 3 U on a single turn is quite common).
I don't think so, the deck is barely U and U still represents the most sources. We only have 15 white sources and the deck is mostly white. We only have 15 red and the deck is much likely to want double red (Bolt, Snap, Bolt) and (Thundrermaw) I'm not sure why it would be quite common to need 3 U in a single turn. I don't think that's happened since I started playing the deck. It would have to be something like Remand, Snap, Remand. Could happen, but not at all common. I don't want to add more fetches, if I added a blue source it would be to remove the second Plains, but the deck is very white source hungry. It's much more likely that I want to play Souls+Path or Splicer+Path. After sideboard, as was pointed out, I might find myself light on U, but to be honest that's a part of playing a deck like this. You are balancing between too much life-loss in the manabase and having the sources you want. I think this is fine. In our team's testing we found ourselves needing white much more than U, if we sideboard into the more controlling shell with a higher U count and less white we can fetch accordingly.
Again the people that are criticizing are doing so without really looking at the decklist. Please look at the whole deck and better yet play with the deck before suggesting manachanges. This list was come to after 4 good players spent two days testing it against a bunch of other decks. The same guy seems to be suggesting changes to everything I post and it's getting annoying. There are plenty of people posting lists saying things like "What do you guys thing should be changed in this list?".
I'm not doing that. I'm posting the deck as a final product. Changes to this would be based on meta-gaming.
I also want to thank those that have been supportive of the list. I think we have about 12 people playing just from MTGSalvation awareness. I'm working with 4 guys via PM, then several have mentioned in the comments they are trying it, plus my local team.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
Ajani Vengeant and Cryptic Command fill totally different roles. it seesm strange to suggest one to replace the other. Ajani is bad in a lot of match-ups, not really a consistent maindeck card.
Consider why you want to remove Cryptic and would Ajani solve that problem while still solving the problems that Cryptic could solve.
@Renowtac: what is wrong with you dude? Why do you take everything as an attack? I mean, this is the second time we say something about your manabase and you react like a little kid. I'm giving up on this topic.
If anyone else wants to talk about #teamgeist or similars I'm very intersted.
I don't take it as an attack. It's just annoying that you don't look or think before you post. Your comment make no logical sense and shows you have no understanding of the needs of this manabase. You got infracted in U/W Control thread for making similar flames on others decks. I'm not looking for your input on the manabase. If you're ever ready to act like a big boy you can come back and sit at the table with the rest of us.
I aggre. (No attacks nor criticisim Renowtac, counting Arid Mesa you only have 16 ways to get U in your manabase, and that is quite risky because needing 3 U on a single turn is quite common).
And another reason he should want more fetches in his list is Tasigur. Those fetches help bring him out early when needed.
Again the people that are criticizing are doing so without really looking at the decklist. Please look at the whole deck and better yet play with the deck before suggesting manachanges. This list was come to after 4 good players spent two days testing it against a bunch of other decks. The same guy seems to be suggesting changes to everything I post and it's getting annoying. There are plenty of people posting lists saying things like "What do you guys thing should be changed in this list?".
I'm not doing that. I'm posting the deck as a final product.
Everyone posting here will have to deal with their posts and decklists being critisized, or they shouldn't be posting here. It's as simple as that.
According to this article (i always check on this when creating my mana base), to consistently cast (above 90% of the time) snap+remand on turn 4 you need 18 blue mana sources. If you want remand, snap+remand on turn 6 you need like 20 blue mana sources.
According to this article (i always check on this when creating my mana base), to consistently cast (above 90% of the time) snap+remand on turn 4 you need 18 blue mana sources. If you want remand, snap+remand on turn 6 you need like 20 blue mana sources.
That's a good source. You also have to consider many other factors though. How many colors am I running? How many red sources would I need to reliably cast Lightning Blot plus Helix? You can't only look at the parts you want to highlight. How important is T4 Snap, Remand to my deck? (not important in my build). I'm more looking for Snap, Path and Snap Bolt.
Again the people that are criticizing are doing so without really looking at the decklist. Please look at the whole deck and better yet play with the deck before suggesting manachanges. This list was come to after 4 good players spent two days testing it against a bunch of other decks. The same guy seems to be suggesting changes to everything I post and it's getting annoying. There are plenty of people posting lists saying things like "What do you guys thing should be changed in this list?".
I'm not doing that. I'm posting the deck as a final product.
Everyone posting here will have to deal with their posts and decklists being critisized, or they shouldn't be posting here. It's as simple as that.
Actually no, no we don't. If people give illogical criticisms like the two I've gotten, we don't have to deal with it. We can simply call them out on their nonsense. Similar to when Vondrack was saying that empirical data isn't a good argument and several people put him back into his place. Or when Geist boy says that my deck "commonly needs UUU". Or trying to point out that I should have 20 U sources to reliably cast Snap remand, not a single list posted has 20 U sources...nor any U/W/R deck.
Anyway I'm very close to blocking two of them so this conversation can get back on track.
Anyways these guys love to detract from the actual deckbuilding conversation to tell you why they would change something in your deck.
Helix is also just a burn spell that goes to the face. The more burn you have, the more 'aggro' you are. Burning out decks is one of our plans
Yes, some burn spells in addition to the 4 bolts are nice is some matchups for the extra reach, but if we look at the largescale meta now (like on the decks that dominated the pro tour), I think the "remove creatures"-plan is more often relevant now than the "burn to the face"-plan. After all, BGx decks build up their creature-base to "pass the bolt-test", so they can discard away your threatening cards and leave you with some useless bolts and helixes in hand. Burn is a problem, but Azorius charm does a good job there too.
Vondrack, thanks for the cfb article. I have always tried to incorporate actual math into deckbuilding, and it's good to see others are on the same page. Right now, I have a very crude Excel spreadsheet that I use to make manabases, where I can adjust the numbers of each land in my mana base. I have generally only done expected value calculations there, meaning that the sheet can show how many sources of a given color you can expect to have (on average) by turn x. It further subduvides the sources by the amount of damage that would be taken from them. I'll see if I can work one out for varying probability levels (70%, 90%). If there is actual interest, I could share it at some point when it is done.
Of course, there is some give and take here. What I considered my roughly optimized manabase is off from the teamgeist version by 1 land--they use 1 sulfur falls in place of 1 scalding tarn. Mana is close enough to optimal that it almost doesn't ever matter, but the damage is always something to consider based on your meta. In a world where no points of damage mattered, there would be no basics, but running fewer than 4 seems suicidal against blood moon and burn.
Regarding the team geist list, I believe guyterto was interested--how has valorous stance been working out? I currently run one main, and it has been ok. Since it partly fills the role of Resto (save Geist), I went down to 2 Restos to avoid clunkier draws. Those testing the teamgeist version, what have your experiences been?
Renwotac's list also doesn't require UU until late, and there aren't any cryptic commands. No Geists, either, so he's never tapping down a U source on his turn. These differences do make his list different from previous ones that needed the 20 U sources. With 16 U sources, he is expected to hit both U by his first draw step, anyway (>50%).
As he said, his list doesn't rely on U as much as W. (lingering souls) he also has to hit RR for thundermaw. The requirements strain the mans a bit, but it seems fine without Geist and cryptic command
A note here--both of the lists were running 3x Cryptic Commands, which makes these lists much heavier blue than renwotac's. They need 20 sources of U, but I don't think renwotac does. If you're running the teamgeist version, then you probably need closer to 20 U than 16 U, even though they go Cryptic Command-free. Our lists want to make sure we hit turn 3 Geist, and also turn 5 Geist + Remand backup if necessary. I'm running 19 U sources since I don't have any Cryptics--same as teamgeist.
If people give illogical criticisms like the two I've gotten, we don't have to deal with it.
Illogical criticisms? So warning that your list doesn't have many options to deal with Splinter Twin and to be careful with your mana base against, for instance, blood moon, are illogical criticisms? Do you even understand what you are talking about? Do you see how ridiculous are your accusations? You attack the others but then ended up accepting what has been told to you, but of course you'ld never admit that (the extra plains and the extra path). This is a forum, if you don't want to hear other people's opinions, just create a blog.
Similar to when Vondrack was saying that empirical data isn't a good argument and several people put him back into his place.
Don't put words in my mouth, no one said empirical data isn't a good argument, what is not a good argument is testing once ("ohh i used snap+bolt so i won anyway") and now claim you've never lost. While it may be true, it doesn't provide enough data to make that claim. Also, before you collect that sort of data you should test in theory. You can create a deck with 1 emrakul and 59 mountains and win a match. Does it make a good deck? No! But if you won the match, would you start claiming that you've never lost a match with that deck and due to that it is a good deck? What i showed you, in a long post, was that your list could have problems with Blood Moon. Mainboard you had like 30% of getting around a resolved blood moon (it doesn't mean you would win) and after sideboard you had 40% more or less. That previous post was to explain why your manabase was vulnerable. Now you can accept those statistics (it's natural to have some cards that wreck our decks) and that would be reason enough to not change it. It's a very diverse meta, so we can't be prepared for everything. Now, start claiming that is not an issue because you had luck and won a match, is not enough to be considered a vast empirical data. If you're going to every match focus only on having luck, well then, good luck!
Anyway I'm very close to blocking two of them so this conversation can get back on track.
Please do this, i'm tired of your lack of arguments and constant attacks.
Vondrack, I would be very pleased to see your list since it looks we are taking similar paths.
Weird choices may be Stormbreath Dragon instead of Thundermaw Hellkite and the 3 snares. As a 1-of, i was pretty upset that, when i did find and play thundermaw, he ended up eating a path. Altough the lingering souls are a real threat and thundermaw would be better against that, the problem is that, decks that use lingering souls tend to use path to exile as well. The snares i tried to reduce to 2 first, then to remove them completely from the deck, but everytime i play i was always thinking "damn, i could have countered that if I had snares". So decided to put them back. They are good against almost every T1 and T1,5 deck (or at least not completely dead). I'm still a bit divided in eiganjo castle. Sometimes is really good (save geist/clique from a pyroclasm), others is just a stupid plains (or a stupid mountain if blood moon is on the field). I'm expecting Clique to become better now, with 2 combo decks in the pro tour finals. I was about to drop them in ktk meta, but in this meta i'm still waiting to see an increase of popularity in combo decks. If so, i may even consider to bring another Clique.
Regarding sideboard, i've some doubts in the relic and valorous stance. I'm thinking maybe 1 wrath instead of valorous. still unsure. those 2 flex spots are still being tested. I used to like the relic a lot, but right now hasn't been good enough. I have 1 in sideboard to play online (sometimes it happens to play against a graveyard strategy deck) but if i would go to a GP, would be the 1st card in the sideboard to be dropped.
Also, unlike other members of this forum, i'm willing to hear everyone's opinions about the deck and how it can be improved.
Vondrack, thanks for the cfb article. I have always tried to incorporate actual math into deckbuilding, and it's good to see others are on the same page. Right now, I have a very crude Excel spreadsheet that I use to make manabases, where I can adjust the numbers of each land in my mana base. I have generally only done expected value calculations there, meaning that the sheet can show how many sources of a given color you can expect to have (on average) by turn x. It further subduvides the sources by the amount of damage that would be taken from them. I'll see if I can work one out for varying probability levels (70%, 90%). If there is actual interest, I could share it at some point when it is done.
Of course, there is some give and take here. What I considered my roughly optimized manabase is off from the teamgeist version by 1 land--they use 1 sulfur falls in place of 1 scalding tarn. Mana is close enough to optimal that it almost doesn't ever matter, but the damage is always something to consider based on your meta. In a world where no points of damage mattered, there would be no basics, but running fewer than 4 seems suicidal against blood moon and burn.
Regarding the team geist list, I believe guyterto was interested--how has valorous stance been working out? I currently run one main, and it has been ok. Since it partly fills the role of Resto (save Geist), I went down to 2 Restos to avoid clunkier draws. Those testing the teamgeist version, what have your experiences been?
You're welcome that article is really good and it helps a lot. When building a deck, i use to check those tables to see if everything fits. At the moment, unfortunately, in my list Cryptic is not consistently cast on turn 4, but it's something i've accepted (that's why i just run 1). I have the equivalent of 20,5 blue sources, and for cryptic is necessary 22 blue sources. What i mean is, those tables can be used to help us when building our mana base, but sometimes, in order to play some cards, we have to accept that the 90% he talks will not be achieved.
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Modern UR Twin
Legacy UWR Miracles
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UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
I don't tend to worry that much about the big butt creatures to be honest. A bunch of remands, paths, and snap then path is plenty for me. I really like Helix. It's super important against Burn and Affinity which are popular decks, it's also fine against Twin and I don't mind it against Abzan. Kill Treetop, finish off Liliana, team up with a block to kill a 'goyf.
3 Arid Mesa
3 Celestial Colonade
2 Steam Vents
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Blood Crypt
1 Godless Shrine
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Tectonic Edge
2 Plains
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Restoration Angel
3 Blade Splicer
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Lingering Souls
2 Electrolyze
1 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Negate
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Wear / Tear
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Stony Silence
1 Counterflux
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Wrath of God
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
This is where I want to be right now. This list feels very good. Played it against all the match-ups you can think of this week and that lead to some refinements. As far as the manabase is concerned I removed a Colonade and added a second basic plains. Since the deck has gotten more threat dense the 4th manland becomes less important. The deck is also very light on blue so losing the blue source to gain another untapped basic seemed realistic. A lot of the thinking with this deck is fetching and playing your lands in a logical manner so as to be able to "be open" to drawing a diverse selection of cards. You don't want to draw your card and think "Crap, last tunr I should have fetched for Godless Shrine, what was I thinking??".
Dropped an electrolyze for the 4th Path to Exile, as someone else mentioned the cluttering of 3 CMC spells makes this card a little more expendable. and Path gives us more chance to play 2 spells per turn.
Moving over to the sideboard I removed the 2nd Stony Silence, it's just not so necessary in our deck. The Affinity match-up is already heavily in our favor, one stony is enough, fight Tron in others ways (if you even face it at all). I removed the second Wrath of God because we can usually play to the board as good as any creature deck and I felt the spot would be better suited fighting more unfair decks. Counterflux was added as a hard counter and just something to sideboard into when we want to be more reactive with the added bonus of hosing storm. Lastly a copy of Elspeth, Knight-Errant. Wanted one more card to bring in against Abzan/Jund, the card is awesome and I'm happy to have it back.
What meta should you play this build in?
Good Match-ups:
Burn G1 pretty even, after sideboard you should be well out in front.
Affinity We have too much strong interaction and a bunch of sideboard cards that wreck them pretty good; Wrath, Wear/Tear, Stony,etc.
U/R Delver This deck is actually still decent but our match-up is good.
Infect These type of decks tend to be favorable with us because they need to get damage through with one of a few creatures they will draw per game and we have a lot of interaction.
Fair match-ups:
Abzan This is fun and can go either way. You are not an underdog in this match-up. You can keep up with their lingering souls and have cards that are included to be good against them like Blade Splicer, Revelation, Remand, Tasigur, Souls, Hellkite and then good sideboard cards like planeswalkers and Clique.
Twin It's always been a fine match-up we both interact and the game usually comes down to who plays better. I like our position because we can put pressure on them to "go for it" at an inopportune time.
Less favorable:
Scapeshift Can be a lot better after sideboard with the Slaughter Games, Negates, Counterflux, Cliques, etc. I wouldn't be super worried but it can go bad.
Tron Not set-up that well to deal with the U version but both can be problematic. Have to try to sideboard in the hate against this deck.
Living End This one can be really challenging, for obvious reasons. They can just put a bunch of guys in the yard and then instant speed bring them all back. Thankfully I've only played one match in over a year against this deck. I'll be happy trying to dodge it in the pairings.
Zoo If they are on the play this match-up can be very tough. Some games have very little play to them.
Boggles I don't think this is a good match-up but others have told me they think it's ok. Personally I don't want to face it.
Faeries Again, not a popular choice but this deck is pretty solid against all the U/W/R variants.
That's all for now, I hope people can find the list useful. It's been a lot of work and I think it's pretty a pretty nice one to try at your next PPTQ or GP! Practice fetching in a smart way and you should be winning the battle!
Good Luck!
Actually you have 2UU there with Snapcaster + Remand (2RUU with Electrolyze and 2WUU for five mana Revelations)and Tasigurs ability, and you have 1UU and UUR with your sideboard cards Vendilion Clique and Counterflux. You don't have any double white in your mainboard, so two plains looks strange. In a four color deck you should probably switch it out with another fetchland (Scalding Tarn)to improve your mana consistency.
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
I don't think so, the deck is barely U and U still represents the most sources. We only have 15 white sources and the deck is mostly white. We only have 15 red and the deck is much likely to want double red (Bolt, Snap, Bolt) and (Thundrermaw) I'm not sure why it would be quite common to need 3 U in a single turn. I don't think that's happened since I started playing the deck. It would have to be something like Remand, Snap, Remand. Could happen, but not at all common. I don't want to add more fetches, if I added a blue source it would be to remove the second Plains, but the deck is very white source hungry. It's much more likely that I want to play Souls+Path or Splicer+Path. After sideboard, as was pointed out, I might find myself light on U, but to be honest that's a part of playing a deck like this. You are balancing between too much life-loss in the manabase and having the sources you want. I think this is fine. In our team's testing we found ourselves needing white much more than U, if we sideboard into the more controlling shell with a higher U count and less white we can fetch accordingly.
Again the people that are criticizing are doing so without really looking at the decklist. Please look at the whole deck and better yet play with the deck before suggesting manachanges. This list was come to after 4 good players spent two days testing it against a bunch of other decks. The same guy seems to be suggesting changes to everything I post and it's getting annoying. There are plenty of people posting lists saying things like "What do you guys thing should be changed in this list?".
I'm not doing that. I'm posting the deck as a final product. Changes to this would be based on meta-gaming.
I also want to thank those that have been supportive of the list. I think we have about 12 people playing just from MTGSalvation awareness. I'm working with 4 guys via PM, then several have mentioned in the comments they are trying it, plus my local team.
Good luck to all!
I wasn't a big fan of him nor Elspeth when I tried them in my deck. Of course, this was in Treasure Cruise meta, so things were different back then.
Ajani Vengeant and Cryptic Command fill totally different roles. it seesm strange to suggest one to replace the other. Ajani is bad in a lot of match-ups, not really a consistent maindeck card.
Consider why you want to remove Cryptic and would Ajani solve that problem while still solving the problems that Cryptic could solve.
I don't take it as an attack. It's just annoying that you don't look or think before you post. Your comment make no logical sense and shows you have no understanding of the needs of this manabase. You got infracted in U/W Control thread for making similar flames on others decks. I'm not looking for your input on the manabase. If you're ever ready to act like a big boy you can come back and sit at the table with the rest of us.
And another reason he should want more fetches in his list is Tasigur. Those fetches help bring him out early when needed.
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
Everyone posting here will have to deal with their posts and decklists being critisized, or they shouldn't be posting here. It's as simple as that.
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
According to this article (i always check on this when creating my mana base), to consistently cast (above 90% of the time) snap+remand on turn 4 you need 18 blue mana sources. If you want remand, snap+remand on turn 6 you need like 20 blue mana sources.
UR TwinLegacy
UWR MiraclesThat's a good source. You also have to consider many other factors though. How many colors am I running? How many red sources would I need to reliably cast Lightning Blot plus Helix? You can't only look at the parts you want to highlight. How important is T4 Snap, Remand to my deck? (not important in my build). I'm more looking for Snap, Path and Snap Bolt.
Actually no, no we don't. If people give illogical criticisms like the two I've gotten, we don't have to deal with it. We can simply call them out on their nonsense. Similar to when Vondrack was saying that empirical data isn't a good argument and several people put him back into his place. Or when Geist boy says that my deck "commonly needs UUU". Or trying to point out that I should have 20 U sources to reliably cast Snap remand, not a single list posted has 20 U sources...nor any U/W/R deck.
Anyway I'm very close to blocking two of them so this conversation can get back on track.
Anyways these guys love to detract from the actual deckbuilding conversation to tell you why they would change something in your deck.
Yes, some burn spells in addition to the 4 bolts are nice is some matchups for the extra reach, but if we look at the largescale meta now (like on the decks that dominated the pro tour), I think the "remove creatures"-plan is more often relevant now than the "burn to the face"-plan. After all, BGx decks build up their creature-base to "pass the bolt-test", so they can discard away your threatening cards and leave you with some useless bolts and helixes in hand. Burn is a problem, but Azorius charm does a good job there too.
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
Of course, there is some give and take here. What I considered my roughly optimized manabase is off from the teamgeist version by 1 land--they use 1 sulfur falls in place of 1 scalding tarn. Mana is close enough to optimal that it almost doesn't ever matter, but the damage is always something to consider based on your meta. In a world where no points of damage mattered, there would be no basics, but running fewer than 4 seems suicidal against blood moon and burn.
Regarding the team geist list, I believe guyterto was interested--how has valorous stance been working out? I currently run one main, and it has been ok. Since it partly fills the role of Resto (save Geist), I went down to 2 Restos to avoid clunkier draws. Those testing the teamgeist version, what have your experiences been?
As he said, his list doesn't rely on U as much as W. (lingering souls) he also has to hit RR for thundermaw. The requirements strain the mans a bit, but it seems fine without Geist and cryptic command
Illogical criticisms? So warning that your list doesn't have many options to deal with Splinter Twin and to be careful with your mana base against, for instance, blood moon, are illogical criticisms? Do you even understand what you are talking about? Do you see how ridiculous are your accusations? You attack the others but then ended up accepting what has been told to you, but of course you'ld never admit that (the extra plains and the extra path). This is a forum, if you don't want to hear other people's opinions, just create a blog.
Don't put words in my mouth, no one said empirical data isn't a good argument, what is not a good argument is testing once ("ohh i used snap+bolt so i won anyway") and now claim you've never lost. While it may be true, it doesn't provide enough data to make that claim. Also, before you collect that sort of data you should test in theory. You can create a deck with 1 emrakul and 59 mountains and win a match. Does it make a good deck? No! But if you won the match, would you start claiming that you've never lost a match with that deck and due to that it is a good deck? What i showed you, in a long post, was that your list could have problems with Blood Moon. Mainboard you had like 30% of getting around a resolved blood moon (it doesn't mean you would win) and after sideboard you had 40% more or less. That previous post was to explain why your manabase was vulnerable. Now you can accept those statistics (it's natural to have some cards that wreck our decks) and that would be reason enough to not change it. It's a very diverse meta, so we can't be prepared for everything. Now, start claiming that is not an issue because you had luck and won a match, is not enough to be considered a vast empirical data. If you're going to every match focus only on having luck, well then, good luck!
Please do this, i'm tired of your lack of arguments and constant attacks.
@guyterto, my current deck list:
4x Geist of Saint Traft
3x Restoration Angel
4x Snapcaster Mage
1x Stormbreath Dragon
2x Vendilion Clique
spells
1x Cryptic Command
2x Electrolyze
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Lightning Helix
4x Path to Exile
4x Remand
3x Spell Snare
4x Celestial Colonnade
1x Eiganjo Castle
4x Flooded Strand
1x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
2x Sulfur Falls
2x Tectonic Edge
1x Ajani Vengeant
1x Batterskull
2x Celestial Purge
1x Counterflux
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Negate
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Stony Silence
1x Valorous Stance
2x Wear // Tear
Weird choices may be Stormbreath Dragon instead of Thundermaw Hellkite and the 3 snares. As a 1-of, i was pretty upset that, when i did find and play thundermaw, he ended up eating a path. Altough the lingering souls are a real threat and thundermaw would be better against that, the problem is that, decks that use lingering souls tend to use path to exile as well. The snares i tried to reduce to 2 first, then to remove them completely from the deck, but everytime i play i was always thinking "damn, i could have countered that if I had snares". So decided to put them back. They are good against almost every T1 and T1,5 deck (or at least not completely dead). I'm still a bit divided in eiganjo castle. Sometimes is really good (save geist/clique from a pyroclasm), others is just a stupid plains (or a stupid mountain if blood moon is on the field). I'm expecting Clique to become better now, with 2 combo decks in the pro tour finals. I was about to drop them in ktk meta, but in this meta i'm still waiting to see an increase of popularity in combo decks. If so, i may even consider to bring another Clique.
Regarding sideboard, i've some doubts in the relic and valorous stance. I'm thinking maybe 1 wrath instead of valorous. still unsure. those 2 flex spots are still being tested. I used to like the relic a lot, but right now hasn't been good enough. I have 1 in sideboard to play online (sometimes it happens to play against a graveyard strategy deck) but if i would go to a GP, would be the 1st card in the sideboard to be dropped.
Also, unlike other members of this forum, i'm willing to hear everyone's opinions about the deck and how it can be improved.
Best regards
UR TwinLegacy
UWR MiraclesYou're welcome
UR TwinLegacy
UWR Miracles