Well those plays with rewind always seem awesome but the problem is its a blank till turn 4. The first three turns are so incredibly important you can't afford to have random value plays clog up your curve.
The utility of cryptic is just much higher and it's bounce mode can give u the same tempo buy.
I have been thinking about Peer through depths for this deck a nice impulse, but it probably isnt needed and I wouldn't know what to cut.
So are half of the other cards in the deck, so that shouldn't stop you.
I already admitted that Cryptic had more utility - that's obvious. What isn't obvious is whether the mana / time advantage that Rewind offers is worth having it over the fourth Cryptic Command.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
Quite a few Teachings lists, with both Costa and Wafo-Tapa's lists making it here. Not sure how I feel about cutting the Snapcaster Mages, but I'll test it and see how it goes.
Compared to Wafo's first list, Costa has path over terminate, tribute to hunger over the 4th electrolyze, and IoK over dismember. He's also playing 3 basics, 2 islands, 1 mountain, which brings him to 13 red sources instead of 12. He cut the tec edge though. The side board has tempest of light for bogle, and sowing salt vs tron. The main deck changes look reasonable.
He also decided the tec edge was greedy, and has 2 sulfur falls over a steam vents and tec edge. He has leaks over remands and walls over snapcasters. I guess wall and snapcaster do close to the same thing. I think i'll test Wafo's latest list out since Costa's list doesn't have any major changes.
Not sure how I feel about cutting the Snapcaster Mages, but I'll test it and see how it goes.
I played about 5 matches with it.
I don't really like cutting down to 1 snapcaster. Tiago gives you the ability to close out games and top decking him is a much better feeling that top decking a wall or izzet staticaster. With snapcaster you're less reliant on WSZ or you don't need to tap all your mana for the tokens since snapcaster chipped away at their life total. There are a lot of times with flashing back electrolyze where you kill a 1 toughness creature and do 1 to the face and snapcaster attacks for 2. That damage slowly adds up.
And I don't like the mana leaks in this version either. Since you're only playing 1 snapcaster the games go super long, where mana leak is horrid. At least remand cycles, or you can remand one of your own spells in a counter war. I guess mana leak is to stop a birthing pod from being resolved, which this deck has a very hard time dealing with.
I don't know if I like the staticaster or 3rd teachings. I'll need to play more games to get a stronger feeling.
I also feel like there should be 1 cheap life gain spell in the deck that you can tutor for, either lightning helix or tribute to hunger. I believe helix is the card I tutor for the most with teachings, with snapcaster a close 2nd and cryptic a close 3rd. This deck just kills all the creatures, so consume the meek isn't needed as often.
Yeah, the walls are likely better against decks where WSZ is all you need to win, e.g. Jund, perhaps Melira Pod and Splinter Twin - decks that don't have large amounts of inevitability.
On the other hand, decks like Scapeshift or Tron will more easily punish you if you have no Snapcasters or Cliques. You need to bring the pain to beat them, unless you have a SB plan that completely destroys the inevitability aspect, e.g. Land Death + Extractions, etc...
I think I'll likely stay at 3 Snapcasters, though I really do like a few Walls as well.
Yeah, the walls are likely better against decks where WSZ is all you need to win, e.g. Jund, perhaps Melira Pod and Splinter Twin - decks that don't have large amounts of inevitability.
On the other hand, decks like Scapeshift or Tron will more easily punish you if you have no Snapcasters or Cliques. You need to bring the pain to beat them, unless you have a SB plan that completely destroys the inevitability aspect, e.g. Land Death + Extractions, etc...
I think I'll likely stay at 3 Snapcasters, though I really do like a few Walls as well.
Um...I'd say Twin and Pod definitely have inevitability if you aren't pressuring them. I played a set of games against Asimov with his version of Wafo-teachings and me piloting twin and if he didn't have snapcasters to recycle aggressive esper charms(mind rots) and to deal damage, the matchup would have been very easy I'd imagine. As it was, I had to draw well in the games I won as he was able to empty my hand with charm and apply the beats with snapcasters making my margin of victory extremely narrow.
So in short, I don't like walls since twin is one of the top decks this PTQ season and you really want snappys against twin. For a PTQ at least, I want the card with the most play to it and a wall of omens allows for zero play in this type of deck. I also feel like the deck should play basics so it can at least esper charm post blood moon instead of just scooping on the spot.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
I only meant inevitability in the sense that Tron and Scapeshift play on an axis that we don't interact particularly well on. Scapeshift can kill you even without Scapeshift or Primeval Titan - slowly but surely with Mountains, or Prismatic Omen, etc...
Tron is the same way. If you don't put a clock on them, they will kill you for sure.
At least with Pod and Tron, we can interact, and when we reduce them to zero cards, it's nigh impossible for them to beat you. Tron and Scapeshift can kill you without cards, whether it just be finding mountains or topdecking a bomb, or even finding threats with Eye of Ugin. You have to put a clock on those decks, while against Pod and Twin, if you grind them out, it's much harder for them to bounce back because they need to put more pieces together.
We go bigger than Pod and Twin - but I don't think we go bigger than Tron or Scapeshift, though both of those decks are waning in popularity compared to the former.
On the other hand, I stuck one in my sideboard anyway because Scapeshift is pretty bad pre-board (they only combo off when they have loads of mana, and they probably have at least one counterspell in hand). Now, they need the removal to deal with it pre-combo.
When I played mindcensor in my bw tokens and soul sisters decks, it never really did anything or it died. However now when I play gifts and pod, people always blow me out with it.
It seems like a high variance card. And 3 mana is iffy against tron anyways since they can still search for tron pieces before mind censor comes into play.
I don't really like the card, but other people might have better luck with it.
Just started testing this but haven't had a chance to try it vs. tron really (waiting for my friend to become available :/)
What do you guys think of Slaughter Games over Sowing Salt in the SB against it? It can't be countered but unless you can reliably prevent them from getting tron set up before turn 4 it's not as good. I guess you can get rid of eye or a potential fatty but that seems kinda weaksauce.
Also, how long have you guys been able to stall with this thing? I've only played ~7 games with it but i feel like i can consistently get to ~8 mana with lands. Trying Bogardan Hellkite as a singleton for fun (if only he cost 7...). Not expecting much from him but it would be hella badass if he saw play in a format without Rite of Flame.
Not liking consume the meek either. Also trying 2x rewind so i'm pumping teachings up to 3 and seeing how it works alongside hellkite. Dropping snap to 2.
The utility of cryptic is just much higher and it's bounce mode can give u the same tempo buy.
I have been thinking about Peer through depths for this deck a nice impulse, but it probably isnt needed and I wouldn't know what to cut.
I already admitted that Cryptic had more utility - that's obvious. What isn't obvious is whether the mana / time advantage that Rewind offers is worth having it over the fourth Cryptic Command.
Sig by DNC/HotP Studios
This. You need to have enough things to do with that untapped mana in order for it to actually be worth the slot.
UWBG Gifts in Modern
UWBG Control in Standard
UBG Control in Legacy
Quite a few Teachings lists, with both Costa and Wafo-Tapa's lists making it here. Not sure how I feel about cutting the Snapcaster Mages, but I'll test it and see how it goes.
Sig by DNC/HotP Studios
4 Arid Mesa
1 Blood Crypt
2 Celestial Colonnade
4 Darkslick Shores
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Mystic Gate
2 Reflecting Pool
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
4 Snapcaster Mage
Spells 30
1 Consume the Meek
4 Cryptic Command
3 Electrolyze
4 Esper Charm
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Izzet Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Mystical Teachings
1 Path to Exile
4 Remand
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Tribute to Hunger
1 White Sun's Zenith
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Celestial Purge
1 Counterflux
1 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Rest for the Weary
1 Smelt
2 Sowing Salt
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Tempest of Light
1 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
Compared to Wafo's first list, Costa has path over terminate, tribute to hunger over the 4th electrolyze, and IoK over dismember. He's also playing 3 basics, 2 islands, 1 mountain, which brings him to 13 red sources instead of 12. He cut the tec edge though. The side board has tempest of light for bogle, and sowing salt vs tron. The main deck changes look reasonable.
Here's Wafo's latest list
1 Blood Crypt
2 Celestial Colonnade
4 Darkslick Shores
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
4 Marsh Flats
1 Mystic Gate
1 Plains
2 Reflecting Pool
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Watery Grave
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Snapcaster Mage
3 Wall of Omens
Spells 29
1 Consume the Meek
4 Cryptic Command
2 Dismember
3 Electrolyze
4 Esper Charm
3 Izzet Charm
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Mana Leak
3 Mystical Teachings
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Terminate
1 White Sun's Zenith
1 Baneslayer Angel
2 Celestial Purge
2 Counterflux
1 Disenchant
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Smelt
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Spellskite
3 Thoughtseize
1 Tribute to Hunger
He also decided the tec edge was greedy, and has 2 sulfur falls over a steam vents and tec edge. He has leaks over remands and walls over snapcasters. I guess wall and snapcaster do close to the same thing. I think i'll test Wafo's latest list out since Costa's list doesn't have any major changes.
Edit: nevermind- I thought Paraselene was an instant. Carry on!
UWBG Gifts in Modern
UWBG Control in Standard
UBG Control in Legacy
I played about 5 matches with it.
I don't really like cutting down to 1 snapcaster. Tiago gives you the ability to close out games and top decking him is a much better feeling that top decking a wall or izzet staticaster. With snapcaster you're less reliant on WSZ or you don't need to tap all your mana for the tokens since snapcaster chipped away at their life total. There are a lot of times with flashing back electrolyze where you kill a 1 toughness creature and do 1 to the face and snapcaster attacks for 2. That damage slowly adds up.
And I don't like the mana leaks in this version either. Since you're only playing 1 snapcaster the games go super long, where mana leak is horrid. At least remand cycles, or you can remand one of your own spells in a counter war. I guess mana leak is to stop a birthing pod from being resolved, which this deck has a very hard time dealing with.
I don't know if I like the staticaster or 3rd teachings. I'll need to play more games to get a stronger feeling.
I also feel like there should be 1 cheap life gain spell in the deck that you can tutor for, either lightning helix or tribute to hunger. I believe helix is the card I tutor for the most with teachings, with snapcaster a close 2nd and cryptic a close 3rd. This deck just kills all the creatures, so consume the meek isn't needed as often.
EDIT
Hey someone top 8'd a PTQ with this deck. You don't need to be Wafo Tapa to do well with it
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9556223&postcount=135
On the other hand, decks like Scapeshift or Tron will more easily punish you if you have no Snapcasters or Cliques. You need to bring the pain to beat them, unless you have a SB plan that completely destroys the inevitability aspect, e.g. Land Death + Extractions, etc...
I think I'll likely stay at 3 Snapcasters, though I really do like a few Walls as well.
Sig by DNC/HotP Studios
Um...I'd say Twin and Pod definitely have inevitability if you aren't pressuring them. I played a set of games against Asimov with his version of Wafo-teachings and me piloting twin and if he didn't have snapcasters to recycle aggressive esper charms(mind rots) and to deal damage, the matchup would have been very easy I'd imagine. As it was, I had to draw well in the games I won as he was able to empty my hand with charm and apply the beats with snapcasters making my margin of victory extremely narrow.
So in short, I don't like walls since twin is one of the top decks this PTQ season and you really want snappys against twin. For a PTQ at least, I want the card with the most play to it and a wall of omens allows for zero play in this type of deck. I also feel like the deck should play basics so it can at least esper charm post blood moon instead of just scooping on the spot.
Tron is the same way. If you don't put a clock on them, they will kill you for sure.
At least with Pod and Tron, we can interact, and when we reduce them to zero cards, it's nigh impossible for them to beat you. Tron and Scapeshift can kill you without cards, whether it just be finding mountains or topdecking a bomb, or even finding threats with Eye of Ugin. You have to put a clock on those decks, while against Pod and Twin, if you grind them out, it's much harder for them to bounce back because they need to put more pieces together.
We go bigger than Pod and Twin - but I don't think we go bigger than Tron or Scapeshift, though both of those decks are waning in popularity compared to the former.
Sig by DNC/HotP Studios
In general flash, helping clock, makes your path to exiles better.
Vs tron total shut down and prevents the tutor emerakul strategy.
Vs Scapeshift auto win if they can't bolt it.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
This actually seems quite sweet.
On the other hand, I stuck one in my sideboard anyway because Scapeshift is pretty bad pre-board (they only combo off when they have loads of mana, and they probably have at least one counterspell in hand). Now, they need the removal to deal with it pre-combo.
When I played mindcensor in my bw tokens and soul sisters decks, it never really did anything or it died. However now when I play gifts and pod, people always blow me out with it.
It seems like a high variance card. And 3 mana is iffy against tron anyways since they can still search for tron pieces before mind censor comes into play.
I don't really like the card, but other people might have better luck with it.
What do you guys think of Slaughter Games over Sowing Salt in the SB against it? It can't be countered but unless you can reliably prevent them from getting tron set up before turn 4 it's not as good. I guess you can get rid of eye or a potential fatty but that seems kinda weaksauce.
Also, how long have you guys been able to stall with this thing? I've only played ~7 games with it but i feel like i can consistently get to ~8 mana with lands. Trying Bogardan Hellkite as a singleton for fun (if only he cost 7...). Not expecting much from him but it would be hella badass if he saw play in a format without Rite of Flame.
Not liking consume the meek either. Also trying 2x rewind so i'm pumping teachings up to 3 and seeing how it works alongside hellkite. Dropping snap to 2.
What's wrong with 5 cats?
Sig by DNC/HotP Studios
Don't know the whole list, but he was playing remand, mana leak, cryptic command, AND spell snare.
It also appears he's upped the number of teachings to 3, which from my testing the deck seems like a wise decision
Sig by DNC/HotP Studios
wipes the board, has evasion, and easier to cast.