So is the Nahiri build the only one worth it's salt these days? Has it been a more reliable win-con than the typical spread of Ajani/Elspeth/Keranos/Colonnade etc.?
Pretty much. It gives you a solid way to win out without having to go super long in a 50-minute match. I personally don't like the current builds of Jeskai Nahiri because I think they're way too "all-in." I played Jund this past weekend in Charlotte and got to play against Nahiri Jeskai twice. It's really easy to run them down on protection and make them afraid to even run Nahiri out there. The few times they managed to land a Nahiri, neither player could protect it. I'd basically had to have a super slow hand for either of my Jeskai opponents to land Nahiri, and the second Nahiri Jeskai player said he sided some of them out because of how aggressive game 1 was.
Just some crazy idea. Not sure it should be here or under blue moon.
I tested Nahiri along thing in the ice and it was awful. The thing doesn't flips as consistently with 3-4 nahiris and it fails protecting nahiri (since you'll be better with a counter, path, or a bolt in hand).
So is the Nahiri build the only one worth it's salt these days? Has it been a more reliable win-con than the typical spread of Ajani/Elspeth/Keranos/Colonnade etc.?
Pretty much. It gives you a solid way to win out without having to go super long in a 50-minute match. I personally don't like the current builds of Jeskai Nahiri because I think they're way too "all-in." I played Jund this past weekend in Charlotte and got to play against Nahiri Jeskai twice. It's really easy to run them down on protection and make them afraid to even run Nahiri out there. The few times they managed to land a Nahiri, neither player could protect it. I'd basically had to have a super slow hand for either of my Jeskai opponents to land Nahiri, and the second Nahiri Jeskai player said he sided some of them out because of how aggressive game 1 was.
Thanks for the info. I do love me some UWR but no way am I dropping $150 on a Nahiri playset. I will stick with Jund for the time being I suppose. Seems pretty well positioned.
So is the Nahiri build the only one worth it's salt these days? Has it been a more reliable win-con than the typical spread of Ajani/Elspeth/Keranos/Colonnade etc.?
I personally don't like the current builds of Jeskai Nahiri because I think they're way too "all-in." I played Jund this past weekend in Charlotte and got to play against Nahiri Jeskai twice. It's really easy to run them down on protection and make them afraid to even run Nahiri out there. The few times they managed to land a Nahiri, neither player could protect it. I'd basically had to have a super slow hand for either of my Jeskai opponents to land Nahiri, and the second Nahiri Jeskai player said he sided some of them out because of how aggressive game 1 was.
Jund and Abzan have been traditionally a tough match for URx decks, thoughtseize-tarmo-lili is too difficult to answer IMO. I still think there's room to improve the all-in version, but I don't expect to get a much better match up against BGx.
So is the Nahiri build the only one worth it's salt these days? Has it been a more reliable win-con than the typical spread of Ajani/Elspeth/Keranos/Colonnade etc.?
I personally don't like the current builds of Jeskai Nahiri because I think they're way too "all-in." I played Jund this past weekend in Charlotte and got to play against Nahiri Jeskai twice. It's really easy to run them down on protection and make them afraid to even run Nahiri out there. The few times they managed to land a Nahiri, neither player could protect it. I'd basically had to have a super slow hand for either of my Jeskai opponents to land Nahiri, and the second Nahiri Jeskai player said he sided some of them out because of how aggressive game 1 was.
Jund and Abzan have been traditionally a tough match for URx decks, thoughtseize-tarmo-lili is too difficult to answer IMO. I still think there's room to improve the all-in version, but I don't expect to get a much better match up against BGx.
I would actually suggest being slightly less all-in and only play 3 Nahiri, the Harbinger in a true control shell. That would've given me fits. Also, the need for sweepers is really low these days so if there's some off-beat spot removal you guys want to try, I think now is the time so long as it's cheap and preferably instant-speed.
Oddly enough, while URx decks are closer to 50-50, straight UR Blue Moon is way more slanted towards the control player. That deck gives Jund all sorts of fits if Jund doesn't start with Thoughtseize > Tarmogoyf > any follow up you want. It kind of forces me to consider dropping the white in my Jeskai build now that Jund and Abzan are on an uptick.
I tried 3 copies of nahiri but I wasn't drawing them enough. I'm not on the ancestral vision plus serum visions train though, I kind of feel we are in Xzibit territory drawing cards to draw cards to ease or draws :/. There are a copule of options against bigger creatures:
But I think to suggest those cards is kind of futile as nobody likes them. Also we are discussing a possible build of Izzet control (without blood moons or only as a sideboard option) in here, in case you want to join!
That's the thing. I feel like a lot of these Jeskai decks forget how good they are without using Nahiri to summon spaghetti monsters from the depths of your deck. Jeskai control was one of the few blue control decks out there that worried me. I actually think the matchup is slightly better for us now that they're all over the Nahiri plan instead of just playing her as a threat that generates value as a planeswalking Desolate Lighthouse. How many of you would activate Desolate Lighthouse to possibly pitch cards from a really solid hand? I know I wouldn't.
I cannot tell you how good it makes me feel as a Jund pilot to watch a Jeskai deck sit on 4 or 5 lands and keep pitching mana producing lands to Nahiri. It's so shortsighted and myopic in the grand scheme. Man, it made me giddy every time it happened. Just to illustrate my point, I faced a Grixis control deck in round 4. In game 2 (I won game 1 easily), my opponent resolved 3 Ancestral Vision and had another 1 about to come off suspend when I killed him. As you say, drawing cards just to draw cards is dumb and that's essentially all his deck did. I played threats and killed the few threats he played while he durdled for days. It's just so weird that all the controlling players all of a sudden want to durdle 'til the cows come home. Play threats or a ton of answers people. The rest is all about finding the right balance.
That's the thing. I feel like a lot of these Jeskai decks forget how good they are without using Nahiri to summon spaghetti monsters from the depths of your deck. Jeskai control was one of the few blue control decks out there that worried me. I actually think the matchup is slightly better for us now that they're all over the Nahiri plan instead of just playing her as a threat that generates value as a planeswalking Desolate Lighthouse. How many of you would activate Desolate Lighthouse to possibly pitch cards from a really solid hand? I know I wouldn't.
I cannot tell you how good it makes me feel as a Jund pilot to watch a Jeskai deck sit on 4 or 5 lands and keep pitching mana producing lands to Nahiri. It's so shortsighted and myopic in the grand scheme. Man, it made me giddy every time it happened. Just to illustrate my point, I faced a Grixis control deck in round 4. In game 2 (I won game 1 easily), my opponent resolved 3 Ancestral Vision and had another 1 about to come off suspend when I killed him. As you say, drawing cards just to draw cards is dumb and that's essentially all his deck did. I played threats and killed the few threats he played while he durdled for days. It's just so weird that all the controlling players all of a sudden want to durdle 'til the cows come home. Play threats or a ton of answers people. The rest is all about finding the right balance.
Side note, Nahiri's +2 is a may, so you don't need to pitch cards to uptick her
I'm well aware it's a may ability. I'm just recounting what I saw from how my opponents were playing. I've seen the same sort of thing in online testing as well. People aren't really thinking about what they're doing.
Been trying to follow the conversation, but have been getting confused.
How are these Nahiri builds that have been doing well "all-in"? Dropping down to 3 Nahiri opens up a single slot; which shouldn't swing any matchup to a noticeable degree.
Having the Nahiri combo in a control shell is the opposite of wanting to durdle; it shows a clear strategy of ending the game before it gets to that point. This was a hallmark weakness of previous jeskai builds that couldn't reliably defend themselves into the lategame.
Discard decks will always be difficult to deal with as a blue control deck. Punching a hole in our hand and playing aggressive/resilient threats has been a recipe against us since time immemorial. Nahiri doesn't solve this problem, but rather provides a semblance of proactivity that has traditionally been missing.
TBH I think a lot of people have picked up the Nahiri jeskai deck without a bunch of experience in the archetype. Regardless of how good the combo is, you still have to be good at playing the control game. However that is just a theory.
As a side note the effects of Desolate Lighthouse and Nahiri's +2 are completely different. For instance you nearly always want to activate lighthouse if you can, even if you have a stacked hand. It provides additional information and allows you to sculpt your hand better to your situation. Nahiri on the otherhand requires an upfront investment with an unknown result, and I think it will take some time for people to get used to playing her correctly.
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Been trying to follow the conversation, but have been getting confused.
How are these Nahiri builds that have been doing well "all-in"? Dropping down to 3 Nahiri opens up a single slot; which shouldn't swing any matchup to a noticeable degree.
Having the Nahiri combo in a control shell is the opposite of wanting to durdle; it shows a clear strategy of ending the game before it gets to that point. This was a hallmark weakness of previous jeskai builds that couldn't reliably defend themselves into the lategame.
Discard decks will always be difficult to deal with as a blue control deck. Punching a hole in our hand and playing aggressive/resilient threats has been a recipe against us since time immemorial. Nahiri doesn't solve this problem, but rather provides a semblance of proactivity that has traditionally been missing.
TBH I think a lot of people have picked up the Nahiri jeskai deck without a bunch of experience in the archetype. Regardless of how good the combo is, you still have to be good at playing the control game. However that is just a theory.
As a side note the effects of Desolate Lighthouse and Nahiri's +2 are completely different. For instance you nearly always want to activate lighthouse if you can, even if you have a stacked hand. It provides additional information and allows you to sculpt your hand better to your situation. Nahiri on the otherhand requires an upfront investment with an unknown result, and I think it will take some time for people to get used to playing her correctly.
^This. 100x this. I don't understand how utilizing Nahiri is "all-in." If anything, the old builds like BNG Shaun McLauren's is all-in. But all-in on..."flurry of burn spells and Colonnade hits."
...I mean...really? People think THAT plan is greater than Nahiri? If anything, Nahiri gives flexibility on what you can do, meanwhile also forcing opponents to decide on whether or not they want to interact with Nahiri. Besides, the Bolt-Snap-Bolt plan isn't dead or gone. It's still right ******* there. Nothing's changed on that front. The old Pro Tour BNG builds ran nothing but Snap + Colonnade as a win-con, with a miser Ajani every now and then. Been reading the last 100+ pages before Nahiri was put into the deck; from what I've read, it's not like people were taking advantage of the Nahiri slots on anything particularly useful. An extra Helix here or there. An extra Electrolyze. Sometimes just counter spell packages. Thing in the Ice.
"How about Gideon? How about Archangel Avacyn? How about Baneslayer? Batterskull? Mana Leak vs. Remand. Logic Knot vs. Mana Leak. 4 Leaks vs. 3 Leaks + 1 Remand. X counters and Y different counters. 4 Serum Visions or 3 Serum Visions. 0 Serum Visions, 3 Anticipate."
And freaking Think Twice slots...(Disclaimer: I don't necessarily think Think Twice is bad, just...we have a very powerful and versatile Win-Con that also doubles as removal and card filtration...and yet that's somehow not enough?).
Now I recognize ThopterSword combo and Kiki-Angel builds were also discussed, and those builds are very different. But I feel like to argue for the old "no win-cons outside of Snap-Bolt" being a better build than Nahiri is just plain wrong. She's versatility combined with a very clear and cohesive end-game (and it's not like using her in your deck all of a sudden makes her the ONLY way to win). She doesn't even take many slots in your deck...
I'm well aware it's a may ability. I'm just recounting what I saw from how my opponents were playing. I've seen the same sort of thing in online testing as well. People aren't really thinking about what they're doing.
Agreed here. I've seen and heard people making some poor pitching choices this past weekend.
That's the thing. I feel like a lot of these Jeskai decks forget how good they are without using Nahiri to summon spaghetti monsters from the depths of your deck. Jeskai control was one of the few blue control decks out there that worried me. I actually think the matchup is slightly better for us now that they're all over the Nahiri plan instead of just playing her as a threat that generates value as a planeswalking Desolate Lighthouse. How many of you would activate Desolate Lighthouse to possibly pitch cards from a really solid hand? I know I wouldn't.
I cannot tell you how good it makes me feel as a Jund pilot to watch a Jeskai deck sit on 4 or 5 lands and keep pitching mana producing lands to Nahiri. It's so shortsighted and myopic in the grand scheme. Man, it made me giddy every time it happened. Just to illustrate my point, I faced a Grixis control deck in round 4. In game 2 (I won game 1 easily), my opponent resolved 3 Ancestral Vision and had another 1 about to come off suspend when I killed him. As you say, drawing cards just to draw cards is dumb and that's essentially all his deck did. I played threats and killed the few threats he played while he durdled for days. It's just so weird that all the controlling players all of a sudden want to durdle 'til the cows come home. Play threats or a ton of answers people. The rest is all about finding the right balance.
Unless I'm misunderstanding, how is pitching lands bad, when I already have enough of the lands I'll need on the field? I'm trying to dig deeper into my deck to draw into my answers such as Path/Snapcaster/Wrath effects? Especially against Jund? We also typically have more lands than the specific business spell we're looking for, so I feel like the percentage of drawing land is higher than drawing into action spells. Still, I think forcing through the land clumps is the better play. Of course, this is theory in a vacuum and does change based on the situation.
I do recognize that sometimes I'd rather curve into 6-7 lands so I can get Colonnades active, etc. etc. But that's just a proper judgment call and utilizing the card(s) and resources correctly.
I share the same sentiment as you in regards to "durdle 'till the cows come home." That's why the builds with Serum Visions x4 + Ancestral x4 + Sphinx's Rev or whatever is somewhat odd to me. I'd rather test first before giving a final verdict (need to proxy Ancestrals), but it just seems like I'd be drawing a lot of air.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
As a side note the effects of Desolate Lighthouse and Nahiri's +2 are completely different. For instance you nearly always want to activate lighthouse if you can, even if you have a stacked hand. It provides additional information and allows you to sculpt your hand better to your situation. Nahiri on the otherhand requires an upfront investment with an unknown result, and I think it will take some time for people to get used to playing her correctly.
Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I know Desolate Lighthouse and Nahiri's +2 are different. My point is that many opponents at the GP and in testing prior to the GP treat Nahiri's +2 as a Desolate Lighthouse. By that, I mean they pitch cards that have varying amounts of usefulness in the moment. A lot of times, it didn't make any sense to me. If you absolutely feel that you have to dig for something specific, fine. I get that. In a lot of cases, I couldn't even imagine what it would be, and I do have experience Jeskai control. In any case, that's why I feel a lot of Jeskai pilots out there don't really have a clue what they're doing. It seems to me that they think it's a pure combo deck or something else entirely.
I plainly argued in this forum that Nahiri on her own is good enough to be played in Jeskai when everyone else thought she was garbage on her own. Yes, the combo with Emrakul is good, but I like the utility and the threat she represents. I like fishing up a Snapcaster Mage for value or maybe a sideboard Batterskull because I have my opponent in a bind and now is the time to cast it. These are things I discovered in my testing. Nothing about this deck has changed other than the mindset of the people playing the deck. That is what doesn't make any sense to me.
As a side note the effects of Desolate Lighthouse and Nahiri's +2 are completely different. For instance you nearly always want to activate lighthouse if you can, even if you have a stacked hand. It provides additional information and allows you to sculpt your hand better to your situation. Nahiri on the otherhand requires an upfront investment with an unknown result, and I think it will take some time for people to get used to playing her correctly.
Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I know Desolate Lighthouse and Nahiri's +2 are different. My point is that many opponents at the GP and in testing prior to the GP treat Nahiri's +2 as a Desolate Lighthouse. By that, I mean they pitch cards that have varying amounts of usefulness in the moment. A lot of times, it didn't make any sense to me. If you absolutely feel that you have to dig for something specific, fine. I get that. In a lot of cases, I couldn't even imagine what it would be, and I do have experience Jeskai control. In any case, that's why I feel a lot of Jeskai pilots out there don't really have a clue what they're doing. It seems to me that they think it's a pure combo deck or something else entirely.
I plainly argued in this forum that Nahiri on her own is good enough to be played in Jeskai when everyone else thought she was garbage on her own. Yes, the combo with Emrakul is good, but I like the utility and the threat she represents. I like fishing up a Snapcaster Mage for value or maybe a sideboard Batterskull because I have my opponent in a bind and now is the time to cast it. These are things I discovered in my testing. Nothing about this deck has changed other than the mindset of the people playing the deck. That is what doesn't make any sense to me.
Fair point. I think I see what you mean; when talking about side boarding, anytime I've suggested to side out Emrakul to make space or to avoid dead draws in match-ups that I can't really afford to curdle (and match-ups that don't really need Emmy in the first place), people think I'm speaking blasphemy -- that Nahiri on her own isn't all that great...which is silly, because ulting for Snaps and Clique's isn't inherently a bad deal at all. It's like they forget that the text box doesn't simply read, "Fetch Emrakul." Perhaps we just need time for people to adjust to how she's being played.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
That's the thing. I feel like a lot of these Jeskai decks forget how good they are without using Nahiri to summon spaghetti monsters from the depths of your deck. Jeskai control was one of the few blue control decks out there that worried me. I actually think the matchup is slightly better for us now that they're all over the Nahiri plan instead of just playing her as a threat that generates value as a planeswalking Desolate Lighthouse. How many of you would activate Desolate Lighthouse to possibly pitch cards from a really solid hand? I know I wouldn't.
I have the entierly oposite expirience with the matchup.
Ever since i included Nahiri Jund jumped from a slightly unfavorable matchup to one of my best ones.
Jund has hard time getting rid of Nahiri both in hand and on the field since the 2 of Thoughtseize and the 1 of Maelstrom Pulse are the only mainboard answers in most lists.
The only matchups that Nahiri potentially made worse for me are the hyper aggro ones and even there she serves a purpose, be it as a distraction, forcing them to take a turn off of killing me and deal with her or as a quick way to dispose of my oponent once i stabilize.
I do feel like some people overvalue Nahiri however, many matchups will still revolve around colonades, in those it is often unwise to expend tons of ressources defending nahiri instead of letting them waste theirs and then finishing them with the classic colonnde and bolt plan.
Shame she still does not help much vs Tron =(
And that is generally what I see from the better Nahiri Jeskai pilots. It should make you favorable against GB/x decks, but it's also why I wanted to play my Jund deck more aggressively against all the blue decks out there this past weekend. She's gotta go, man!
Yeah that is why I had that theory about people honestly just not knowing how to play the deck well; especially when hype prompts people to respond quicker and more drastically than normal.
I don't think Nahiri Control or w/e is inherently powerful enough to topple decks that have been tier 1 since forever; however Nahiri IS the best win-con that I have played with recently, and I think most would agree is an upgrade for the archetype.
Jace and the 2 Cliques are a preference thing, since I like playing with those cards. Verdict is something I am unsure about, and I'll probably replace it with another targetted removal like Pillar of Flame, Condemn, etc.
Sideboard is whatever, and changes a lot week to week. Think I am going to try a full on beatdown plan with Geists and Thundermaws.
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Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
Side note, Nahiri's +2 is a may, so you don't need to pitch cards to uptick her
He meant that upon the opportunity to draw a more 'valuable' card players would discard lands even though not missing a land drop is one of the strongest requirements for control to win.
What's up with 3 Colonnades and 1 Fumarole? Usually if one were to play Fumarole, they'd max out on Colonnades first. What's your thoughts on that?
Well it was a couple of things. I wanted another UR source, didn't want to go above 4 manlands, and liked that it could block a turn earlier (ie the turn after you play nahiri).
TBH it hasn't come up much in the games that I have played; so I haven't been able to form a reliable opinion. It was something that I wanted to try out, and in the grand scheme of things Ive found that if I am winning with Colonnade that pretty much any manland would do.
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Nobody mentions Ral Zarek. His -2 is a decent removal and unliek ajani he can use it twice, his ulty is insane with nahiri and with his +1 nahiri can exile any creature and even the cards we struggle against like graffedigger's or bridge. Additionaly he has some protection included with the option to untap a land for snare/path/bolt the round he is played.
When I saw Francis Cellona list the first thing that came to my mind was, "why not rather ral"?
The reason he played tamiyo is that he likes putting her in decks. He used to run her in scapeshift when he played that. Also to see if others would run her too if he did well.
The jund match-up is very favorable if you are playing nahiri and AV. So much so that Jeskai players have dropped all midrange sideboard cards to shore up other more problematic matches.
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Pretty much. It gives you a solid way to win out without having to go super long in a 50-minute match. I personally don't like the current builds of Jeskai Nahiri because I think they're way too "all-in." I played Jund this past weekend in Charlotte and got to play against Nahiri Jeskai twice. It's really easy to run them down on protection and make them afraid to even run Nahiri out there. The few times they managed to land a Nahiri, neither player could protect it. I'd basically had to have a super slow hand for either of my Jeskai opponents to land Nahiri, and the second Nahiri Jeskai player said he sided some of them out because of how aggressive game 1 was.
I tested Nahiri along thing in the ice and it was awful. The thing doesn't flips as consistently with 3-4 nahiris and it fails protecting nahiri (since you'll be better with a counter, path, or a bolt in hand).
Thanks for the info. I do love me some UWR but no way am I dropping $150 on a Nahiri playset. I will stick with Jund for the time being I suppose. Seems pretty well positioned.
Jund and Abzan have been traditionally a tough match for URx decks, thoughtseize-tarmo-lili is too difficult to answer IMO. I still think there's room to improve the all-in version, but I don't expect to get a much better match up against BGx.
I would actually suggest being slightly less all-in and only play 3 Nahiri, the Harbinger in a true control shell. That would've given me fits. Also, the need for sweepers is really low these days so if there's some off-beat spot removal you guys want to try, I think now is the time so long as it's cheap and preferably instant-speed.
Oddly enough, while URx decks are closer to 50-50, straight UR Blue Moon is way more slanted towards the control player. That deck gives Jund all sorts of fits if Jund doesn't start with Thoughtseize > Tarmogoyf > any follow up you want. It kind of forces me to consider dropping the white in my Jeskai build now that Jund and Abzan are on an uptick.
But I think to suggest those cards is kind of futile as nobody likes them. Also we are discussing a possible build of Izzet control (without blood moons or only as a sideboard option) in here, in case you want to join!
I cannot tell you how good it makes me feel as a Jund pilot to watch a Jeskai deck sit on 4 or 5 lands and keep pitching mana producing lands to Nahiri. It's so shortsighted and myopic in the grand scheme. Man, it made me giddy every time it happened. Just to illustrate my point, I faced a Grixis control deck in round 4. In game 2 (I won game 1 easily), my opponent resolved 3 Ancestral Vision and had another 1 about to come off suspend when I killed him. As you say, drawing cards just to draw cards is dumb and that's essentially all his deck did. I played threats and killed the few threats he played while he durdled for days. It's just so weird that all the controlling players all of a sudden want to durdle 'til the cows come home. Play threats or a ton of answers people. The rest is all about finding the right balance.
How are these Nahiri builds that have been doing well "all-in"? Dropping down to 3 Nahiri opens up a single slot; which shouldn't swing any matchup to a noticeable degree.
Having the Nahiri combo in a control shell is the opposite of wanting to durdle; it shows a clear strategy of ending the game before it gets to that point. This was a hallmark weakness of previous jeskai builds that couldn't reliably defend themselves into the lategame.
Discard decks will always be difficult to deal with as a blue control deck. Punching a hole in our hand and playing aggressive/resilient threats has been a recipe against us since time immemorial. Nahiri doesn't solve this problem, but rather provides a semblance of proactivity that has traditionally been missing.
TBH I think a lot of people have picked up the Nahiri jeskai deck without a bunch of experience in the archetype. Regardless of how good the combo is, you still have to be good at playing the control game. However that is just a theory.
As a side note the effects of Desolate Lighthouse and Nahiri's +2 are completely different. For instance you nearly always want to activate lighthouse if you can, even if you have a stacked hand. It provides additional information and allows you to sculpt your hand better to your situation. Nahiri on the otherhand requires an upfront investment with an unknown result, and I think it will take some time for people to get used to playing her correctly.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)^This. 100x this. I don't understand how utilizing Nahiri is "all-in." If anything, the old builds like BNG Shaun McLauren's is all-in. But all-in on..."flurry of burn spells and Colonnade hits."
...I mean...really? People think THAT plan is greater than Nahiri? If anything, Nahiri gives flexibility on what you can do, meanwhile also forcing opponents to decide on whether or not they want to interact with Nahiri. Besides, the Bolt-Snap-Bolt plan isn't dead or gone. It's still right ******* there. Nothing's changed on that front. The old Pro Tour BNG builds ran nothing but Snap + Colonnade as a win-con, with a miser Ajani every now and then. Been reading the last 100+ pages before Nahiri was put into the deck; from what I've read, it's not like people were taking advantage of the Nahiri slots on anything particularly useful. An extra Helix here or there. An extra Electrolyze. Sometimes just counter spell packages. Thing in the Ice.
"How about Gideon? How about Archangel Avacyn? How about Baneslayer? Batterskull? Mana Leak vs. Remand. Logic Knot vs. Mana Leak. 4 Leaks vs. 3 Leaks + 1 Remand. X counters and Y different counters. 4 Serum Visions or 3 Serum Visions. 0 Serum Visions, 3 Anticipate."
And freaking Think Twice slots...(Disclaimer: I don't necessarily think Think Twice is bad, just...we have a very powerful and versatile Win-Con that also doubles as removal and card filtration...and yet that's somehow not enough?).
Now I recognize ThopterSword combo and Kiki-Angel builds were also discussed, and those builds are very different. But I feel like to argue for the old "no win-cons outside of Snap-Bolt" being a better build than Nahiri is just plain wrong. She's versatility combined with a very clear and cohesive end-game (and it's not like using her in your deck all of a sudden makes her the ONLY way to win). She doesn't even take many slots in your deck...
Agreed here. I've seen and heard people making some poor pitching choices this past weekend.
Unless I'm misunderstanding, how is pitching lands bad, when I already have enough of the lands I'll need on the field? I'm trying to dig deeper into my deck to draw into my answers such as Path/Snapcaster/Wrath effects? Especially against Jund? We also typically have more lands than the specific business spell we're looking for, so I feel like the percentage of drawing land is higher than drawing into action spells. Still, I think forcing through the land clumps is the better play. Of course, this is theory in a vacuum and does change based on the situation.
I do recognize that sometimes I'd rather curve into 6-7 lands so I can get Colonnades active, etc. etc. But that's just a proper judgment call and utilizing the card(s) and resources correctly.
I share the same sentiment as you in regards to "durdle 'till the cows come home." That's why the builds with Serum Visions x4 + Ancestral x4 + Sphinx's Rev or whatever is somewhat odd to me. I'd rather test first before giving a final verdict (need to proxy Ancestrals), but it just seems like I'd be drawing a lot of air.
Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I know Desolate Lighthouse and Nahiri's +2 are different. My point is that many opponents at the GP and in testing prior to the GP treat Nahiri's +2 as a Desolate Lighthouse. By that, I mean they pitch cards that have varying amounts of usefulness in the moment. A lot of times, it didn't make any sense to me. If you absolutely feel that you have to dig for something specific, fine. I get that. In a lot of cases, I couldn't even imagine what it would be, and I do have experience Jeskai control. In any case, that's why I feel a lot of Jeskai pilots out there don't really have a clue what they're doing. It seems to me that they think it's a pure combo deck or something else entirely.
I plainly argued in this forum that Nahiri on her own is good enough to be played in Jeskai when everyone else thought she was garbage on her own. Yes, the combo with Emrakul is good, but I like the utility and the threat she represents. I like fishing up a Snapcaster Mage for value or maybe a sideboard Batterskull because I have my opponent in a bind and now is the time to cast it. These are things I discovered in my testing. Nothing about this deck has changed other than the mindset of the people playing the deck. That is what doesn't make any sense to me.
Fair point. I think I see what you mean; when talking about side boarding, anytime I've suggested to side out Emrakul to make space or to avoid dead draws in match-ups that I can't really afford to curdle (and match-ups that don't really need Emmy in the first place), people think I'm speaking blasphemy -- that Nahiri on her own isn't all that great...which is silly, because ulting for Snaps and Clique's isn't inherently a bad deal at all. It's like they forget that the text box doesn't simply read, "Fetch Emrakul." Perhaps we just need time for people to adjust to how she's being played.
And that is generally what I see from the better Nahiri Jeskai pilots. It should make you favorable against GB/x decks, but it's also why I wanted to play my Jund deck more aggressively against all the blue decks out there this past weekend. She's gotta go, man!
I don't think Nahiri Control or w/e is inherently powerful enough to topple decks that have been tier 1 since forever; however Nahiri IS the best win-con that I have played with recently, and I think most would agree is an upgrade for the archetype.
This is the list I have been playing recently:
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Planeswalkers 4
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
Spells 23
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Serum Visions
2 Lightning Helix
2 Cryptic Command
2 Spell Snare
2 Remand
1 Mana Leak
1 Logic Knot
1 Electrolyze
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Celestial Colonnade
1 Wandering Fumerol
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Tectonic Edge
Jace and the 2 Cliques are a preference thing, since I like playing with those cards. Verdict is something I am unsure about, and I'll probably replace it with another targetted removal like Pillar of Flame, Condemn, etc.
Sideboard is whatever, and changes a lot week to week. Think I am going to try a full on beatdown plan with Geists and Thundermaws.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)He meant that upon the opportunity to draw a more 'valuable' card players would discard lands even though not missing a land drop is one of the strongest requirements for control to win.
Well it was a couple of things. I wanted another UR source, didn't want to go above 4 manlands, and liked that it could block a turn earlier (ie the turn after you play nahiri).
TBH it hasn't come up much in the games that I have played; so I haven't been able to form a reliable opinion. It was something that I wanted to try out, and in the grand scheme of things Ive found that if I am winning with Colonnade that pretty much any manland would do.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)The reason he played tamiyo is that he likes putting her in decks. He used to run her in scapeshift when he played that. Also to see if others would run her too if he did well.