G1: He starts off with Blackleave cliffs, Inqusition of Kozliek, takes my geist, thats fine
I draw a spell snare, and see his dark confidant go right to the graveyard! good start for me. It turns out he really needed that. because he is stuck with that cliffs and a forest. on his t4 after draw i flash in my drawn v clique, reveal a lot of good stuff but he only has 2 lands, so i dont take anything (Iok, K command, Liliana of the V, terminate and bolt).
He bolts it, then i draw my other one, then i repeat and get his goyf out of his hand, and answer a bob on the board with a path before his turn started. I play Elspeth next turn and he takes 7, then i basically ride her to victory. he has a split second of hope when he tops a scavenging ooze, but i top deck an electrolyze and he is pretty upset at this point lol He answers my tokens for a few turns, but i draw a Colonnade and ride that with the elspeth to my g1 win. He was stuck on 3 lands the whole game.
G2: This game, was a lot more back and forth. I got rid of 2 dark confidants, and honestly thats the most significant i can remember of it. It was a lot of back and forth on resources, he was flooding out pretty hardcore and my resources were lining up perfectly. A 'from the hand' bonfire takes care of huntmaster, a zombie left over from a Geth, and a wolf, which felt pretty amazing but horrible to pay 7 mana for lol ride elspeth (4 drop) and colonnade both to the win for this round as well
Beat Lantern Control 2-1
G1: Nothing special here gang, he gets an early ensnaring bridge, and chills until he hits an Ghirapur Æther Grid. i am drawing ok here, and get him down to 5 life with the burn until he kills me. Oh well! first time ever playing against this so.. lets see whats up lol
Sideboard: -2 resto, -1 thundermaw, -1 bonfire, -2 path, +2 stony silence, +1 EE +1 Wear/Tear, +1 negate, +1 dispel, +1 pithing needle (kept 2 in because of spellskite coming in redirecting my burn spells)
G2: turn 1 serum visions, t2 stony silence, hells yeah so he just plays a lot of 1 drop artifacts, but no Ensnaring Bridge! so i lay a V Clique on his draw step t4, and i take an ancient stirings.
i attack with that a few times, i spell snare a Sun Droplet to keep on the pressure and the burn, then start attacking with a colonnade that i drew into. our libraries are revealed, i see he has a ghost quarter coming up, so i ask a judge to be sure, but i pithing needle, naming ghost quarter, so my Colonnade is safe! and he cracks up when i do it lol So i WIN THIS ONE! WHOOP!
G3: so he keeps a no lander, for some reason... i guess his hand was the nuts if he had land, anyways. i go t2 lightning helix, then a t3 geist. t4 i land a clique, then t5 i lay elspeth and a colonnade tapped. he hits his first land on his t3, and doesn't really do much. I wreck him this game. and it feels great lol
Loss Abzan Company 1-2 tomorrow
i didn't take the same amount of notes. with this deck... there would be like 5 pages lol im stuck on a steam vents and a ghost quarter for the longest time, but he eats both spell snares that i draw. Long story short, i get down to 6, and I swing for 14 from a geist, an on board elsepth, and a thundermaw hellkite for the win!
Sideboard: I honestly have no idea what i brought out, but i brought in a dispel, 2 negate, EE, supreme verdict,
G2: very fast and bad., NO counter magic was drawn, and he infinite life pretty early lol
G3: grindy as hell, but he kills me creature style in combat, in turn 3 of turns. i was flooding out hardcore this game, and no celestial colonnades.
Intentional draw for the last round, the guy had to leave and I was nice.
Thoughts:
-Bonfire is gone. It's very not good lol
-Thundermaw hellkite is amazeballs.
-I changed Gideon to elspeth knight errant and she was fantastic. Wanting another mainboard. Seriously. She kicked ass.
-electrolyze seems great, I want to put another mainboard if I can.
-Vendilion Clique was awesome. I loved seeing it, 2 mainboard seems great for my build.
-spell snare is the BEEZE-MOTHA-FREAKIN-NEEZE.
- I'm not sure if I'm a control or midrange deck so I posted here and as well as midrange. Would appreciate the input gang
You are clearly a midrange deck. I have no advice for you besides that Eiganjo Castle works wonders alongside geist.
Unfortunately every try hard from Sacramento to Shanghai preaches from the top of their 27 lands + Mana Reflection that Tooth and Nail and Time Stretch are fine to play in the same turn but Armageddon is unfair.
Basically I have moved over to UW Tron because I didn't have Ancestral Vision. Trying to decide if Visions has been what Jeskai has been looking for or if something like this that plays enough artifacts for Thirst is viable. Some people have remarked that Vision has been great. I am a little worried that Visions is too slow for my meta. No one is really running it in Jeskai but my friends who have been running it in Grixis haven't been doing well.
Maybe I've just missed them but I've only really seen UW Thopter // Sword lists, Jeskai control running Visions or Midrange w/o Visions and working on a more Flash game.
Basically I have moved over to UW Tron because I didn't have Ancestral Vision. Trying to decide if Visions has been what Jeskai has been looking for or if something like this that plays enough artifacts for Thirst is viable. Some people have remarked that Vision has been great. I am a little worried that Visions is too slow for my meta. No one is really running it in Jeskai but my friends who have been running it in Grixis haven't been doing well.
Maybe I've just missed them but I've only really seen UW Thopter // Sword lists, Jeskai control running Visions or Midrange w/o Visions and working on a more Flash game.
Your meta is too fast for them to spend a single blue mana?
Basically I have moved over to UW Tron because I didn't have Ancestral Vision. Trying to decide if Visions has been what Jeskai has been looking for or if something like this that plays enough artifacts for Thirst is viable. Some people have remarked that Vision has been great. I am a little worried that Visions is too slow for my meta. No one is really running it in Jeskai but my friends who have been running it in Grixis haven't been doing well.
Maybe I've just missed them but I've only really seen UW Thopter // Sword lists, Jeskai control running Visions or Midrange w/o Visions and working on a more Flash game.
Your meta is too fast for them to spend a single blue mana?
I find that hard to believe.
Probably too fast to spend a single mana and a card that does functionally nothing until turn 5 in the best circumstances.
Regardless of how powerful AV is, it is a slow card that takes the slots of other spells.
As for that thopter-sword list. I have seen other similar configurations in top 8 lists, however I am unsure if the numbers/choices are from genuine testing or they just happen to be copying the other decklists that have succeeded. I will give the benefit of the doubt and believe that maybe the thopter sword plan works. EE is a decent sweeper, Thirst is a decent to good draw spell, and you run all the generic answers jeskai offers. The strategy seems sound.
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The Thopter combo definitely works well in Jeskai, but I feel that if you want that as your gameplan you're much better off in the Tezzerator shell; you get discard, better TFKs and most of all a freaking planeswalker that can fetch you your wincon. It's just like how UR twin generally tended to be the best twin variant; even though jeskai and grixis versions had access to more cards, UR versions were just much more proactive and set on getting the combo out. In modern, proactive is always the best strategy
I think a dedicated tezzerator deck does more to get the combo setup, while the jeskai version in question just uses it when it has the time. This offers the option of just playing a normal game with the occasional free win when you get the nut draw.
Also I wouldn't say that UR twin was more proactive with getting the combo out since UR, grixis, and jeskai twin ran similar number of combo pieces and the same number of cantrips. The super dedicated combo lists that ran dispels and Pact of Negation and kiki-jikis to go for the combo earlier fell out of favor being replaced with a more streamlined list that could play a tempo/burn plan with the threat of a combo win at any moment.
Grixis/jeskai twin had their better matchups, but UR twin was popular because it had pretty much the same tools with better mana and Blood Moon.
W/e I guess it doesn't matter anyways lol. Either way I think the jeskai thopter sword shell has some merits worth exploring. It is definitely the only thopter sword lists I have been seeing recently. The thopter/gifts or thopter/tezz synergies tend to be slower and less versatile. If you can't reliably defend yourself, or actively push for an advantage before turn 4 then you need to be doing something else (at least in this metagame).
I'll have to do more research to see if other thopter/sword lists have been croppping up anywhere.
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As someone else said It's takes too many turns to get going. My meta is full of Burn, Infect and Affinity. Granted none of those are really that difficult of match ups if you come prepared. Mostly I've just been told by my friends who play Grixis that they have been struggling. It may just be that stock Grixis lists are too slow. I will probably just buy a playset and run it myself. I'm pretty much the only person running Jeskai at my store.
Grixis runs Terminate instead of Path, and Kolaghan's Command is generally worse than Electrolyze in fast matchups. UWR is much better positioned against Blitz than Grixis.
Honestly, without Jace + Thoughtseize I don't know why people bother playing Grixis. I think everyone just associates UWR with the Snapcaster-only Control builds that disappointed for so long. I think Visions has been great, so far.
You definitely want to build around that "fundamental turn" that your Turn 1 Visions comes off suspend. In my mind that means more positional advantage permanents (i.e. planeswalkers) at CMC 4 and 5, so that you can either drop one without it dying on turn 4 and untap with Visions on 5, or you can trade resources early and draw into it (and/or the final land to cast it) on turn 5. Basically you just want to make sure it's the slowest thing happening in your deck, and that you don't run other durdle cards like Think Twice or Revelation. It's also awkward to run 12+ spot removal spells, 4 Snapcaster, Visions, etc., and Visions into Verdict on an empty board.
If you can stomach not looking like a Control deck, UWR can close out games far faster than Grixis can, on account of Colonnade and the fact that white gets the planeswalkers with the highest board presence. Gideon + Colonnade is 10 damage/turn, for example, and Elspeth is slower but is essentially the unbeatable "Black Ship" of creature-based Magic.
Yeah, Sun's Champion. Burn, Infect and Affinity don't care about her, which is why I run Gideon/Ajani instead, but Jund, Grixis, Junk Company, etc. basically can never beat it. They technically have outs but you normally just win. I ran her in an Esper deck and had a game against Elves where the guy boarded in Fecundity. Should have been good against wrath.dec, but yeah, Elspeth.
honestly the more I think about the advantages of jeskai over grixis, this card right here basically carries our entire deck
With most lists running ~3 helixes and 4 snaps we get to play with incredibly powerful removal whilst at the same time starting at 26 life. Against a field full of aggro that is just incredibly powerful
Tried out grixis just for fun, made me really miss uwr. K-command is great, but only in the midrange matchups where both of you are doing nothing just grinding out value and chaining snapcasters. There were plenty of times where I wish it was electrolyze. Will definitely be sticking to uwr.
honestly the more I think about the advantages of jeskai over grixis, this card right here basically carries our entire deck
With most lists running ~3 helixes and 4 snaps we get to play with incredibly powerful removal whilst at the same time starting at 26 life. Against a field full of aggro that is just incredibly powerful
I've been at 4 Helix for a long time. It gives you so much time to set up with that extra life.
I run a full playset of Helix in the sideboard, but none in the maindeck. The matchups where your opponent cares about you fusing Healing Salve to Lightning Bolt are the ones you're already favored in. For the rest of the matchups, those extra Helix are what push you into "glorified Burn deck" territory.
I also run 3x Clique and 3x Planeswalkers maindeck though, so it's just a different build altogether.
I think thopter-sword can also be included on that list, but in a tentative position.
As for the Nahiri combo I think the strategy is theoretically sound for the reasons you mentioned, and various pros/streamers have been talking about the list; so I think it is more than hype. However without testing and showing results in actual tournaments it is very hard to judge whether it is genuinely better or worse than other available options.
For instance it is easy to understand the strengths of the deck when it is firing on all pistons, however what happens in the bad to worst case scenario draws? How does Nahiri/Emmy work/feel in those situations? Also does the combo promote playing more or less of other card types (removal, counters, cantrips, card draw, etc)?
So basically my answer is that it seems perfectly viable, but not worth dropping a list you are comfortable with to go all-in on this plan (yet).
Luckily we have a slew of mid-to-large modern tournaments coming up in the next couple of weeks. Considering Jeskai control/midrange has been a non-negligible portion of the metagame; hopefully there will be a better idea of what is working and what isnt.
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I personally have been testing Nahiri without the combo for a while. The combo just gives you a faster, more consistent way to end games that isn't nearly as flimsy and Kiki-Angel. I think it's absolutely what Jeskai control needs. Nahiri on its own has pretty good utility from what I've found. I've been running 1 Nahiri without the combo in my deck for a few FNMs, and it's been surprisingly good. Now I'm not saying sleeve up a playset for Charlotte or LA, but I don't think this is just hype. I feel like it's a legit deal. Even Legacy Miracles is playing Nahiri.
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You are clearly a midrange deck. I have no advice for you besides that Eiganjo Castle works wonders alongside geist.
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?event_ID=29&t[T2]=28&start_date=2016-05-01&end_date=2016-05-01&state=PA&city=York&order_1=finish&limit=8&t_num=1&action=Show+Decks
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Crucible Of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Cryptic Command
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
2 Remand
2 Spell Snare
1 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Academy Ruins
Running the Thopter Foundry // Sword combo is interesting. Maybe I like Thirst for Knowledge too much.
Looks pretty stock. What were you looking for in terms of commentary?
Maybe I've just missed them but I've only really seen UW Thopter // Sword lists, Jeskai control running Visions or Midrange w/o Visions and working on a more Flash game.
Your meta is too fast for them to spend a single blue mana?
I find that hard to believe.
Probably too fast to spend a single mana and a card that does functionally nothing until turn 5 in the best circumstances.
Regardless of how powerful AV is, it is a slow card that takes the slots of other spells.
As for that thopter-sword list. I have seen other similar configurations in top 8 lists, however I am unsure if the numbers/choices are from genuine testing or they just happen to be copying the other decklists that have succeeded. I will give the benefit of the doubt and believe that maybe the thopter sword plan works. EE is a decent sweeper, Thirst is a decent to good draw spell, and you run all the generic answers jeskai offers. The strategy seems sound.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Also I wouldn't say that UR twin was more proactive with getting the combo out since UR, grixis, and jeskai twin ran similar number of combo pieces and the same number of cantrips. The super dedicated combo lists that ran dispels and Pact of Negation and kiki-jikis to go for the combo earlier fell out of favor being replaced with a more streamlined list that could play a tempo/burn plan with the threat of a combo win at any moment.
Grixis/jeskai twin had their better matchups, but UR twin was popular because it had pretty much the same tools with better mana and Blood Moon.
W/e I guess it doesn't matter anyways lol. Either way I think the jeskai thopter sword shell has some merits worth exploring. It is definitely the only thopter sword lists I have been seeing recently. The thopter/gifts or thopter/tezz synergies tend to be slower and less versatile. If you can't reliably defend yourself, or actively push for an advantage before turn 4 then you need to be doing something else (at least in this metagame).
I'll have to do more research to see if other thopter/sword lists have been croppping up anywhere.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Honestly, without Jace + Thoughtseize I don't know why people bother playing Grixis. I think everyone just associates UWR with the Snapcaster-only Control builds that disappointed for so long. I think Visions has been great, so far.
You definitely want to build around that "fundamental turn" that your Turn 1 Visions comes off suspend. In my mind that means more positional advantage permanents (i.e. planeswalkers) at CMC 4 and 5, so that you can either drop one without it dying on turn 4 and untap with Visions on 5, or you can trade resources early and draw into it (and/or the final land to cast it) on turn 5. Basically you just want to make sure it's the slowest thing happening in your deck, and that you don't run other durdle cards like Think Twice or Revelation. It's also awkward to run 12+ spot removal spells, 4 Snapcaster, Visions, etc., and Visions into Verdict on an empty board.
If you can stomach not looking like a Control deck, UWR can close out games far faster than Grixis can, on account of Colonnade and the fact that white gets the planeswalkers with the highest board presence. Gideon + Colonnade is 10 damage/turn, for example, and Elspeth is slower but is essentially the unbeatable "Black Ship" of creature-based Magic.
With most lists running ~3 helixes and 4 snaps we get to play with incredibly powerful removal whilst at the same time starting at 26 life. Against a field full of aggro that is just incredibly powerful
I've been at 4 Helix for a long time. It gives you so much time to set up with that extra life.
I also run 3x Clique and 3x Planeswalkers maindeck though, so it's just a different build altogether.
As for the Nahiri combo I think the strategy is theoretically sound for the reasons you mentioned, and various pros/streamers have been talking about the list; so I think it is more than hype. However without testing and showing results in actual tournaments it is very hard to judge whether it is genuinely better or worse than other available options.
For instance it is easy to understand the strengths of the deck when it is firing on all pistons, however what happens in the bad to worst case scenario draws? How does Nahiri/Emmy work/feel in those situations? Also does the combo promote playing more or less of other card types (removal, counters, cantrips, card draw, etc)?
So basically my answer is that it seems perfectly viable, but not worth dropping a list you are comfortable with to go all-in on this plan (yet).
Luckily we have a slew of mid-to-large modern tournaments coming up in the next couple of weeks. Considering Jeskai control/midrange has been a non-negligible portion of the metagame; hopefully there will be a better idea of what is working and what isnt.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)