I haven't had much to say in a little while, but I noticed on the last page people were discussing the Grixis match up. What exactly is the general consensus on this match up? I personally hope to sit across from grixis every round because I've done nothing but roflstomp Grixis up and down with "Pure" Jeskai. Most of the other prominent Jeskai players in my area agree as well that we are heavily favored in that match.
In my testing so far, we're usually favoured against Grixis. Their grindy cards sure are good, but our removal is infinitely better, and our late game is also stronger. Grixis is comparable to Jund in the sense that they're both midrangey and have a similar plan (though Jund is more creature based). Their AVs sure are strong, but they have to ask us to have them, not the other way around. Ours usually resolve unless they want to waste cards.
The grixis matchup could go either way depending on the builds of both decks. For instance if they are a more midrangy build (blue jund) then your removal suite backed up with better/more permission spells means you have a leg up. Or if you are running little/no creatures then you dead their removal spells game 1.
However if they pack their own permission or have more discard, then that allows them to punch a hole in your hand and take a hold of the game putting you on the back foot.
Also if the grixis build is heavily reliant on the GY (Jace, Anglers, Tasigurs, etc); then biting the bullet and dropping a Rest in Peace gives you a big advantage. Although Grixis has been moving away from the Thought Scour + Tasigur + Angler builds in favor of jamming some number of AV and Serum Visions (yes they run both).
Running the full 4 Colonnades are a pretty big boon in control mirrors as well.
All in all I put the largest stock in player skill. The advantages to be gained from decks alone would amount to 45-55 tops in either direction, which leaves it to pilots to determine the outcome.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
So... how difficult is UWR control to play?
I've been a long time Grixis Control player (used to play Twin) but I feel like AV benefits UWR colors the most.
Both strategies can benefit from AV.
But be careful, I've been getting attacked on here for saying AV is a better choice than Think Twice and that Mana Leak is likely better than Logic Knot. I've found several members of the UWR group to be extremely caustic.
If that's all you said, no one would care. You keep making demonstrative statements that are outright wrong. Stop being a drama queen.
No, people said Logic Knot is Fantastic in Modern. It's demonstrably false. And I gave the reasons. People are free to like any card they want, but if someone says something that's obviously false people will call him on it.
In the right shell, Logic Knot is fantastic. In Esper Draw-Go we normally run 2 Snaps, and that's the only way we interact with our yard. Logic Knot is amazing in such a list (I run 3), and it is relevant at all points in the game. If the yard interaction is minimal with Jeskai (4 Snaps) then Logic Knot is likely a great card as a 1 or 2 of. Turn 2 you only have to exile 1 fetch for it to be relevant, and by late game there will be so many dead cards in the yard that it is still strong. It seems as if you haven't used Logic Knot in a list with minimal graveyard recursion, or maybe not at all since lists aren't placing with this card in the 75. Regardless of whether you have or not, I recommend testing it again in a list that doesn't revolve around card advantage generated from the graveyard.
Thanks for the comments. I have actually used Logic Knot on and off. I'm contending it's a playable, as opposed to fantastic. Mana Leak is just typically better.Having to get UU on T2 to play a 2 mana force spike is pretty weak. My contention that early game Mana Leak is easier to cast and doesn't have to worry about how many cards are in the yard. I'd love for this card to be good, I don't dislike it. But it isn't fantastic in any measurable way. There is an argument to be made that Dissolve is stronger and again that card isn't a strong playable. One more colorless for hard counter plus scry.
Went to the local night of magic and got second place with a 3-1-0.
GAMES:
Merfolks (2-0)
It was a weird deck considering he played a splash of red to run lightning Bolt and jori en (Who incredibly gave him a lot of card advantage) the first match i countered all his fishes and the few ones he got to play I dealt with them with bolts and path to exile, I landed Keranos and he got me the game. The second one he went full fishes on me but a supreme verdict on the topdeck gave me the game. I finished him with bolts and snappys.
Naya burn (2-0)
This is the variation that runs wild nacatl. Not much to say, the first game he got mana flooded and the second mana screwed, when I got under 10 life I played a timely reinforcements that helped a lot and finished the game with elspeth.
Naya Burn (2-1)
Same deck, different player. Seems like people here in Argentina playing burn are big fans of the cat. The first game he started so fast that I could barely anything, he finished me by turn 3. The second one an opening-hand white line gave me the game, bc him not having any creatures. The third one was t2 spellskite, t3 timely reinforcements and t5 snap timely. He ran out of fuel and I finished him with burn.
Grixis Control (1-2)
Another weird deck, he ran a lot of manlands (full playset of fumarole). He won me first game with a lot of hand disruption and beating me with his lands and a snap. Second one I managed to land a leyline and answer all his threats and won easily. The third one he played t1 AV and t2 AV AV. I had no chance with all the hand disruption and card advantage.
Overall it was a great night and although I did some missplays I managed to get a great result (the luck with the topdeck also helped).I was testing big Elspeth on main but just got to play her once. I definetely need to get 4 AV and replace the Think Twice.
Went to the local night of magic and got second place with a 3-1-0.
GAMES:
Merfolks (2-0)
It was a weird deck considering he played a splash of red to run lightning Bolt and jori en (Who incredibly gave him a lot of card advantage) the first match i countered all his fishes and the few ones he got to play I dealt with them with bolts and path to exile, I landed Keranos and he got me the game. The second one he went full fishes on me but a supreme verdict on the topdeck gave me the game. I finished him with bolts and snappys.
Naya burn (2-0)
This is the variation that runs wild nacatl. Not much to say, the first game he got mana flooded and the second mana screwed, when I got under 10 life I played a timely reinforcements that helped a lot and finished the game with elspeth.
Naya Burn (2-1)
Same deck, different player. Seems like people here in Argentina playing burn are big fans of the cat. The first game he started so fast that I could barely anything, he finished me by turn 3. The second one an opening-hand white line gave me the game, bc him not having any creatures. The third one was t2 spellskite, t3 timely reinforcements and t5 snap timely. He ran out of fuel and I finished him with burn.
Grixis Control (1-2)
Another weird deck, he ran a lot of manlands (full playset of fumarole). He won me first game with a lot of hand disruption and beating me with his lands and a snap. Second one I managed to land a leyline and answer all his threats and won easily. The third one he played t1 AV and t2 AV AV. I had no chance with all the hand disruption and card advantage.
Overall it was a great night and although I did some missplays I managed to get a great result (the luck with the topdeck also helped).I was testing big Elspeth on main but just got to play her once. I definetely need to get 4 AV and replace the Think Twice.
They perform a similar role, and each has their benefits however I think it is sub-optimal to run more than 1 Logic Knot in any list.
The prohibitive mana cost (minor, but a non-zero factor) along with its diminishing returns means casting multiples of the spell gets worse and worse. Lists without dedicated cantrips (Serum Visions, Thought Scour, Gitaxian Probe, etc) will have an even harder time. Not to mention the real cost of thinning out your GY making your Snapcasters worse. For instance if you really need to force spike them for 2 in the early game might mean delving a bolt, whereas leak would have just gotten the job done.
On average I have 3-4 cards in my GY by turn 4, meaning that Logic Knot is looking to outpace Mana Leak by turn 5+.
I think the card its good enough to be competitive, especially since we have few ways to capitalize on our GY outside of Snaps. In the past we had flashback spells (Think Twice) or other delve spells (TC or DTT), but now...
I personally run a 3 Remand 1 Mana Leak 1 Izzet Charm split, but that is because of how my list is tailored (I run Thing in the Ice).
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
They perform a similar role, and each has their benefits however I think it is sub-optimal to run more than 1 Logic Knot in any list.
The prohibitive mana cost (minor, but a non-zero factor) along with its diminishing returns means casting multiples of the spell gets worse and worse. Lists without dedicated cantrips (Serum Visions, Thought Scour, Gitaxian Probe, etc) will have an even harder time. Not to mention the real cost of thinning out your GY making your Snapcasters worse. For instance if you really need to force spike them for 2 in the early game might mean delving a bolt, whereas leak would have just gotten the job done.
On average I have 3-4 cards in my GY by turn 4, meaning that Logic Knot is looking to outpace Mana Leak by turn 5+.
I think the card its good enough to be competitive, especially since we have few ways to capitalize on our GY outside of Snaps. In the past we had flashback spells (Think Twice) or other delve spells (TC or DTT), but now...
I personally run a 3 Remand 1 Mana Leak 1 Izzet Charm split, but that is because of how my list is tailored (I run Thing in the Ice).
i don't think it should be anymore than a 2-of.... but on average you will have at least 1 card in the yard and most likely two if you run serum...
on the mana castability let me say that is a very infrequent occurrence if you are using anything close to a standard jeskai manabase...
you would need exactly sacred foundry/utility land with colonnade/shock AND no fetches PLUS logic knot in your hand.... the former is about 5% and my math isn't precise enough to calculate the latter but i'm estimating it to be 1%... that's one out of every 100 games... and that's not taking into account you might want to do something else on that turn.. which you probably can't do if you carry mana leak...
the more frequent occurrence is that you have a double shock/colonnade hand with nothing in the yard... but again it's not that common...
altogether i would say the two are less than 5% and probably in the 2% range....
you then weight that on the times you get to turn 5+ where logic knot is clearly superior... and i think it's pretty clear that it definitely should take spots away from leak...
Does anyone have experience running this deck with more of a tempo package? Say, 3 Restos, 2 Walls, 4 Snaps, and 1 P+K. Maybe a Clique or two.
Of course. This is closer to a midrange build, but the lines of control and midrange have been blurred so much in this format that the distinction is almost nonexistent.
Flash creatures give you an avenue to hold up mana to make the choice of answering what your opponent is doing or going on the offensive, not to mention the benefit of being able to ambush block or get value (Wall + Resto, Clique, etc).
Running between 10-15 creatures means you have less answers, but you balance this with being able to turn the corner faster (thus cutting their draws).
Either more midrange or control hasn't proven definitively better or worse, and seems more of a preference/metagame choice.
I personally like to end the game a little bit quicker because modern has way too many avenues of attack for me to feel safe. It feels like every deck has ways to come back, be it because you draw poorly or your answers don't line up correctly. For instance Infect can build a hand of protection/pump spells to kill you even in the lategame with an Inkmoth Nexus or burn can topdeck the last points of damage to punk you out.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I'm a big fan of cliques in the sideboard (1 main 2 side seems good).
Its half as fast as geist, but the disruption is nice vs tron/scapeshift/what have you.
Scapeshift also sometimes plays creatures (surrak, huntmaster, obstinate baloth, thragtusk, etc) which all wall geist pretty well, if we don't have removal.
To that end, I would likely not cut the clique you've got.
That being said, keranos could become another (faster) wincon potentially.
Personally, timely rienforcements is only alright, so its a fine cut.
You also have 2 verdicts main (as well as a ***** ton of removal, because its jeskai), you might not need one sideboarded.
Since the AV unban I started to play the hard control list (for the first time ever, because I could never resist my dear Restoration Angels) and at my local tournaments I'm at 20-7 so far. Right now I'm satisfied with the list and our current position in the meta.
In addition I'm preparing for the upcoming MKM Series in Frankfurt (Germany) which will likely have over 400 players for the modern event.
My Sideboard is primarily tweaked for my local meta, so I have to change it up a little bit for Frankfurt. Decks like Tron or Scapeshift are underrepresented in my area and I think that these are some tough matchups. Furthermore some friends asked me whether I don't need some faster win options like Geist of Saint Traft in the sideboard against the decks mentioned earlier. I'm still pondering about it, but what's your general opinion on this matter?
Right now I'd do the following sideboard changes:
-1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Timely Reinforcements
+2 Crumble to Dust
Main deck looks like a solid stock control list.
Here are my sideboard thoughts on a wide open field with a large attendance:
-Need at least 2 slots dedicated to burn. Burn variants are a super popular tier 1 strategy, and you have 5+ cards in the main that sideboard out.
-Cut the Supreme Verdict for a Wrath of God. Green decks are packing Thrun, the Last Troll.
-Anger of the Gods seems well positioned right now. Little Zoo decks, Collected Company, etc.
-Need some form of GY hate. Way to many strategies rely on this axis. Abzan Coco, Grishoalbrand, Dredgevine, Living End, etc.
-A card worth considering is Aven Mindcensor. It does work against Scapeshift, Chord of Calling, and Tron; while giving you a form of pressure.
Pretty much you are gonna have to choose which battles to fight with your sideboard, since just hedging against everything is impossible. I know the European metagame differs from the North American scene slightly. This is probably the biggest problem with the controlling versions of the deck, it doesn't fair well in large tournaments.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Since the AV unban I started to play the hard control list (for the first time ever, because I could never resist my dear Restoration Angels) and at my local tournaments I'm at 20-7 so far. Right now I'm satisfied with the list and our current position in the meta.
In addition I'm preparing for the upcoming MKM Series in Frankfurt (Germany) which will likely have over 400 players for the modern event.
My Sideboard is primarily tweaked for my local meta, so I have to change it up a little bit for Frankfurt. Decks like Tron or Scapeshift are underrepresented in my area and I think that these are some tough matchups. Furthermore some friends asked me whether I don't need some faster win options like Geist of Saint Traft in the sideboard against the decks mentioned earlier. I'm still pondering about it, but what's your general opinion on this matter?
Right now I'd do the following sideboard changes:
-1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Timely Reinforcements
+2 Crumble to Dust
Nice results! On the matter of sideboarding Geist; I personally really dislike it. I've tried it a ton of times in several differen UW(x) builds but it takes up a ton of space and isn't actually all that good. First of all Geist's hexproof basically doesn't matter game 2 as your opponent should have sided out spot removal, and many decks you'd want to race run sweepers. Secondly 3 mana is just really awkward to cast against many combo decks, being tapped out on their turn 4 (generally modern's combo turn) if you're on the draw. Finally it just takes up too much space in the sideboard, requiring you to devote at least 2, probably 3 slots to it to reliably draw it fast enough.
I've had a lot of success with mainboard geists though with this list:
The gameplan is basically to blank all your opponent's removal, control until AV resolves, then put down Geist and kill everything that tries to block. I run Shinka over Eiganjo as I needed more red sources and first strike geist + bolt kills pretty much everything in the format. Jace AoT is there over Ajani as a concession to Lingering Souls
I like the Geist of Saint Traft concept. I have long felt like this deck needs a way to win outside of snap & man land beats w/ burn spells. Kiki & Resto is one option I've seen succeed here and there. Some people tried Thopter/Sword at states, although I haven't been able to make myself comfortable with it yet.
The Geist plan you describe makes me think of a pure control deck with maybe 1-2 copies of Narset, Enlightened Master to win. What that sees play kills her in game 1? Also, I'm pretty sure she can cast Ancestral Vision for free similar to Goblin Dark-Dwellers. She even has first strike out of the box.
Not at all. I've played her out of the sideboard against decks that aren't hyper aggressive to great effect. Narset, Enlightened Master is really good, but you definitely need to tune your deck a little so that her triggered ability is less likely to hit useless stuff. It doesn't take much to get there either. The problem now is that hyper aggressive decks are everywhere. I think she would be a dead card more often these days.
Narset, enlightened master can be killed by Liliana of the veil -2, any 4-mana wrath, she can be profitably blocked by many of Abzan's bigger creatures, like Rhino (though that means she attacked, and therefor presumably cast some non-creature spells, giving you some value). It's true that not many things kill Narset, but it is also true she costs 6, and the popular decks have ways to kill her.
However, the biggest issue I have with her is that she is a card you cannot cast until turn 6. Drawing such a card in the early game is a liability, and can only be justified if she provides a huge swing in your favor. Elspeth, sun's champion, fits that bill. Narset? she does little the turn she ETB, and the here is still the chance of attacking just to flip a mana leak, a couple of lands, and a lighting bolt Sure, she could flip a visions (which would be awesome, because she can indeed cast vision!) but even with visions as a 4-of, she will most likely flip a much less impact card.
If you really want to go narset, you need to fill your deck with pro-active, high impact cards, as you basically want to get 6-mana+ worth of pro-active value in expectation, simply to justify the mana/tempo investment you made in her. For that reason, I dont think she fits in control (though she might fit in a jeskai "spells-matter" midrange deck)
Narset, enlightened master can be killed by Liliana of the veil -2, any 4-mana wrath, she can be profitably blocked by many of Abzan's bigger creatures, like Rhino (though that means she attacked, and therefor presumably cast some non-creature spells, giving you some value). It's true that not many things kill Narset, but it is also true she costs 6, and the popular decks have ways to kill her.
However, the biggest issue I have with her is that she is a card you cannot cast until turn 6. Drawing such a card in the early game is a liability, and can only be justified if she provides a huge swing in your favor. Elspeth, sun's champion, fits that bill. Narset? she does little the turn she etbs, and the here is still the chance of attacking just to flip a mana leak, a couple of lands, and a lighting bolt Sure, she could flip a visions (which would be awesome, because she can indeed cast vision!) but even with visions as a 4-of, she will most likely flip a much less impact card.
If you really want to go narset, you need to fill your deck with pro-active, high impact cards, as you basically want to get 6-mana+ worth of pro-active value in expectation, simply to justify the mana/tempo investment you made in her. For that reason, I dont think she fits in control (though she might fit in a jeskai "spells-matter" midrange deck)
Umm... If they block Narset with a Siege Rhino, all it takes is a Lightning Bolt to make that block bad. It's even worse if you get to play the Bolt for free off the trigger (because who blindly attacks into a good block for no reason?). Obviously if there's a Liliana of the Veil on the board you wouldn't want to play Narset (usually), but I would argue you have bigger issues to deal with if they have an active Liliana.
Outside of board sweepers, there aren't many ways any of the top decks can get her off the board. They can block her for days but even that can be limited.
How is a 3/2 first strike, hexproof doing nothing? It makes attacking you on the ground awkward and if they do so anyway, there's information in that. Narset actually makes the Bolt-Snap-Bolt plan a big deal. If she flips over low-impact cards, you generally couldn't care less at that point in the game. Let's not forget, you also get to cast planeswalkers for free off the ability. It's really awesome. The problem is getting there.
Umm... If they block Narset with a Siege Rhino, all it takes is a Lightning Bolt to make that block bad.
I was just listing things that kill it out of the top of my head. And if you attack into a rhino, and use the bolt to kill the rhino, you just 2-for-1ed yourself, spending two cards to remove one of theirs (plus, you spent 7 mana to do that, and they only spent 4) so I'm not so sure you should be happy with that exchange. EDIT: forgot about the first strike on narset, so it would not be a trade. My bad! But the concept still stands I think: she can be blocked, and if the threat of a block prevents her from attacking, then it is almost as if they removed her, because the big appeal is the attacking trigger, nto the body.
. It's even worse if you get to play the Bolt for free off the trigger (because who blindly attacks into a good block for no reason?).
Another reason Narset is iffy... you just spent 6 mana for a 3/2 hexproof that just sits there because it can't attack into the rhino. You might claim "I'm holding the rhino at bay", but you spent 6 mana to their 4... If I'm to spend 6 mana to answer their 4 mana play, I'd much rather play Elspeth, minus her, and still have a walker around after all is said and done.
Outside of board sweepers, there aren't many ways any of the top decks can get her off the board. They can block her for days but even that can be limited.
yes, I said that there were not many answers, but the answers do exist. And the fact that many times you've got to attack into a block (like the rhino case) means you don't even get to trigger her reliably.
How is a 3/2 first strike, hexproof doing nothing? It makes attacking you on the ground awkward and if they do so anyway, there's information in that.
It's doing nothing for the purpose of a control deck that hit 6 mana. If you are a control deck, playing modern, and just tapped 6 mana on your turn, I'd expect you get a bigger immediate payoff than a 3/2 hexproof first strike. I think that at 6 mana sorcery speed you'd find better immediate plays. Again, the bar I'm using is "conditionally on tapping 6 mana on my turn, does a control deck really want this instead of Elpseth?" In this case, Elpseth also gums up the ground the way you suggest, while getting you closer ot winning via ultimate; Narset on defense just sits there without building an incremental advantage.
Bolt-Snap-Bolt plan a big deal. If she flips over low-impact cards, you generally couldn't care less at that point in the game. Let's not forget, you also get to cast planeswalkers for free off the ability.
So, you basically payed 6 mana in your turn in a control deck, and your "good" payoff is "bolt-snap-bolt"? I'd rather keep mana open for reactive spells,end of turn cast revelation for X=3, and pull off that same play, but I'm three cards up, +3 life, and did not need to tap out (ps: this is just an example of an alternative 6 mana play, there might be others). Regarding walkers, not many control deck play them. As I said, I'm not saying she is universally bad. I'm just saying that in a control deck she doesn't fit, but that doesn't mean that in other archetypes she could be great. I think that it's always important to ask "if I did not do this with my mana, what could I be doing?" And in a control deck (and by control I mean a reactive deck that wins via some sort of inevitability), there are better 6-mana plays than Narset.
Narset has first strike, she won't trade with the rhino.
Your thoughts on hooglands list are pretty similar to mine. I think 2 cryptics is enough though. Also don't know if I want all 4 planeswalkers.
Cliques or more counterspells might be better.
Narset has first strike, she won't trade with the rhino.
Your thoughts on hooglands list are pretty similar to mine. I think 2 cryptics is enough though. Also don't know if I want all 4 planeswalkers.
Cliques or more counterspells might be better.
I mostly agree with you but I think that an argument can be made for playing 1 cryptic too, especially as playing some number of nahiri helps dig to find it, besides seeing multiples is so painful if we aren't miles ahead. Realistically we arent relying on the card advantage of cryptic very much with 3+ planeswalkers and 3-4 AV, it's mostly about utility.
I do think there is a really big difference between 1 cryptic and 0 though and I'm pretty sure that we really need to play the atleast first one, so many games it completely swings a game in our favor or is our only path to victory.
Having said that I would start at 2 and work form there.
3 nahiri + 1 emrakul seems close to ideal, below 3 I think that drawing emrakul without an active nahiri will be a real cost, and 4 just seems like too much.
In my testing so far, we're usually favoured against Grixis. Their grindy cards sure are good, but our removal is infinitely better, and our late game is also stronger. Grixis is comparable to Jund in the sense that they're both midrangey and have a similar plan (though Jund is more creature based). Their AVs sure are strong, but they have to ask us to have them, not the other way around. Ours usually resolve unless they want to waste cards.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
However if they pack their own permission or have more discard, then that allows them to punch a hole in your hand and take a hold of the game putting you on the back foot.
Also if the grixis build is heavily reliant on the GY (Jace, Anglers, Tasigurs, etc); then biting the bullet and dropping a Rest in Peace gives you a big advantage. Although Grixis has been moving away from the Thought Scour + Tasigur + Angler builds in favor of jamming some number of AV and Serum Visions (yes they run both).
Running the full 4 Colonnades are a pretty big boon in control mirrors as well.
All in all I put the largest stock in player skill. The advantages to be gained from decks alone would amount to 45-55 tops in either direction, which leaves it to pilots to determine the outcome.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Thanks for the comments. I have actually used Logic Knot on and off. I'm contending it's a playable, as opposed to fantastic. Mana Leak is just typically better.Having to get UU on T2 to play a 2 mana force spike is pretty weak. My contention that early game Mana Leak is easier to cast and doesn't have to worry about how many cards are in the yard. I'd love for this card to be good, I don't dislike it. But it isn't fantastic in any measurable way. There is an argument to be made that Dissolve is stronger and again that card isn't a strong playable. One more colorless for hard counter plus scry.
GAMES:
Merfolks (2-0)
It was a weird deck considering he played a splash of red to run lightning Bolt and jori en (Who incredibly gave him a lot of card advantage) the first match i countered all his fishes and the few ones he got to play I dealt with them with bolts and path to exile, I landed Keranos and he got me the game. The second one he went full fishes on me but a supreme verdict on the topdeck gave me the game. I finished him with bolts and snappys.
Naya burn (2-0)
This is the variation that runs wild nacatl. Not much to say, the first game he got mana flooded and the second mana screwed, when I got under 10 life I played a timely reinforcements that helped a lot and finished the game with elspeth.
Naya Burn (2-1)
Same deck, different player. Seems like people here in Argentina playing burn are big fans of the cat. The first game he started so fast that I could barely anything, he finished me by turn 3. The second one an opening-hand white line gave me the game, bc him not having any creatures. The third one was t2 spellskite, t3 timely reinforcements and t5 snap timely. He ran out of fuel and I finished him with burn.
Grixis Control (1-2)
Another weird deck, he ran a lot of manlands (full playset of fumarole). He won me first game with a lot of hand disruption and beating me with his lands and a snap. Second one I managed to land a leyline and answer all his threats and won easily. The third one he played t1 AV and t2 AV AV. I had no chance with all the hand disruption and card advantage.
Overall it was a great night and although I did some missplays I managed to get a great result (the luck with the topdeck also helped).I was testing big Elspeth on main but just got to play her once. I definetely need to get 4 AV and replace the Think Twice.
METAGAME: 9 players
2 nacatl burn
1 infect
1 merfolks
1 grixis control
1 affinity
1 scapeshift
1 eldrazi and taxes
1 weird brew.
I'm currently on my cellphone to write the list but when I get home I'll post it.
Nice results! Do get those AV as soon as possible!
They perform a similar role, and each has their benefits however I think it is sub-optimal to run more than 1 Logic Knot in any list.
The prohibitive mana cost (minor, but a non-zero factor) along with its diminishing returns means casting multiples of the spell gets worse and worse. Lists without dedicated cantrips (Serum Visions, Thought Scour, Gitaxian Probe, etc) will have an even harder time. Not to mention the real cost of thinning out your GY making your Snapcasters worse. For instance if you really need to force spike them for 2 in the early game might mean delving a bolt, whereas leak would have just gotten the job done.
On average I have 3-4 cards in my GY by turn 4, meaning that Logic Knot is looking to outpace Mana Leak by turn 5+.
I think the card its good enough to be competitive, especially since we have few ways to capitalize on our GY outside of Snaps. In the past we had flashback spells (Think Twice) or other delve spells (TC or DTT), but now...
I personally run a 3 Remand 1 Mana Leak 1 Izzet Charm split, but that is because of how my list is tailored (I run Thing in the Ice).
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)i don't think it should be anymore than a 2-of.... but on average you will have at least 1 card in the yard and most likely two if you run serum...
on the mana castability let me say that is a very infrequent occurrence if you are using anything close to a standard jeskai manabase...
you would need exactly sacred foundry/utility land with colonnade/shock AND no fetches PLUS logic knot in your hand.... the former is about 5% and my math isn't precise enough to calculate the latter but i'm estimating it to be 1%... that's one out of every 100 games... and that's not taking into account you might want to do something else on that turn.. which you probably can't do if you carry mana leak...
the more frequent occurrence is that you have a double shock/colonnade hand with nothing in the yard... but again it's not that common...
altogether i would say the two are less than 5% and probably in the 2% range....
you then weight that on the times you get to turn 5+ where logic knot is clearly superior... and i think it's pretty clear that it definitely should take spots away from leak...
Of course. This is closer to a midrange build, but the lines of control and midrange have been blurred so much in this format that the distinction is almost nonexistent.
Flash creatures give you an avenue to hold up mana to make the choice of answering what your opponent is doing or going on the offensive, not to mention the benefit of being able to ambush block or get value (Wall + Resto, Clique, etc).
Running between 10-15 creatures means you have less answers, but you balance this with being able to turn the corner faster (thus cutting their draws).
Either more midrange or control hasn't proven definitively better or worse, and seems more of a preference/metagame choice.
I personally like to end the game a little bit quicker because modern has way too many avenues of attack for me to feel safe. It feels like every deck has ways to come back, be it because you draw poorly or your answers don't line up correctly. For instance Infect can build a hand of protection/pump spells to kill you even in the lategame with an Inkmoth Nexus or burn can topdeck the last points of damage to punk you out.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Its half as fast as geist, but the disruption is nice vs tron/scapeshift/what have you.
Scapeshift also sometimes plays creatures (surrak, huntmaster, obstinate baloth, thragtusk, etc) which all wall geist pretty well, if we don't have removal.
To that end, I would likely not cut the clique you've got.
That being said, keranos could become another (faster) wincon potentially.
Personally, timely rienforcements is only alright, so its a fine cut.
You also have 2 verdicts main (as well as a ***** ton of removal, because its jeskai), you might not need one sideboarded.
Main deck looks like a solid stock control list.
Here are my sideboard thoughts on a wide open field with a large attendance:
-Need at least 2 slots dedicated to burn. Burn variants are a super popular tier 1 strategy, and you have 5+ cards in the main that sideboard out.
-Cut the Supreme Verdict for a Wrath of God. Green decks are packing Thrun, the Last Troll.
-Anger of the Gods seems well positioned right now. Little Zoo decks, Collected Company, etc.
-Need some form of GY hate. Way to many strategies rely on this axis. Abzan Coco, Grishoalbrand, Dredgevine, Living End, etc.
-A card worth considering is Aven Mindcensor. It does work against Scapeshift, Chord of Calling, and Tron; while giving you a form of pressure.
Pretty much you are gonna have to choose which battles to fight with your sideboard, since just hedging against everything is impossible. I know the European metagame differs from the North American scene slightly. This is probably the biggest problem with the controlling versions of the deck, it doesn't fair well in large tournaments.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Nice results! On the matter of sideboarding Geist; I personally really dislike it. I've tried it a ton of times in several differen UW(x) builds but it takes up a ton of space and isn't actually all that good. First of all Geist's hexproof basically doesn't matter game 2 as your opponent should have sided out spot removal, and many decks you'd want to race run sweepers. Secondly 3 mana is just really awkward to cast against many combo decks, being tapped out on their turn 4 (generally modern's combo turn) if you're on the draw. Finally it just takes up too much space in the sideboard, requiring you to devote at least 2, probably 3 slots to it to reliably draw it fast enough.
I've had a lot of success with mainboard geists though with this list:
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Electrolyze
1 Logic Knot
2 Remand
3 Spell Snare
3 Cryptic Command
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep
2 Crumble to Dust
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Stony Silence
1 Lightning Helix
1 Wear // Tear
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Celestial Purge
1 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Anger of the Gods
The gameplan is basically to blank all your opponent's removal, control until AV resolves, then put down Geist and kill everything that tries to block. I run Shinka over Eiganjo as I needed more red sources and first strike geist + bolt kills pretty much everything in the format. Jace AoT is there over Ajani as a concession to Lingering Souls
The Geist plan you describe makes me think of a pure control deck with maybe 1-2 copies of Narset, Enlightened Master to win. What that sees play kills her in game 1? Also, I'm pretty sure she can cast Ancestral Vision for free similar to Goblin Dark-Dwellers. She even has first strike out of the box.
Too crazy?
UBRGrixis Kiki Control
BGUSultai Shadow
GWRBushwhacker Zoo
EDH:
BGU Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose
GWU Roon of the Hidden Realm
However, the biggest issue I have with her is that she is a card you cannot cast until turn 6. Drawing such a card in the early game is a liability, and can only be justified if she provides a huge swing in your favor. Elspeth, sun's champion, fits that bill. Narset? she does little the turn she ETB, and the here is still the chance of attacking just to flip a mana leak, a couple of lands, and a lighting bolt Sure, she could flip a visions (which would be awesome, because she can indeed cast vision!) but even with visions as a 4-of, she will most likely flip a much less impact card.
If you really want to go narset, you need to fill your deck with pro-active, high impact cards, as you basically want to get 6-mana+ worth of pro-active value in expectation, simply to justify the mana/tempo investment you made in her. For that reason, I dont think she fits in control (though she might fit in a jeskai "spells-matter" midrange deck)
Umm... If they block Narset with a Siege Rhino, all it takes is a Lightning Bolt to make that block bad. It's even worse if you get to play the Bolt for free off the trigger (because who blindly attacks into a good block for no reason?). Obviously if there's a Liliana of the Veil on the board you wouldn't want to play Narset (usually), but I would argue you have bigger issues to deal with if they have an active Liliana.
Outside of board sweepers, there aren't many ways any of the top decks can get her off the board. They can block her for days but even that can be limited.
How is a 3/2 first strike, hexproof doing nothing? It makes attacking you on the ground awkward and if they do so anyway, there's information in that. Narset actually makes the Bolt-Snap-Bolt plan a big deal. If she flips over low-impact cards, you generally couldn't care less at that point in the game. Let's not forget, you also get to cast planeswalkers for free off the ability. It's really awesome. The problem is getting there.
I was just listing things that kill it out of the top of my head. And if you attack into a rhino, and use the bolt to kill the rhino, you just 2-for-1ed yourself, spending two cards to remove one of theirs (plus, you spent 7 mana to do that, and they only spent 4) so I'm not so sure you should be happy with that exchange. EDIT: forgot about the first strike on narset, so it would not be a trade. My bad! But the concept still stands I think: she can be blocked, and if the threat of a block prevents her from attacking, then it is almost as if they removed her, because the big appeal is the attacking trigger, nto the body.
Another reason Narset is iffy... you just spent 6 mana for a 3/2 hexproof that just sits there because it can't attack into the rhino. You might claim "I'm holding the rhino at bay", but you spent 6 mana to their 4... If I'm to spend 6 mana to answer their 4 mana play, I'd much rather play Elspeth, minus her, and still have a walker around after all is said and done.
yes, I said that there were not many answers, but the answers do exist. And the fact that many times you've got to attack into a block (like the rhino case) means you don't even get to trigger her reliably.
It's doing nothing for the purpose of a control deck that hit 6 mana. If you are a control deck, playing modern, and just tapped 6 mana on your turn, I'd expect you get a bigger immediate payoff than a 3/2 hexproof first strike. I think that at 6 mana sorcery speed you'd find better immediate plays. Again, the bar I'm using is "conditionally on tapping 6 mana on my turn, does a control deck really want this instead of Elpseth?" In this case, Elpseth also gums up the ground the way you suggest, while getting you closer ot winning via ultimate; Narset on defense just sits there without building an incremental advantage.
So, you basically payed 6 mana in your turn in a control deck, and your "good" payoff is "bolt-snap-bolt"? I'd rather keep mana open for reactive spells,end of turn cast revelation for X=3, and pull off that same play, but I'm three cards up, +3 life, and did not need to tap out (ps: this is just an example of an alternative 6 mana play, there might be others). Regarding walkers, not many control deck play them. As I said, I'm not saying she is universally bad. I'm just saying that in a control deck she doesn't fit, but that doesn't mean that in other archetypes she could be great. I think that it's always important to ask "if I did not do this with my mana, what could I be doing?" And in a control deck (and by control I mean a reactive deck that wins via some sort of inevitability), there are better 6-mana plays than Narset.
Your thoughts on hooglands list are pretty similar to mine. I think 2 cryptics is enough though. Also don't know if I want all 4 planeswalkers.
Cliques or more counterspells might be better.
I mostly agree with you but I think that an argument can be made for playing 1 cryptic too, especially as playing some number of nahiri helps dig to find it, besides seeing multiples is so painful if we aren't miles ahead. Realistically we arent relying on the card advantage of cryptic very much with 3+ planeswalkers and 3-4 AV, it's mostly about utility.
I do think there is a really big difference between 1 cryptic and 0 though and I'm pretty sure that we really need to play the atleast first one, so many games it completely swings a game in our favor or is our only path to victory.
Having said that I would start at 2 and work form there.
3 nahiri + 1 emrakul seems close to ideal, below 3 I think that drawing emrakul without an active nahiri will be a real cost, and 4 just seems like too much.