if you're running any number of remand/manaleaks and a playset of thing's .. then that's about 8 really bad top decks ... and for a control shell that's really bad if you're lategame has as many duds like that...
imo if you really want to play titi you can't realistically play more than 2 if any at all.. and you probably would need some amount of serum visions with it to smooth out your later draws...
sigh...playtest it maybe before dismissing strategies alright? You aren't trying to win by flipping him...you play him, block, control the game as you would anyway, and if he does flip, great.. you got extra value from your tempo lightning rod..
I've been playing this deck for a long time so you can stop telling me to **** off to another thread. In fact if you think burn to the face is a solution to flipping faster then I've probably played it longer than you.
Thing is playable in modern, its best place as I see it is in UWr. However the card also needs both assistance in getting activated faster and more creatures next to it to dampen its removal weakness. Simply putting it in the UWr shell that worked 3 years ago which people are still clamping on to however does not work.
I agree with, the list does need tweaking, but it works with an amount of counterspells in list, they aren't simply dead draws in a jeskai control deck as you are implying. In fact, I have no idea why you're being so confrontational with me considering the fact that we're very close to being in agreement with the card.
And as far as tell you to **** off, I never said ANYTHING of the sort, I simply pointed out that trying to force a reactive strategy into a proactive strategy isn't viable, and that you'd be better off playing another type of deck if that's what you feel you need to win. Both your your salt and the "my deck is bigger than yours" attitude you're tossing my way over some assumption that you've been playing longer than I have are both overreactions. Keep it on the cards, this is a conversation not a pissing contest.
if you're running any number of remand/manaleaks and a playset of thing's .. then that's about 8 really bad top decks ... and for a control shell that's really bad if you're lategame has as many duds like that...
imo if you really want to play titi you can't realistically play more than 2 if any at all.. and you probably would need some amount of serum visions with it to smooth out your later draws...
sigh...playtest it maybe before dismissing strategies alright? You aren't trying to win by flipping him...you play him, block, control the game as you would anyway, and if he does flip, great.. you got extra value from your tempo lightning rod..
well i have.. altho a few md games isn't what i would call a conclusive sample.. i just felt that i wasn't actually rooting to draw it and when i did it i felt disappointed.. i didn't really optimize the deck around him so you may be right...
but... from those few games and the math surrounding it... it just doesn't seem right to me... and if it doesn't flip reliably you have to ask yourself if it is really better than say a wall of omens... and most ppl don't play a wall to begin with...
But now one of the cards in your hand is a Remand, and your opponent, not being a complete idiot, realises that if titi flips you win the game. So your opponent just doesn't play anything for the last two turns and kills you. This is not a rare niche scenario and will happen if you build titi in a mostly reactive deck with a ton of counterspells.
Thats an easy one. You play lighning bolt, remand your own bolt, draw your card and bolt again.
I've been playing aggro, midrange and controlling decks for over 20 years. I know how the game works.
There are different ways to work this deck and titi, but I prefer to react to what my opponent does, try to be patient and slowly gain advantage where I can.
I agree with, the list does need tweaking, but it works with an amount of counterspells in list, they aren't simply dead draws in a jeskai control deck as you are implying
I'm sorry if I come as intrusive but I don't think he really say that, and actually I think you both are trying to argue the same thing...
I play tested the card for a while in this shell and it's far more common -than one would think- having a remand and a thing in the ice waiting to be flipped, personally I like remand a lot so I would prefer to play 1-2 copies of thing in the ice. A full playset is better in a delver-like shell in my opinion and of course everyone is entitled to their own preferences. Right now this is the list I'm playing
I'm planning to replace the Geists for 2 thing in the ice, a second spell snare and maybe a second vendilion clique. Something I can say for certain is that you need a lot of card draw for TiTi...
Both Avacyn and titi need more creatures in the deck to be worthwhile I'd say. They could potentially function very well together in the same deck actually. However, the 4x snap 2 walkers and maybe some restos build that people have been clinging on to doesn't work with them, and honestly hasn't worked for the last two years
This is what I'm currently testing and it has been pretty succesful. Only Remands for permission, and Serum Visions to help titi flip. The wringing point is still there; with 22 spells titi can be tough to flip and I often have to waste a bolt to the face to let it happen or even let a PtE fizzle. I'm thinking about trying to cram in two Sleight of Hand to make flipping easier, or maybe an instant speed cantrip as flipping at the opponent's end step is insanely strong. Serum Visions is definitely a must and I sandbag them as long as possible in case I need to flip titi, and will often use snap aggressively on serum visions. Your opponent having a few turns time to deal with titi at their leisure can be an issue and cause tempo loss. On the other hand, being able to bounce your own creatures to both save them from removal and get all those etb effects back is amazing and makes titi feel a lot like Spellskite in that your opponent can't reliably kill anything until titi is dealt with.
Avacyn with some other blockers up has been insanely strong as your opponent can basically never attack into five open mana or risk getting blown out. Her flip effect is definitely a double-edged sword and will kill your own creatures or put titi in bolt range, but I've also snap-bolted my own snapcaster to win a game against merfolk. I think losing Vigilance can also be an issue but it hasn't come up yet. All in all he does what she has to do as a 5 mana spell in modern; if she resolves, you probably win the game on the spot.
It is difficult to test right now as there is no real metagame to play against and everyone on cockatrice is trying out their brews, but I do think that UWr will make it big post-rotation with all these neat new tricks.
In the past I've settled on many spells and recently played a list with Restoration Angel and P'n'K and less spells. With TiTI approaching rapidly I've again switched back to the spell heavy approach. That creature alone threatens to take over the game. A threat is what I've been lacking many times in the past. Wall of Omens is just lackluster. This is why I switched out Angel and Wall for Ojutai's Command and TiTI. Because of the two Ojutai's Command the only removal the deck cares about is Path to Exile. I'm very happy to get accelerated by my opponent. Especially if it causes them to spend mana and time to remove my wall.
To sort of artificially add to both the creature count and the spell count of a Thing control list you could try some amount of Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. He's a tempting removal sponge as he's often flipping the turn after you play him and when he does flip you get to flashback your spells. With that said, he's a bit slow and man the 2 drop spot is getting crowded. Probably not a 4 of, but a 2 have has been potent.
People are talking up archangel avacyn and it's hard to argue with her obvious combat wrecking power but 5 mana still feels like a lot. I will go ahead and try to throw her in and see how it goes in a more creature filled build. Looking at 3 things, 2 jace, 2 resto, 1 clique, 4 snapcaster, and 1 archangel for now. 24 lands and 4 serum visions, the rest typical jeskai spell base.
To sort of artificially add to both the creature count and the spell count of a Thing control list you could try some amount of Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. He's a tempting removal sponge as he's often flipping the turn after you play him and when he does flip you get to flashback your spells. With that said, he's a bit slow and man the 2 drop spot is getting crowded. Probably not a 4 of, but a 2 have has been potent.
People are talking up archangel avacyn and it's hard to argue with her obvious combat wrecking power but 5 mana still feels like a lot. I will go ahead and try to throw her in and see how it goes in a more creature filled build. Looking at 3 things, 2 jace, 2 resto, 1 clique, 4 snapcaster, and 1 archangel for now. 24 lands and 4 serum visions, the rest typical jeskai spell base.
TBH I think having an even split between Snaps and Jace will become the norm in the near future; especially with the synergy found from Ojutai's Command. Jace, like Dark Confidant can take over a game if unchecked while Snap is more of a one-and-done deal (with huge value). Flashing your instants back at sorcery speed isn't ideal, but hardly a deal breaker.
Ive been converting my Grixis deck back to Jeskai and I think my creature breakdown will look something like: 3 Snapcaster Mage, 3 Jace, 3 Thing in the Ice, 2 Resto Angel, 2 Vendillion Clique. All can work around Thing's trigger, and Snap/Jace/Clique are all of type Wizard meaning Cavern could be a nice utility land depending on the meta.
I'm not sold on Avacyn just yet. I can't think of many situations where you are going into your 6th turn, have a creature on board to save to get value, etc. If you are at that point then its clear you are probably in a more grindy matchup, and any 5 mana bomb would pretty much do the same thing. I'm still a fan of Thundermaw Hellkite (Ive been traumatized by Lingering Souls).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
To sort of artificially add to both the creature count and the spell count of a Thing control list you could try some amount of Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. He's a tempting removal sponge as he's often flipping the turn after you play him and when he does flip you get to flashback your spells. With that said, he's a bit slow and man the 2 drop spot is getting crowded. Probably not a 4 of, but a 2 have has been potent.
People are talking up archangel avacyn and it's hard to argue with her obvious combat wrecking power but 5 mana still feels like a lot. I will go ahead and try to throw her in and see how it goes in a more creature filled build. Looking at 3 things, 2 jace, 2 resto, 1 clique, 4 snapcaster, and 1 archangel for now. 24 lands and 4 serum visions, the rest typical jeskai spell base.
Or just run Jace VP without the other nonsense. You can get away with up to 3 mainboard. Very good on the play.
Avacyn is very good because of flash. Flash is what makes Resto fantastic, and Avacyn could be very much the same. Do not underestimate instant speed.
Running a mixture of snaps, titi and flipjace backed up with Ojutai's Command sounds incredibly powerful. All three creatures synergise together very well.
I do however think that Snapcaster should always be a 4-of in the deck, and Ojutai's and Cryptic Command filling the same slot is rather awkward. Finding the right mixture between Ojutai's value and Cryptic's versatility is tough and I don't think you should run more than 5 of them together. It also makes running mainboard sweepers rough but titi fixes that partially
Running a mixture of snaps, titi and flipjace backed up with Ojutai's Command sounds incredibly powerful. All three creatures synergise together very well.
I do however think that Snapcaster should always be a 4-of in the deck, and Ojutai's and Cryptic Command filling the same slot is rather awkward. Finding the right mixture between Ojutai's value and Cryptic's versatility is tough and I don't think you should run more than 5 of them together. It also makes running mainboard sweepers rough but titi fixes that partially
Hey I'm right there with you; Ive been running 4 Snaps in one deck or another since the card was printed. However adding Jace AND Titi to the team means the creature slots fill up quickly if you want to keep a certain spell count.
I completely agree about needing to find the right mixture of Ojutai's Command and Cryptics. I am probably going to start on a 2-2 split between the two, but it is probably a preference call and how much emphasis you are putting on Jace and or Titi since getting back a Snap isn't as much value.
I am also going to maybe run 1 or no sweepers in the main. Sweepers are the rage right now because Eldrazi, but post ban I think the meta will be more amicable to the standard removal suite of bolts + paths + w/e mixture of helix/electrolyze/etc.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Yeah all these cool new spoilers make me really excited to brew UWr again but without knowing the new meta it's just not really getting anywhere concise lol
Another awkward part between wanting both Ojutai and Cryptic is that Snap, titi and jace all benefit from playing many cheap spells, but if you don't run Ojutai's Command you're better off just running Grixis
Thats where I am stuck at atm. I have no clue where I could fit in 2-4 of these things in my list. We also have the option now of a Jeskai sword list (Not sure how well that would work because we dont have Tezz). None the less I feel the next few weeks will be big for control in modern. Also if we did run the Visions how many would we want? We cant flash it back with jace or snapcaster so it a one and done deal and like ax92 said it is a very medium top deck
sigh...playtest it maybe before dismissing strategies alright? You aren't trying to win by flipping him...you play him, block, control the game as you would anyway, and if he does flip, great.. you got extra value from your tempo lightning rod..
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
I agree with, the list does need tweaking, but it works with an amount of counterspells in list, they aren't simply dead draws in a jeskai control deck as you are implying. In fact, I have no idea why you're being so confrontational with me considering the fact that we're very close to being in agreement with the card.
And as far as tell you to **** off, I never said ANYTHING of the sort, I simply pointed out that trying to force a reactive strategy into a proactive strategy isn't viable, and that you'd be better off playing another type of deck if that's what you feel you need to win. Both your your salt and the "my deck is bigger than yours" attitude you're tossing my way over some assumption that you've been playing longer than I have are both overreactions. Keep it on the cards, this is a conversation not a pissing contest.
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
well i have.. altho a few md games isn't what i would call a conclusive sample.. i just felt that i wasn't actually rooting to draw it and when i did it i felt disappointed.. i didn't really optimize the deck around him so you may be right...
but... from those few games and the math surrounding it... it just doesn't seem right to me... and if it doesn't flip reliably you have to ask yourself if it is really better than say a wall of omens... and most ppl don't play a wall to begin with...
Thats an easy one. You play lighning bolt, remand your own bolt, draw your card and bolt again.
I've been playing aggro, midrange and controlling decks for over 20 years. I know how the game works.
There are different ways to work this deck and titi, but I prefer to react to what my opponent does, try to be patient and slowly gain advantage where I can.
I'm sorry if I come as intrusive but I don't think he really say that, and actually I think you both are trying to argue the same thing...
I play tested the card for a while in this shell and it's far more common -than one would think- having a remand and a thing in the ice waiting to be flipped, personally I like remand a lot so I would prefer to play 1-2 copies of thing in the ice. A full playset is better in a delver-like shell in my opinion and of course everyone is entitled to their own preferences. Right now this is the list I'm playing
3x Celestial Colonnade
4x Flooded Strand
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Hallowed Fountain
4x Island
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Steam Vents
1x Sulfur Falls
4x Wooded Foothills
Planeswalker (1)
1x Ajani Vengeant
3x Cryptic Command
2x Electrolyze
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Lightning Helix
4x Mana Leak
3x Path to Exile
4x Remand
1x Spell Snare
Creature (11)
4x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Restoration Angel
4x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Crumble to Dust
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Jace, Architect of Thought
1x Keranos, God of Storms
1x Kozilek's Return
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Path to Exile
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Spellskite
1x Stony Silence
1x Wear // Tear
I'm planning to replace the Geists for 2 thing in the ice, a second spell snare and maybe a second vendilion clique. Something I can say for certain is that you need a lot of card draw for TiTi...
3 Thing in the Ice
3 Restoration Angel
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Archangel Avacyn
4 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
4 Remand
3 Electrolyze
3 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Clifftop Retreat
This is what I'm currently testing and it has been pretty succesful. Only Remands for permission, and Serum Visions to help titi flip. The wringing point is still there; with 22 spells titi can be tough to flip and I often have to waste a bolt to the face to let it happen or even let a PtE fizzle. I'm thinking about trying to cram in two Sleight of Hand to make flipping easier, or maybe an instant speed cantrip as flipping at the opponent's end step is insanely strong. Serum Visions is definitely a must and I sandbag them as long as possible in case I need to flip titi, and will often use snap aggressively on serum visions. Your opponent having a few turns time to deal with titi at their leisure can be an issue and cause tempo loss. On the other hand, being able to bounce your own creatures to both save them from removal and get all those etb effects back is amazing and makes titi feel a lot like Spellskite in that your opponent can't reliably kill anything until titi is dealt with.
Avacyn with some other blockers up has been insanely strong as your opponent can basically never attack into five open mana or risk getting blown out. Her flip effect is definitely a double-edged sword and will kill your own creatures or put titi in bolt range, but I've also snap-bolted my own snapcaster to win a game against merfolk. I think losing Vigilance can also be an issue but it hasn't come up yet. All in all he does what she has to do as a 5 mana spell in modern; if she resolves, you probably win the game on the spot.
It is difficult to test right now as there is no real metagame to play against and everyone on cockatrice is trying out their brews, but I do think that UWr will make it big post-rotation with all these neat new tricks.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/MTGModernUWx/
In the past I've settled on many spells and recently played a list with Restoration Angel and P'n'K and less spells. With TiTI approaching rapidly I've again switched back to the spell heavy approach. That creature alone threatens to take over the game. A threat is what I've been lacking many times in the past. Wall of Omens is just lackluster. This is why I switched out Angel and Wall for Ojutai's Command and TiTI. Because of the two Ojutai's Command the only removal the deck cares about is Path to Exile. I'm very happy to get accelerated by my opponent. Especially if it causes them to spend mana and time to remove my wall.
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Spell Snare
2 Lightning Helix
2 Mana Leak
1 Logic Knot
2 Electrolyze
3 Cryptic Command
2 Ojutai's Command
1 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Supreme Verdict
Creatures
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Thing in the Ice
1 Gideon Jura
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Lands
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Plains
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Mountain
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Dispel
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Counterflux
2 Negate
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Wear // Tear
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Celestial Purge
1 Keranos, God of Storms
People are talking up archangel avacyn and it's hard to argue with her obvious combat wrecking power but 5 mana still feels like a lot. I will go ahead and try to throw her in and see how it goes in a more creature filled build. Looking at 3 things, 2 jace, 2 resto, 1 clique, 4 snapcaster, and 1 archangel for now. 24 lands and 4 serum visions, the rest typical jeskai spell base.
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
TBH I think having an even split between Snaps and Jace will become the norm in the near future; especially with the synergy found from Ojutai's Command. Jace, like Dark Confidant can take over a game if unchecked while Snap is more of a one-and-done deal (with huge value). Flashing your instants back at sorcery speed isn't ideal, but hardly a deal breaker.
Ive been converting my Grixis deck back to Jeskai and I think my creature breakdown will look something like: 3 Snapcaster Mage, 3 Jace, 3 Thing in the Ice, 2 Resto Angel, 2 Vendillion Clique. All can work around Thing's trigger, and Snap/Jace/Clique are all of type Wizard meaning Cavern could be a nice utility land depending on the meta.
I'm not sold on Avacyn just yet. I can't think of many situations where you are going into your 6th turn, have a creature on board to save to get value, etc. If you are at that point then its clear you are probably in a more grindy matchup, and any 5 mana bomb would pretty much do the same thing. I'm still a fan of Thundermaw Hellkite (Ive been traumatized by Lingering Souls).
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Or just run Jace VP without the other nonsense. You can get away with up to 3 mainboard. Very good on the play.
Avacyn is very good because of flash. Flash is what makes Resto fantastic, and Avacyn could be very much the same. Do not underestimate instant speed.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
I do however think that Snapcaster should always be a 4-of in the deck, and Ojutai's and Cryptic Command filling the same slot is rather awkward. Finding the right mixture between Ojutai's value and Cryptic's versatility is tough and I don't think you should run more than 5 of them together. It also makes running mainboard sweepers rough but titi fixes that partially
Hey I'm right there with you; Ive been running 4 Snaps in one deck or another since the card was printed. However adding Jace AND Titi to the team means the creature slots fill up quickly if you want to keep a certain spell count.
I completely agree about needing to find the right mixture of Ojutai's Command and Cryptics. I am probably going to start on a 2-2 split between the two, but it is probably a preference call and how much emphasis you are putting on Jace and or Titi since getting back a Snap isn't as much value.
I am also going to maybe run 1 or no sweepers in the main. Sweepers are the rage right now because Eldrazi, but post ban I think the meta will be more amicable to the standard removal suite of bolts + paths + w/e mixture of helix/electrolyze/etc.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Another awkward part between wanting both Ojutai and Cryptic is that Snap, titi and jace all benefit from playing many cheap spells, but if you don't run Ojutai's Command you're better off just running Grixis
AV unban is a huge deal for every flavour of modern control
1 Vendillion Clique
3 Restoration Angel
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Ajani Vengeant
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Remand
2 Mana Leak
3 Cryptic Command
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
2 Electrolyze
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Arid MEsa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Celestial Colonnade
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Island
So the question is, how many AV's? What is taken out? My thoughts are: -1 Keranos, -1 Elspeth +2 Visions? I am not sure we want more than 2...
And another question is, do we want thopter combo?
"If it was easy, everyone would do it."
I am putting in 4. Dropped Rev. Running Snap x 4 and then just Keranos and a Clique.
With AV we can curve out very nicely and Remand becomes quite a bit better so I will be running at least 2.
I don't want Thopter Combo for this, maybe Esper. I would rather win off of delaying until I drop a Keranos or beatdown with Colonnade.