How often do you guys see Surgical come out of opponents' sideboards? My buddy brought it in against me earlier, he's on Junk. Turn 1 IoK away a Shadow and Surgical before I can even do anything. At that point there's zero chance I win that game.
Then your opponent has spent 2 cards in his hand to take out 1 card in your hand (provided you only had one DS in hand). That's card disadvantage for him. So if you can get enough Tarmogoyfs, Lingering Souls, Grim Flayers, LotV etc. in play from that point, you might have a good chance to win. If you fear Surgical after side, it can be smart to have more threats and Traverse-targets in the sideboard, so you increase the chance opponent is just wasting cards with his surgicals while you keep finding new threats. Examples (depending on matchup): Scavenging Ooze, Renegade Rallier, Souls, Fulminator Mage. It can also be a good plan to have 1-2 Grim Flayers main if you're concerned about this.
How often do you guys see Surgical come out of opponents' sideboards? My buddy brought it in against me earlier, he's on Junk. Turn 1 IoK away a Shadow and Surgical before I can even do anything. At that point there's zero chance I win that game. I've had to surgical my own Shadows in response before, obviously only exiling the one, but that's certainly not how it's supposed to play out.
Just that small interaction made me think about sleeving up the Grixis version.
Why you have zero chance after this? If I see my opponent Surgicaling my DS he just discarded, I would thank him for 2-for-1ing himself. I've said it before, if people bring in Surgicals against you, you can only thank them. Especially Junk vs. DSJ is such an attrition based matchup, I would never side in Surgicals here if I were the Junk player. Yeah, sometimes they get to extract your DS early on, but your still have Goyfs and Street Wraiths you can cast. Don't underestimate Wraiths here. They are a respectable threat against them. And most of the time, if they board in Surgicals against you, they will topdeck it later in the game where it is incredibly bad rather than have it in the right situation. ANd if they extract a nonsense card at this point because what else to do with it, then you can thank them again for thinning out your deck.
mashup of grixis and jund 5-0ing yesterday. this seems like it'd struggle in grindy matchups, nor does it help vs. eldrazi/tron/mirror. still interesting though if we are expecting combo-centric decks in the meta?
_LLUKS_ (5-0)
LISTA DEL MAZZO STATISTICHE MANO DI ESEMPIO
ORDINA PER
Planeswalker (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil
Creatura (12)
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
4 Tarmogoyf
Stregoneria (12)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
Istantaneo (10)
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Temur Battle Rage
Artefatto (4)
4 Mishra's Bauble
Terra (18)
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
Tribale (2)
2 Tarfire
60 Carte
Sideboard (15)
2 Ancient Grudge 2 Anger of the Gods 2 Collective Brutality 2 Liliana, the Last Hope 1 Maelstrom Pulse 2 Nihil Spellbomb 3 Stubborn Denial 1 Surgical Extraction
Thats the list Gerry Thomson tested in his video series. I personally think its worse than the white splash, due to its weakness in attrition/aggro based matchups, but you can run it if you are in a heavy Big Mana/Combo dominant meta.
When you guys are struggling to get delirium online, have you guys every played a Death's Shadow (DS) when your life is above 12 just to get a creature in the graveyard?
I have ran into a few situations where I have had a transverse, a few fetchlands (which I kept flooding on), and a DS in hand at 15 life. The graveyard had 3 types, artifact, sorcery, and land. Do you hold on a turn and focus on playing a 1/1 DS next turn, or play the DS automatically sending it to the graveyard to get delirium, and grab a Tarmogoyf?
Tough call. I could see doing it if I had more than 1 traverse in hand. I did cast it to get it in the yard against a tron player with early grove keeping me up in life so I could varolz it later.
How often do you guys see Surgical come out of opponents' sideboards? My buddy brought it in against me earlier, he's on Junk. Turn 1 IoK away a Shadow and Surgical before I can even do anything. At that point there's zero chance I win that game. I've had to surgical my own Shadows in response before, obviously only exiling the one, but that's certainly not how it's supposed to play out.
Just that small interaction made me think about sleeving up the Grixis version.
Why you have zero chance after this? If I see my opponent Surgicaling my DS he just discarded, I would thank him for 2-for-1ing himself. I've said it before, if people bring in Surgicals against you, you can only thank them. Especially Junk vs. DSJ is such an attrition based matchup, I would never side in Surgicals here if I were the Junk player. Yeah, sometimes they get to extract your DS early on, but your still have Goyfs and Street Wraiths you can cast. Don't underestimate Wraiths here. They are a respectable threat against them. And most of the time, if they board in Surgicals against you, they will topdeck it later in the game where it is incredibly bad rather than have it in the right situation. ANd if they extract a nonsense card at this point because what else to do with it, then you can thank them again for thinning out your deck.
That all makes sense now, but when half my threats are gone and the remaining half will just bump against his Goyfs or simply die to his 10+ Decay/Path/Push/Lili, it felt long over.
When you guys are struggling to get delirium online, have you guys every played a Death's Shadow (DS) when your life is above 12 just to get a creature in the graveyard?
I have ran into a few situations where I have had a transverse, a few fetchlands (which I kept flooding on), and a DS in hand at 15 life. The graveyard had 3 types, artifact, sorcery, and land. Do you hold on a turn and focus on playing a 1/1 DS next turn, or play the DS automatically sending it to the graveyard to get delirium, and grab a Tarmogoyf?
It depends on the matchup and how important it is to get a threat on the board. I am up against Abzan/another DS deck I would never do it, because here it depends on who has the most threats in the end. Against combo/big mana you could think about it.
How often do you guys see Surgical come out of opponents' sideboards? My buddy brought it in against me earlier, he's on Junk. Turn 1 IoK away a Shadow and Surgical before I can even do anything. At that point there's zero chance I win that game. I've had to surgical my own Shadows in response before, obviously only exiling the one, but that's certainly not how it's supposed to play out.
Just that small interaction made me think about sleeving up the Grixis version.
Why you have zero chance after this? If I see my opponent Surgicaling my DS he just discarded, I would thank him for 2-for-1ing himself. I've said it before, if people bring in Surgicals against you, you can only thank them. Especially Junk vs. DSJ is such an attrition based matchup, I would never side in Surgicals here if I were the Junk player. Yeah, sometimes they get to extract your DS early on, but your still have Goyfs and Street Wraiths you can cast. Don't underestimate Wraiths here. They are a respectable threat against them. And most of the time, if they board in Surgicals against you, they will topdeck it later in the game where it is incredibly bad rather than have it in the right situation. ANd if they extract a nonsense card at this point because what else to do with it, then you can thank them again for thinning out your deck.
That all makes sense now, but when half my threats are gone and the remaining half will just bump against his Goyfs or simply die to his 10+ Decay/Path/Push/Lili, it felt long over.
I understand that this is quite biasing, but you have to think about this in a more general way. Situations like this won't happen every time, and more often you will have the advantage when someone sides in surgical agaisnt you. So I wouldn't worry about it.
Grixis shadow is really into this plan of surgical and snap+surgical against us to try to take away death's shadow and tarmogoyf, so be sure to pack more threats against them after side.
I too have experienced this game plan from Grixis shadow. I've managed to play around it by Kommanding in response, and once Nihiling myself.. Although to be honest when it has resolved, I haven't been all that put out as traverse generally finds me the next threat.
As an aside, with decks that go wide being a weakness, as well as Dredge becoming popular again, is Jund charm not a decent sidebaord card? I haven't seen it run in any lists and I can't seem to understand why. I admit I'm on the newer side to shadow jund, so apologies if this has been discussed, but an extra grave hate card + instant speed pyro seem good to me. Only thing I can think of is that the colours are restrictive, but by my third land 99% of the time I have all three colours active. Thoughts?
Honestly if Grixis wastes a Snappy in order to flashback a surgical rather than a fatal push then I am happy. Does seem like a waste here. What I do like however, is siding surgicals against Grixis, specifically for snapcasters. But only when I have nothing to bring in I must say.
There was a big MKM open modern tournament yesterday (around 650 players), and there were two DSJ decks in top 8, including one in the finals. The list from finals is stocked with removals and he plays only 16 lands. Interested in others thoughts,I really think that's low, but looking at his list he only has 2 spells with cmc 3. How playable do you guys think our deck is with 16 lands? I doubt it was pure luck that got him to finals after 10 rounds of swiss.
There was a big MKM open modern tournament yesterday (around 650 players), and there were two DSJ decks in top 8, including one in the finals. The list from finals is stocked with removals and he plays only 16 lands. Interested in others thoughts,I really think that's low, but looking at his list he only has 2 spells with cmc 3. How playable do you guys think our deck is with 16 lands? I doubt it was pure luck that got him to finals after 10 rounds of swiss.
Yeah, idk about dropping to 16 lands, but it would make flooding super rare. I wouldn't run a 4th color on 16 ever though. You could get away with a top of 3 being mostly 1 and 2 drops.
There was a big MKM open modern tournament yesterday (around 650 players), and there were two DSJ decks in top 8, including one in the finals. The list from finals is stocked with removals and he plays only 16 lands. Interested in others thoughts,I really think that's low, but looking at his list he only has 2 spells with cmc 3. How playable do you guys think our deck is with 16 lands? I doubt it was pure luck that got him to finals after 10 rounds of swiss.
More interested in the fact they're running a pair of Grim Flayer.
16 lands seems fine without the white splash and the 4cmc Ranger of Eos (as people have said they often side out the 18th land on the draw).
Edit - On the dredge discussion, I've been enjoying Grafdigger's Cage both against dredge and the copious quantities of CoCo in my meta.
Well cage is good but can be almost like a do nothing card as it doesn't prevent dredging and if they find the removal for it the whole qy is life again. I personally like permanent exiling in the form of spellbomb or leyline better here, but of course, cage is a good way to fight both CoCo and dredge decks with a single card for sure.
It probably isn't competitive, but what about trying Heart-Piercer Manticore as a finisher, sacrificing a Shadow that just attacked? It seems like it would usually end the game on the spot if played on t5 as long as the Shadow gets through on t4 and 5.
Then your opponent has spent 2 cards in his hand to take out 1 card in your hand (provided you only had one DS in hand). That's card disadvantage for him. So if you can get enough Tarmogoyfs, Lingering Souls, Grim Flayers, LotV etc. in play from that point, you might have a good chance to win. If you fear Surgical after side, it can be smart to have more threats and Traverse-targets in the sideboard, so you increase the chance opponent is just wasting cards with his surgicals while you keep finding new threats. Examples (depending on matchup): Scavenging Ooze, Renegade Rallier, Souls, Fulminator Mage. It can also be a good plan to have 1-2 Grim Flayers main if you're concerned about this.
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
Why you have zero chance after this? If I see my opponent Surgicaling my DS he just discarded, I would thank him for 2-for-1ing himself. I've said it before, if people bring in Surgicals against you, you can only thank them. Especially Junk vs. DSJ is such an attrition based matchup, I would never side in Surgicals here if I were the Junk player. Yeah, sometimes they get to extract your DS early on, but your still have Goyfs and Street Wraiths you can cast. Don't underestimate Wraiths here. They are a respectable threat against them. And most of the time, if they board in Surgicals against you, they will topdeck it later in the game where it is incredibly bad rather than have it in the right situation. ANd if they extract a nonsense card at this point because what else to do with it, then you can thank them again for thinning out your deck.
Thats the list Gerry Thomson tested in his video series. I personally think its worse than the white splash, due to its weakness in attrition/aggro based matchups, but you can run it if you are in a heavy Big Mana/Combo dominant meta.
Wrong threat I guess?
I have ran into a few situations where I have had a transverse, a few fetchlands (which I kept flooding on), and a DS in hand at 15 life. The graveyard had 3 types, artifact, sorcery, and land. Do you hold on a turn and focus on playing a 1/1 DS next turn, or play the DS automatically sending it to the graveyard to get delirium, and grab a Tarmogoyf?
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
That all makes sense now, but when half my threats are gone and the remaining half will just bump against his Goyfs or simply die to his 10+ Decay/Path/Push/Lili, it felt long over.
It depends on the matchup and how important it is to get a threat on the board. I am up against Abzan/another DS deck I would never do it, because here it depends on who has the most threats in the end. Against combo/big mana you could think about it.
I understand that this is quite biasing, but you have to think about this in a more general way. Situations like this won't happen every time, and more often you will have the advantage when someone sides in surgical agaisnt you. So I wouldn't worry about it.
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
As an aside, with decks that go wide being a weakness, as well as Dredge becoming popular again, is Jund charm not a decent sidebaord card? I haven't seen it run in any lists and I can't seem to understand why. I admit I'm on the newer side to shadow jund, so apologies if this has been discussed, but an extra grave hate card + instant speed pyro seem good to me. Only thing I can think of is that the colours are restrictive, but by my third land 99% of the time I have all three colours active. Thoughts?
There was a big MKM open modern tournament yesterday (around 650 players), and there were two DSJ decks in top 8, including one in the finals. The list from finals is stocked with removals and he plays only 16 lands. Interested in others thoughts,I really think that's low, but looking at his list he only has 2 spells with cmc 3. How playable do you guys think our deck is with 16 lands? I doubt it was pure luck that got him to finals after 10 rounds of swiss.
Forgot to paste the link:
http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-frankfurt-2017-modern/#top8decks
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
More interested in the fact they're running a pair of Grim Flayer.
16 lands seems fine without the white splash and the 4cmc Ranger of Eos (as people have said they often side out the 18th land on the draw).
Edit - On the dredge discussion, I've been enjoying Grafdigger's Cage both against dredge and the copious quantities of CoCo in my meta.
Legacy - LED Dredge, ANT & WDnT
UWGBant EldraziUWGDecided I don't like Todd Stevens decks.UBRGrixis ControlUBR
UUUAnd anything that plays 4x Cryptic CommandUUU
Thank you very much, appreciate it