Interesting, maybe two sin collectors could be good against blue decks. Sin collector feels very underpowered against decks like Jund and Junk though.
I ordered 4x Horizons in paper, waiting for MTGO to have the Iconic Masters as cheaper versions to save a little money
I don't know if Humans will stay tier 1 or on top for that long, but after playing with the deck in practice rooms on mtgo, it's definitely here to stay. This deck feels like a mish-mash of Merfolk and DnT. I have a feeling this deck will be like Merfolk were it will be a long time, safe tier 2 deck, it shouldn't be in the developing section long.
Kinda interesting to see where this deck will go since it's so early. It has a lot of potential since humans is such a huge tribe across all format, they see new printings all the time.
Interesting, maybe two sin collectors could be good against blue decks. Sin collector feels very underpowered against decks like Jund and Junk though.
I ordered 4x Horizons in paper, waiting for MTGO to have the Iconic Masters as cheaper versions to save a little money
I don't know if Humans will stay tier 1 or on top for that long, but after playing with the deck in practice rooms on mtgo, it's definitely here to stay. This deck feels like a mish-mash of Merfolk and DnT. I have a feeling this deck will be like Merfolk were it will be a long time, safe tier 2 deck, it shouldn't be in the developing section long.
Kinda interesting to see where this deck will go since it's so early. It has a lot of potential since humans is such a huge tribe across all format, they see new printings all the time.
Agreed sin collector is worse against junk and jund.
Thankfully, haven't seen either of those decks in quite a while. Have you? I'm both a little sad and incredibly thankful when jund isn't around if I'm honest haha. It was always the gatekeeper, trashing fringe decks and focusing the format down to a select few "good" decks.
With those sorts of durdly midrange decks on the down-low and the format wide open, humans is in a great spot. It's fast enough to punish untuned decks and disruptive enough to deal with a broad spectrum of shenanigans that could get thrown at you.
I particularly like how this deck does well against combo (broadly speaking). That goes a long way in its favour. Merfolk is the anti creature fish deck (unblockable etc) and humans is the anti combo fish deck. Slivers is kinda the anti-removal fish deck? I dunno it just feels worse at this point.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Ive been brewing with this deck for a few weeks and I thought I would share some of my experiences. I would really prefer the deck become a bit faster but without a 3rd lord the deck just cant get there.
I also tried to replace meddling mage with a few cards. Kari Zev, Skyship raider was good but it made me feel like I had too many legendary creatures and wasn't able to get in enough. Hamlet captain and Voltaic Brawler were good but the deck isn't fast enough to give up the disruption from meddling mage. I also tried experiment one instead of noble hierarch but it never became bigger than a 3/3 so it felt lack luster compared to t2 mantis rider.
One thing that did work well is Magus of the Moon in the SB. It may sound wierd but with the number of times that this deck can empty its hand by turn three playing a blood moon can be fairly one sided as we are out of spells to cast and who fetches basics vs a 5 color deck?
To continue the discussion about xathrid vs selfless: both have their positives and negatives but I think we actually want vial on 3 more than 2. Our 3 drops like reflector mage, big thalia and izzet staticaster have much bigger impact off aether than our 2 drops. for 2 drops vial just cheats on mana but for 3 drops it gets us value. Also getting 3 lands vs 2 is a real concern especially with canopy. (note I play with 19 lands)
I disagree about the vial statement. Pre-board you almost never want to tick vial up to 3 unless you have 2+ Mantis Rider in your hand and the game plays out in a way where you can play both in the same turn. The vast majority of the deck is built around 2 drops and vialing in a lord during combat has won me so many games. Vialing in Bob or a Mayor if they haven't played anything by their end step is gas. Freebooter on draw step is back breaking. Mid to late game you have such a higher chance of drawing a useful and tricky 2 drop rather than a 3 drop that does something. Also, vialing in Reflector Mage on their turn doesn't work all that well unless you are able to kill them right away. Post-board I definitely tick vial up to 3 more as Sin Collector, Xanthrid Necro, Tracker, and Anafenza all give you reasons to.
I strongly believe that 4 Horizon Canopys is correct.
You only lose 1 green source and 1 blue source if you run the full 4 Horizon Canopy (with 2 Seachrome Coast). That's only a couple of percentage points if you look at hypergeometric calculator. Still very high chance of having the correct mana to play your spells.
You're going to lose a lot more games from flooding out on lands.
edit: At the very least, it is a close call. I mulligan aggressively to strong hands and would prefer to be able to cycle lands later in the game.
Bro, this is non game related but I need to put this out there
You really look like me. Like, we literally have the exact same hair when I let my bangs grow out, and it curves and swoops to the side. The glasses and nose don't help. I had to give the computer to my wife to ask her if this looked like me, and she said, "this isn't you?"
I'm sure if the quality was higher or we met face to face we'd see a lot of differences, I was slimmer in the Army.
I think I see the merit to 4x Canopies. I'm going to play 4x copies on Monday if it comes like the packaging says it will
I'd be cautious about 4x main deck Bobs and 4x Canopies, you're really asking to lose to burn and very aggressive decks.
Mana wise, the Canopies don't seem that sub optimal.
I think a lot of players in this thread are sleeping on the meta, I predicted Jund was looking really good and a week later I read all these articles and listened to podcasts agreeing. Fair decks are going to come back and the meta's going to shift, until another shift comes around to deal with the fair decks
I haven't been an active follower of this thread, but I've been playing a lot with this deck and wanted to share my thoughts with ya'll. Here's a few links to some posts and videos I've done: Primer, Sideboard Guide, video of me playing through a league.
I've had some good results with the deck, I won the SCG DC Classic, went 6-2 at my Regionals, and went 8-2 in this last weekend's MTGO PTQ, losing to Dredge in the quarters. I've also played about 30 leagues with the deck too.
I enjoyed your primer on the deck. Thanks for writing that up.
Quick questions: you listed Jund an Junk as "Close" matchups. Does it follow that a categorically similar, albeit fringe Midrange deck like B/W Tokens would also fall in the "Close" category due to the fact that they all run similar numbers of disruption and removal spells? I'm not sure what would be more difficult for 5C Humans to deal with: a large number of flying creatures (potentially also with vigilance and lifelink), or a smaller number of high p/t creatures backed by the threat of Abrupt Decay to shut down Vials.
I think a lot of players in this thread are sleeping on the meta
In feel I'm in this category. I've been switching Coco and Vial lately and didn't pay much attention on an eventual meta shift. I'm still toying with both decks to figure out MU differences but I play with a wide abstract meta in mind. I consider UWx being the control decks to beat, but BGx may come back as you're stating. And like, I haven't tested Abzan in a very long time. In my experience Abzan Liege was pretty hard, and Lingering Souls overall annoying pre-SB.
a large number of flying creatures (potentially also with vigilance and lifelink), or a smaller number of high p/t creatures backed by the threat of Abrupt Decay to shut down Vials.
Overall, a stall board is annoying to fight once the opponent has bigger flyers than us. It's our only way to get through. Mirran Crusader is a good call in the Gx MUs. I remember I lost several times because I was unable to race a Gavony Township on board, so I assume a million pumped flying tokens are probably impossible to race at some point, the same way Affinity sometimes overwhelm the board before we stabilize. It's surely easier to Reflector Mage a Tarmogoyf and grind with a single Mantis.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Nice to chat with my Vesuvan Doppelganger! Or maybe I'm your Vesuvan Doppelganger. Either way...
@ChainVeil
Tokens doesn't run as much disruption as Jund. 4 Path to Exile, 2 Collective Brutality (which isn't especially goods vs. Humans), and 4 Thoughtseize (at least according to some recent lists I just found) vs. 4 Fatal Push, 3 Terminate, 1-2 Lightning Bolt, 1-2 Abrupt Decay, 2 Kolaghan's Command, 7 IOK/Thoughtseize, 4 LOTV.
Tokens needs to get an Intangible Virtue or two down to have a chance. The thing is, even if you have 4 2/2 Vigilance fliers, it's not too hard for Humans to make a 9/9 Champion of the Parish, or a 4/4 Mantis Rider. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben can really slow Tokens down too.
That said, I haven't extensively tested the matchup. BW Tokens not especially popular these days.
The most problematic card in Jund is Dark Confidant. If they can get that down on turn 2 on the play, Humans can be in trouble, since they don't have any creature interaction until Reflector Mage, and letting Jund draw a bunch of removal spells is going to be lights out.
Just got back from the NJ RPTQ. Went 5-2, losing to Dredge and Jund (both somewhat close; Dredge cast 2 Nature's Claim on my 2 Cages) and beating Abzan Company, UWR Queller, UR Breach, Affinity and UW Control.
2 Grafdigger's Cages over-performed, pretty much were key to beating UWR and Abzan Company, and almost got there versus Dredge.
4 Horizon Canopy, 2 Seachrome Coast, 3 Mayor of Avabruck, 1 Dark Confidant, 1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar, the rest was stock. Sideboard was 2 Grafdigger's Cage, 2 Vithian Renegades (was only going to be 1 but switched last minute to get the extra oomph versus Affinity), 2 Izzet Staticaster, 2 Dismember, 3 Dark Confidant, 2 Mirran Crusader, 1 Ethersworn Canonist, 1 Sin Collector.
Had two friends playing very similar lists this weekend, one went 9-5 in the Baltimore Team Open and the other went 5-2 at the same RPTQ I was at. Hunter Nance apparently also top 8ed the Raleigh RPTQ with Humans. Deck is good even when people are ready for it.
Tokens doesn't run as much disruption as Jund. 4 Path to Exile, 2 Collective Brutality (which isn't especially goods vs. Humans), and 4 Thoughtseize (at least according to some recent lists I just found) vs. 4 Fatal Push, 3 Terminate, 1-2 Lightning Bolt, 1-2 Abrupt Decay, 2 Kolaghan's Command, 7 IOK/Thoughtseize, 4 LOTV.
Tokens needs to get an Intangible Virtue or two down to have a chance. The thing is, even if you have 4 2/2 Vigilance fliers, it's not too hard for Humans to make a 9/9 Champion of the Parish, or a 4/4 Mantis Rider. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben can really slow Tokens down too.
That said, I haven't extensively tested the matchup.
I'm curious to hear your thoughts given some more information on the subject. This topic is of particularly relevant consideration for me given that I'm at the opposite side of the table with several people in my local meta compiling 5C Humans decks that I'm going to be playing against in the near future.
Jund definitely packs more spot removal versitility than any other archetype, but the more competitive B/W Tokens builds have actually shifted far enough towards the control end of the Midrange spectrum to match the disruptive potential of GBx decks. I'll pick a couple of lists that I know have performed well in recent PPTQ/IQ events as examples:
diateone's deck runs 8 hand disruption spells split as 4/2/2 IoK/Thoughtseize/CB, 9 kill spells split as 4/3/2 Path/Push/Finish, and two Liliana of the Veil. DHamlin's build runs 8 discard spells in a 3/4/1 IoK/Thoughtseize/CB split, 12 spot removal options (4/4/4 Path/Push/Finish), and one Liliana.
So for comparison's sake, let's say that you're playing against an amount of disruption and removal roughly comparable to Abzan, with the notable difference that you don't have to worry about Abrupt Decay targeting your Vials.
You raise a good point that Thalia presents a significant problem for Tokens, and she is likely going to have crosshairs painted on her the moment she hits the battlefield. That being said, Tokens is loaded with its fair share of silver bullets for the matchup, like Vault of the Archangel. Let me know if you have any additions to your earlier assessment, and again, your feedback is appreciated
I can echo your results empy, Grafdigger has been nothing less than an equalizer against Company and Jeskai decks. It’s the sideboard bullet that previous Humans Company decks needed but couldn’t run due to its symmetrical effect, and the vial version can play it free.
On a side note, have you played around with Kambal yet? Theoretically it could help hedge against burn, storm, and even spell-based control decks. One spicy tech I’ve been mainboarding is 2 [Grand Abolisher] and 3 [Dark Confidant] in my control and Merfolk heavy LGS meta. Abolisher is at worst a bear that pumps your Lieutenants/Champs, and at best is a pseudo-Voice that turns off Counterspells and hinders Snapcaster + Cryptic decks.
I cut a copy of Meddling Mage and all the Mayors for them. It’s completely a meta call, I’ll probably add Mayors back in when going to a GP in the future
Match 1, destroyed BW Tokens pretty badly. Mantis traded with a ton of tokens. Just went too wide and too big. Reflector mage on his Brimaz was brutal. Game 2 Thalia Thraben was devastating. Meddling mage for 2 spectral processions he had in hand.
Match 2 absolutely destroyed by burn. This guy has been drawing like a god the two times I played him. Him drawing 3 Eidolons was annoying. Game 2 he ran me over with swiftspear, bolt, rift, searing blaze. What exactly am I looking for here in my opening? I definitely was smooshed.
Math 3 Affinity. He crushes me game 1. Game 2 I tempo him out. Game 3 I'm swinging with champion of the parish for 5 by turn 2. Reflector mage was good all day here
Match 4 Blue Tron, game 1 he topdecks a platinum angel close to death which was frustrating. He kills me in time, my next card was reflector mage
Game 2 I run him over, cavern makes this deck so bad. I reflector mage his Wurmcoil and swing for lethal. Game 3 I keep a very so so hand, thalia is brutal against him. I vithian his map when he tapped out. He plays wurmcoil, I topdeck reflector mage and induce a lot of salt, he was really frustrated
Thoughts:
Big Thalia is kinda underwhelming. I was never really blown away by her, and I really dislike her when I'm on the draw.
Reflector mage is such a tempo blowout in this deck, and just makes champions and thalia LT's better. I think 4x in the mainboard seems right
Avrabuck is needed, but I was never that excited to see him.
4x Horizon Canopies were gas. They dug me out of very underwhelming draws and hands when I needed pressure.
Mana was smooth, I only had issues in 1 game all night when I didn't have a red source for Mantis rider and drawing 3 of them against tokens. Doesn't matter since I ran him over.
I want to play dark confidant, but sometimes I just wanted to put the medal to the pedal with champions
First time I gave my Abzan Humans deck a go at FNM level last friday. I'd like to report here and hear what you guys think.
Went with a friend to another town for a new experience, probably not the best moment to try out something new. I usually play Bushwhacker Zoo or Classic Knightfall @ FNM with great success, but seriously wanted to know how my Humans brew would cope.
It was less crowded than usual, one of the locals said. Vibe was good and I was feeling confident.
First match, Grixis Control
Game 1: He mulls to 5 and I keep my first (good) hand. T1 CoP, T2 Freebooter, T3 Crusader met Push, Bolt, Snap-Bolt. He follows with Vendillion Clique taking a Threat, which I path after a few swings. The game gets grindy, but his tempo and removal plays get him there.
Game 2: I board in Rest in Peace and Sin Collector. First big mistake here. I Fire off with T1 Thoughtseize and see lands, bolt, push and Mystical Teachings. I take Bolt. T2 CoP + Hiërarch followed by T3 COCO which gets countered by mana leak. Game get's grindy again and I get him to 3 Life (while i'm at 14) Things look good until he plays Torrential Gearhulk. Game ends after 3 swings and a few removal spells. 0-1
Second Match, Jeskai Tempo (Geist).
Forgot most details about this game, but played very sloppy. Played CoCo instead of double Freebooter Game 1. Won game 2 and made a mistake in the 3rd game. Kitesail Freebooter saw Path To Exile and Supreme Verdict I choose Path, thinking I could come back from the verdict after some Mirran Crusader swings. Coco gets Spell Quellered bypassing Cavern of Souls And I never draw more gas. GG. 0-2 Does not look good.
Fourth Match, Tooth and Nail (My buddy), we both on have a 1-2 score
Game 1: Killing his ramp and nabbing his big spells.
Game 2: He gets to the desired 9 mana, but never draws Tooth and Nail I have the right answers for his threats. 2-2
In a new shop with unexpected meta, I made some bad calls during the games which could potentially have changed the outcome of some games. Bad draws and never seeing Rest in peace against the Snapcaster decks was backbreaking.
In hindsight I should dare to mulligan more aggressively. I kept every hand which was good in isolation, but two of my biggest mistakes were: Not boarding in Fiendslayer Paladin which would have been impossible to remove for the Grixis player and playing a very very sloppy game against Jeskai.
I upped my game and the other two games felt very good. The deck felt solid and the mana was relatively pain-free.
I had a blast because the setting and vibe were great. Met some nice guys and had fun playing the game. Vial 5c Humans and my Grixis Control opponent went head to head in the final round and they decided to draw. They both topped the list.
I'm not sure how that list would play out vs. Humans. Probably closer than some of these Tokens lists, but getting card advantage from Dark Confidant or sweepers like EE or Damnation is a big part of how Jund/Junk beat Humans. Zealous Persecution could go a long way here if you're able to snipe Dark Confidants, Noble Hierarchs, Thalias, etc.
Vault of the Archangel might just be KO vs Humans if you have time to activate it.
@Edelweiss
I've tried Kambal a little bit but it's worse than Canonist versus Storm just because it's 3 mana instead of 2. Kambal is certainly better vs. Burn, where it is quite great (not dying to Grim Lavamancer is very nice). Kambal doesn't seem great in a lot of other matchups. I don't think he is better than your other cards like Meddling Mage or Kitesail Freebooter vs. control decks.
@Spsiegel1987
Nice, these have been my results as well. I think Big Thalia could be replaced with something else.
@SmauG
Thanks for the report, interesting changes to the Humans list. I don't think I'd play Thoughtseize and I probably want to play more creatures for Collected Company, but that's just me.
Hey guys,
I've been a lurker on this thread for quite a while now, and the new Ixalan cards that have pushed humans into the competitive meta have got me pumped! I've been running a coco humans deck, and have tried to merge it into the new decklist. I see a lot of debate here on whether to run Coco or aether vial, but it seems that the vial list is more popular. Here is my current decklist (pardon if the list isn't posted properly):
@smaug
I'm going to criticise your deck choice in the following paragraphs. Please don't take this the wrong way, every decklist has its faults so I'm hoping this can be a nucleus for discussion and also for improvement. Hope you don't mind!
Here we go:
I feel like the hybrid list you're running makes the "humans" part of the deck less worthwhile. You're essentially building it like an abzan midrange deck but then relying on smaller, synergy-reliant creatures to get you there (instead of bigger less synergistic creatures like goyf, angler and tasigur). Also, maybe it's just me but your creature count for coco seems a little on the low side. This could make you 'whiff' more than you'd really want or expect.
The more control-ish elements you include, the more you detract from the tempo/fish strategy that a tribe like humans invokes. I can see you've already had to drop thalia 1.0 from your list because of the number of noncreature spells you're running. She's a fairly important piece of the puzzle.
The 'abzan midrange' element of your deck is also rather half-baked because you've included a few of the core elements but not enough of them to actually execute the midrange gameplan.
I can also see from your breakdown of matches (thanks for that it's a really nice thing to do and must have taken a while) that you may be adopting the wrong gameplan against certain matchups. I'll explain;
- Against grindy decks you seem to be trying to out-grind them. Trading 1-for-1s against grixis for example is a losing strategy, almost no matter what deck you're playing. Instead you need to be pushing the 'hatebears' strategy of blanking removal and playing disruptive threats to make the grixis player less able to interact. Without thalia or meddling mage, your creatures are essentially just vanilla beaters waiting to be picked off. In abzan midrange (which you're emulating) that can work because you have inbuilt card advantage from manlands, 2-for-1s and a critical mass of cards that win the game by themselves. None of that here. Freebooter helps of course but it's just part of the puzzle, not a stopgap.
Essentially I'm saying that you've built a deck of two halves, and those halves probably don't go together. There is probably a world where you could (like affinity sometimes does) side in a couple thoughtseize/inquisition from the board, maybe, against fragile combo decks. Mainboard though doesn't make a lot of sense and you've had to drop some of the most important creatures in the deck in order to accommodate those spells.
Mirran crusader: was completely unplayable until fatal push warped the format and still now it's probably just a 1-of, ideally sideboard. Obviously it has some amazing matchups but this card is ideally a breakout "I win" card for those specific matchups, not a full-4 maindeck extravaganza. It's a decent beater but expensive for what it does and bolt is *still* the most played removal spell, followed by path. That means your crusader trades down into removal nearly all the time.
Apologies for the brutal roasting haha nah kidding. I mean that's a lot of criticism at once. I hope you consider it to be a fair criticism though. Let me know what you think.
Thank you very much for your insight. Much appreciated! Don't worry about the critical tone, this is why I asked in the first place, so thank you for your contribution.
I do think you're spot on. I like to play the disruptive style of play, and with humans it has proven to be worthwile against most of my friends modern decks at the kitchen table. I allready play the tempo/combo game with Knightfall and aggro with Zoo so I wanted something different. Also, I wanted to play something different from the rest of the field and find out how my brew would coope. I've been on humans for some time (AER Standard) and love how it allows for "brewing" with every new set. Love that aspect of Magic.
The next best thing for me at this moment is go back to BantB like I did before I added the Inquisitions and Thoughtseizes, trading them for a playset of Reflector Mage and adding Meddling Mage to the sideboard. The mana base can be fixed without much trouble focussing on GW for spells and adding Unclaimed Territory. Though I feel this particular move wont shore up te control/combo matchup. I'd go as far and say it probably makes it worse. Also, Blood Moon and other mana denial which is prevalent in my local meta.
I'm not on the Vial plan yet, but I can see it's potential and I know for a fact, Thalia v1 is a awesome magic card! I use her in another deck from the board to great succes!
I allready own most pieces of the Vial lists except Aether Vial but I'm not really ready to drop the path's yet I guess
Regarding Mirran Crusader
This is a (local)Meta call for me, but probably not the best in a wide spread field. What would you guys reccomend as curve topper next to Thalia and Anafenza? Aside from Mantis Rider.
I ordered 4x Horizons in paper, waiting for MTGO to have the Iconic Masters as cheaper versions to save a little money
I don't know if Humans will stay tier 1 or on top for that long, but after playing with the deck in practice rooms on mtgo, it's definitely here to stay. This deck feels like a mish-mash of Merfolk and DnT. I have a feeling this deck will be like Merfolk were it will be a long time, safe tier 2 deck, it shouldn't be in the developing section long.
Kinda interesting to see where this deck will go since it's so early. It has a lot of potential since humans is such a huge tribe across all format, they see new printings all the time.
Agreed sin collector is worse against junk and jund.
Thankfully, haven't seen either of those decks in quite a while. Have you? I'm both a little sad and incredibly thankful when jund isn't around if I'm honest haha. It was always the gatekeeper, trashing fringe decks and focusing the format down to a select few "good" decks.
With those sorts of durdly midrange decks on the down-low and the format wide open, humans is in a great spot. It's fast enough to punish untuned decks and disruptive enough to deal with a broad spectrum of shenanigans that could get thrown at you.
I particularly like how this deck does well against combo (broadly speaking). That goes a long way in its favour. Merfolk is the anti creature fish deck (unblockable etc) and humans is the anti combo fish deck. Slivers is kinda the anti-removal fish deck? I dunno it just feels worse at this point.
I disagree about the vial statement. Pre-board you almost never want to tick vial up to 3 unless you have 2+ Mantis Rider in your hand and the game plays out in a way where you can play both in the same turn. The vast majority of the deck is built around 2 drops and vialing in a lord during combat has won me so many games. Vialing in Bob or a Mayor if they haven't played anything by their end step is gas. Freebooter on draw step is back breaking. Mid to late game you have such a higher chance of drawing a useful and tricky 2 drop rather than a 3 drop that does something. Also, vialing in Reflector Mage on their turn doesn't work all that well unless you are able to kill them right away. Post-board I definitely tick vial up to 3 more as Sin Collector, Xanthrid Necro, Tracker, and Anafenza all give you reasons to.
You only lose 1 green source and 1 blue source if you run the full 4 Horizon Canopy (with 2 Seachrome Coast). That's only a couple of percentage points if you look at hypergeometric calculator. Still very high chance of having the correct mana to play your spells.
You're going to lose a lot more games from flooding out on lands.
edit: At the very least, it is a close call. I mulligan aggressively to strong hands and would prefer to be able to cycle lands later in the game.
You really look like me. Like, we literally have the exact same hair when I let my bangs grow out, and it curves and swoops to the side. The glasses and nose don't help. I had to give the computer to my wife to ask her if this looked like me, and she said, "this isn't you?"
I'm sure if the quality was higher or we met face to face we'd see a lot of differences, I was slimmer in the Army.
Anyway, really needed to share that.
I'd be cautious about 4x main deck Bobs and 4x Canopies, you're really asking to lose to burn and very aggressive decks.
Mana wise, the Canopies don't seem that sub optimal.
I think a lot of players in this thread are sleeping on the meta, I predicted Jund was looking really good and a week later I read all these articles and listened to podcasts agreeing. Fair decks are going to come back and the meta's going to shift, until another shift comes around to deal with the fair decks
I enjoyed your primer on the deck. Thanks for writing that up.
Quick questions: you listed Jund an Junk as "Close" matchups. Does it follow that a categorically similar, albeit fringe Midrange deck like B/W Tokens would also fall in the "Close" category due to the fact that they all run similar numbers of disruption and removal spells? I'm not sure what would be more difficult for 5C Humans to deal with: a large number of flying creatures (potentially also with vigilance and lifelink), or a smaller number of high p/t creatures backed by the threat of Abrupt Decay to shut down Vials.
Thanks in advance for your input!
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
In feel I'm in this category. I've been switching Coco and Vial lately and didn't pay much attention on an eventual meta shift. I'm still toying with both decks to figure out MU differences but I play with a wide abstract meta in mind. I consider UWx being the control decks to beat, but BGx may come back as you're stating. And like, I haven't tested Abzan in a very long time. In my experience Abzan Liege was pretty hard, and Lingering Souls overall annoying pre-SB.
Overall, a stall board is annoying to fight once the opponent has bigger flyers than us. It's our only way to get through. Mirran Crusader is a good call in the Gx MUs. I remember I lost several times because I was unable to race a Gavony Township on board, so I assume a million pumped flying tokens are probably impossible to race at some point, the same way Affinity sometimes overwhelm the board before we stabilize. It's surely easier to Reflector Mage a Tarmogoyf and grind with a single Mantis.
Nice to chat with my Vesuvan Doppelganger! Or maybe I'm your Vesuvan Doppelganger. Either way...
@ChainVeil
Tokens doesn't run as much disruption as Jund. 4 Path to Exile, 2 Collective Brutality (which isn't especially goods vs. Humans), and 4 Thoughtseize (at least according to some recent lists I just found) vs. 4 Fatal Push, 3 Terminate, 1-2 Lightning Bolt, 1-2 Abrupt Decay, 2 Kolaghan's Command, 7 IOK/Thoughtseize, 4 LOTV.
Tokens needs to get an Intangible Virtue or two down to have a chance. The thing is, even if you have 4 2/2 Vigilance fliers, it's not too hard for Humans to make a 9/9 Champion of the Parish, or a 4/4 Mantis Rider. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben can really slow Tokens down too.
That said, I haven't extensively tested the matchup. BW Tokens not especially popular these days.
The most problematic card in Jund is Dark Confidant. If they can get that down on turn 2 on the play, Humans can be in trouble, since they don't have any creature interaction until Reflector Mage, and letting Jund draw a bunch of removal spells is going to be lights out.
2 Grafdigger's Cages over-performed, pretty much were key to beating UWR and Abzan Company, and almost got there versus Dredge.
4 Horizon Canopy, 2 Seachrome Coast, 3 Mayor of Avabruck, 1 Dark Confidant, 1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar, the rest was stock. Sideboard was 2 Grafdigger's Cage, 2 Vithian Renegades (was only going to be 1 but switched last minute to get the extra oomph versus Affinity), 2 Izzet Staticaster, 2 Dismember, 3 Dark Confidant, 2 Mirran Crusader, 1 Ethersworn Canonist, 1 Sin Collector.
Had two friends playing very similar lists this weekend, one went 9-5 in the Baltimore Team Open and the other went 5-2 at the same RPTQ I was at. Hunter Nance apparently also top 8ed the Raleigh RPTQ with Humans. Deck is good even when people are ready for it.
I'm curious to hear your thoughts given some more information on the subject. This topic is of particularly relevant consideration for me given that I'm at the opposite side of the table with several people in my local meta compiling 5C Humans decks that I'm going to be playing against in the near future.
Jund definitely packs more spot removal versitility than any other archetype, but the more competitive B/W Tokens builds have actually shifted far enough towards the control end of the Midrange spectrum to match the disruptive potential of GBx decks. I'll pick a couple of lists that I know have performed well in recent PPTQ/IQ events as examples:
diateone's deck runs 8 hand disruption spells split as 4/2/2 IoK/Thoughtseize/CB, 9 kill spells split as 4/3/2 Path/Push/Finish, and two Liliana of the Veil. DHamlin's build runs 8 discard spells in a 3/4/1 IoK/Thoughtseize/CB split, 12 spot removal options (4/4/4 Path/Push/Finish), and one Liliana.
So for comparison's sake, let's say that you're playing against an amount of disruption and removal roughly comparable to Abzan, with the notable difference that you don't have to worry about Abrupt Decay targeting your Vials.
You raise a good point that Thalia presents a significant problem for Tokens, and she is likely going to have crosshairs painted on her the moment she hits the battlefield. That being said, Tokens is loaded with its fair share of silver bullets for the matchup, like Vault of the Archangel. Let me know if you have any additions to your earlier assessment, and again, your feedback is appreciated
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
On a side note, have you played around with Kambal yet? Theoretically it could help hedge against burn, storm, and even spell-based control decks. One spicy tech I’ve been mainboarding is 2 [Grand Abolisher] and 3 [Dark Confidant] in my control and Merfolk heavy LGS meta. Abolisher is at worst a bear that pumps your Lieutenants/Champs, and at best is a pseudo-Voice that turns off Counterspells and hinders Snapcaster + Cryptic decks.
Match 1, destroyed BW Tokens pretty badly. Mantis traded with a ton of tokens. Just went too wide and too big. Reflector mage on his Brimaz was brutal. Game 2 Thalia Thraben was devastating. Meddling mage for 2 spectral processions he had in hand.
Match 2 absolutely destroyed by burn. This guy has been drawing like a god the two times I played him. Him drawing 3 Eidolons was annoying. Game 2 he ran me over with swiftspear, bolt, rift, searing blaze. What exactly am I looking for here in my opening? I definitely was smooshed.
Math 3 Affinity. He crushes me game 1. Game 2 I tempo him out. Game 3 I'm swinging with champion of the parish for 5 by turn 2. Reflector mage was good all day here
Match 4 Blue Tron, game 1 he topdecks a platinum angel close to death which was frustrating. He kills me in time, my next card was reflector mage
Game 2 I run him over, cavern makes this deck so bad. I reflector mage his Wurmcoil and swing for lethal. Game 3 I keep a very so so hand, thalia is brutal against him. I vithian his map when he tapped out. He plays wurmcoil, I topdeck reflector mage and induce a lot of salt, he was really frustrated
Thoughts:
Big Thalia is kinda underwhelming. I was never really blown away by her, and I really dislike her when I'm on the draw.
Reflector mage is such a tempo blowout in this deck, and just makes champions and thalia LT's better. I think 4x in the mainboard seems right
Avrabuck is needed, but I was never that excited to see him.
4x Horizon Canopies were gas. They dug me out of very underwhelming draws and hands when I needed pressure.
Mana was smooth, I only had issues in 1 game all night when I didn't have a red source for Mantis rider and drawing 3 of them against tokens. Doesn't matter since I ran him over.
I want to play dark confidant, but sometimes I just wanted to put the medal to the pedal with champions
2x Dismembers and 2x cages is the right call.
Deck is very solid.
Went with a friend to another town for a new experience, probably not the best moment to try out something new. I usually play Bushwhacker Zoo or Classic Knightfall @ FNM with great success, but seriously wanted to know how my Humans brew would cope.
It was less crowded than usual, one of the locals said. Vibe was good and I was feeling confident.
First match, Grixis Control
Game 1: He mulls to 5 and I keep my first (good) hand. T1 CoP, T2 Freebooter, T3 Crusader met Push, Bolt, Snap-Bolt. He follows with Vendillion Clique taking a Threat, which I path after a few swings. The game gets grindy, but his tempo and removal plays get him there.
Game 2: I board in Rest in Peace and Sin Collector. First big mistake here. I Fire off with T1 Thoughtseize and see lands, bolt, push and Mystical Teachings. I take Bolt. T2 CoP + Hiërarch followed by T3 COCO which gets countered by mana leak. Game get's grindy again and I get him to 3 Life (while i'm at 14) Things look good until he plays Torrential Gearhulk. Game ends after 3 swings and a few removal spells. 0-1
Second Match, Jeskai Tempo (Geist).
Forgot most details about this game, but played very sloppy. Played CoCo instead of double Freebooter Game 1. Won game 2 and made a mistake in the 3rd game. Kitesail Freebooter saw Path To Exile and Supreme Verdict I choose Path, thinking I could come back from the verdict after some Mirran Crusader swings. Coco gets Spell Quellered bypassing Cavern of Souls And I never draw more gas. GG. 0-2 Does not look good.
Third Match, Mono G Stompy.
Game 1: I take all his pump spells and beat him with Thalia, Heretic Cathar and Anafenza, The Foremost. Made a mistake by attacking into a Avatar of the Resolute with freebooter. But I get there.
Game 2: He has dismember for my creatures and goes wider which is enough.
Game 3: Hard lock with Mirran Crusader & Worship 1-2
Fourth Match, Tooth and Nail (My buddy), we both on have a 1-2 score
Game 1: Killing his ramp and nabbing his big spells.
Game 2: He gets to the desired 9 mana, but never draws Tooth and Nail I have the right answers for his threats. 2-2
My decklist this weekend
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Blooming Marsh
1 Concealed Courtyard
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Gavony Township
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Kitesail Freebooter
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Mirran Crusader
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
Spells
4 Path to Exile
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Collected Company
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
1 War Priest of Thune
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Sin Collector
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Fiendslayer Paladin
1 Xathrid Necromancer
1 Worship
In a new shop with unexpected meta, I made some bad calls during the games which could potentially have changed the outcome of some games. Bad draws and never seeing Rest in peace against the Snapcaster decks was backbreaking.
In hindsight I should dare to mulligan more aggressively. I kept every hand which was good in isolation, but two of my biggest mistakes were: Not boarding in Fiendslayer Paladin which would have been impossible to remove for the Grixis player and playing a very very sloppy game against Jeskai.
I upped my game and the other two games felt very good. The deck felt solid and the mana was relatively pain-free.
I had a blast because the setting and vibe were great. Met some nice guys and had fun playing the game. Vial 5c Humans and my Grixis Control opponent went head to head in the final round and they decided to draw. They both topped the list.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
I'm not sure how that list would play out vs. Humans. Probably closer than some of these Tokens lists, but getting card advantage from Dark Confidant or sweepers like EE or Damnation is a big part of how Jund/Junk beat Humans. Zealous Persecution could go a long way here if you're able to snipe Dark Confidants, Noble Hierarchs, Thalias, etc.
Vault of the Archangel might just be KO vs Humans if you have time to activate it.
@Edelweiss
I've tried Kambal a little bit but it's worse than Canonist versus Storm just because it's 3 mana instead of 2. Kambal is certainly better vs. Burn, where it is quite great (not dying to Grim Lavamancer is very nice). Kambal doesn't seem great in a lot of other matchups. I don't think he is better than your other cards like Meddling Mage or Kitesail Freebooter vs. control decks.
@Spsiegel1987
Nice, these have been my results as well. I think Big Thalia could be replaced with something else.
@SmauG
Thanks for the report, interesting changes to the Humans list. I don't think I'd play Thoughtseize and I probably want to play more creatures for Collected Company, but that's just me.
I've been a lurker on this thread for quite a while now, and the new Ixalan cards that have pushed humans into the competitive meta have got me pumped! I've been running a coco humans deck, and have tried to merge it into the new decklist. I see a lot of debate here on whether to run Coco or aether vial, but it seems that the vial list is more popular. Here is my current decklist (pardon if the list isn't posted properly):
4x Champion of the Parish
4x Kitesail Freebooter
4x Mantis Rider
3x Mayor of Avabruck
4x Meddling Mage
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Reflector Mage
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
4x Cavern of Souls
2x City of Brass
2x Hallowed Fountain
1x Plains
2x Reflecting Pool
2x Temple Garden
4x Unclaimed Territory
3x Windswept Heath
4x Path to Exile
2x Izzet Staticaster
1x Reflector Mage
2x Sin Collector
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2x Vithian Renegades
2x Xathrid Necromancer
Does anyone have any suggestions on how to make this work? Any creatures i should/shouldn't be running. Also does my mana base look viable?
I'm going to criticise your deck choice in the following paragraphs. Please don't take this the wrong way, every decklist has its faults so I'm hoping this can be a nucleus for discussion and also for improvement. Hope you don't mind!
Here we go:
I feel like the hybrid list you're running makes the "humans" part of the deck less worthwhile. You're essentially building it like an abzan midrange deck but then relying on smaller, synergy-reliant creatures to get you there (instead of bigger less synergistic creatures like goyf, angler and tasigur). Also, maybe it's just me but your creature count for coco seems a little on the low side. This could make you 'whiff' more than you'd really want or expect.
The more control-ish elements you include, the more you detract from the tempo/fish strategy that a tribe like humans invokes. I can see you've already had to drop thalia 1.0 from your list because of the number of noncreature spells you're running. She's a fairly important piece of the puzzle.
The 'abzan midrange' element of your deck is also rather half-baked because you've included a few of the core elements but not enough of them to actually execute the midrange gameplan.
I can also see from your breakdown of matches (thanks for that it's a really nice thing to do and must have taken a while) that you may be adopting the wrong gameplan against certain matchups. I'll explain;
- Against grindy decks you seem to be trying to out-grind them. Trading 1-for-1s against grixis for example is a losing strategy, almost no matter what deck you're playing. Instead you need to be pushing the 'hatebears' strategy of blanking removal and playing disruptive threats to make the grixis player less able to interact. Without thalia or meddling mage, your creatures are essentially just vanilla beaters waiting to be picked off. In abzan midrange (which you're emulating) that can work because you have inbuilt card advantage from manlands, 2-for-1s and a critical mass of cards that win the game by themselves. None of that here. Freebooter helps of course but it's just part of the puzzle, not a stopgap.
Essentially I'm saying that you've built a deck of two halves, and those halves probably don't go together. There is probably a world where you could (like affinity sometimes does) side in a couple thoughtseize/inquisition from the board, maybe, against fragile combo decks. Mainboard though doesn't make a lot of sense and you've had to drop some of the most important creatures in the deck in order to accommodate those spells.
Mirran crusader: was completely unplayable until fatal push warped the format and still now it's probably just a 1-of, ideally sideboard. Obviously it has some amazing matchups but this card is ideally a breakout "I win" card for those specific matchups, not a full-4 maindeck extravaganza. It's a decent beater but expensive for what it does and bolt is *still* the most played removal spell, followed by path. That means your crusader trades down into removal nearly all the time.
Apologies for the brutal roasting haha nah kidding. I mean that's a lot of criticism at once. I hope you consider it to be a fair criticism though. Let me know what you think.
I do think you're spot on. I like to play the disruptive style of play, and with humans it has proven to be worthwile against most of my friends modern decks at the kitchen table. I allready play the tempo/combo game with Knightfall and aggro with Zoo so I wanted something different. Also, I wanted to play something different from the rest of the field and find out how my brew would coope. I've been on humans for some time (AER Standard) and love how it allows for "brewing" with every new set. Love that aspect of Magic.
The next best thing for me at this moment is go back to BantB like I did before I added the Inquisitions and Thoughtseizes, trading them for a playset of Reflector Mage and adding Meddling Mage to the sideboard. The mana base can be fixed without much trouble focussing on GW for spells and adding Unclaimed Territory. Though I feel this particular move wont shore up te control/combo matchup. I'd go as far and say it probably makes it worse. Also, Blood Moon and other mana denial which is prevalent in my local meta.
I'm not on the Vial plan yet, but I can see it's potential and I know for a fact, Thalia v1 is a awesome magic card! I use her in another deck from the board to great succes!
I allready own most pieces of the Vial lists except Aether Vial but I'm not really ready to drop the path's yet I guess
Regarding Mirran Crusader
This is a (local)Meta call for me, but probably not the best in a wide spread field. What would you guys reccomend as curve topper next to Thalia and Anafenza? Aside from Mantis Rider.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -